brodysZ28

I am finishing up replacing the oil pan in my 83 and need to figure out a new exhaust system since the new pan takes up space where the old system ran. The old system is hooker shorty 1 5/8 headers into a custom 2 ½ Y connected to a 3 ½ side exit dynomax race bullet. The car made 403hp 430tq with this combo. I am expecting a 20hp jump from 1 ¾ primary headers. I am running a tremec tko600 transmission, and a mechanical clutch setup. Cylinder heads are the Summit version Brodix IK200’s. They are straight plug heads, so I am worried about plug accessibility. Motor mounts are poly and 7 years old, seem pretty tight though. The car is stock height. I’ll be installing headers on the car and bringing it to Hartford Muffler and Brake in RI. I have heard good things about Rick there and he has and does a lot of Fbody work.

So header options:
Dyno Don – 1 ¾ primarys mid length headers. Lead time is a concern. I’ll have to find out exactly how long I’d wait. Pretty decent price.

Hooker – Seems like people run the Super Comps. Fitment problems but mostly seems due to motor mounts sagging?

Dougs – Same as Hooker?

Stainless Works – Very expensive. Not sure on fitment.

Ebay OBX – Great price, but a gamble on quality. I usually don’t end up on the good end of the stick in those deals.

Any other options? I’d like to hear some opinions on this. I feel the motor needs 1 ¾ for sure. Now, long tubes vs. mid length is a little less important, but I know long tubes will perform better. I’d like to squeeze as much power out of this thing as I can. So what would be your recommendation? I’ve been searching a ton, but any good links are welcomed.

brodysZ28

Reading more and more. I am very concerned with the Hooker 2210's and straight plugs. Looks like i'd either have to modify? the spark plug or modify the brand new header. Neither sound like an awesome idea. Any recommendations on straight plug longtube headers? Or if Dyno Dons fit well with straight plugs?

redneckjoe

if it were me and i was spending that much money,...i would contact Dyno Don, express any concerns and questions. he has a very good reputation.

brodysZ28

One step ahead of ya. Waiting for his PM now. I had actually already started talking with him last year when diagnosing a hp loss. Thought it was the headers but turned out to be valve springs. I'm really having a hard time because of the straight plugs it seems.

redneckjoe

going dual exhaust, or sticking with a y-pipe?
heres a mandrel, dual, 3" set-up i've been working on.

brodysZ28

I really don't care dual or single. Whatever fits best and performs best. I'll probably go with dial 3" or single 4". Interesting H-pipe. I haven't seen them like that before with the 45-degree tubes. Looks good.

crazynights

iTrader: (3)

I also called Rick and asked about doing an upgrade exhaust on my 383. Just saving some cash now. I just picked up some Doug L/T.
He does have a great reputation and from what I've been told does a great job. Also helps he is into third gens big time! Let me know if you go to him. Would like to see what he did for you.

brodysZ28

I know some guys in RI that had work done by him and say good things. I actually saw some welding work he did on a twin turbo setup and it looked very nice. His big block camaro is ridiculous as well. Are your heads straight plugs or angle? Any idea how the dougs longtubes are going to fit?

crazynights

iTrader: (3)

I have straight plugs. Vortec Heads. Running Hooker 2055's now.
I'm not sure on the room with the Dougs. I know guys running Hooker 2210 with straight. Most don't have major issues.

brodysZ28

Most don't have the issue of #7 plug as this guy did? Another member actually modified a plug to make it shorter.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/exha...-complete.html

brodysZ28

Major Issue: I don't see any way of having a high flow exhaust system while using the mechanical z-bar linkage. The linkage takes up all of the space next to the oil filter, which is where all long tube collectors end up. Looks like I will have to convert to hydraulic. Any major benefits of using a hydraulic throwout bearing or should I just stick with all stock equipment?

brodysZ28

Update: Swapping everything over to stock style hydraulic clutch. I chose stainless works longtubes due to the fact that they are the only ones that I have not read needed to be modified. They should be here in 2 weeks. I will be fabricating a double-hump trans crossmember out of some C-channel which will allow the headers to flow straight back with minimal bends. This will be a full 3" true dual system which should not restrict the motor any. I am expecting that it'll dyno right at 425hp 455 ft-lbs at the wheels. The next issue is the upper panhard bar brace. I just ordered the founders panhard bar relocation kit which allows room for a dual 3" system. I have done a lot of reading on the affects to the roll axis, jacking, etc and decided that since I don't auto x or road race the car I'd give it a try. If I am not happy with the results I will have to start playing with spring rates and sway bars. Still haven't decided on mufflers yet. Anybody have any recommendations? I'd like to be over 650cfm per muffler just to be safe. Should be a badass exhaust system when all said and done.

crazynights

iTrader: (3)

Would love to see pics if you are still going with the Hartford Muffler

brodysZ28

Will do. Just talked to Rick a bit today. Headers should be here in a week, then I will install them and finalize everything. In the meantime, here's a good video on exhaust system design. I'd be in trouble if I listened to all of the backpressure and tube size theories people spew out of their mouth with no knowledge behind it.

brodysZ28

Been a while. Sw headers took 5 weeks to get here and I had a lot of work to do. Quick summary: Oil pan and pickup, steering centerlink, inner tie rods, hydraulic pedals, master cylinder, bell housing, clutch, started with stock slave cylinder then realized SW headers will not fit with stock slave. Lowering the collector would kill ground clearance, so now going with a RAM hydraulic throwout bearing. Fabricated a double hump trans crossmember. Founders panhard bar relocation bracket, brace, and panhard bar. The car is at Rick's right now and he should be working on it this coming week. Hopefully done by Saturday. I am real excited for a longtube true dual 3 inch system, WITH ground clearance! I hope at least.

brodysZ28

brodysZ28

brodysZ28

brodysZ28

brodysZ28

brodysZ28

For anyone wanting to see ACTUAL dyno numbers to back up what cfm calculations show. Dual 3 certainly won't be choking my motor, and will give me a little room to grow. 2.5, on the other hand, would cost me ~10 hp and ~13 ft-lbs.

skinny z

Looks like you've done your research. I bet I've read every article and link you've posted at one time or another. There is a great deal of misinformation regarding what constitutes a good exhaust system.
I'll go with the Holley's new Black Heart dual setup for the 3rd gens. While it's nice to have custom system, the cost of the stainless pipes and then the labour to TIG it all together would probably be equal to or maybe even more than having a kit delivered to your door. The pipes to connect the header collector to the back half of the dual kit would still need to be fabricated.
I like your approach to the crossmember. Build the exhaust first and then the crossmember to suit. So many people go the other way around and there always seems to be a ground clearance issue.
I'm looking forward to your dyno results. From a peak HP perspective, your choice of 1-3/4" primaries will probably produce the best result. I think though, that power below peak, (TQ and HP) will likely suffer somewhat.

brodysZ28

I tend to over-analyze. You can ask 10 different people the same question and get 10 different answers when it comes to this stuff. It's great that Holley is offering a true dual system right out of the box. Is the blackheart stainless? I am going with aluminized just because of the cost of stainless. It should last a really long time since I don't drive it in the winter. You are probably right about power below peak. Actually, engine masters just did another header test where they did back to back dyno pulls using 1 5/8, 1 3/4, and 1 7/8. The 1 3/4 did the best overall but the 1 5/8 had slightly better low end power. So something like a truck motor where you need that power low vs a "performance" car for higher rpm would call for different headers maybe. I like seeing the numbers, so it is another good video to watch.

skinny z

Mostly because the ten people that are asked aren't knowledgeable in the field. I like to work with the science behind what makes it work and then seek out successful examples. This is why I'm interested in your results.

Yes, the Black Heart exhaust is stainless. It's actually part of their LS swap package. Combined with their headers and transmission specific crossmember, the collector back portion makes up the assembly. I would be interested in the X-pipe and back. Twin mufflers tucked up under the quarter panels too.

As for the primary diameter, having always been street orientated with maybe 20-30 track passes a season, the smaller diameter gives a better driving experience. More torque where I can use it. While there are still plenty of red-line shifts on the street, it's the lower RPM that the engine spends most of it's time. Cruising at 75 mph is less than 2500 too. My results are based on a 355. Now that I've stepped up in cam and heads, I'm leaning more towards strip performance and may find the a larger primary pipe will produce better ET and trap speed. That would almost certainly be the case if I had the cubes of a 383.

brodysZ28

I completely agree. Once you are starting to get to the level of tube sizes, volumes and velocities, there is some engineering basics that are really needed to try to even understand what is going on dynamically. I am not sure when I'll be able to post dyno results, and I did upgrade the oil pan which could give me a few hp/tq, so not truly a head to head comparison.

I wish they had a trans crossmember for the TKO. Took a while to build mine with a cutoff wheel and cordless drill. It's definitely largely preference at that point where people want that last 10 hp and tq, which is great that you can pick.

Should be picking up the car on Friday. The countdown is on.

skinny z

I'd really like to build an exhaust system that uses pulse waves effectively. I know that a lot of horsepower is missed with exhausts that are mis-sized in length and diameter. The scavenging benefits are lost and so with it is HP that could be realized. Properly spec'd headers and collectors that open to the atmosphere is the number one route but that's hardly streetable. Using the same header and collector but having them exit into a termination or resonance chamber is the next best thing but the 3rd gen is very space limited where these chambers have to go. So we're all kind of stuck. It would be interesting to reverse engineer the Holley dual setup (or anyone's fabricated system) and see where the crossover and the overall length/diameter of the system coincides with the power curve and pulse tuning. Each engine would be different but to get an overall sense as to whether we're making the situation worse or better would be really helpful.

brodysZ28

It would be very interesting to see what a true "tuned" exhaust system makes over an every day "performance" system. Obviously you have to fit the exhaust to the car in most cases, so like you said, we are limited. We should write Engine Masters and ask them to test collector extensions, tube lengths, x-pipe locations, and so on! I don't know why there has never been crowd funding set up to do testing like this. You get all these people who would pay 5 or 10 bucks to know results of a specific test and before you know it there is thousands of dollars funding the test.

brodysZ28

I just skimmed through this old article. Testing is on a big block, but horsepower is horsepower. Huge difference between shorty and longtubes, and then again with extensions.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/headers-dyno-test/

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

It certainly shows the value of long over short tube, and also of ceramic coatings.

Too bad they did not baseline the engine with manifolds, so we could understand the value of shorties.

skinny z

There are probably thousands of tests illustrating this compared to that regarding headers. I do agree though that it would be nice to have them all consolidated.
I like to study the theory. Vizard has several excellent articles specific to small block Chevys. There is a lot to learn from the hours of testing he (and many others) have done. I have several of his books and refer to them daily when I'm building something (as I am now).
From my own personal perspective, it'll be my Hedman long tubes (actually a mid length if you look at the numbers) with collector extension cut-outs based on the results from using the PipeMax program. If I can build it right, uncapping the headers at the track should yield the max output that the package can deliver. That'll mean tuning to the weather of the day when at the track (and again for the re-capped ride home ) but that's racing. Or test and tuning really.

brodysZ28

I didn't realize how much of an effect coatings had. I need to take a look more at vizards work. I always hear about it. So no car until mid-next week probably. Progress is slow going at the shop.

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

Me either. Those number were very surprising to me.

skinny z

It certainly does.
The tough part is knowing how long a header to run for optimum performance. Without actually testing, we're all kind of guessing. The good part, and that Hot Rod article touched on this as does David Vizard in his book "How to Build Max Performance Chevy Small Blocks on a Budget", is that the length isn't super critical so long as it's sufficient, i.e., not a block hugger header. What's more, in the case of the chassis headers we buy, they are hardly equal length at all but the result is that the cylinder to cylinder tuning is spread over a larger RPM range which is something we want in our street cars. If we're building a drag racing engine, where we would operate over a narrow RPM range, then dialing in the specific primary length becomes more important.
The same applies to the collector. For us, the collector is something we can work with seeing as the primary length has already been determined when we bought the headers. Collector extensions provide the biggest tuning aid at this point. The unfortunate part is that once we tack on the rest of the exhaust system, the collector length is determined by how long that particular exhaust system is unless we make provisions for a expansion/terminator/resonator box at the appropriate distance from the end of the primaries.

brodysZ28

Got the car back late Wednesday night and had to replaced the damaged cap and rotor from the exhaust shop yesterday. All up and running. I took a few pictures while the car was still up on the lift at the shop. I didn't get the X-Pipe like I wanted because the builder said it wouldn't fit (too hard for him to make fit), but you can see where the H-Pipe will go in the pictures. It is in there now, he just wasn't finished when I took the pictures. Overall everything looks good. The system is well built, with only a few minor details missed here and there. It is MUCH quieter than before and has a very nice crisp smooth tone. I'll take a video soon and post it up.

skinny z

That should move some air.
I've got a few questions:
Which mufflers are those?
What size is the over the axle pipe?
Whose panhard brace is that?

brodysZ28

Originally I wanted to go with the Ultraflows, but the guy said that he can get "no-name magnaflows that are the same exact muffler without magnaflow stamped on them". I didn't ask what exactly they were... Maybe the summit brand? It is dual 3" all the way back. There is only one spot near the trans where he made a small flat to get it up tight. The panhard bar and brace are founders performance. Pretty inexpensive and good quality. Removing the old brace/bushing bolts, on the other hand, was not so easy. Check out the quick videos I made. Next time I have the car jacked up, I will take a better video showing the system a little better.

crazynights

iTrader: (3)

Great vids!!! It sounds great too! Notice a performance gain?
Seems to have plenty of ground clearance too. Very nice!

brodysZ28

I like the tone. Overall noise level isn't bad at all while driving too. It is so hard to say if it feels any quicker. I haven't driven it in 4 months, so it makes it hard. I haven't really laid into it either because of the break-in period on the clutch. I'm hoping to head to Lebanon Valley Dragway on the 10th, though. Hoping to get down to low 12's.

skinny z

What's your personal best to date?
Just opening up the "test gate" I made before the muffler (stock location single muffler) was enough for 1.5+ mph in the 1/8th. Not tuning. Just a couple of back to back passes. I'd think that changing from a single to 3" duals, provided the mufflers flow a decent CFM, has to be worth a least a few MPH at the top end. This is on a 3650 lb chassis that has a best sea level corrected 12.4x @ 109 mph.

brodysZ28

Last year I ran 13.0 at 108. 1.87 60 foot iirc. But since then I did the top end to better heads and intake as well as the exhaust. Before this exhaust I made 400whp and 430wtq... may have gained 20 whp and wtq with the longtubes?

skinny z

That's a lot of trap speed for the ET. And you've added heads and intake since then? 400 rear wheel hp should add something to the top end. I would expect improvements but you're moving pretty good already.
I've 60 footed at 1.71 but lately, with the tired slicks and increased engine output, I've settled into the 1.8x range. That's good for mid 12's depending on the DA of the day.
If you can get yours to hook, (and continue to hook through your shifts from the looks of the 13.0 ET), then mid 12's should be easy.
I'd hope for at least another couple of MPH.
Another trip to the chassis dyno to verify before and after exhaust results would be a great piece of data to throw out here as well.

brodysZ28

Keep in mind that the 400 whp was after the pass last year. I was only making around 340hp at that point mainly due to floating valves. At some points in the power curve I gained 80-90 hp. Then the new exhaust on top of that. I'm on old street tires too, but it surprisingly hooks okay for what it is. Once I get going it should stay hooked.

skinny z

You may find you'll be blowing the tires of it now. If there's a 90 HP improvement in the curve, those street tires may not like it!
I think you'll find your new combination, new heads and intake and now the exhaust, is going to make some serious changes to how the car behaves.
From a drag strip perspective, our cars are similar. I've trapped at 108 and 60' in the 1.8x. That 60' comes on old worn ET Streets. I can't imagine even trying to make a pass on street tires. I know the drag radials I have picked out, will get my 1.7x 60' back again. That should be good for about 2/10ths all else being equal.
My prediction is you'll be shopping for slicks soon enough.

brodysZ28

I wouldn't be surprised if the tires couldn't hold anymore either, only one way to find out! When these tires are ready to be replaced I'll be choosing a DR for sure. What tires do you have picked out?

BovineZro

iTrader: (11)

Subbed. There's a lot of good info here! Your custom transmission crossmember looks very slick. Doesn't look like there are any issues with ground clearance either. And the sound is great! Looking forward to seeing how your time and power numbers improve. Planning to get it on the dyno anytime soon?

brodysZ28

Thanks, pretty happy with how everything came out. Not sure when I'll get to the dyno. It isn't top priority, so we'll see.

brodysZ28

Update:

I made a few passes with the new setup.
Best ET was 12.464 @ 112.40 w/ 1.893 60'
Best MPH was 12.55@ 113.88 w/ 2.065 60'

Had some wiring issues at the time so may not have been running as well as it could. Looking for 11.99 with the new drag radials, even though they are 18's.

Also installed GC weight jacks which lowered the car a half inch or so. the Panhard bar has touched the exhaust a couple times a believe. However, apparently there are "panhard bar lowering" brackets and even the full UMI kit released after I made this setup. If I lower the drivers side of the panhard bar I am clear of exhaust interference... and better for handling too... win/win.

http://umiperformance.com/catalog/in...oducts_id=1036

http://umiperformance.com/catalog/in...oducts_id=1049

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

I thought you guys might like to look at this:
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com...-headers.8453/

brodysZ28

Cool headers. I've never heard of them before.

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

Inside of that "collector", each individual tube ends in a different spot.
So each tube is actually equal length.