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Old 04-19-2008, 02:44 PM   #1
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Why did they make Crossfire Injection

I'm sure this has been talked about before, but I have been doing some research on the CFI and from what I found, it seems like it was kind of pointless.

I have the Firebird & Trans-Am Quicksilver Supercar series book, that basically talks about the concept and production of the thirdgen firebird starting with the 82 model. There is a section about the CFI and what it was used. Of course to have better response and fuel economy than a regular carb setup...but when you look into the design of it, it doesn't really make sense.

It says the throttle bore was 1.81 inches and it was the biggest they could go to get good fuel atomization and distribution at low speeds. Also 1 TBI unit is 275 CFM so both together would be 550 CFM. It compares this to a quadrajet carb which is 700 CFM. Not sure what year carb, or if they were all rated that...it doesn't say. Keep in mind that the CFI setup was exactly the same for the Corvette and F-Body even though one is a 350, and the other is a 305.

The book then mentions the 68-69 Z28 crossram manifold that never made production. Engineers thought about doing the same thing, but with 2 throttle bodies instead of carbs. Then it says that the engineers don't understand why long evenlength passages to each port would be beneficial.
They are engineers...shouldn't they know how or why something works the way it does if they design it??? Anyway, it says that on the suction stroke there is a "ram" effect that can pack a larger air-fuel mixture into the cylinder bore.

Then it mentions the smaller intake ports. Anyone who has or seen these knows that the intake ports are much smaller than the ports in the head. They claim it creates the highest velocity of air and creates a lot of torque. This is why these engines run out of air at 4000+ RPM's. So is the high torque of these engines supposed to make the car feel faster?? The book even says "it's a manifold you can feel in everyday driving".

Multi port fuel injection was already around at this time, the book goes on to say that TBI was much cheaper...and even with the ECM and everything to regulate fuel there still was a problem with getting an even air-fuel mixture to each cylinder head. Since it was still a wet fuel delivery system just like carbs...and the configuration of the intake and throttle bodies led to fuel pooling up in the intake manifold floor. The book claims that TBI is good for fuel economy and low emissions. Besides all the technical stuff there is more.

the CFI 305 compression ratio was upped from 8.6 to a normal carbed car to 9.5. The 350 version was left at 9.0. Also the CFI cars got a different cam than the same carbed versions.

Also the CFI cars got newer catalytic converters. Most cars used the standard pellet type, but the CFI cars got a newer honeycomb type that had less restriction than the other kind. However due to the exhaust routing on the F-Car and it's smaller diameter tailpipes and mufflers, the flow of the newer converter barley offset the restrictions of the exhaust.

With all of this new stuff, the CFI TA only put out 20 HP more than a standard 4 barrel TA. So would it not be possible to bump the compression up, change the cam, and change the exhaust in the carbed TA and get near the same HP numbers?? Granted you have more spark and timing control on the CFI due to the ECM...but basically that is the only difference...and of course the restrictive intake system. In fact, in the book both the 4barrel and CFI cars make 240lbs of torque with the CFI peaking at 2400 RPMs...400 more than the 4barrel.

The corvette got 200 HP and 285lbs of torque. I would say the only reason for this is displacement alone....since it got the exact same setup as the F-Body. Of course it got a specific cam as well due to the extra displacement.
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Old 04-19-2008, 03:13 PM   #2
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

I think you answered your own question and the reason GM dropped it.
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Old 04-19-2008, 05:59 PM   #3
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

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I think you answered your own question and the reason GM dropped it.
Well, if the reason was better fuel economy they could have used regular TBI. If the CFI was so prone to failure and people hated it so much later down the road why even use a "complicated" system like this?

When you really look at what was available and what the CFI was capable of you might wonder why it was even developed. Some people say it was just an "inbetween" from carbed engines to TPI. I have also read that CFI was capable of more than what the engineers had in mind when compared to TPI. I don't know...I was hoping someone could shed some light on it. It's kind of an interesting topic with a lot of misconceptions.

I have also read a couple articles about an '85 or later Corvette that was equipped with CFI that was almost like 300 horses that was used in some race circuit. I've read about it in corvette books and magazines, however other than a mention of it, that is all I know. The articles didn't go into detail on what was done to the engine or any other upgrades if any. I thought maybe it was a typo and they meant TPI engine since CFI was discontinued after '84, but I've seen it in other publications also so it makes me wonder.

Maybe there was potential in the CFI that the engineers knew about but didn't want it to overshadow the development of TPI that was supposed to be superior.
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Old 04-19-2008, 06:27 PM   #4
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

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Why did they make Crossfire Injection?
The world may never know...



Back in 1982, that was THE shiznit. Its like when the single TBI came out later on, it was the "new" thing to have. Most people didnt buy these cars and hack at them. Lots just wanted a new, shiny Firebird. But I dont think 20 years from now people will talk about a TPI style setup like we do about the CFI now.


Oh by the way, never, EVER buy a CFI car that needs to be restored without the CFI running. I am about to drive this car over a cliff. Wait a minute... I can't. IT WONT RUN! I wouldn't really care if it wasn't original to the Pace Car.
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Old 04-19-2008, 06:33 PM   #5
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

well maybe it was the concept of dual carbs but fuel injected. Plus if they are clearenced for flow blah blah blah it's supposed to be pretty nice. Funny thing is every one hates it but all the talk in TBI section now is how to take two L03 TBI or 454 TBI and get two on or making a mono blade. Talking about reinventing the wheel.
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Old 04-19-2008, 09:15 PM   #6
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

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The world may never know...

Oh by the way, never, EVER buy a CFI car that needs to be restored without the CFI running. I am about to drive this car over a cliff. Wait a minute... I can't. IT WONT RUN! I wouldn't really care if it wasn't original to the Pace Car.
Couldn't be more true!!! Mine runs but only because of drastic measures. Tpi comming soon.
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Old 04-19-2008, 09:44 PM   #7
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

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Also 1 TBI unit is 275 CFM so both together would be 550 CFM. It compares this to a quadrajet carb which is 700 CFM.
That's not necessarily accurate. The C.C. Quadrajet is limited to about 600 CFM due to a tab that doesn't allow the secondarys to open all the way. It can be modified. There is a tech article on this site.
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Old 04-19-2008, 09:44 PM   #8
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

1982TA I'm sure you've checked out the Crossfire Forum ( http://www.crossfire.homeip.net )to find out more informative information on the CFI setup.One misnomer the book you quoted is the '67-'69 Crossram Intake - it did make production but didn't come installed on the 302 from the factory it came in the trunk or was available over the dealer counter.

On the CFI setp itself yes the intake is poorly designed and poorly made.But most of these imperfections can be corrected.I've port matched mine to the heads and cleaned up the runners(also cleaned up all the casting flash).

The next problem CFI motors have are lack of fuel pressure and vacuum leaks.Factory states 9-12 PSI is adqquate fuel pressure but more like 14-18 is what's needed.Upgrading the fuel pump to a '85 TPI version is the most recommended.The TBI units themselves are prone to thrittle shaft wear from lack of bearings.This can be remedied but rebulld (DCS does this but I have to find Tom's website).And the TBI can be bored and plates replaced safely to a 2" bore.

After this is the exhaust because other than the convertor it shared the LG4's exhaust.Just by changing to L69 or good TPI exhaust manifold/y-pipe cat and cat back you'll let the engine breathe immensly better.

The cam is very close to the one used in the L69 more soo than to the LG4's.And the other thing is the deepest factory gear for the LU5 was the 3.23(my '83 has this -was G92 for '83).I've done the manifold mods and upgraded my ignition and she really responds well.Check out the CFI forum for more.But I agree the CFI setup was used as a stopgap till the TPI was fully certified(IMHO).
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Old 04-19-2008, 10:11 PM   #9
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

thanks for the info...my '82 TA had all of the CFI components removed. I've been trying to piece it all back together for some time now...I still don't have everything. I hope I don't run into a lot of problems trying to put everything back the way it was from factory. Even my dash harness was cut up and the ALDL port was removed! I have no idea why...since it could stay in the car as is with a carb setup. My AC was removed as was the cruise control stuff. I only have a partial engine harness and I don't have the hood induction unit. At least I have the aircleaner though
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Old 04-20-2008, 07:24 AM   #10
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

You are most welcome for the info as I'm still learning about mine.I know you're trying to do more of a restoration so original look is what you want.That's why I suggested using the L69 exhaust (manifolds/y-pipe especially) and you can get around the 4 bolt flange that the LU5 cars didn't use.And then you have the N10 dual muffler setup that you see on most LU5 cars but it was an option (I don't think it was a required one with the LU5).I'm staying with exhaust manifolds for a few reasons and that's one along with not wanting the hassles of headers.

It's the same with the manifold mods it's something you can do that can't or won't be seen.But it makes for a VERY noticeable difference.

On your wire harness that always baffles me why people cut them when they can so easily be removed.But all the harness in the interior isn't in the way and doesn't take much weight(unless you are building an all out drag or road course car).

The one good thing on the T/A's air induction unit is it was used on both CFI and carb cars unlike the Z28 where it was only use with CFI.So at least that gives you more chances of finding one.

Good luck and I'm glad to hear I could be of some help.
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Old 04-20-2008, 11:21 AM   #11
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

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The one good thing on the T/A's air induction unit is it was used on both CFI and carb cars unlike the Z28 where it was only use with CFI.So at least that gives you more chances of finding one.

Good luck and I'm glad to hear I could be of some help.
The only difference between the induction unit of the carb and CFI cars is the opening that meets with the air cleaner. On carb cars it's round, but on CFI cars it's more of a diamond shape. I'm pretty sure you cannot interchange the rubber boot to make it work...but I could be wrong.

I really just need to find a donor car with CFI that hasn't been messed with. My car is just missing so much stuff under the hood, and I wouldn't even know how to route everything. Trying to piece all this stuff together is a PITA. I'd rather just have everything all at once and be able to transfer everything over.

I have a 406 small block chevy in it right now...I've thought about keeping it and running CFI, but I'm not sure how to run the knock sensor since these engines didn't have one...and the issue with the distributor having to be lengthened. I really don't want to mess with that stuff. I've been thinking of running a corvette engine in it that had CFI...granted any 350 would probably work. I really don't care about the 406 anyway...I don't race the car or anything like that. Like I said...I'd like to keep a stock appearance, or use parts from around the same years as my car. I've been thinking of using a corvette engine just as like a "what if" type thing...like if GM actually put a 350 in the car to begin with and carried it over to the corvette in '84. Might be lame to some...but I'm not racing the car so having it not be the fastest doesn't matter to me.
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Old 04-20-2008, 06:22 PM   #12
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

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The next problem CFI motors have are lack of fuel pressure and vacuum leaks.Factory states 9-12 PSI is adqquate fuel pressure but more like 14-18 is what's needed.Upgrading the fuel pump to a '85 TPI version is the most recommended.
Ya tell me about it,I just learned this the hard way on my 82 LU5

Great thread BTW and I HIGHLY recommend that quicksilver book LOADS of 1982 bird info.
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Old 04-20-2008, 06:24 PM   #13
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

You lost me on having the distributor lenghtened.If you are running a SBC 406 the deck height is the same for the 305 isn't it?Even the BBC distributor interchanges with SBC except for the tall deck BBC(that i know of).

On the CFI forum,as you probably know,there are many running stroked 350s with the CFI and running in the low 13's to high 12's.But I understand where you're coming from as to just enjoy her closer to original.I'm lucky my '83 was unmolested for the most part just very neglected for a few years.The 350 swap from the same era sounds like a good idea.The intake was the same '82-'83 and '84(except for balance holes).And for GM to use the same for the 305 and the 350 with those 2/3 size ports is beyond me.

If you could find a complete donor it would be so much easier.But another idea would be to use a LO3 donor for the harness as it's very close to a LU5 car.On the air cleaner a LU5 T/A used the same air cleaner as a LU5 Z28 hence the diamond shaped hood seal.
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Old 04-20-2008, 06:48 PM   #14
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

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You lost me on having the distributor lenghtened.If you are running a SBC 406 the deck height is the same for the 305 isn't it?Even the BBC distributor interchanges with SBC except for the tall deck BBC(that i know of).
I don't know...I've been told that the distributor needs lengthened for some reason. Not sure why, but there was a member here that did a 406 CFI setup and I'm pretty sure that is what he said he had to do. I could be wrong. Other than that though, how would I hook up a knock sensor to the 400 block? They didn't have provisions for a knock sensor since everything was carb back then. If there isn't a lot of modifications to be done for the 400 I'd probably keep it...

Quote:
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On the CFI forum,as you probably know,there are many running stroked 350s with the CFI and running in the low 13's to high 12's.But I understand where you're coming from as to just enjoy her closer to original.I'm lucky my '83 was unmolested for the most part just very neglected for a few years.The 350 swap from the same era sounds like a good idea.The intake was the same '82-'83 and '84(except for balance holes).And for GM to use the same for the 305 and the 350 with those 2/3 size ports is beyond me.
Yah, I thought that was kind of strange for the intake to be the same for both engines. I've thought about using the X-Ram, but I've heard mixed results from people using it... plus it seems kind of expensive. I've read other people just porting the original intake and getting good results. Tom400CFI is the one I talked to who did the CFI setup on the 400. I think he used the stock intake and ported it. I'm pretty sure he said I had to lengthen the distributor also.

Quote:
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If you could find a complete donor it would be so much easier.But another idea would be to use a LO3 donor for the harness as it's very close to a LU5 car.On the air cleaner a LU5 T/A used the same air cleaner as a LU5 Z28 hence the diamond shaped hood seal.
I've been trying to find a cheap parts car or something with CFI. Haven't been so successful. Hard part is trying to find one near my location as I don't have the means to have a car transported to my house. Also it seems every time I find someone with CFI components to sell, they always back out of the deal...

As far as the L03, isn't the L03 just a regular TBI car? I read somewhere that you could use the TBI harness and get a second harness that splits the IAC signal to both throttle bodies. On the regular TBI cars, do they have a single throttle body with 2 injectors? How else would I have 2 hook ups for the injectors for a CFI car?
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Old 04-20-2008, 07:03 PM   #15
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

I as well have a 83 CFI TA and have many pictures of every part of the car during the 4yrs and still counting restoration. The CFI is really not a bad setup once you get all the flaws corrected.(but then again I have always liked the underdogs) If you need any pictures of the engine, exhaust, harness, ect please do not hesitate to PM me I will be glad to help out any way I can. I hope to have my car running, painted and back together within the next two years if all goes well and I can get more than a few hours a week to work on it.
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Old 04-20-2008, 07:52 PM   #16
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

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If you need any pictures of the engine, exhaust, harness, ect please do not hesitate to PM me I will be glad to help out any way I can. I hope to have my car running, painted and back together within the next two years if all goes well and I can get more than a few hours a week to work on it.
Yah, I probably could use some pictures to see how everything is routed. I haven't really started my "restoration" yet. My garage isn't big enough to start tearing the car apart yet Plus I'm still trying to get as many parts as possible before I start to change everything out. My wife thinks I'm crazy for wanting to get parts and then I just leave them in the boxes. Right now I've been mostly concentrating on interior stuff, since that is the hardest to find right now. The way I see it, engine stuff will be around a lot longer than the hard to find interior stuff. There isn't a lot of aftermarket for the early thirdgens, and most of the stuff you can get I think is shoddy quality. Luckly my interior isn't trashed just a little faded. I'd like to get new door panels, carpeting, etc...problem is nobody makes any in the factory material, and I've heard some bad things with reproduction carpeting, sail panels, visors, etc...
I've seen other cars with the after market door panels and seat covers, and I don't like the Velour material. Plus the factory door panels have almost a marbled look to the vinyl (at least in the dark charcoal color) and the repro's don't have the same look, let alone the same color's and cloth material.

I'm just more picky with everything being as close to factory as possible.
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Old 04-21-2008, 10:42 AM   #17
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

I think ultimately the CFI was a stepping stone to get to the TPI. If you consider why the TPI works with its long tubes and the the way the CFI was designed, basically CFI has some things in common with the TPI sstem from 1987-1992 Basically both were designed for torque down low as acceleration is more important to most people than top end.

True GM had multi-port FI as far back as 1976, but the technology I do not think was there for the masses on an inexpensive system. The first multiport that I am aware of was in the 1976 Cadillacs... Ultimately it came down to cost.

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Old 04-22-2008, 07:49 PM   #18
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

Want the simple answer? It was a gimmick. Looking at GM fuel injection in general, the TBI setups were cutting edge. They knew the TBI wasn't able to support the engine so someone came up with using two on a crossram intake, feeding off of nostalgia and history, while running with a new trend. It didn't matter that it wasn't fast, because nothing was fast back then. Obviously GM knew what was up, just look at the L69, the death of CFI, and the home run of TPI. Even the early TPI cars are shaky though... They got much better over the course of production. The technology of fuel injection was improving very quickly.
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Old 04-23-2008, 09:42 AM   #19
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

The LU5 is still in my '83 TA as well. Let me know if you need some pictures as I've been taking a bunch in order to remove the aftermarket electronics a previous owner has installed. You can see some of it in the following picture running across the firewall held with tie-wraps:
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The engine starts and will eventually idle but it's ruff and will need some help. The 1983 service manuel is going to be a great help.
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Old 04-25-2008, 09:54 AM   #20
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

Tpiselli you are doing one of the best steps that often gets overlooked in any type of diassembly - documentation especially with pictures.Next one to me is bag and tag components/fastners.One of the most difficult parts you are going to find are the hold downs for the air cleaner.I dropped one and it took me months on Ebay to find one to replace it (actually ended up buying an air cleaner assembly to get it).And you're right the '83 factory service manual is a great help.

I've upgraded my ignition but nothing that couldn't be hidden or changed back if wanted/needed.I switched to later dual electric fans but stored the shroud sections and fan/clutch assembly.Also I added LT1 finned aluminum valve covers but painted black to fit the time (Vette's CFI L83 used these).But again I have the original stamped steel covers boxed.I need to take new pictures of mine to show these changes.

Okfoz and Drew make very valid points about CFI.When they were new there were problems that even GM service techs found it hard to deal with.Then as time passed a lot of CFI setups were swapped to either carb or even TPI.Personally I think because most people don't want to take the time to understand them.But to hack the harness when it's so easy to remove is just a bad practice IMHO.
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Old 04-26-2008, 01:05 AM   #21
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

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I've been trying to find a cheap parts car or something with CFI. Haven't been so successful. Hard part is trying to find one near my location as I don't have the means to have a car transported to my house. Also it seems every time I find someone with CFI components to sell, they always back out of the deal...

As far as the L03, isn't the L03 just a regular TBI car? I read somewhere that you could use the TBI harness and get a second harness that splits the IAC signal to both throttle bodies. On the regular TBI cars, do they have a single throttle body with 2 injectors? How else would I have 2 hook ups for the injectors for a CFI car?
1982TA

Here is a scan from my 1982 Camaro Service Manual. It is for the LU5 engine. Note that the IAC circuits are tapped. One set of signals operates both units. So you should be able to splice a regular TBI harness to generate the second IAC signal.

Don't all the later TBI cars have two sets of injectors, one set on each side. If so all the injectors on one side run off the same signal, at least that is how it looks in the schematics in the Haynes manual.

Also attached is a shot of my 82 Camaro CFI engine, with some of the items removed. I am getting ready to pull the valve covers and maybe the exhaust manifolds to replace the gaskets.... You can see most of the engine harness in this picture, but not all of them.

This car has A/C and Cruise Control. If you look closely on the right side of the photo, you can see the two throttle cables.

As Coolram62 suggests, I need to do a better job of documenting this this as I take it apart. I have a number of photos, but not a complete set.



Dave
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Old 04-28-2008, 09:17 AM   #22
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

I think I now know wwhy they droped the CFI, balancing the two sides would be a bugger. If you notice As far as I can recollect Everything AFTER the CFI used a single activation for the butterflies. Granted they might have used several butterflies but there all interconnected. That could create huge amounts of problems getting them balanced when they are disconnected like that.. I have a freind with a dual carb setup and he was ALWAYS messing with the balance between them. I just ran into a CFI car that someone swapped in a Carb at a junkyard, I had to check if it was an aluminum hood...

John
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Old 04-28-2008, 09:47 AM   #23
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

I think they put it on there just so we wouldn't feel guilty about ripping it off and putting on a Performer and a 780!
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Old 07-09-2008, 02:58 AM   #24
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

I wish I still had my ’83 crossfire car (it got destroyed in a hurricane, but I saved the whole top end), I’ve had a few 3rd gen ‘birds (including an L98), and the crossfire car _by far_ has the best low end and is the most fun on the street in near stock form, and with some minor mods averaged 10mpg better on the highway than either of my TPI cars or my LT1 car. The crossfire setup is now being modified to work in my K1500 truck… seems like the massive low end and good efficiency should be a perfect combination for the 350 in it.

Why? Simple… GM was under pressure to move their performance cars into the modern FI world and TPI was taking longer to develop and refine than they expected, so they a pile of basically off the shelf parts (the TBI’s were basically Cadillac parts) and put them together on a cool manifold. It looked cool, was cheap for them to develop and worked well for what it was/the constraints that they were under.

I ran mine with the stock harness and ecm, but if I was going to do it now I’d just convert a truck 747 or newer TBI setup to it, the better ecm would by far make up for any hassle/difficulty dealing with the harness or whatever.

Skip the stock exhaust… this setup responds _really_ well to ¾ or full length headers. I used headman ¾ length headers and made a custom y-pipe with 2 highflow cats, a flowmaster y and open exhaust. There is also some special magic about the exhaust note on the crossfire setup… I can’t explain it but even through the stock exhaust sounds throatier and richer than other setups.

Oh, and resist the urge to do something with the 3.23’s… even with 27” tall tires, my ’83 was happier with them than with the 3.42’s that I swapped in when I blew the 3.23’s up.
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Old 07-09-2008, 08:03 AM   #25
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

IIRC the 88+ LO3 cars used 2 Fuel Injectors... THe CFI used 2 Fuel injectors...

Has anyone ever considered using a TBI ECM & Wire harness and use a CFI intake with some LB9 heads or 305 Vortec Heads? It might be an interesting project... With a a little tuning I bet it would do pretty well...

John
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Old 07-09-2008, 04:54 PM   #26
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

So I'm looking through the September 2008 issue of Corvette Enthusiast and there's an article on troubleshooting the CrossFire engine (Two-Year Troubleshooting by Chris Petris). In the beginning of the article they lay out the CrossFire, two throttle bodies each with its own injector feeding four cylinders, and compare it to a TPI engine, one throttle body with one injector per port. As we all know the TPI is a batch fire system where 4 injectors are fired simultaneously then the other four are fired. It turns out that the ECM for both systems only has two "drivers" which trigger the injectors to fire, with CFI its only one injector, for TPI its four injectors. So, in fact, the systems really are not that different from a fuel management perspective, just in the delivery.
It's some cool stuff and a good read.
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Old 07-09-2008, 06:45 PM   #27
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

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Originally Posted by okfoz View Post
Has anyone ever considered using a TBI ECM & Wire harness and use a CFI intake with some LB9 heads or 305 Vortec Heads? It might be an interesting project... With a a little tuning I bet it would do pretty well...

John
It's been done...sort of. I've read posts about running a CFI off a TBI ecm. I even saw a place to buy a wiring harness adapter to plug the CFI TBI's into the TBI ecm. I don't know about doing it with vortec heads though.

Was there any difference between the CFI heads and the LB9 heads?
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Old 07-09-2008, 09:45 PM   #28
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

1982TA - I am not too far away, just north of Detroit. I have resurrected my 83 crossfire from the dead and would be glad to help you out with what I have learned. Even better than pictures, you can see it in real High Def, I mean real life!!

I love this set up and would be glad to help as much as I can. I have learned a lot from the crossfire forum (even shared some posts with Coolram62), learned tons from the Pontiac service manual, and have a few buddies at work that were Pontiac techs back in the day that help and have no plans to abandon the crossfire - ever!

I have even been assembling parts to pull all of the original parts, engine and trans and drop in a 383 stroker with a ported and massaged intake and 2" bore throttle bodies. Would also be upgrading the ecm to the 7747 truck ecm to control the little guy.

Lots more to learn, but go to any F-body or regular show and I get soooo bored of TPI setups. A dime a dozen. The crossfire air cleaner and functional hood scoop is just cool as hell looking in my book and you are also talking about a fuel system that was probably made in less than 100,000 cars in the history of automotive production. That is what I call rare.

We can learn together man! Drop me a line any time!
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Old 07-10-2008, 12:35 AM   #29
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

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We can learn together man! Drop me a line any time!
Cool, thanks man! I'm still trying to get a CFI setup...There is a guy I've been talking with that has an 82 TA he is parting with a complete CFI setup. I told him I'm interested, but he hasn't been keeping in touch with me that often so we'll see if it actually happens. Seems evertime I find someone selling CFI, I never get any replies or can't keep in touch...
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Old 07-10-2008, 12:44 PM   #30
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

I will let you know if I come across one. Sometimes they show up on EBay or Craigslist.
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Old 07-15-2008, 10:21 PM   #31
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Im having a problem

The number 2 injector sometimes stops spitting fuel causing the firebird to die. I was wondering if anyone know what the problem might be? if its a big thing to fix or what

Last edited by mmalone33; 07-15-2008 at 10:25 PM.
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Old 07-15-2008, 11:48 PM   #32
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

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Why did they make Crossfire Injection
Crossram manifolds had quite the reputation back then. GM's CFI approach was good, but it of course could have been improved upon, and was more than likely rushed. I'd like to see a 350-SBC w/Edelbrock SY1 Crossram, ported throttle bodies, controlled by RBob's EBL....

Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 07-16-2008, 08:41 AM   #33
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Re: Im having a problem

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The number 2 injector sometimes stops spitting fuel causing the firebird to die. I was wondering if anyone know what the problem might be? if its a big thing to fix or what
Could be anything from a bad injector with a short, Bad power wire, bad ground, bad ECM... just have to start poking around...

John
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Old 07-18-2008, 02:31 AM   #34
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Re: Im having a problem

mmalone - did you check for ecm codes at all? It definitely sounds like the injector has failed, is plugged with debris or no power to the injector, but I guess it is possible the ecm could be failing as it sends the signal to fire.

And just because you get no codes doesn't necessarily mean everything is ok. I was having problems with my crossfire and it turns out that someone had put the wrong ecm in the car. I replaced the ecm and the car ran a ton better (also replaced the map sensor, fuel relay, coolant temperature sensor, O2 sensor and egr). All of these updates are almost mandatory if they haven't been updated in 25 years. They might not throw codes, but they are early technology that have aged and usually help when updated.

The other check should be checking your throttle position sensor. Off the top of my head I believe it should be at .525, however I would need to check my manual if you need the exact spec.

Definitely should hook up a volt meter to the leads going to the injectors to make sure you are getting power though, and make sure the injector is clean and clear.

Another usual must do is cleaning the idle air control valves (making sure not to get any cleaner in the electrical side).

The other good idea is to make sure the throttle bodies are balanced or synched. There is a procedure in the gm shop manuals and you can also find the information at the crossfire forum. I highly recommend visiting that site and posting over there as it is focused soley on crossfire issues.

None of my recommendations should be done before you test for power to the injectors and clean the injector to make sure it is free from debris. Once you know you have power and the injector is clear, try what I mentioned and you should see a noticable improvement.

The url for the crossfire forum is http://www.crossfire.homeip.net/
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Old 10-22-2008, 06:59 PM   #35
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

83 crossfire still running strong!!! (9.7 1/8 mile @70.64 mph) with a 2.090 60'
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Old 11-02-2008, 10:48 PM   #36
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

I cant believe I just found this web site. I have had my 83 Z28 for 15 years. Hey 82 trans Am I think I have a CFI off a 82/83 trans am I picked it up years ago for $5.00 dont know how good it is
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Old 11-02-2008, 11:19 PM   #37
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1982TA View Post
Cool, thanks man! I'm still trying to get a CFI setup...There is a guy I've been talking with that has an 82 TA he is parting with a complete CFI setup. I told him I'm interested, but he hasn't been keeping in touch with me that often so we'll see if it actually happens. Seems evertime I find someone selling CFI, I never get any replies or can't keep in touch...
I'm currently working on a 383 LT1 engine so I will be selling my whole entire Crossfire Motor if your interested... Edelbrock cam, headers, valve covers, double roller timing set, Accel cap and rotor, and many other goodies. Still taking on the best of them with this motor which I rebuilt 7 years ago ! 1996 Cobra, 2006 Mustang GT, 89 Iroc, 1991 Camaro RS, many, many imports !!
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:45 AM   #38
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

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I cant believe I just found this web site. I have had my 83 Z28 for 15 years. Hey 82 trans Am I think I have a CFI off a 82/83 trans am I picked it up years ago for $5.00 dont know how good it is
if you want to sell it, I'd be interested. Let me know!
----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERICSCHEVY View Post
I'm currently working on a 383 LT1 engine so I will be selling my whole entire Crossfire Motor if your interested... Edelbrock cam, headers, valve covers, double roller timing set, Accel cap and rotor, and many other goodies. Still taking on the best of them with this motor which I rebuilt 7 years ago ! 1996 Cobra, 2006 Mustang GT, 89 Iroc, 1991 Camaro RS, many, many imports !!
That setup look sweet! unless you want to get rid of the CFI components seperately, I have no use or room for another motor.

Last edited by 1982TA; 11-04-2008 at 11:47 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 11-04-2008, 04:49 PM   #39
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

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if you want to sell it, I'd be interested. Let me know!
----------


That setup look sweet! unless you want to get rid of the CFI components seperately, I have no use or room for another motor.
When the motor comes out, I'll hit you up.
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Old 09-08-2010, 01:34 PM   #40
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

I couldn't be happier with my crossfire. after I opened my ports http://pyro409.dyndns.org:5805/pictu...re%20ports.jpg put in 454 injectors, and added a megasquirt, it performs well. http://pyro409.dyndns.org:5805/pictu...re_mockup2.jpg

The twin pontiac 301 turbos come next with a pair of 305 TBI units on top.
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Old 09-08-2010, 05:37 PM   #41
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

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True GM had multi-port FI as far back as 1976, but the technology I do not think was there for the masses on an inexpensive system. The first multiport that I am aware of was in the 1976 Cadillacs... Ultimately it came down to cost.

John
Wasn't it 1975 with the Cosworth Vega? That car had a lot of firsts for GM when it came out.
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Old 09-08-2010, 09:27 PM   #42
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

When looking at Crossfire, you have to put it in context of its time period. Now, it looks uninspired and somewhat pointless. However, in its time, it was a desirable option. Clearly, the 3rd gens could have used another year of development before launch, but the new car was needed terribly, as excitement was in short supply, and the U.S. was in tough economic times, alot like now! GM was preparing the new single point tbi systems for much of its car lineup, and it was a natural to share this tech with Corvette and F car, as they were at the top of the heap. Carbs were almost more complicated than the tbi, given the emission and performance targets required. I owned a 4bbl/4spd 82, whle a cousin of mine and another friend each had Crossfire cars back in 82-84. Stock, my 4spd car would loose 2-3 car lenghts to a Crossfire car up to about 80mph. They were even after that. A stock lg4 just would not run with a cfi car around town. The more common lg4/auto cars were not in the same league as the cfi or 4 spd cars. Later, I added an open element air cleaner and cut my smog pump belt. Thereafter, I would run heads up with the Crossfire cars to 80, after which my car would slowly walk away. Finally, I bypassed the super restrictive cat on my car with a straight pipe from JC Whitney, of all places! Now, I could easily walk a Crossfire from any speed, and it was a real slaughter above 80 or so. My car would reach its 5000 rpm redline about the same time the Crossfire cars crossed 4500-4600 rpm. It was a real chore to get more than 4800 rpm out of them, while the lg4 would easily run into valve float at 5200 rpm at will. Even at that, these cars were competitive with other performance cars of the period. I was with my cousin on one occasion where we chased down and slowly passed a pristine 81 Turbo TA SE on top end, much to our and the TA pilot's surprise! Thanks, Rudy.

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Old 09-09-2010, 07:49 AM   #43
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

What else would you have used in 1982? You had a choice of carb or fuel injection. And there had to be a 'first' year.
Everyone knows TBI is a super simple, super reliable system but crossfire is pretty much the same thing and gets a bad rap?
I can tell you my crossfire runs just fine. In fact here's a vid of it I just took.
Run's pretty good for all original CFI that's 28 years old. (engine/CFI is for sale too)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2N1pT-iqLZ0
I can also tell you it move's the corvette pretty well. Better then the 10 year newer 92tbi firebird I have.
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Old 09-09-2010, 01:06 PM   #44
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

1) I am not sure about the cogsworth engine... I just know that the Cadillac had the injectors in 1976 as an option. I also want to think that same year Nissan 280Z also had the fuel injected (one injector per cyl) setup on their straight six.

2) I think the biggest problem with the CFI cars is the ECM, not 100% on this, but it was great technology for the day, unfortunately when you send things out to the lowest bidder... I actually drove a CFI car and I was absolutely shocked on how well it accelerated. I will admit it stated "350" on the windshield and the trans would not shift unless you floored it, but it really got up and went.

John
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Last edited by okfoz; 09-09-2010 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 09-09-2010, 02:43 PM   #45
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

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Originally Posted by 1982TA View Post
how would I hook up a knock sensor to the 400 block? They didn't have provisions for a knock sensor since everything was carb back then.
The knock sensor screws into the drain hole that every block has had.
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Old 09-09-2010, 03:58 PM   #46
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

Some years the drain hole can be smaller or larger, Since in all their wisdom GM actually used standard pipe threads, using a Brass Adapter works well. Since the Knock sensor works on a sonar type system by sensing knocks thru the water passages, it works fine in my experience

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Old 09-09-2010, 04:22 PM   #47
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

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I'm currently working on a 383 LT1 engine so I will be selling my whole entire Crossfire Motor if your interested... Edelbrock cam, headers, valve covers, double roller timing set, Accel cap and rotor, and many other goodies. Still taking on the best of them with this motor which I rebuilt 7 years ago ! 1996 Cobra, 2006 Mustang GT, 89 Iroc, 1991 Camaro RS, many, many imports !!
Thats a very cool looking motor regardless!
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Old 09-11-2010, 12:26 PM   #48
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

Quote:
Originally Posted by okfoz View Post
1) I am not sure about the cogsworth engine... I just know that the Cadillac had the injectors in 1976 as an option. I also want to think that same year Nissan 280Z also had the fuel injected (one injector per cyl) setup on their straight six.

2) I think the biggest problem with the CFI cars is the ECM, not 100% on this, but it was great technology for the day, unfortunately when you send things out to the lowest bidder... I actually drove a CFI car and I was absolutely shocked on how well it accelerated. I will admit it stated "350" on the windshield and the trans would not shift unless you floored it, but it really got up and went.

John
The orginal ECM's were pretty slow and lame, but they did work...

I've said this before, I've owned my crossfire TA (305 obviously), an L98, an LB9 car, as well as my '97 WS6 TA, and BY FAR the most fun on the street from stoplight to stoplight was the crossfire car.

They just have massive low end torque and even with tall tires and no gear (27" tall tires and 3.23) they will melt rubber and leave from a light better than most of what is on the road, TPI engine torque is lame in comparison. The second most fun would be the '97 WS6 (LT1 car) but that is because of it's 6 speed and 4.10 gears (it's nowhere near as much fun with the stock 3.42's or even 3.73's), followed by the L98, but it really wants more gear (same TH700r4 that the crossfire has, and 3.27 gears, close enough to the crossfire that it should be a fair comparison). The LB9 car, well, it's just hard to believe that it's a similar car, it's just slow no matter what (it's a mid 15 second car, the rest are all low to mid 13 second cars with minor work to them).
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Old 09-13-2010, 07:49 PM   #49
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

i just bought a 1982 z28 with 42000 mile cfi runs great all origanal no one has touched the car but a flow master exhaust. great shape funny engine to look at though haha
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Old 01-24-2011, 04:32 AM   #50
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Re: Why did they make Crossfire Injection

I have a 1983 Trans Am CFI with 62,000 miles and the KARR still runs like a tiger
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