CamarosRUS

yea tell me about it, i have a z28 plus its lowered...

porkyzilla

iTrader: (1)

ok im about to buy a flywheel...now im so confused with my searches on this site... i know forsure that the lt1 is externally balanced.. but what about my L98 is it internal balance??? is the flexplate and harmonic balancer neutral?? this flywheel i want to buy this guy said would work...but he includes a weight for external balance... another thing is i will be stroking the motor pretty quick and blueprinting...and since i wont be pulling the motor or dont have an old flywheel to take to a machine shop to balance for me im so lost help hehe

Camaro_nut

I agree, the bolts weren't that hard to get to (a 700r4). I think it
all comes down to experience, patience, lift or jack stands, impact
gun, the way you handle stress, etc.

I used a lift with a heavy duty type air compressor like the
ones you see in the auto dealerships/garages. Actually, this
garage that I am using is setup just like an independent
garage. It can store up to 6 cars with two lifts. So, it makes
things 10 times easier to do this project. The only thing that
I found hard to swap over was the pedals. A back breaker!
My upper body was sore for two days from trying to hold up
the pedals, sliding into the studs, then trying to start a nut
with the other hand. Not fun while your head is at
a slight twist and your lying on your belly/side! But, it's like
90% done. I just have to bolt in the clutch master all the way
and splice the wires in.

As far as putting a jack stand under a lowered Camaro,
it all depends on what type of jack you have. I looked
around for a specially made hydraulic jack for lowered
vehicles. It's about 2 inches lower than a standard jack.
It still barely fits under the jacking points/frame. But it
sure beats trying to use 4x8 or 2x8 boards to drive on, then
jacking up the car!

h1-vltg

Yeah...Tell me about it, that is my current method.

bnoon

It's a lot easier to take out the driver's side seat and just lay full out on your back with your feet up on the back seat. I was so comfortable, I practically fell asleep in this position while working on a stereo/alarm installation. I will be using this method when working on my pedals in my T-5 swap soon. Much easier on body parts.

MrDude_1

the other thing you can do is get a 13mm socket and ratchet, remove the 4 nuts for the seat, and in under a min, you have a ton of room.

just lay a blanket over the studs so you dont hurt yourself, then lay on your back under the dash.

easy.

Camaro_nut

Yes, I am sure it is! But, I hope this is the last time I need to
do this. As I will never abuse my back and arms like that again!

SLP IROC-Z

iTrader: (1)

im nots ure if anyones asked about this yet, i read alot of the way through the thread and only found questions about CAGS, reverse lockout etc.

what i am wondering has to do with the clutch assembly

my car is originally a 5 speed so i have a manual flywheel and clutch, pedals and hydraulics. if i were to go to a T56 id rather use my T5 hydraulics, flyhweel and clutch. is this possible? i know the LT1s use a pull style pressure plate, so that slave is not going to work. is there a company out there that makes a "push" style slave conversion for LT1 T56 bell housings?

porkyzilla

iTrader: (1)

lakewood bell housings has one for the t56 to thirdgen... how ever...be sure to get the 94-97 t-56....

TKOPerformance

CAGS is a non-issue. Just don't connect anything to the solenoid. If you want to remove it you can use an M22x1.5 drain plug with a washer gasket to plug the hole left by the solenoid.

The reverse lockout can be handled several ways. You can even ignore it all together and you cna still "crash-through" at low speeds. Other options are a momentary switch or wiring it into the brake pedal switch.

powermite

Guys,
Ive recently finished this swap and use an new aftermarket T56 and bellhousing off a 3rd gen manual car.All went in pretty straightforward but on driving i had a huge vibration.On checking the driveline angles,I found that as my car has been lowered,this made the diff higher than the gearbox out put shaft and there my propshaft was hiher at the back than the front.Even with an adjustable torque arm,there was no way of getting the angle right.The only way i cured the problem was to cut the top of the transmission tunnel and jack the box up until it was in the correct position relative to the diff(box needed lifting 40 mm)
After welding in the new tunnel top and adjusting the pinion angles all was well,proved by the fact that the day after i completed this I went on a 1200 mile trip around europe,even stopping at the Nurburgring and trashing her around the 15mile track there!!
If any of you want genuine proper info about this job then email me,
cheers

PM

Camaro_nut

Woah! HOW much lower are we talking about here? Something
is not right there! I had lowered my car 1" with the Hotchkis
coil springs, and nothing changed, vibration/driveline wise.
Other than the fact that I put in an adjustable panhard rod
to properly align the rear end to track right, nothing else
should change! I am in the midst of doing an auto to T-56
myself. Now that you mentioned this issue, I will have to
check out my driveline angles.

powermite

maybe its an issue with the aftermarket T56 and not the 4th Gen Style one as many of you guys use.The Aftermarket uses the T5 bellhousing,wheras the 4th gen has a very short bellhousing.This mean that the aftermarket's,prop and torque arm need to be shortened by 2"(or buy new Spohn stuff like i did).The T5 bellhousing is real near the tunnel and there not really the room to jack the box up to the correct height.Maybe with the shorter 4th Gen bellhousing the box can mount higher on the rear mount as maybe the bellhousing wont foul the floor.
I used the spohn cross member,adjustable torque arm and propshaft,so I know it was all fitted in the correct way.It was just the issue with the prop angle need the drastic action to correct it.

cheers
PM

TKOPerformance

I'm wondering how low your car is too. I did the swap on my IROC Z28, which is 1" lower than a standard Z28 from the factory. I've had no driveline issues.

If you couldn't make up the difference with an adjustable torque arm having a driveshaft made that uses a double-carden joint would be another way of making it work. Driveshaft angles are often problems on 4WD trucks, so I've had experience with vibration and binding before.

powermite

this was the problem

PM

MrDude_1

powermite is correct.

its a issue with the aftermarket T56.

Zghost had to do the exact same thing to get it right... he had to cut the top of teh trans tunnel off, raise the trans, and then reweld it back on a little higher.



this is why i DONT reccomend the aftermarket T56 for the 3rdgen.

the 4thgen LT1 one is perfect, and its a bolt in. this is mostly because a 4thgen is just a revised 3rdgen to begin with.. lol.


i'll see if i can dig up some pics he took when it was cut apart...

powermite

Dude,
In all the research i did before carrying out the swap,this problem was never mentioned.If id known i would have gone the 4th gen style.Never mind though its all working great now

PM

MrDude_1

i didnt know until after zghost had the problem... looking into it, i found 1 other person on a email list that had to do the same thing.


you're only the 3rd person i know of that used the aftermarket one...

Camaro_nut

Thanks for clearing that up, Mrdude_1. I was getting worried
there for a minute. Then realized that NO ONE EVER mentioned
that on the FACTORY Borg warner T-56!


Thank goodness I bought a used factory one. Just for the
peace of mind, I checked my driveline angles. All look exactly
the same as the original auto trans. configuration sat in place.
That's a load off my back. This project was straight forward,
but the LAST thing I want is surprises!

TKOPerformance

I never saw any mention of this before either, and I did a heck of a lot of research before I spun the first wrench. I've got a folder on T56 swap stuff that's about 1" thick, and nothing about this was ever mentioned. That's really messed up that the people selling the aftermarket T56s don't tell you about this problem. That's a lot of surgery for what should be a simple, near total bolt in swap (like if you used a 4th gen box).

At this point I can't see why anyone would go the AM route. You can get a brand new 4th gen T56 for less money than a new AM one. McLeod solved the blow-proof bellhousing problem. If you had a nice T5 clutch/flywheel setup just sell it and buy the good LT1 stuff. That's what eBay is for!

MrDude_1

when you use the aftermarket T56 for the application it was designed for (older, fullsize muscle cars) it fits fine.

3rdgens are designed to have a turned trans tucked up tight on the pan. same with the 4thgens.

most other cars are made for the straight upright trans, and have more room.. that lets you mount the tailshaft up higher, solving the problem.. basicly it'll fit any car with a frame.... i donno about 1st and 2nd gens... or any other unibody GM design.

edit:
i also know you have to cut the floor to fit it in a cuda... but i think you had to do that to any cuda that went from a auto to a manual.....

porkyzilla

iTrader: (1)

ok well the t-56 master cyl rod doesnt fit onto 3rd gen pedal *** even if i took the plastic bushing out how would it clip onto it???

my question is how did you guys do it???

now i also have a set of 4th gen pedals about the wiring..can i just transfer all the sensors or how about all the wiring...how would it wire it up to my 89...

MrDude_1

i used 4thgen pedals.
if the hole in the rod is too small, id assume people drill it out bigger. if its too large, get a nylon bushing.


as for the wiring, and/or possibly fitting the 4thgen pedals, re-read the first page of the FAQ

Jarhead1

mrdude, check your pm's

jmd

iTrader: (4)

On the 4th gens, I believe they had a clip like that which holds the brake booster rod to the brake pedal. That one is a good idea to use anyway; it's what I did on my first iteration of a g-body T5 swap.

TKOPerformance

First, remove the plastic bushing. Then take some 220 grit sandpaper and make sure that the mounting stud on the 3rd gen clutch pedal is clean and free of any paint, rust, or high spots. After that it should just slide right in. I snaggd a spare brake rod clip from a junkyard to hold the clutch rod to the stud. Worked just fine.

porkyzilla

iTrader: (1)

even when i removed the plastic bushing there was too much excessive play in the eye of the rod and the clip wouldnt fit over the slit on the rod....so i just used my 4th gen pedals i cut off the gas pedal instead of using it...transferd the sensors cause they screw right in from my 3rd gen pedals set how ever i drilled out the brake booster holes so it bolted right up except the top 5th bolt didnt line up at all so i JUST SAID FORGET IT haha

HaroGt14

Ok so im kinda confussed. Your saying not to buy an aftermarket T-56 and an LT1 T-56 is optimal. Well I have a chance to get a T-56 from a '00 T/A just rebuilt with spec stage 3 clutch, all pedals, master cylinder and lines for $750. Will it work or will I have the crazy driveline angles like you guys were showing before?

Also will I be able to run the spec stage 3 clutch on my 91 Z . . . it's soon to be a 383. Or will I have to get a different flywheel too? Im going from a 700R4 to hopefully a T-56.

Sean

porkyzilla

iTrader: (1)

do a search....
jk no ls1 t56 are very different wont work at all...need 93-97

turboj91

Installed a T-56 into a 83 bird with a 2 piece rear main 355. Centerforce claimed they were the only makers of a clutch/flywheel combo for the conversion. I thought the parts book stated a 168 tooth flywheel. Anyone do this conversion/install yet. If so, what starter was used and which hydraulic setup was used - 3rd gen or 4th gen. I got the pedal setup from a 86 Trans Am.

TKOPerformance

Centerforce told you one whopper of a lie. I'm running a McLeod flywheel on my car, and it's a 2-piece RMS motor. This allows you to use any 4th gen LT1 style clutch. There are plenty available. I'm running a S.P.E.C. stage III.

The flywheel is 153 tooth. I used a starter from a 3rd gen with a 5-speed. Use the 4th gen sealed hydraulics. Even new they are under $100 from GM.

turboj91

Chaulk another one up for salesman B.S. on the part of Centerforce. I got the dual friction setup and it is all nice but man is that flywheel heavy. 170 m.p.h. here I come

Must be a misprint in their catalog or I looked at the wrong part. Have a starter for 168 tooth. Time to exchange for a 153.

Thanks for the info. Going shopping for 4th gen.hydraulics now.

MrDude_1

cheapest place new for stock GM stuff is GMpartsdirect.com.... atleast thats what i found shopping around, and thats where i got mine.

i have the same flywheel (for sale actually ) and yea, its HEAVY.

Camaro_nut

Just watch out for the shipping! GM Parts Direct may be
cheaper than any dealer off the street, but their shipping
is WAY too high than what it should be. Some items
they do sell can still be cheaper than the dealer, even with
the high shipping. Just a heads up.


On a note about lightweight flywheels:

I went with the steel billet flywheel from SLP. They claimed
it to be 7 pounds lighter than stock. Guess what? It is
7 pounds lighter than stock. I think the only legit claim
on there website. The statements about thier headers
is a lie! NO high luster and NO guarantee on coating!


And if you guys think the factory LT1 flywheels are heavy,
the T-5 V8 flywheels are even heavier. Makes sense, since
it's bigger. hehe....

MrDude_1

GMPD sales scheme:

the "price" shown is DEALER COST.. its what they pay.

100% of their income is from the handling charge. its a STRAIGHT PERCENTAGE of the shown price. + actual shipping amount.

therefore somthing pricy, like T56 hydraulics, its still MUCH cheaper then a dealers price.. even whey they "cut you a deal"

for somthing cheap, like a couple clutch bolts, the local dealer is cheaper..


heres how i do it: (i know ive posted this before elsewhere)
1. goto GMPD and print out the price.. and the price after S&H

2. goto the local dealer... you now know HIS cost. bargin and work with him. you know his cost. you know what GMPD would want.

3. if he cant come close, then you just go the GMPD route, otherwise you get it from him


simple.

turboj91

I get 30% off the list price from any dealer. Ohh the benefits of having a friend who owns a body shop.

Camaro_nut

Good thing for me is that I don't need to deal with GMPD.
I get discounts on every GM part I buy right from my local
dealerships. Nice perk when you work at a dealership!

Camaro_nut

Same here! 30% off the list price from any dealer. Nice huh?

TKOPerformance

I've bought so many parts from my local Chevy dealer and NAPA over the years that they treat me like a shop. I don't know if that's good or bad...

Camaro_nut

Yeah, I know what you mean. I have called and visited my
local Chevy dealer and local parts stores so many times
it's insane. :lala:

MrDude_1

my local parts guy knows me by name.

TKOPerformance

Hell, when I wak through the door I feel like I'm on the set of Cheers. Everyone's like "Tom!"

turboj91

When I walk in everyone says "OK what are you building now?"

Anyway I bought the slave/rod assy. Nice piece. The application was for a 97. Comes with a steel braided hose and the res. and the unit is prefilled (no provisions to bleed it so they have no choice). Dealer list $163+, I paid $113 and change.

I have pedals from an 86 (received them by mail so I never saw the original installation). The pedal assy has 2 brace arms that go against the firewall. Does the u-bolt go thru these brace arms?

Also if the u-bolt does go thru these braces, it would be real easy to locate the 1.5" hole for the clutch actuator but... the car has cruise control and the vac. line comes thru the firewall in such a location that it would interfere with the location of the 1.5" hole. I am not going to be using cruise control so it will not bother me to remove the hose but I was wondering if I was in left field here.

Anyone have the same experience?

Lastly, the 3rd gen pedals seem to be much easier than 4th gen. I saw a diagram of the 4th gen pedal assy (includes the go pedal) and I am glad I got 3rd gen stuff. 5 bolts out, 5 bolts in, all in about 10 min.

TKOPerformance

The u-bolt is for the pushrod assembly, and the two braces back up the assembly on the firewall side. I used my firewall pad as a template to cut the holes for the bolt and the hold for the slave. It worked out just fine using it as a template.

I used 3rd gen pedals too, because of the driect bolt in, no need to mess with the attached gas pedal on the 4th gen pedals.

My car is a fully loaded IROC Z28, so I have cruise and everything. Where the lines come through does no interfere with the hole for the pushrod.

MrDude_1

take 4thgen pedals.

cut gas pedal "arm" off


now its exactly like your 3rdgen pedals.

bolt it in following the directions i have above.

retain your stock 3rdgen gas pedal.

mrws6speed

Hi,
I have a '92 T/A WS6 Convertible M5 I'm doing the swap on now. I have a brand new GM LT1 Clutch, brand new GM LT1 Pressure plate, brand new GM LT1 Flywheel, and a T56 out of a 97 T/A. Everything swapped in nicely, but the car vibrates pretty bad as the RPM's go up. It vibrates even when the clutch is pushed in, so it appears to be the flywheel out of balance (?). Is there something I'm missing? The front damper is still the 5.0 TPI motor damper....do I need to use the LT1? I thought they were neutrally balanced. Thanx, Mike

TKOPerformance

The 5.0 (305) and 5.7 (350) are both internally balanced engines, so you shouldn't have a vibration problem caused by an out of balance condition swapping parts from one motor to another. If the flywheel and clutch assembly are both brand new they should be balanced as well, and not worn out of true either. It does however sound like something is out of balance. You might try taking the flywheel and clutch assembly to a machine shop and have them balanced as a unit to neutral. Make sure they make reference marks on the p. plate and flyhweel so they go back together in the right orientation. It seems odd, but stranger things have definately happened.

mrws6speed

That's what I thought. I did notice that the weights on the 5.0 and LT1 flywheels were different sizes and different locations. I talked to Hawk's Third Gen and they said the LT1 parts should work. All the parts (except the trans) are brand new GM parts (not reman) from the local dealership. The T5 ran smooth all the way up the rpms and speed. Thanx, Mike

porkyzilla

iTrader: (1)

couple of things around what speed does the vibration start, is the vibration there in neutral revving up to redline, go on the highway go to where the vibration is than lightly push in the clutch pedal see if you can feel it there, than if not speed up again than put it in neutral if the rpms drop to idle speed and vibration is there its not yoru flywheel/clutch/pilot bearing, and its drive train related

which brings me to another question what kind of transmission mount are you using, have you tried flipping the drive shaft 180 degrees, are you tires in good shape no flat spots, out of balance.

mrws6speed

Thanks again for the great input. The vibration is present even when the car is not moving. You can press in the clutch and rev the engine and the vibration gets worse as the RPMs increase.