When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
History / OriginalityGot a question about 1982-1992 Camaro or Firebird history? Have a question about original parts, options, RPO codes, when something was available, or how to document your car? Those questions, answers, and much more!
As most of you know the base Firebird was available in 1991 and 1992 with options to make it look like a fake GTA. It was the W68 package and included 15" gold lace rims, instead of the GTA's 16", along with the full gfx and foglamps. This option package could be ordered with any engine combo and a lot were 6 bangers. Anyway, my thread is to see how many owners may be on this site. I have owned this car for 9 years and have not seen another just like it in person. I have only seen 1 or two exactly like it on ebay. Mine came with all the options (1SC) a 305 TBI and 700r4, t-tops, and of course the W68 package as noted above. So far, my breakdown of all RPO codes etc has led to it being only 1 of hundreds. Thanks.
They're not quite 'can't throw a rock without hitting one' common, but they aren't unusual either. In all actuality, that configuration was probably the single most common 92 bird config.
W68 designates the aero package, the gold wheels were just another option on the chart. The only mildly unusual part is the gold wheels, and even then they aren't very unusual. Someone at GM probably realized they had a backstock of crosslace 15's (optional on the Trans Am and SE in the earlier years) and decided they should paint em gold and use em up.
Agreed that it was a common package, but that included all the colors, 6 and V-8 (2) t-tops and hardtop, different options, etc. There were not a lot of 92's built period, so any slightly different ones are going to be low numbers. You can breakdown a car many ways. What I am trying to find out is how many members might have one. I see a few around town where I live, but none are red, V8, with the options my car has. As for the N90 crosslace rims, they ARE a part of the W68 package and any you see with the standard alloy rims are not W68's, they just have the aero package alone. As I stated, (and this can be backed up by another local member who has shown his cars for years)........... I have owned my car for 9 years and show it, locally and at national shows and I have NEVER seen another just like mine in person. I have seen a couple on ebay, but that's it..............Hence, the whole purpose of this post.
The gold wheels came on an option of the W68 package.
Known as the Special Edition.
Gold Firebird emblems, and gold crosslace wheels.
Firebirds started the W68 package in 1989, and came with 6 cylinder engines.
They got the regular alum wheels and the silver Firebird emblems on the fender.
The V-8s came out in 1991, so a W68 car could get this.
We own a 1991 Firebird with the Sport Appearance Package with the V-8 engine, silver alum wheels, and silver Firebird emblems.
Even says W68 on the RPO decal.
And, I have seen tons of 1989 and up Firebirds with the W68 package.
I have the original 1992 Pontiac brochure that shows gold lace only, as the option was meant to mimic the GTA. GTA's had the 16" gold or black crosslace, but the W68 package only had the gold and were 15". Also, anyone could opt for the silver rims, but the gold were standard w/the package. Yes, the W68 pkg has been around in different variations over the years, but I was/am being specific to 1991-1992.....................thanks anyway The gold lace rims were also standard on certain colors of convertibles, again, according to the original 1992 brochure.
Yes, it probably does. For all that don't know, the W68 RPO is for an Sport Appearance Package used many years. Ithas been around since 77 and was the RPO used for such models as the Skybird, Redbird and Yellowbird. However, in 1991-1992 the W68 package was for a "fake" GTA. It gave the base Firebird the TA gfx, fog lamps, 15" cross lace wheels, anda full gauge package at a much cheaper price than an actual GTA. So far, one member has answered the post with an ALMOST identical car to mine. Our interiors are different colors, but same car. That was the idea behind this post, to see if there were many people here with them. Thanks for your reply.
I've been looking online for a 91-92 Formy or GTA , and everytime I see a pic of one of these I get excited, only to read the ad and find out it's got a TBI 305 or a V6. D'oh! What a letdown.
Well, talk to me again in 6 months to a couple of years from now. What "annoys" you now may be a godsend to you then (a lowly 305 TBI.....ha) As you have found out I am sure, they only made around 1,058 Formula's, around 663 TA's, and ONLY 228 GTA's for 92. How many do you think are left? How many do you think are left in decent shape? GOOD LUCK finding a nice one and NOT paying 8-10K for it. These cars like mine are V8, and perform almost as well as a Formula or TA and are more plentiful right now. What you are passing up today, you might not even be lucky enough to find for under 10K in a couple of years. Check out my sig pic to see what lowly 305's can do and also the included pic of mine and my buddies Formula (That's how I know what my car will do against a Formula) which looks like a twin to mine. (Cool at shows)
Let me correct an earlier post. The W68 option was available with either the silver or gold rims. What I was trying to say was only some of the W68's were the special gold package, and those were what I was looking for. Many came with just the aero package (gfx) and the standard silver rims. There are a few like that here in my town and two are red with t-tops and V8. One is actually owned by an older lady (original owner) has only 63K miles and has never had the t-tops off. She has my phone number needless to say.......ha
Agreed that it was a common package, but that included all the colors, 6 and V-8 (2) t-tops and hardtop, different options, etc. There were not a lot of 92's built period, so any slightly different ones are going to be low numbers. You can breakdown a car many ways. What I am trying to find out is how many members might have one. I see a few around town where I live, but none are red, V8, with the options my car has. As for the N90 crosslace rims, they ARE a part of the W68 package and any you see with the standard alloy rims are not W68's, they just have the aero package alone. As I stated, (and this can be backed up by another local member who has shown his cars for years)........... I have owned my car for 9 years and show it, locally and at national shows and I have NEVER seen another just like mine in person. I have seen a couple on ebay, but that's it..............Hence, the whole purpose of this post.
24,000 firebirds built in 1992..I call it common...trans-ams and formulas not a common place...almost all of the base birds got that package I have had several...It is less common to find a 1992 bird without the ground effects
yes, almost all base Birds got the gfx, but most also got the standard silver wheels. Lots got the gold lace too, but most of those were 6 bangers. I have had my car 9 years, have seens hundreds of them similar to mine, but never one exactly like it. I am interested to see 1 exactly like it. Do you have any pics of yours? Any of them red/gold?
If you are the expert on the subject, why would you even ask the question in the first place?
The issue I see is that you're spewing garbage on a topic you obviously know little about, and you're saying other people are wrong when they're sharing accurate information with you.
Finally, if you really think that a TBI V8 comes anywhere close to the performance level of the L98 or even the LB9 you SERIOUSLY need a reality check. The slowest speed density LB9 will still lay waste to the fastest L03 in the 1/4. A speed density L98 will cover the same ground about 3 seconds faster. Not to mention a TPI car drives like a completely different animal. There is no comparison.
Although, not near an expert, I do know a bit about the 91-92 Birds. And, I agree that an L98 will blow away a LO3 and never said it wouldn't. Obviously, you didn't read the posts very carefully. The issue here was only to see how many W68 (gold pkg) 92's might be on here. A Formula or TA are more desireable than a base Bird in any year, but especially in 92. I would never try and say my car was better or more rare than one of those ever, so reread the original post. My comment on them being similar (V8) was that I wouldn't pass up too many nice 92 LO3's because shortly there won't be many nice ones left, when all the Formula's and TA's are taken or gone.
Well, talk to me again in 6 months to a couple of years from now. What "annoys" you now may be a godsend to you then (a lowly 305 TBI.....ha) As you have found out I am sure, they only made around 1,058 Formula's, around 663 TA's, and ONLY 228 GTA's for 92. How many do you think are left? How many do you think are left in decent shape? GOOD LUCK finding a nice one and NOT paying 8-10K for it. These cars like mine are V8, and perform almost as well as a Formula or TA and are more plentiful right now. What you are passing up today, you might not even be lucky enough to find for under 10K in a couple of years. Check out my sig pic to see what lowly 305's can do and also the included pic of mine and my buddies Formula (That's how I know what my car will do against a Formula) which looks like a twin to mine. (Cool at shows)
Not trying to start an argument, but in high school a friend of mine had a Peugot 505 wagon that could make a bigger smoke cloud than that. Powerbraking doesn't prove anything, any rwd car can do it.
Anyway....
Good point about the rarity of the cars. I've been thinking at this point that any third gen I get is going to end up carb'd L98 or not. I just prefer the L98 cars because they make the best drivers, and mine will be a driver for a while till I really get into it. I had a L98 GTA for a few years, and I really liked the car. Great engine, that L98. Unfortunately, to get the kind of power I want out of it is going to require a lot of intake mods, and my budget just doesn't cover that. So, carb it is.
So with that taken into consideration, I guess it doesn't matter if there's a boat anchor under the hood or not. I just prefer to start with the most powerful car to begin with, which is why I looked around for a while to find the GTA I had.
Unfortunately, it seems that I see more 97-90 cars in better shape the the 91-92's. Other than a nice GTA or two on Ebay, all the late model cars I see for sale locally are total beaters. I'm keeping my eyes open, but you're right, I might end up being better off picking up a base car.
yea, you are right about powerbraking. Although I did hold the brake to keep it from launching you can see the brake lights are not on. Also, here is a pic of a 100' posi track. You are right as hell about the L98 being the better engine, but they are getting too hard to find. If you don't plan on keeping it stock, you can start with any old beater as you said. The reason for there being more 87-90's is because they made hundreds of thousands of those over the years, but in 91-92 they made only thousands. Also, so far only 1 guy has replied with a car like mine, but it even has different interior, so not an exact match.
Oh ok, I didn't notice the brake lights not being on. Nice patch, too. My friends Peugot couldn't do that. The Pee-Goat, we used to call it. Funny car, rwd with a limited slip, and a small 4 banger.
Anyway, nice patch. Looking at the pic I'd say a modded 350 car did that, if I didn't know better.
I'm actually starting to think I'm going to look for a 88 GTA, becasue that's what I used to have, and I miss it. A gunmetal one would be perfect.
A GTA is a good way to go. Out of any year, they are usually the lowest produced model. The 305 isn't the preferred motor, but they can run well with a little help. The tpi versions are a better choice of course. Gunmetal Gray looks great on GTA's...........good luck with your search.
I recently purchased a beautiful firebird the other day. I couldn't figure it out for the life of me until i read this post. How helpful this has been i now know what i have. I have the same special edition fake gta as you have and absolutely love it and feel the same as you about it.
I am curious why my title reads firebird/formula tho... is that what yours reads?
The reason your title reads Firebird/Formula is that the Firebird and Formula share the same "model designation" in the VIN. Same as the Trans Am and GTA share that same model designation. It's the 5th digit of the VIN, S being Firebird and Formula, W being Trans Am and GTA.
These cars like mine are V8, and perform almost as well as a Formula or TA
Now THAT I would like to see. I guarantee that L03 couldnt hold a candle to my box stock 91 LB9/M5/N10/J65 Formula. Not in braking, not acceleration, not handling. And I see my car as an absolute dog. My last trip out to the track, it was in the 14.40s on street tires.
You know, it's funny I made this post 6 years ago. What's interesting though is that I have now had my car 15 years and have still never seen it's twin in person. I have been to several years of STARS, been to bigger cities like Tampa, Jacksonville and Orlando, cars shows in several states, etc. I know there were at least 200-300 built in 1992 EXACTLY like mine, but the closet I have seen in person are ones in other colors, never red, or if it's red, it's been a 6 banger. It's not a "rare" car, but it sure as hell aint common, especially anymore. As a side note, when I compared it to a Formy, I was talking 305 tpi, not L98. My buddy and I raced (informally) enough times with his 92 Formula 305 tpi auto to know it was barely faster than mine and I could actually beat him from 75-105 mph. My Bird is in no way a "performance" car, but it is fun to drive and I'm glad I bought it 15 years ago. And, yes Tim, it does say Formula on the title, but that was already explained in an above post. Good luck with yours Tim, what color is it?
when I compared it to a Formy, I was talking 305 tpi, not L98.
I understand that. As I mentioned in my previous post, my 91 IS an LB9 car, and if you were closer, I would be happy to show you the MULTIPLE CAR LENGHTS I would put on a stock or near stock L03, especially an automatic car. The 92 you mentioned was more than likely a peanut cammed, single cat automatic. Dont group all 305s together in the same bunch. Pull up next to a factory L98 cammed, N10 exhaust, 5-speed 305 TPI....and youll see that theyre not all created equal. Mine goes mid-14s bone stock, 139,xxx miles and hard street tires in the Phoenix desert heat. To me its an absolute rat, but strong in its day. Stock automatic L03 cars go 16s at best. Ive NEVER seen one run better, and ive owned well over a dozen thirdgens over the last 15+ years
I have to say this site hasn't changed much, the main reason why I hardly come here anymore. Too many haters and aholes always trying to start something OR prove something to THEMSELVES. If you'll notice this thread started and is about finding exact duplicates of my car. IT IS NOT about the performance or lack of that the LO3 has or doesn't have. I could give a crap less about that since my car is STILL 90% original and was never made to be a bad boy or street racer. My one comment was only "These cars like mine are V8, and perform almost as well as a Formula or TA" in answer to some other aholes comment about a brakestand or something....again, nothing to do with the original post. Try sticking to the context and keep your unproveable comments to yourself.
Unprovable? I guarantee any member on this site can vouch for the performance potential (or lack of) of the L03. Im not bragging, as I said these cars were good in their day performance wise, but by todays standards, half of the family minivans and econobox sedans will outrun most stock thirdgens. That doesnt change the fact that I love these cars. Theyre not only fun to drive, theyre great to look at. Ive owned over a dozen of them. I have nothing to prove. I built a 63 Dart that was a consistent 10.60 footbrake car with iron heads and a 360. I got bored with it. So if you think im coming on here "bragging" about my 14 second 305, youre wrong. You were the one that claimed to run close to LB9 cars with your L03. I simply informed you theyre not all created equal. If im an a-hole for commenting on a discussion forum, you need to think again. If you cant handle the truth, perhaps youre the a-hole
Mine's a 91, 305 TBI, 273 Limited Slip diff, 180,000+ miles , daily driver. Used to look a lot like yours. I have done a lot of appearance mods of late, re-badging it as an SSA (Showroom Stock group A, the warm up race at SCCA Trans Am events).
Removed the front airdam as it was damaged when my ex-girlfriend bought it for me in 2008.
Converted the gray interior to red and black (2002 camaro SS seats, custom sail panels).
Oh yeah, and I recently painted the tailights to look more like my '69 455 muncie 4 speed custom bird i built in the '80's.
Still have the original taillights in case i change my mind!
Last edited by TRANSSPORT; 06-01-2015 at 02:40 AM.
Reason: typo
I bought a VERY late 91 Firebird W68 new at the dealership. The 92's were on the lot and my 91 was leftover stock. It was white with gold 15" crosslace rims with tan interior, V6 and T-Tops. It had the silver firebird emblems, but when i saw the 92's had gold i went to the parts dept to buy a set to match my rims.
Actually the W68 was at least also available in 1990, it was the same treatment, the Ground effects from the Trans Am but with the Base Hood & Base Spoiler. These are much more unusual, but still almost 9000 made in 1990...
I personally own 2 W68 1989 Firebirds, a 1990 and a 1992. I never even thought of them as being any sort of uncommon because they were always so easy to find.
I personally own 2 W68 1989 Firebirds, a 1990 and a 1992. I never even thought of them as being any sort of uncommon because they were always so easy to find.
Hi AmorgetRS, good to hear from you on this subject. I recently bought the Firebird redbook. Like the Camaro whitebook, it lists all the option and codes and gives a brief synopsis of the new ones. W68 was reintroduced in 1989. The book states
"The W68 Sport Appearance package, available on the Firebird, included the Trans Am Aero front and rear bumper extensions, foglamps, and moldings and required the 5.0 liter TBI v8."
Which would make both the XS and SSA exceptions to that rule if the statement is factual. Obviously that requirement (if it existed) was dropped at some point. I was wondering if you could tell us about your 2 89 W68 cars, engine type build date etc.
Originally Posted by okfoz
I thought they had them in 1989 too, but was not sure... I know in 1988 they had the Z20 Firebird that was really rare...
I am also interested in this 88 Z20 okfoz. What exactly are we talking about here? I've yet to come across this model. Details please.
Hi AmorgetRS, good to hear from you on this subject. I recently bought the Firebird redbook. Like the Camaro whitebook, it lists all the option and codes and gives a brief synopsis of the new ones. W68 was reintroduced in 1989. The book states
"The W68 Sport Appearance package, available on the Firebird, included the Trans Am Aero front and rear bumper extensions, foglamps, and moldings and required the 5.0 liter TBI v8."
Which would make both the XS and SSA exceptions to that rule if the statement is factual. Obviously that requirement (if it existed) was dropped at some point. I was wondering if you could tell us about your 2 89 W68 cars, engine type build date etc.
I am also interested in this 88 Z20 okfoz. What exactly are we talking about here? I've yet to come across this model. Details please.
W68 RPO was not used on anything except the Base Firebird, the trans Am had WS4.. The Same Ground effects were used as the Trans Am.
In 1988, The camaro RS for a partial year had a low-rise wing type spoiler similar (but narrower) than the Firebird Spoiler. It looks like a shorty 91-92 High-rise spoiler used on the Z28.
That same year the Base Firebird came with an option for wheel spats, and a spoiler (not a wing) that was similar (but taller) than the Camaro spoiler.
THis was not an aftermarket conversion, it was available directly through Pontiac/GM as RPO Z20
In 1988, The camaro RS for a partial year had a low-rise wing type spoiler similar (but narrower) than the Firebird Spoiler. It looks like a shorty 91-92 High-rise spoiler used on the Z28.
Hi AmorgetRS, good to hear from you on this subject. I recently bought the Firebird redbook. Like the Camaro whitebook, it lists all the option and codes and gives a brief synopsis of the new ones. W68 was reintroduced in 1989. The book states
"The W68 Sport Appearance package, available on the Firebird, included the Trans Am Aero front and rear bumper extensions, foglamps, and moldings and required the 5.0 liter TBI v8."
Which would make both the XS and SSA exceptions to that rule if the statement is factual. Obviously that requirement (if it existed) was dropped at some point. I was wondering if you could tell us about your 2 89 W68 cars, engine type build date etc.
Sure, both are 2.8 V-5 with T-5s.
White one - 4/89 Production Date, hard top, grey interior
Black one - 2/89 Production Date, t-tops, black interior
Both are really just standard Thirdgens. The white one didn't have rear defrost which is weird to see in WA, so I suspect it was an Arizona car originally but I have no proof of that. Neither of them have XS or SSA badging, but just had the standard Firebird fender emblems.
White one - 4/89 Production Date, hard top, grey interior
Black one - 2/89 Production Date, t-tops, black interior
Both are really just standard Thirdgens. The white one didn't have rear defrost which is weird to see in WA, so I suspect it was an Arizona car originally but I have no proof of that. Neither of them have XS or SSA badging, but just had the standard Firebird fender emblems.
Thank you for taking the time to post this info. As you are aware, I have been researching these w68 cars (in particular the original XS and SSA offerings) for a few months now. my theory on
The statement in the Firebird Redbook indicates that w68 was initially a package that required the 305 TBI v8. Every badged XS and SSA that has surfaced so far have been v6's. Your 2 cars are proof that the restriction had as long a life span as the offering on these 2 models. Thanks to your input we KNOW for sure that unbadged W68 cars could be ordered on V6 Firebirds built in 1989, the second half of the model run.
Originally Posted by okfoz
W68 RPO was not used on anything except the Base Firebird, the trans Am had WS4.. The Same Ground effects were used as the Trans Am.
The quote in the book did not state that W68 "included the Trans Am" It said that W68 "included the Trams Am spoilers, on the base Firebird (only)" Sorry if that was unclear, I quoted it word for word for accuracy in the original post and rephrased it here.
Originally Posted by okfoz
In 1988, The camaro RS for a partial year had a low-rise wing type spoiler similar (but narrower) than the Firebird Spoiler. It looks like a shorty 91-92 High-rise spoiler used on the Z28.
I know the one you are talking about. At one point I considered buying the low rise (Camaro) wing and the High rise wing so I could change the look of my car at will. Problem is, the Camaro and Firebird have different mounting points, so the whole hatch or at least hatch trunk plate (for lack of a better word) would have to be changed to make it work.
Originally Posted by okfoz
That same year the Base Firebird came with an option for wheel spats, and a spoiler (not a wing) that was similar (but taller) than the Camaro spoiler.
THis was not an aftermarket conversion, it was available directly through Pontiac/GM as RPO Z20
This is extremely exciting to me! It proves (to me anyway) that Pontiac was indeed thinking 2nd Gen retro in 1988, and lends credence to my interpretation of XS stated in my last post in the above thread.
I have a 91 firebird with the L03, MM5 T5 manual and 3.08 gears out back. She still has the stock drive train she was built with in august or September of 1990. Ordered from the same dealership I work at 24yrs later an my mentor (I'm a new service writer) who is the head service writer use to do PDI's (pre-delivery inspection) on all cars back in the the day actually did the PDI on my car in 1991.
She has 219,952miles on her as of tonight an I must say she runs like a top! Smokes yes due to the umbrella seals but which ones don't you kno? Guess in 1991 when the original owner ordered her he waited a few months an their was a delay on getting a 305 tpi with the t5 at the time so he opted for the TBI 305 instead to get the car sooner. He became handicapped an traded the car back In to my work in 1997 an I guess someone he knew bought it. But when that someone bought the car they didn't take care of her at all.
Turns out the 2nd owner became a tweeker on drugs, scraped the car on a guard rail an screwed up the drivers fender an made the hood fold. Yeah she hadn't been taken care of.
Some kid bought her in 08 an then drove it from 195,000miles to 217,000 an then AGAINNNN by some fate idk traded the car BACK into my dealership I work at in January of this year! 3 times in the cars life it came from an left Clyde Revord Buick gmc pontiac.
I bought her as whole sale since she's not in good shape.
She needs both power window motors replaced, the headlight buckets an hinge mechanisms replaced due to pot metal an broken apart. The headlight motors themselves work awesome but can't fold then down due to the hinges on the buckets being screwed up.
Also needs new fenders, hood, drivers door, new TTOP bar and seals, the cooling fans are messed up so she has hit 225deg. Theirs more but I can't think off the top of my head. I drive her everyday which I like. Bought it for $600 I mean can't beat a 5spd an a v8 for that.
Apparently I guess they built around 2,500-2,900 5spd cars in 91 an all I've ever seen from that year is 6 bangers which makes me think I wonder how many v8s were made with the v8. Yeah she ain't special just a TBI 305 but oh well. I want to find a tpi car but you kno how that goes. One day haha. Anyways she is a w68 car I do believe but thought I'd share with y'all :-)
I have a 91 firebird with the L03, MM5 T5 manual and 3.08 gears out back. Yeah she ain't special just a TBI 305 but oh well. I want to find a tpi car but you kno how that goes. One day haha.
People forget that the 305 TBI was the standard engine in the Trans Am for about 3 years in the mid 80's. Min e's got over 180,000 and I drive it 50 miles round trip to work 5 days a week. Best part of my day! Enjoy your W68!
This is extremely exciting to me! It proves (to me anyway) that Pontiac was indeed thinking 2nd Gen retro in 1988, and lends credence to my interpretation of XS stated in my last post in the above thread.
I believe Classic Industries makes all of the reproduction pieces for the Z20... I have contemplated getting a set... but not sure what I would do with them...
Apparently I guess they built around 2,500-2,900 5spd cars in 91 an all I've ever seen from that year is 6 bangers which makes me think I wonder how many v8s were made with the v8. Yeah she ain't special just a TBI 305 but oh well. I want to find a tpi car but you kno how that goes. One day haha. Anyways she is a w68 car I do believe but thought I'd share with y'all :-)
1991 5 Speeds Firebirds According to Compnine - about 95% complete.
2386 L03
747 LH0 (V6)
1080 LB9
Figure about 5% more on those numbers...
Edit: Also note that the above numbers do NOT include the convertibles.
01-07-2007, 09:05 PM
