bjpotter

While looking at CL ad's in Florida, I found a 1991 1LE for $2500 in Cape Florida. Motor is original but in parts. Another project given up on.
I know there are several people on this website who are into these cars. Could be a cheap start for a rebuild or a good parts car for someone fixing their own.

CharcoalBird

iTrader: (4)

I have contacted the seller. He sent me these pictures.






Seller says "Driver side floor needs a piece. Only real rust issue. All other is minor.


I would love to go look at it but I won't be able to till this weekend. Will probably be sold by then. Rust always worries me but in his Craigslist ad he said the PASSENGER quarter would need patch work where they all rust. "Solid other wise."

CharcoalBird

iTrader: (4)

More pictures.

CharcoalBird

iTrader: (4)

And more.

CharcoalBird

iTrader: (4)

okfoz

Get the VIN or a copy of the SPID, I can run the RPO codes for you.

Here is the deal, I think I would have a hard time parting with $2500 for it as it is... It is technically (by definition) a basket case. You buy the car and bring home the parts in a basket.

I have rebuilt a few of these cars and if you mark them to how they should go back together it really is not a big deal, but to have someone elses project and you do not know if you get all of the parts.... you have no idea what you are getting yourself into... It could be an easy job (looking at the rust hole I doubt it would be easy)...

The truth is, with the miles it might be a $6000 car IF it was in good condition, with a solid floor...

midge54

that driver side floor scares me after the t top i had that the floors, firewalls, rockers and even the subframe was rotted out, and my floors didnt look that bad from underneath

okfoz

Until it is one piece IMHO it is a parts car.

Edit: The only thing that has value is the SPID, and the front brakes... And the front brakes need to be completely replaced by the looks of them...

Also where are the wheels and tires?

bjpotter

There is usually a reason people don't show pictures of cars in ad's. I see why he didn't.

okfoz

If he was local, I would offer $500 if I was feeling REALLY generous that day... I really do not care about his financial woes, what car is there is crap, and everything, I mean everything would have to be blasted, painted, powdercoated, welded, or something. Having done a RUST FREE car, it cost me $7000 and I painted it, rebuilt the motor, rebuilt the trans, recovered the interior myself...

He will say "But it is really fast" My response "ok, you say it is fast let us race my Rendezvous for pink slips right now.

If he says "But it is a 1LE" You say, for $800 you can get the 1LE Front brakes, and they are NEW, not rusted out. Also you can get the AC-delete pieces if you look for them...

My personal opinion is it is a step above, maybe sideways of scrap metal, it really is not good for many parts, put it back together, and then we can talk.

My experience with people like this is they have huge ambition, but no determination. They are like children that take a huge plate of food, but can not eat it all... Reminds me of the proverb, how to eat an elephant.. One bight at a time, unfortunately people start eating the elephant, only to get part way into it and realize that it has started to rot, then it does not taste so good... Eventually it is too much work to finish, and it will languish, they try to sell what is left over, ultimately to be disappointed that they made an "investment" only to have squandered away their money.

John

okfoz

If it was a TTA or Firehawk that had some rare engine, then sure... but the 1LE was a brake package...

midge54

i agree i would be hard pressed to really offer any money for it after my last run in with rust, had to part and scrap an 87 trans am t top with only 61000 original miles because there was too much rot to be worth putting all the money required to fix the body

okfoz

There comes a point that a sticker is just a sticker, and not worth trying to salvage.... IT is just a car...

CharcoalBird

iTrader: (4)

I had considered going and looking at it. The more pictures he sent, the less inclined I was towards purchasing it.


Too bad.

okfoz

If it was together, it would maybe make a driver out of it... not really worth an attempt to try and save... It is unfortunate, but I did not see one part that did not have rust and/or need paint...

Time2Fly

Nobody works harder to increase the "undesirable" status of our cars like a lot of the "enthusiasts" that are members of this site. Amazing.

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

John,

If you can find me a 1 of 46 driver condition 1LE 91 Formula for 6,000 I will buy it tonight. In fact, I'll buy every one you can find me at that price!

Please let me know if you're holding back on one.

Chris

PS - if anyone wants to forward me the seller's contact info I may take a run at it. thebosspontiac@hotmail.com

okfoz

Chris,
High Miles 1LE? I would bet that this particular Formula with Less than 999 miles could probably sell for around $25,000-30,000. I believe Bruce bought his JY 1LE Formula #1, Body #1, for $35,000...

Every now and then 1LE's do come up for sale for around $10-15K usually higher miles

With that said, I do not see this car as having a lot of value IN THE CONDITION IT IS IN. It has a lot of miles, and being a 1LE does help the value, no doubt about it. BUT you will have at least $10-$15K into it by the time you are done, AND at minimum 1 year gone by, when you go to sell it, people will tell you it is not "original" bla bla bla.

For the money spent on rebuilding and refurbishing it, you would honestly be further ahead (RIGHT NOW) waiting for one to come up that is done.

I am not one to usually go around and low ball cars, but the reality is what the reality is. I would not spend my effort to restore this particular car, the amount of work is way beyond what I would be willing to put into it.

I would rather have the $10,000 Yellow Trans Am 350, and save my time working this particular car. http://www.cargurus.com/Cars/invento...ting=112466741 There was less than 44 of those made...

If I had unlimited space and time, I might pick this car up and put it into storage before I started messing with it. Wait until the market was closer to $30 or $50K

CharcoalBird

iTrader: (4)

This would bring up the question of how long from now? 10 years? If so, it would seem that if you weren't in a rush to fix and repair it to as original as possible, then it may be worth it.
If you are looking for a long term investment...here it is. $1800, fix those major rust issues, some of which looks like surface rust, you could have a future profit.


These cars can be looked at as past cars have. They weren't worthy of restoring and selling until they hit a certain year(or generation(people generation, not car generation)). I'm 29 years old, and 30 years from now, our cars will be out of reach from many buyers.

bjpotter

For a car to be saved it must be loved. I have seen repeated arguments over the "value" of 1LE's in this website. There is no need to go over them again. The fact that so many argue for its special nature tells me they are loved. If this car is saved it will be because someone did not want to see it crushed. I can't see anybody who doesn't think these cars are special buying it for anything other than parts. This car will end up a build thread on this website or will probably end up at the junkyard. If it stays outside too much longer there will be nothing left to save and we will be down to 45 or less 91's left.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Amen, you could preach that... - for people, too.

For buying & selling (not people), it's a different ballgame.

Value In -- Value Out
Rust & paint hurts (even dents). Paint alone might be OK. Just hard to get it back out.

bjpotter

And that's the thing. If this car is rebuilt it will be a wash at best. Wishing for a profit that may or may not happen in your lifetime doesn't make sense. The only reason to save it, is if it's worth saving by the person who buys it. The merits for a 1LE over any other model doesn't matter. If it means something to someone to save it, it will be saved. If it doesn't, its just one more scrap heap waiting to be melted down into your next refrigerator or washer.
I have seen many threads go over and over again debating its worth. The reason I mentioned it was to give those people a chance to save it. There were no pictures in the ad, so I had no idea what shape it was in when I started this post. Seeing its shape, if it was nothing more than a base model, it would crazy to fix. But to those this car has meaning, saving one of 46 might be worth the effort. But doing so for a profit would not be a reason for why to do it.

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

Here are my thoughts - take them for what they are worth...

I spoke with Jarrod this morning and went over the car with him, he was very honest with me of it's condition going over every body panel and each of the major components in order & in detail. As others have said, it needs just about every part refinished or replaced.

It is a 1LE, regardless of how you feel about them they are special with the Pontiac's being more special than the Chevrolets (in my opionion) because of their far lower production. Rare (again my opinion) is any vehicle with production numbers of less than 100 - limited to body style & drive line combination - and in some special cases, option group.....for example 8 - 69 Trans Am Convertibles or 4 - 88 IROC 1LE's. This is 1 of 46, has all of it's original components, and is BLACK.

As for what will it cost to restore? The same amount as any other car that gets restored or upgraded here on this board. Guys here are taking base models, adding other motors, different interiors, etc.. The difference here & history will prove me right, at the end of the day, this car will have a better opportunity to reclaim that investment - where the others will not.

I'm old enough to remember buying 69-73 Trans Am's for 1-2k, 69-71 Judges - even convertibles for not much more & in far worse shape. Those days are long gone - but the run up is coming for third gen's and now's the time to be buying these - basket cases or not. In this case I think the car could easily be parted for what he's asking, but that would be a real shame. I'm on the fence about going to get this one - I have a few things I have to take care of early next week but could take the rest of the week to go get it - shipping it, due to it's present state of assembly would be out of the question. By the time I got back here I would have my time (worthless ) and about $2,600 into it total - still a good investment IMO - it's what comes after that that I'm not sure I'm willing & able to do - if I'm going to be completely honest with myself.

I have a short list of cars I really want to own at some point and a 3rd gen 1LE is on it. I'd prefer a Formula but will consider all. This one fits the bill & I've restored worse.

midge54

i think its worth saving to the right person, but only if this person has the time and money to repair all of the rot out of the body. after the body is completely fixed then the rest will be a whole lot easier. Im all for saving as many third gens as possible, specially the ones with low production numbers

okfoz

I wish you all the luck... in all honesty, you have more patience than I do... I would love to own a 1LE Formula... BUT I would not trade a 1LE Formula for my Formula 350 Convertible in the same condition

BTW, did you ever see that 1990 5 speed Formula I posed about a month ago?

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

I did. Not a bad car but it has it's issues. I've seen it twice, driven it & would buy it if we could agree on the price. He's had it a long time and has an emotional attachment to it - which I think is stopping him from seeing what the real costs involved would be.

I'd love to have your vert too - but I'd take a no option 1LE over a loaded up vert any day of the week.

3.8TransAM

Time vs. money vs. value.

How much time do you have? If not how much can you afford to spend?

Also figure on what it is really worth and what would be reasonable to waste on it.

Glad my friends and I have gotten to the point where we will do almost anything ourselves. Sentiment sucks as well, you make stupid decisions, like rebuilding my Formula(love that pile of crap though)

Finished rebuilding the firewall on the Formula yesterday and drivers floor to go

It is a car at the end of the day. Do u want to fix it? Do you care enough to fix it?

90 GTA Black

I'd like to fix it. Just lacking the garage space and time to do it.

eseibel67

I restored a rusty 72 Cutlass convertible (with the help of a body man of course) when I was in my early 20's. I came out even on it factoring that all my work and running around was free. Never again. Ever since I have been buying rust free cars. Clean cars are so easy to acquire and work on. I don't know why anyone would bother going through the headache of a restoration on anything, much less a 1980's car, where a really good one can be had for such a reasonable price.






I would love to have a 1LE Formula BTW, base TPI w/5 speed. Only frilly option: power windows because it doesn't have A/C and I like to drive my toys!

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

I still need to finish my 71 GTO convertible & I'd be embarrassed to tell you how long I've been working on that!

I'm out on this one - as much as I would love to own it & have it driving again I have to be honest with myself and admit it would likely never happen. Somebody close who's in the business & loves the car needs to pick this one up & get it back on the road. I'll find another 1LE, but likely not a Formula.

eseibel67

455 4 speed convertible GTO - now that's worth restoring.

okfoz

Did you get more than just the body with that car? Daang, it looks like someone sanded all of the paint and primer off and then put it outside...

John

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

1 of 21 455HO/4spds built & that includes the 3 Judge convertibles. Only a handful of the 4spds are known to have survived and other than the Judges this is still the only one known to have been ordered with Ram Air, and the only one delivered to Pontiac Headquarters through engineering.

Because of it's colors, when it was produced & where it was delivered I strongly believe it was the pace car for the Southern 500 that year, unfortunately I have no way to prove it.

That's exactly what happened to it John, should be a few pounds lighter now too.

Motor & trans are in my garage & waiting to drop into the frame. I have most of the other parts for it as well, almost all of them NOS including the hood. Here's a shot of the engine when I moved it & another.

A perfect case of your load may be worth more than the truck - the one in back is the 71 455HO 4spd WC engine for the convertible, the one in front is a 68 RA II/Auto XW motor for my GTO - 1 of 47 made & when that picture was taken I had two of them (two of the motors, only 1 of the cars).

Somebody still needs to save the Formula!