bjpotter

I am curious as to what date production started for 1991 Firebirds and Trans Am's. I just discovered my Firebird was built on 4/2/90. If you have an earlier build date for a 1991 Firebird or Trans Am let me know and please show. If you know the answer please share. Thanks

3.8TransAM

If I remember tomorrow I will check my 91 Formula 350 and 91 GTA out.

Pictures like the one of yours(91/92 Formulas just look damned good) is the only reason I'm putting my Formula back together rather than junk it out due to ruse.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Okfoz has this info and has told me but I'm old and forgetful.
I think he said there were some made in 89 to make sure things worked then the rest of the 90s were built and then on to 91s again. (Do not take this as factual)

okfoz

IIRC The first 13 1991 Firebirds and first 13 1991 Camaros were made October 31, 1989. 14 + up started in January.

IIRC there was one of each car, I suspect they were either promo cars for the brochures or they were test cars for Fuel economy, crash tests, etc...

bjpotter

Thanks, that's sure early for a new car run.

okfoz

Yes it is ...

Actually I was off by one day.. it was 10-30-1989 I found my note. For the first 13 Camaros and First 13 Firebirds... Thought I had the VINs written down somewhere...

John

tavert91

iTrader: (1)

John - Maybe you could help me. I have several dates associated with my 1991 Trans Am converible. I bought it from Pontiac in Feb 1992 with 8,000 miles on it via a Pontiac auction sale. Compnine says it was produced on Feb 24, 1991, the ASC convertible label says Mar 31,1991, but a sticker under the hood says it was used in Sept of 1990 as a test and development vehicle. I have never found a build sheet in the car.

The sequence number in my VIN is 241480. Do you have any records that would provide a more consistent build date? I am thinking the car was completed, but not officially produced, in Aug or Sept 1990, used for EPA testing until Feb 1991 when it was officially finished and produced on the line at Van Nuys, and sent to ASC where the convertible package was installed, and the car finished for shipment, in March of 1991. Does this make sense to you?

okfoz

I have always been under the impression the convertible production started around July/August 1990.

About the best thing you could do would be to contact gmarchives and see if they have anything... I have nothing that would be of assistance.

John

tavert91

iTrader: (1)

John - Thanks for trying. At least your July/Aug 1990 date ties in with my Sept "Test and Develpoment" label dated 9/20/1990.

Does anyone have a VIN sequence number for a convertible that is lower than my 241480 and if so, do you know your build date?

okfoz

Do yourself a favor.
Compare the Sequence number on the engine Block, on the Side of the Transmission. And if you are really ambitious, there is supposedly a VIN stamped under the Right front fender.

Also do you have the little VIN stickers on all of the panels?

If they match the VIN of the car, then I have nothing.

If everything else matches (especially the engine and the trans) but are not the same as the VIN of the car, here is what I think may be the case.

1) GM made a test vehicle, did whatever tests had to be done
2) When the testing was done, they had to make it legitimate, it may have been a coupe VIN converted into a convertible.
3) Hence it passed whatever test they were doing, the assigned a new VIN to the car to change it from a Coupe to a Convertible
4) then sold it with altered VIN...

Sequence number 41480 would have been closer to the end of the production for 1991, as there was about 51,000 made from (the first 13 in 1989) and then starting in January 1990 through July (ish) 1991

okfoz

This is all aftermarket data for production, so your guess is as good as mine, but it is what I have:

Firebird production by the month:


1990
Jan & Feb 995
Mar 5,241
Apr 4,582
May 5,592
Jun 5,591
Jul 2,627
Aug 4,490
Sep 4,216
Oct 5,183
Nov 454
Dec 1,405
1990 Total 40,376

1991
Jan 1,003
Feb 374
Mar 1,033
Apr 1,797
May 2,255
Jun 2,032
Jul 1,378
Aug 2,825
Sep 2,570
Oct 2,804
Nov 2,251
Dec 0
1991 Total 20,322


1992
Jan 1,876
Feb 1,679
Mar 2,369
Apr 1,908
May 3,029
Jun 2,335
Jul 1,590
Aug 2,367
Sep 11
1992 Total 17,164

According to the same source there was 25180 total 1992 Firebirds,
So that puts the start of 1992 production in the middle of August

Therefore from Jan 1990 thru the end of production you have a total of 77,862 91's and 92's that were reportedly made.

Here is the most frustrating part of all of this
for 1992 total production from different sources:
1) PHS: 29,669,
2) Automotive News: 25,180
3) Wards Automotive Yearbook: 25,180
4) Compnine: 24,177)
5) George Scala, Pontiac Firebird 1967-2000: 27,567

(Right now George Scala, is the closest to the production figures by month)

For 1991
1) PHS: 51,860
2) Automotive News: 30,322
3) Wards 30,323
4) Compnine: 48,990
5) George Scala Pontiac Firebird 1967-2000: 50,454
6) Flammang, James M. & Kowalke, Ron. 1999. "Standard catalog of American cars 1976-1999". Krause Publications, pp 863-893: 20,332
7) Holder, Bill & Kunz, Phillip.1993. "Muscle Car Color History Firebird & Trans Am 1967-1994, MBI Publishing Company, Osceola, WI. pp. 93-106: 43,306

For 1990:
1) PHS: 20,553
2) Automotive News: 20,553
3) Wards 20,553
4) Compnine: 20,553
5) George Scala:20,532
6) Flamming: 46,760 (obviously includes the early 1991 models)

Without gathering all of the actual VIN numbers for every year, we will probably never know the exact totals for 91 & 92, the way the year went down, with 1991 being a Long year it just boogered up the whole works.

John

tavert91

iTrader: (1)

You present an interesting theory. Since I already feel guilty of hijacking this thread, I will post a new one and see where it leads. Hopefully, you will participate in the discussion. I will use the title "Convertible Production Sequence Numbers".

I have never looked for the engine or trans stampings. Having bought the car from pontiac as the first retail owner, I did not think it necessary. Next time I get it on a lift, I will check these out.

I have never found any other stamping or paper tag in other locations with one exception that I found strange. I pulled the dash to repair a broken odometer and found a paper test sticker for the guages. It had a different VIN than the car. This tag identified the panel as part of VIN sequence 117031. I kept it just for curiosity. May be this holds the key. It is dated Aug 1990.

Edit Remark: I just received your summary of production from 1990-1992. You are right, we will probably never know the correct numbers. It becomes especially hard when you factor in that my interest is primarily in the convertibles produced via ASC and carry Pontiac VIN's with the 3 in the body style digit.

If your theory is true, then maybe this is the sequence number that I will find on the eng & trans. I'll report back in the other thread I'll start when I find out what is stamped on the block & trans.

bjpotter

Thanks for the month by month breakdown. It looks like mine was one of the first 6000 or so cars made.
Also, does anyone know which models got the trim around the Wheel wells and across the bottom, and which (like my formula) do not? Was it only the formula's, or could you order any model without it. Such as Trans Am, GTA, Firehawk, Convertable ETC...

bjpotter

I don't mind your question's. I started it to collect First's of any of the models. Earliest Trans Am's, GTA's, Convertable, Colors Etc. And by all means post a picture.

blacksunshine'91

iTrader: (10)

If its worth anything, my VIN sequence is 201230. According to the build sheet I got from GM archives, it was built on 2 March, 1990 and sold on 18 April 1990 at Al Piano Pontiac in Simi Valley. Somebody, probably the original owner, had C&C tops installed.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Yes, there is a VIN derivitive (for my 87 it was 2HL223742) stamped into the top of the frame rail where the fender bolts come in from the top. It's about 6-8 inches forwards of the hood hinge mounts. I've seen this on every 3rd gen I could see the frame rail on.

bjpotter

Nice Car. Looks like you made some nice improvements. My sequence is 206363. Post a picture of your GTA. Today I saw another 91 - 92 at a repair garage. It's the 1st one I've seen In KC since I bought mine a year ago. It looked used, but the body was in good shape. There was no plate on the car. I may stop back latter this week and see if they plan on flipping it.

blacksunshine'91

iTrader: (10)

Here are a few photos:

http://www.thefoat.com/BlackSunshine.../photo_id-4132

If you look through them, you can tell that some of them were taken after I sprayed my turn signals with Nightshade.

bjpotter

Sweet. Nice ride. I hope you get to drive it often. I really like the front end of these cars. I know some people hate it and replace it with an older style. I think it has a classic sports car look, similar to the corvette style.

SbFormula

Mine was may 1990!!! We're cousins ;-)

bjpotter

Looks very familiar!
Nice to see another Blue Formula. There are not many of us left. I figure less than 90 were ever built this color.





Too bad you are in Canada. It would be neat to see two of them together. T Top and Coupe.

SbFormula

Awesome! We're 3500km apart

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Wow, only 90? I have a Blue 1991 Formula TPI, 5-speed, w/ t-tops. Saved it from being parted out.

JT

iTrader: (1)

23U? If so, there shows to be around 529 1990 Formulas built in that color.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

1990 or 1991?

okfoz

I do not have breakout for individual models, but compnine shows
Coupes
2023 98U (Bright Blue)
902 23U Maui Blue

Convertibles
57 - 98U (Bright Blue)
0 - 23U (Maui Blue)

So there was probably a few more than what is listed here.

Obviously Firebird, Trans Am, Formula, GTA only. I know that the GTA was NA in the Maui, as was the Trans Am, not sure about the 98U, can't look now.

JT

iTrader: (1)

That was for 1990.

For 1991 is about 272 Formulas in that color. Again, assuming that's 23U. And 1991 the records are slightly incomplete so it may be a little more.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Unless my monitor calibration is really off, I believe both those cars are 98Us.

JT

iTrader: (1)

Compnine doesn't show any W66 in 98U for 1990 nor does my 1990 Pontiac order sheet shown 98U as an option.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

I am confused, aren't we talking about 1991 production numbers?

JT

iTrader: (1)

I have no idea who started talking about 1990 Model Year

For 1991, Compnine shows 616 1991 Formulas with the 98U Bright Blue.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Lol, thanks, that number seems realistic to me.

bjpotter

I read the numbers wrong earlier. I was looking at the Maui Blue numbers. You are correct mine is 98U so the 616 number would be right. You still don't see many 91's around this color for sale.

SbFormula

Yep! 98U for mine too

asgard815

love that color blue. not so much the nose. nice car though!

okfoz

I had a little time to look....

23U (Maui Blue or Silver Blue Metallic) was a Firebird & Formula only color.
98U (Bright Blue Metallic) was NA on the GTA, but available on the Trans Am, Formula and Firebird.

John

LiquidBlue

Great data here guys! 23U 1990 Formula checking in, VIN sequence number 205403, build date 9/89. Hope that helps you narrow some things down on the 91 issues!

okfoz

It should be noted that in regards to the 98U Blue Firebirds with the W68 package that they were NA until around July of 1990, so it was a mid model year change. Early on the 98U was available only on the Trans Am, Formula and the Firebird (W/O W68).

LiquidBlue

JT. Would you mind looking up 23u color for 88/89 Formulas? Been trying to compile that data in another thread.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/memb...ml#post6022682

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

I am pretty sure JT is using Compnine, which only has data for Canadian Thirdgens earlier than 90.

okfoz

I sure wish they would have included 1989

LiquidBlue

Does this mean compnine has no data on 3rd gens from 1989 and back? I didn't realize this... or did I miss some detail??

B4C5.7

iTrader: (2)

Yeah Jim, unfortunately the compnine data does not exist for 1989 down unless the car was a Canadian export, Z49 RPO. Those cars are in the data base, I assume because of GM of Canada.