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History / OriginalityGot a question about 1982-1992 Camaro or Firebird history? Have a question about original parts, options, RPO codes, when something was available, or how to document your car? Those questions, answers, and much more!
Actually, in the 60's they did NOT "overrate" the horsepower. It was just the industry standard to measure power with out exhaust manifolds, alternators, or other bolt on's.
In 1972 the industry went to a net power reading IE, with exhaust manifolds, alternators, water pumps etc. The same year compression dropped to allow upcoming unleaded fuel. So published HP figures dropped a lot!
SOME engines were underrated in the late 60's early 70's IE 426 Hemi, Ford 429, etc. This was done to keep vehicle insurance prices from going through the roof. The insurance companies were having fits over "Muscle Car" crash losses. They were also complaining about the high cost of necessary body work, in "parking lot" 5-10 MPH crashes. This is what brought on the "Bumper Standards". They were not "Safety Bumpers" as is widely mis- believed.
I didn't know about the 5mph bumper. I actually thought it was for safety, knowing it was just for insurance companies to get more money is disappointing to say the least :/
These cars are only going to appreciate in value because they are the only platform that's out there that can be had by the average Joe.Put a 383 in one and it will be faster than any 60's, 70's muscle car that came from the factory.
There is much hope though, when I see how many of us are creating replacement stuff for our cars, especially due to the advent of affordable 3D printing.
I just finished reading the article "The future of exploration starts with 3D printing" in NASA Tech Briefs. They are printing, with copper powder and a laser, a rocket combustion chamber that can withstand up to 5,000 degrees F, and is made up of 8,255 layer of copper powder.
They also made a turbopump described as "a critical rocket engine component with a turbine that spins and generates more than 2,000 H.P....the turbopump reached full power, delivering 1,200 gallons of cryogenic liquid hydrogen per minute, or enough to power an upper stage rocket engine capable of generating 35,000 pounds of thrust."
I just finished reading the article "The future of exploration starts with 3D printing" in NASA Tech Briefs. They are printing, with copper powder and a laser, a rocket combustion chamber that can withstand up to 5,000 degrees F, and is made up of 8,255 layer of copper powder.
They also made a turbopump described as "a critical rocket engine component with a turbine that spins and generates more than 2,000 H.P....the turbopump reached full power, delivering 1,200 gallons of cryogenic liquid hydrogen per minute, or enough to power an upper stage rocket engine capable of generating 35,000 pounds of thrust."
So if they can do that....
Makes you wonder how far off we are from sending and receiving human DNA across the globe and printing out parts or complete humans.
There was a 1985 Camaro article and they claimed that the 1985 IROC with the LB9 was the Fastest Camaro they ever tested. IIRC they put the stock times of the 1st and 2nd gens as a comparison. Of course it probably would not beat a COPO or a YENKO, but the YENKO for 67 & 68 were not stock, and to get a COPO there was quite the rigamarole to get one otherwise more people would have gotten one. Even today you can get a COPO Camaro, but it does not come with a street legal VIN.
A lot of us had these cars in High School and just like the other generations had Gen 1 and 2 cars.. these are the cars we loved growing up and have the disposable income to spend on them.
I just bought a nice B4C and will snap up any low mileage clean 3rd Gens I can find.
Just remember what early Gen 2 cars cost 15 years ago. I bought a clean 71 RS/28 M22 car with the original motor in 2000 for $7,800
Note: Once you have owned a few street cars that are really!!! fast and you can't use their full capability on the street...you soon realize how fast a car is has very little to do with how much you enjoy it...
All I know is my 90 IROC is my favorite out of every car I've owned!!! I loved my 72, but this one is so much nicer!!!! That old 72 would be worth way more than my 90 , but not to me. Not just the comfort and handling. But the fact that I actually grew up with third gens. Ya... Second gens too. But I was a teen and very immature young adult when our cars were New. But nobody in my little town had one which made them even more Cool. I still live in a fairly rural part if Michigan and there is still only a few on the road around here. I'm proud to say that mine is the nicest one around here by far. I did stop to look at one for sale the other day just a few miles from me. It looked awesome from the road. It ended up being a 88 vert with a ton of cosmetic work. Still a good lookin car. But he wanted $8,000 for it. If he gets that then it will be a real sign that our value and respect level is definitely on the rise. He won't though. He watched me pull in with mine and look over his car for 20 minutes without even walking over to talk about our cars. Very disappointing. That's when I really wanted to tell him that mine had half that into it and is obviously nicer than his. Then I was just sad because apparently that car had only $$ value to him. But if he thinks they're worth it, maybe others will be convinced.
Sorry, but I'm taking this chance to cry.
I'm tired of people liking my car and asking " what year is it?". Only to look disappointed when I say 90. You guys with 80's never have to deal with that. But I LOVE the stare downs I get with the Vette guys wherever I go!!! I guess that makes up for it. But then you the people that ask about your car and even when you answer that it's original paint, which is rare around here, they say, " I'm not a real fan of white". I just laugh at them. They look at me like I'm the ###hole. Lol
Anyway. I love my IROC!!! It's a time machine for me. It's become an important part of my life. I sit in it on some weekends and get drunk blasting VanHallen and Mettalica. Smiling the whole time. How could that not be the best car ever??!!
Thanks to you all for unknowingly helping me make my IROC this awesome!!!! And thanks for helping me feel like a kid again!!!!
Anyway. I love my IROC!!! It's a time machine for me. It's become an important part of my life. I sit in it on some weekends and get drunk blasting VanHallen and Mettalica. Smiling the whole time. How could that not be the best car ever??!!
Thanks to you all for unknowingly helping me make my IROC this awesome!!!! And thanks for helping me feel like a kid again!!!!
They are time machines!!!
My son put a few playlists of his on my phone a few weeks ago and I've been using the AUX cord on the stereo in my 91 Z28 to play them. I was just about to turn into the driveway when Clapton's It's in the Way That You Use It came on. Now, I played the **** out of that disc when it was new in my 87 IROC and I was instantly transported back in time.
It was momentary & when I turned the corner at the top if my driveway I was back - realizing I had the best of both worlds.
Absolutely!! I'm glad I'm 45 actually. I appreciate things so much more!! It makes everything better. Things could always be worse.
I beat the crap out of a lot of my cars when I didn't appreciate things. Now I actually treat everything and most everyone with respect. I only paid $1,500 for this beauty. I've put a ton of work into it and I'm just getting started. But I love bringing her back to life. I wouldn't trade her for anything now!!
I have a sub drive in my stereo. The stick in it is mostly 80's rock. I love Clapton and that's one of my favorites. I'm adding it to my playlist now. Thanks for reminding me!!! Here's my cheap thrill.
The outside was painted original color once. Lost its pin stripes.
I don't know if this depends on what part of the country you're in, but around here, it seems like all of the guys who were in high school when the thirdgen was new are all driving around in $40,000 5th gens.
The popularity of the thirdgen may be growing, but all I see on the road are more and more 5th gens. Again, this may depend on your part of the country...
Motown - I get out to Detroit at least once a year and nowhere else have I seen so many American cars on the road as in your area. Most of the stuff around here is European or Japanese - BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Lexus, Honda etc.. I have never seen so many Challengers, Camaros and Corvettes as I have in my trips to Michigan!
I've seen guys in 5th gens that don't even know I'm driving a camaro lol. And they're my age!!! I'd like one of each generation. At least It would mean something to me. But if I can only have one it would be my 3rd gen.
There's a ton of 5th gens around here. I wan next to one a few weeks ago and revved at him with a smile and he looked at me like " how dare you!". I was sad for a second. Then I stomped on it which probably made look even worse lol. But oh we'll. It felt good at the time!!!#
Motown - I get out to Detroit ...... and nowhere else have I seen so many American cars on the road as in your area. Most of the stuff around here is European or Japanese - BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Lexus, Honda etc.. I have never seen so many Challengers, Camaros and Corvettes as I have in my trips to Michigan!
I agree!
Here in cali most folks won't cross the street, to shop American cars.
If the country bought cars, the way Detroit folks do...............we'd never have a recession. America would be the KING of manufacturing, it once was.
I had a Datsun 510 wagon about 30 years ago. I got up to about 70 in second gear when it blew. But it still made it to the junk yard.
Everyone in MI has some kind of connection with the big 3. So we buy American to support each other. So it's definitely a regional thing. Even retired guys had their retirement cut when it got bad. They'll never get that back. Sad.
That Datsun was my only foreign named vehicle. I'm not sure where the parts for my 90 IROC were made, but it was assembled in CA. I think right before that plant shut down.
Of course the other things you guys deal with in the State Up North is even more rust than us, though the real rust starts at US 30 in Ohio rather than at the state line. So the 5th gens, Challengers and S197s/S550s are going to rule since they haven't gotten a chance to rust yet. But when I'm up there from driving around it's clear that you guys fully support the Big 3 unlike Middle Ohio which is a Honda stronghold north of I-70, east of I-75, west of I-71 and south of US 30 because of all those Honda plants.
I was leaving my favorite burrito stand last night and 2 teenagers driving a new camaro were checking out my car. They asked a few questions, they asked if it had a V8 and I said that is what the 8 stands for in Z28! Then they just wanted to race me down the street leaving! LOL. i am too old for a street race ticket. I just thought it was cool that a couple of young Camaro loving teens took an intrest in a 3rd gen. Below is a pic of a freinds daughters car. she loves this thing, she drives with a 5 gallon bucket full of car care products and will wipe her baby down if it rains on her way to work! Down here in So. Flo. there are way too many 5th gens and dodges on the road. Lots of imports also but id say its at least 50/50.
BTW Chevyitis, tell that guy to ship that 88 vert down here, $8000 is no stretch down here if the condition is good.
I'll tell you what vinny R. I'll wait till fall when it starts getting cold again and I'll drive it down myself! Lol. I'm getting tired of snow!!! I guess I'd like to see the value of our cars go up. That would increase the respect value too. That's my favorite part I think. Even if they know nothing about it. And when they do, it's even better.
When I was a kid, my Dad took us to car shows. It's been quite a while. This car has got me wanting to go to every one I can now. Very Cool!!!
Thirdgen perceptions are rising. My car received a bunch of compliments at a recent cars and coffee, where it was parked in a row with a 911, M3, Aventador, Bentley, Aston Martin Vantage, MB 300SEL gullwing, and MB SLS AMG gullwing. Not exactly typical thirdgen company... made for cool pictures.
I was leaving my favorite burrito stand last night and 2 teenagers driving a new camaro were checking out my car. They asked a few questions, they asked if it had a V8 and I said that is what the 8 stands for in Z28! Then they just wanted to race me down the street leaving! LOL. i am too old for a street race ticket. I just thought it was cool that a couple of young Camaro loving teens took an intrest in a 3rd gen. Below is a pic of a freinds daughters car. she loves this thing, she drives with a 5 gallon bucket full of car care products and will wipe her baby down if it rains on her way to work! Down here in So. Flo. there are way too many 5th gens and dodges on the road. Lots of imports also but id say its at least 50/50.
BTW Chevyitis, tell that guy to ship that 88 vert down here, $8000 is no stretch down here if the condition is good.
Wow, that new Camaro looks hideous next to the third. All bulbous and oversized.
Are we a dying breed? A young couple I met this weekend can help answer that. I came outside for a break at the hotel I work at, to find them walking around my car. They were looking it over real good when I approached. First question; Do you know who owns this car? "Second question"; Is it for sale? Obviously I answered Me and No.
They told me how much they liked the car. When I said "Not bad for a 26 year old car." Their jaws dropped. That car is 26 years old! That car is older than us!
The fact that they appreciated a car they had no past with or memories of, show how well the design has aged. Not the first time my car has had attention given to it, but shows how the next generation appreciates them.
I went to watch fireworks last night and as I was leaving I was sitting in a long line of cars waiting for our turn to go. The sidewalk was non stop people and it was "nice car", " awesome car" over and over again by people of all ages. If they weren't commenting about it they were staring at it. So I'd say these cars have a very strong appeal.
The thing is: when people are hunting for a toy.....do they put Camaro, Z28 or SS or maybe Trans Am into the "search" criteria? I'll be 100% honest, I had about $5k -$7k 7 years ago to go buy a car. IROC-Z was not on my radar. I was hunting a 2nd gen. No decent 2nd gens out there in the price range I was looking for. Somehow an 89 IROC popped up in my search & just looked almost perfect in the ad. Long story short, I bought it, I now own 3 more 3rd gens. I personally feel it's time WE AS OWNERS & somewhat experts of these cars need to price accordingly. The supply of the top of the food chain cars in high quality condition are getting scarce. I'll see an average RS with an asking price of $9,000 because it's a 5 spd & then a modified "IROC" asking $9,000(no RPO codes to verify much), then a stock IROC documented with 52,000 for $14,500 & HEAPS of crap for $200 - $2500 up to $6,000 because it has some "built" suspension & drivetrain but interior & paint is shot.
If I were just coming into the hobby blind today - I don't know if I still would. There are still too many junker 3rd gens being limped along daily that people can get cheaply & give people hope they could one day be nice.
I could also see 3rd gens being skipped over straight to the 98 SS & Z28 cars....
I think the Pontiac 3rd gens already have their following but IROC will always be synonymous with the 3rd gen. Most people I speak with know IROC but have zero to little idea what a GTA is.
It's all a crap shoot but I like cars better than the stock msrket. It just takes time & DRIVE THESE CARS TO SHOWS! Take them out on nice days & show off the nice ones. If someone wants to buy it while out.....maybe sell it & go hunt another nice one. It's up to US TO KEEP THEM ALIVE & include others in the 3rd gens. From now on, if possible we'll be taking at least these 2 to shows & cruises but possibly up to 4 of them.
I remember back when I was in high school going to the junk yard to find parts for my 77 Monte Carlo, and TONS of 3rd gens, i mean, i bet 30-40 of them any given time. Then, it seemed like one day, there were no more 3rd gens, it was shortly after the "Cash for clunkers"! I really think that killed the "cheap old car" market. In high school also, a friend and I went in half's on an 84 sports coupe for 100$! now people want 500 for a rusted out roller! sorry if im venting, but the passing times, you dont realize it till you look back on it. yes, we are a dying breed.......
I have been fortunate enough to own performance cars for as long as I've been driving. I remember searching for a car, looking for Corvettes and found a new black/black GTA. It gave the image, like a rocket. Gorgeous!!
I ended up buying the Corvette, then two years later, bought a GTA. While I still have the Corvette, I did end up selling the GTA after owning it for 14 years.
In 1991, I remember running my 89 GTA 5.7L car at 14.3 stock. I was able to, with a few mods (which were limited in the era) to run 14.0 @96 or 97 mph, eventually. With different cylinder heads a camshaft and intake manifold change, the car ran 13.1 @109. Later on, looking for 12s, I changed the engine to a 383 long block and the car ran 12.2@115. This was on a 245/45/16 BFG tire. Car was fast for the day. This was around 1995.
It was a fun car, and I'd buy one again in a heartbeat, but most are roaches, or poorly modded excuses. That's what keeps me away for now, but I'll find the right one again...
As far as the F-Body cars, in between, we owned a 2011 Callaway Camaro, which was a phenomenal performing car. We've since sold that however, for something a bit more practical every day.
I love 1980s cars, and as more and more 40-50 year old people have disposable income, they will buy the cars which turned them on when young.
Here's some pics of my GTA.
Last edited by Big&BadGTA; 12-28-2016 at 03:26 PM.
I see more 67-69 Camaros out than I do 82-92 Camaros. You can buy absolutely any part for a 1st or 2nd gen Camaro for all that matters. You cant even get a console for your 3rd gen unless you really luck up and find a good used one. As far as I know there is no replacement console. If the parts were there for our cars I think it would definitely help. My generation is getting older and looking to buy these cars we grew up with I don't really think we are a dying breed.
The current state of parts availability is a vicious circle of poor quality, high prices, and lack of demand. The market is cornered by Hawks, and OER. Buyer's don't demand higher quality. Some of us won't waste money on garbage repros. Not enough people are buying the repros to bring the price down far enough to make the prices fair. Just enough people settle for the poor quality and pay the high prices that vendors aren't encouraged to offer anything better or price the poor repros appropriately.
I've noticed increased interest in third gens growing each year at Mecum and Barrett Jackson. Prices rising slowly but more important, more nice and/or low mileage cars keep showing up for sale.
At the up coming Mecum Kissimmee no less than 12 Camaro's and 3 Firebirds. They include 6 Z28's, 3 IROC's, 1 TTA. 5 are convertibles, 2 with Very low miles. They would not be there if they are not getting interest.
Eventually the people who demand doo-wop music at the cruise nights and put fake food trays on their window sills will be replaced by people who demand Def Leppard or Nirvana at the cruise night and won't know what a drive-in restaurant is. They'll also like thirdgens. I'm in the latter group. Then there'll be a new group of young people complaining about how the cruise-nights don't respect plug-in hybrids and only care about those 80s/90s cars.
Eventually the people who demand doo-wop music at the cruise nights and put fake food trays on their window sills will be replaced by people who demand Def Leppard or Nirvana at the cruise night and won't know what a drive-in restaurant is. They'll also like thirdgens. I'm in the latter group. Then there'll be a new group of young people complaining about how the cruise-nights don't respect plug-in hybrids and only care about those 80s/90s cars.
I often considered putting together a real show of 78 & up cars. I've been to so many "shows" that ONLY allow pre '72 or even pre 1980 cars that it's kind of ridiculous. A guy a few years ago tried to put together an '80's show but only had enough space for about 20 cars. It was not a success.
Even though there is some aftermarket for these cars there is still so much more for the 60's cars that owning a third gen is honestly, more work. That being said the group of people that own or want to own these cars are now in their 40+ range I would think. We do have the stereotype of mull8t's but so what? I was lucky enough to graduate from high school in 83' so these are prime cars in my history. I still love the 60's cars but to me these are the most desirable because they are not overpriced yet. They drive great even in stock form and the mechanical/suspension part of aftermarket has a lot to offer especially in the LS swap direction. Once manufactures come to realize there is a good market to make money on more parts will come. In turn it will create even more people interested in owning one.
I live in mid-Michigan. The salt has killed off most of these cars in my area. Good luck finding any in a junk yard because they are few and far between. With that, mine being bought from a member here from West Virginia, is extremely solid for an IROC in Michigan. I never see any other around her and the few I have seen are limping along on their last leg. I feel great knowing I can go for a ride and get the look or head twist. Many people young and old like this car so that says these cars have a solid future in the automotive enthusiast world. The guys that can only appreciate 60's cars are missing out on a fun to drive car. Maybe that is better for us to help keep the cost reasonable.
You guys should check out Seattle area. I stayed there for several months this year and I have NEVER seen so many D.D third gens !!!! It was like PARADISE HEAVEN for me lol
I remember one day I drove about a 50 mile radius around Seattle/Tacoma and saw about 5 third gens just driving around in ONE DAY !!!!!!!!!!!
I will be back in 2017. In total, I scooped up 5 cars for peanuts lol
I have a friend in the army that went out and bought an iroc just because he fell in love with my 88 i had in high school, they definitely stood out as its own. i dont think there a dying breed, i think these cars are to a select crowd that like them or grew up during the time.
I've driven into GM dealerships in my third gens and a few of the older employees stop me while im looking at the new camaros because they noticed the third gen and wants to know if im selling. I feel more like the sales man sometimes just because when they see a nice one come into the lot they know its hard to find a nice one.
I was born in '81, so I basically grew up with third gens being the street car to have. It was all Camaro vs Mustang.
I'm a hardcore Chevy guy and first gen Camaros are iconic. Like everyone said, however, they are very common projects. While third gens themselves are far from rare, high quality builds are.
I got a third gen for the overall value of the package. I was able to get a solid, good looking, reliable driver for less than the price of a basket case first gen. From the factory, the average third gen accelerates, handles and stops better than the average stock first or second gen. A lot of first gens had hotter factory motors, but a better engine is not a major project. Even I tend to exaggerate the factory performance of most cars from the muscle car era. When I was a kid I had a solid, stock 1972 Nova with the basic 350. I'm pretty sure my mostly stock 305 RS with 3.73s could take it in a drag race, and it would have no chance in any other type of race.
I guess I didn't know that the"8" in Z28 stood for V8????
Z28 is actually an RPO codefor suspension upgrade on early 67 cars...GM decided to use the code for the car.
My Suburban is a Z71 & that's a suspension package too.
GM also used Z06, Z24, Z26, Z34, Z71 & even ZR1. I think Z24 was a 4 cyl Cavalier, Z26 was 6cyl Beretta & Z34 is the 3.4l Lumina & I think the later Monte Carlo. GM changed the meaning later on possibly but Z28 is suspension package.
Most of us older Thirdgen guys grew up in a time when the older generation already did all the things we were trying to figure out back in the eighties when we were new to the car world. Back then a newbie could seek the guidance of an older uncle or a knowledgeable older gear-head buddy on how to dial in a carb or set the vac advance springs correctly inside the distributor canister. Everyone back then seemed to have a car in their yard that they were working on and swapping a motor or drivetrain was something that just about any level-headed guy could accomplish with hand tools and a little guidance.
Fast forward 30 years later ----->
This generation of "gear-heads" is VERY different. If they go to the older crowd ( now US ) with questions about their ride we simply don't have answers to the questions they have about todays cars. Todays generation is all about tuning; they are willing to plug into the PCM and make software changes but most have little ( if any ) desire to do any wrench-work. While some of the younger car crowd might have an appreciation for our antiques - generally speaking - they are not nearly as mechanically inclined as the previous generation (us).
Quick Example; Had a younger guy stop here and ask me about his Z28s' speedo problems about a week ago. I explained that since the previous owner of his car had swapped the rear end he would need to change his speedo gears in the tranny to correct the problem. "Can't I just re-program the computer? " he asked. "NO" I said,... "you have to pull the sending unit and tail-shaft to swap the speedo gears." "Screw that,... I'll just deal with it reading 15 MPH off." His approach is common with the younger crowd and I can recite many examples of similar instances. They are willing to punch a few key-strokes to modify/correct problems, but to get under a car and work on it for a couple hours,........ Nope, not happinin' ! Most of the time they would rather pay a mechanic.
Manufactures are also to blame for this generational shift. Back then something as mundane as replacing a timing chain used to be rather simple; Today; If I want to replace the timing chain on my 04 Trailblazer I'd have to remove both front axles, & drop the oil pan just to be able to get the timing cover off. That timing chain has something like 5 timing marks and the chain has to be rotated a stupid number of times before all those points will line up properly. ( ridiculous ! ) Many cars today also need to be lifted off their engine cradle to remove the engine and that is simply not possible for majority of the population. Heck,..... You can't even swap in a year/make/mode specific GM radio into a car/truck of the same make/model/year unless it gets programmed by the dealer so it will work ! Just as these cars have just about disappeared from all the boneyards, so has our generation of gear-head mentality. We are dinosaurs - accept it !
Most of us older Thirdgen guys grew up in a time when the older generation already did all the things we were trying to figure out back in the eighties when we were new to the car world. Back then a newbie could seek the guidance of an older uncle or a knowledgeable older gear-head buddy on how to dial in a carb or set the vac advance springs correctly inside the distributor canister. Everyone back then seemed to have a car in their yard that they were working on and swapping a motor or drivetrain was something that just about any level-headed guy could accomplish with hand tools and a little guidance.
Fast forward 30 years later ----->
This generation of "gear-heads" is VERY different. If they go to the older crowd ( now US ) with questions about their ride we simply don't have answers to the questions they have about todays cars. Todays generation is all about tuning; they are willing to plug into the PCM and make software changes but most have little ( if any ) desire to do any wrench-work. While some of the younger car crowd might have an appreciation for our antiques - generally speaking - they are not nearly as mechanically inclined as the previous generation (us).
Quick Example; Had a younger guy stop here and ask me about his Z28s' speedo problems about a week ago. I explained that since the previous owner of his car had swapped the rear end he would need to change his speedo gears in the tranny to correct the problem. "Can't I just re-program the computer? " he asked. "NO" I said,... "you have to pull the sending unit and tail-shaft to swap the speedo gears." Most of the time they would rather pay a mechanic.
ARE WE A DYING BREED?? ------> Yes,...... period.
You have some good points. Now it's true that not long after the 3rd ten cars, one could go into the PCM and change their speedo via the calibration. And that's actually pretty cool. So many times I heard and saw folks w/ speedometers off. Taller tires, or on most lifted trucks w/ gear changes, in the 1980s, nobody went into the trans and changed gears. Nobody but the really dedicated gear heads.
So did they have nobody to emulate? Actually they DID... They emulate the lazy, get things quick crowd, and are satisfied with a job done 95% of the way. That's the way most people are today. Instant gratification, and little to no follow-through.
Shortcuts are not new though. But the it seems more rampant today
06-23-2016, 02:28 PM
Agree, but at least they are in the game 
Need somebody to buy my junk when I get really old... 
You have some good points. Now it's true that not long after the 3rd ten cars, one could go into the PCM and change their speedo via the calibration. And that's actually pretty cool. So many times I heard and saw folks w/ speedometers off. Taller tires, or on most lifted trucks w/ gear changes, in the 1980s, nobody went into the trans and changed gears. Nobody but the really dedicated gear heads. 
