scottmoyer

But they are very common on the Camaro side from 1987-1989. The majority of the 350s you see for sale in those years all have ttops. They are not rare by any sense.

okfoz

It seems that about half would be consistent with what I have seen...

John

TheExaminer

Well, it just makes sense that the car is less rigid with ttops instead of a steel top. Especially if the tops are removed, how would it NOT have an issue with body flex? I know it was an issue with the C4 Corvettes when the glass top was removed. I get the weight issue, and understand it, but my thought--right or wrong--has always been that most guys who wanted a 350 wanted a more rigid body to allow it to hold together better under cornering and acceleration. That's a separate issue from whatever industry or government weight standards that may have also limited production. My bet is it was probably a mixture of several factors, but those of us who own them now are glad they are rare, no matter why.

TheExaminer

So then are we saying that industry/government standards changed after 1989 in such a way as to limit interest or availability? But then, if guys bought them 87-89, why not 91-92 when they were technically still available? (Besides the looming 4th gen issue)

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

The weight reasons for the t-tops isn't a guess and is the only reason why t-tops weren't available. The information came from a higher up at Pontiac back during the development of the GTA.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

1990 was the introduction of air bags, which also caused a dash redesign, which both added weight (plus the speed density system) That weight pushed the Camaro over the top with the 350 and the t-tops.

TheExaminer

But that's kind of my point. It's not that they weren't available in 91-92 (at least in the Firebird if not the GTA) they were--I own one. You had to accept the GTA laces to get a 350/ttop, but there's not much issue with that. So other than waning interest due to the approach of 4th gen, what was the reason very very few 350/t's were ordered in 91-92? I don't guess it matters, just dry bones to chew on, but I'm still curious. It could be the word just didn't get out very much, and maybe sales people didn't press the issue as long as they had a 350 hardtop or 305/ttop customer with ready cash. Who knows.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

They only made ~1000 Formulas in 92, so the fact that ~200 of them had a 350/PW7/T-Top combo is actually pretty good in percentages.

TheExaminer

True. So then it looks like the 4th gen intro was what killed the overall numbers, of which ttops were a natural percentage. Interesting.....and also very good for me being the owner of one of those ~200!

scottmoyer

The 4th gen played no part in the car not having TTops with the 350. You're not understanding what's being said here. They weren't on the 1990-1992 cars because of the dash redesign and the airbag inclusion and other issues that added weight to the car. The additional weight put the car over CAFE standards and would have required a gas guzzler tax. The reason the Formula was able to get them was because they were a lighter car to begin with. If the only way to get them was with a lighter weight wheel, then that tells you right there that the entire reason had to do with weight. It had nothing to do with the 4th gen, it had nothing to do with waning interest, and it had nothing to do with body twist. Most cars are purchased off the dealer lot and if the dealer didn't order the 350 with the lighter wheels to get the 350, then the consumer didn't get the ttops!

Oh, and your comment that most people that wanted the 350 also wanted a more rigid body is incorrect. The TTops are something that people went to Chevrolet with as a requirement for the 5th gen. People want the tops. If someone wanted to spend the money for the engine, they also wanted to go all out and get the tops because both were "cool". Very few "wanted" the hardtop with the 350. People wanted the hard top because they didn't want to deal with leaks or rattles that were known to plague these cars.

TheExaminer

I don't think you are understanding what I'm saying either. I never said 4th gen was why 350/ttops were not available. What I said was, because 4th gen was on the way in, sales for thirdgen dipped in 1992 because people wanted to get the redesigned model (God knows why....), which resulted in fewer Formulas being made in 1992, which by extension resulted in fewer ttop/350's being made. Weight or no weight, it's not my point. Everyone knows you needed the GTA wheels to get ttops, and we all understand why. We're talking about two different things here. My original question was why are there so few ttop 350 Firebird Formulas from 1992. The answer is, the issues you raised caused a redesign and weight change that made getting the combo a little harder, AND the nearness of the 4th gen remake caused consumers to pocket their money for another year and get the new model. Therefore, because of all these things, there were only 1000 Formulas made in 1992 (as opposed to over 5000 in 1991) with only 200 that had the ttop and 350--for which I am eternally grateful..... Also, the ttops had leaks and rattles because of the greater torque of a 350, which the L98 is famous for. Possible with the V6 and 305, but worse with the 350. Which is exactly what I meant when I said some guys wanted a rigid roof. You just said the same thing I did, just in a different way. Body flex because of torque is part of what causes leaks and rattles. It's a matter of fact that Corvettes with the removable top had the same issues with the L98 and LT1.

okfoz

I think you missed my point...
1) The reason why GM did not offer some models with T-tops & 350 IE the Firebird from 1987-1988 and almost all cars (less the Formula) from 1990-1992, had nothing to do with body flex.
2) I am not disputing the fact that a convertible or T-top car would not flex and twist more,
3) If you follow the trail, and the fact that there are even 350 convertibles out there that do not suffer ill effects from the twisting of a stock engine. This suggests to me that that the fact was the T-top and convertible cars with a 350 would not meet CAFE standards, not some concern on GM's behalf to consider not installing T-tops.
4) Also consider that with the exception of 1990, every year the 350 was offered, there are examples of cars with the 350 and T-tops, so GM could care less about flex.

TheExaminer

Right, I don't disagree with any of that. But like I told Scott, there were two different issues on the table here. My original question was why there are so few in 1992 particularly, not so much 87-89 as he was widening it to for more general reasons. If you look at those years, you're dealing with totally different factors and much higher numbers. When it comes to 92 only, then you enter into the CAFE issue in addition to the fact that 4th gen was on the way, which hindered sales for that particular year. Also, my thought--right or wrong--was more that the customers themselves might steer away from 350/ttop (or be encouraged to do so by sales people who didn't have many of that package combo in the lot and wanted to move inventory) because of flex/leaks/rattles/rigidity factors, not so much GM themselves. I agree that they could care less once the sale is made. But clearly even in 92 some guys still wanted the 350 ttop because 200 were still made, and other years they ordered plenty of them. So I guess some thought that about it, and some didn't. That was my point, but I understand what you're saying--thx for the info and help.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

I think some confusion comes from your statement that so few t-tops/350 cars were made in 1992 (as a percentage) as compared to other years. I just don't think that is really true.

TheExaminer

No no, I didn't mean as a percentage, I just meant in raw numbers--200 of ANY car is a tiny amount--and my questions were specific to 92 generally. Either way, I'm very glad about it, because it means my car is very very rare (even if not super valuable). What I'd really like to know is of those 200, how many are still on the road, and what condition are they in? No way to know that I guess.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

That really isn't the same question though. If you asked why in 1992 the production numbers were so low, it's very simple. People were waiting for the 4th gen. This has nothing to do with t-tops.

TheExaminer

AAAAAAAHHHHGGGG! (That was a scream......) Yeah, I get that, and by extension, numbers of ttops with the L98 were also down proportionately as a result of the overall sales slump. Therefore, 200 were made, and that makes me happy. So if you have a 92 ttop 350 and you ask "why are there so few?" The answer will be a combination of CAFE and the intro of 4th gen. Man, this has been a super tough thread to communicate on. LOL We got off course when someone (I don't even remember who) brought the whole 87-89 issue in, and I think it was someone who just simply wanted to be a know it all and/or argue. Oh well, alls well that ends well.....

okfoz

In all honesty, 1990 marked pretty much the beginning of the end of the F-body. According to one source the 4th gen never took off like the 3rd Gen... In 1993 apparently there was less than 15,000 Firebirds made... when there was some 25,000 ish 1992 Firebirds made.
93 - 15,000
94 - 38,503
95 - 51059
96 - 30982
97 - 30,756
98 - 36209
99 - 31,826

When you look at 3rd gen production over the life of the series,
82 - 116364
83 - 74,884
84 - 128,304
85 - 95,880
86 - 110,463
87 - 88,623
88 - 62,467
89 - 64,406
90 - 20,553 (partial year)
91 - 51,860 (extended year)
92 - 25,180

Keep in mind that 90 & 91 were odd years, no 1990's were made in 1990, they stopped production Dec 31, 1989, and 1991 started in Jan or Feb of 1990...

If you take the the production from the normal time of year for the 1990-1991 normal crossover like it would have been every other year, the production figures would have looked a little more like this:

90 - 40,093
91 - 30,320
92 - 25,180

So if you look at the numbers and realize that the life cycle of the third gen was circling the drain, the 4th gen really was produced closer the average of the number of cars made in 90 & 91, never to reach the production of even 1989...

IMissMy86TA

I think this can all be explained with a single statement.... not many like 'dem pointy noses that is the same for 91 on...
Me..? I like the wedge shape of the front end from 82-90

okfoz

Even at the Trans Am nationals, if you break it down, it seemed that there was very few 93-97 Birds there this year... There were plenty, but not as many as the 98-02s...

90 GTA Black

I remember when the 93's came out. I had no desire to buy one whatsoever.

okfoz

The 93 Camaro looked like an overgrown GEO Storm, and the Firebird had such a long beak it looked out of proportion...

out of the entire Generation, I think the 98-02 Firebirds, specifically the Firehawk and WS6 cars looked the best...

IMissMy86TA

OMG you nailed it! yes not a fan...

loved the 85-89 best. Didnt care for the airbags of 99+

scottmoyer

This isn't how we do things on this forum. I didn't bring up the part of 87-89 to be a "know-it-all". It was brought up because you said, "I knew 350/ttop wasn't terribly common because of body flex, but had no idea how rare they were." I was making it known that body flex had absolutely nothing to do with it and they were very common from 1987-1989 on the Camaro side. Both cars are basically the same, so if body flex wasn't an issue on the Camaro, then it wasn't an issue on the Firebird.

On this forum, you will be corrected if you are wrong. There is too much misinformation out there (like you saying no 350/ttops was because of body flex) and we are trying to be as accurate as possible. You're welcome!

okfoz

1) as a moderator I have no time to use tact, now that i think about it, my best friend tells me I have no tact anyways... not sure how I feel about that...
2) what Scott said

GCrites80s

2 more things that hurt 4th gen sales:

SUVs

Insurance rates

elijflo

I have a 1992 camaro z28 that is a 5.7 from factory and has t tops. The t tops are called Cars & Concepts. These are not original from Chevy but was an option that dealers would install. I learned this when I was looking for the weather stripping. The T tops are actually about 2" shorter than the original Chevy Fisher t tops.

Big&BadGTA

iTrader: (1)

My 1989 GTA was all original when I bought it, and it had glass T Tops. IN fact, many did, as the plastic t-tops didn't come until later in the model year.

John is right, as usual

Big&BadGTA

iTrader: (1)

Welcome to the forum


But as a point of clarification, Cars & Concepts were NOT an option. If a dealer installed, it's not an "option", it's an accessory, or aftermarket. And the C&C t tops were fairly popular.

okfoz

Welcome!,
C&C tops were a dealer option as Big&BadGTA mentioned, they were dealer installed on many cars that were not available with T-tops through the years. I have read where some people say they are better than the factory tops, but I have no personal experience with them.

From 1990-1992 the only way to get a T-top F-body with the 350 was to either get the C&C tops or order a Formula 350 with T-tops in 91-92. The restriction was based on the Weight of the car.

yellowferrari

I was told if 5.7 and has g92 no t tops were offered only CNc t tops available

IMissMy86TA

The other ways were to get a GTA in 89 which was the only year for the GTA with a 5.7 and t-tops or you could get a Canadian GTA and get it with t-top and 350.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

The only problem with that is G92 doesn't always pertain. In cases where the only gear ratio offered was the "performance" ratio, G92 doesn't appear.

So yeah, they really arent related or mutually exclusive. It's not really a valid rule.

okfoz

87 - Camaro - L98, G92 (3.27 axle) , CC1 - Lots of them out there
87 - GTA - L98, (3.27 axle) CC1 - Many out there, ALL went to Canada
89 - Firebird/Camaro - L98 (3.27 axle), CC1 - Lots and LOTS of them out there
91 - 92 - FORMULA 350 - L98, (3.27 axle), CC1 - IIRC around 200 or so for each year.

They are available, do not believe the lies...

G92 on the Camaro was different than the Firebird. Around 1987 G92 was dropped by the Firebird, it was tied up with the Formula and the GTA. In 1988-1992 the 1LE mandated G92, so the Trans Am could have the G92, as did the 91/92 Formula with the G92. Interestingly there are a few Formulas & Trans Ams out there with the CC1, 1LE, G92 and CC1... However you could not get AC & T-tops with the 1LE.

Understand?

John

yellowferrari

So if came with g92 3.42 gears than cc1 was avaible I was told no cc1 thanks for all the info

Drew

iTrader: (58)

G92 only means "performance gear ratio". GU6 would be 3.42 ratio. The only time you'll see G92 on a spid is if there was an optional gear ratio.

For example, in 1987 EVERY L98 Camaro came with 3.27 gears standard. Since 3.27 is the only ratio offered, there isn't a need to differentiate with "G92". 3.27 would be considered a performance ratio in most cases, and yet there are many 87 L98s with ttops.

scottmoyer

That was in the later years of 88-92 if I recall. I think the rule was that if you had a 305 with G92 in 1988-1992, you could not get ttops. If you get the 350 with G92, you could not get ttops. So, this is only from 1988-1992.

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

Important point to note John is that NONE of the 1LE/CC1 cars were L98's - they were all LB9/MK6's.

yellowferrari

A lot diff answers I was told 88 iroc 5.7 with g92 came with 3.42 gears

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Pretty sure you're not going to find any L98 cars with 3.42 gears. 3.27 or 3.23 sure, 2.73 or 2.77 sure, 3.42 or 3.45s - no.

It really doesn't matter. People always think combinations exist that were never offered, and they're always going to look for things that don't exist. You decode each individual car to find out what it is. If you're looking for G92 on a L98 car you're wasting your time.

yellowferrari

My 88 is a 5.7 and g92 with aluminum driveshaft and cars n concepts t top and I took the auto trans out and made it a manual looks just like the factory did it and got the car fully restored. Love the car

Drew

iTrader: (58)

You were told wrong. 88 was during the 9-bolt years, so it wouldn't have 3.42s anyway it'd be 3.45s. But the G92 gear in 88 with the L98 is 3.27.

peterc005

My 1988 IROC has the G92 option, L98 350 V8 with a 9 bolt rear and has 3.45 gears from what I can tell.

Also has C & C T-Tops. Never seen a third gen with a 350 and factory T Tops, only C & C T Tops.

yellowferrari

i see u have a fox body I got a 88 Saleen fox body this is all great info I have not seen any g92 cars with cc1

lltrevino

iTrader: (1)

I have an all original 23,000 mile 1989 Iroc 5.7 factory T-top with g92. I know all original as I am the only owner, has to wait 2 weeks to receive from dealer, look at my garage for pics. Only thing I added was cragar louver, seat covers on 2nd day I owned it, and gently installed aftermarket radio. I have all original parts/

yellowferrari

Lots of mixed answers next time I do a diff service will verify gear ratios .

okfoz

That would be true too.

John

okfoz

HEre is a Formula 350 convertible too... YES it is a true 350 car, It is a true ASC conversion exactly like all the production Convertibles. It was a T-top car from Van Nuys, drop shipped to ASC to be made into a convertible. It has the 3.27 gear, and N10 dual cats. 1 of 43

JohnFB

lltrevino,


Does your car's RPO codes show both CC1 and G92? I'm curious because I had done a fair amount of research on this prior to buying my 1987, and it seemed that the consensus was G92 was only available with T-tops (likewise convertibles) up through 1988. Even the 1989 dealer order guide says "CC1 (N/A G92 Axle)". If you have a 1989 with both of those codes, it might be a rare car!


By the way, I looked at your photo album -- IROC looks beautiful!


-- John

zya5point0

iTrader: (4)

I didn't notice til about half way thru this thread started 3 years ago, lol! Just curious, are we 100% sure only 88 GTA's had the 350 and t-top? I bought one out of a neighbor's yard a few years back and i seen to recall it had t-top. That's why I bought it at the time...