CPC Norwood

Need some help here. Is there a board member with a known unmolested car that can scan the headlight black out portion of the front header fasica with a Spectrophotometer and post up the paint mix codes?


This would be a great service to the board and the research being accomplished here

scottmoyer

I'd be happy to do it if I knew where to go to have the Spectrophotometer used.

skinny z

This something I'd like to know as well (seeing as there'll be a paint job eventually) however wouldn't any "known unmolested car" have paint that's been exposed to the sun for 25 years or more?
Just asking.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Most auto body supply shops should have the widget that they use to take a snapshot of the paint color so they can mix paint to match. From what I've seen it comes pretty close.

I'd imagine the hard part would be getting the gloss right. Even with the exact paint GM used, I'd expect different results based on prep and application.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Even low mile, meticulously maintained cars have the headlight buckets carrying more gloss that they did from the factory. Just washing and wiping tends to polish them up. Multiply by 25-30 years and the effect is multiplied exponentially. I noticed this on my black '89 of which I am the original owner of. I know for a fact that the finish was more flat when new.

This all came to the forefront when I got my new '89 convertible this week. Until 2013 it was essentially sealed in a wrapper. Judging by the factory orange peel in the paint, I wouldn't surprised if it has never been buffed or maybe even waxed in it's life. The headlight buckets, hood louvers and grill insert are a completely dead flat black. After seeing what an untouched one looks like again, I now want to modify the finish of my other '89 and '85 to return their finishes to factory specs.

CPC Norwood

Yes that's the problem... They tend to "gloss up" as you say.

Here is the PPG color match system: http://platinumpaints.com.au/car-pai...tometer-detail

Most any jobber that mixes auto paints will take a scan for free in the hope of selling you some paint. Process takes less than 10 minutes and you then get a tint formula that can be mixed on the spot.

Most of these guys will come to your house while they are calling on body shops to do scans for collision repairs too.

IROC-MIKE

The EXACT color is called 30 degree black. I believe the 30 degree refers to the angle at which it becomes "reflective". I know this is the color for all the exterior satin black finishes on most of the GM vehicles from the 80's - up as I worked in New Car Delivery and Parts Departments for a Chevy dealer from 87-93 and had the touchup paint in "mascara bottles" and small spray cans. Reading the Chevelle forum posting I supply below (link provided) it seems it was used since the 60s. Don't know if or when GM stopped using that color but you may be able to get it through the parts department even if its in the "mascara bottle" and you can check against the PPG match. The guy who wrote post #6 seems to know his stuff about this color. I may still have the paint cans & IF I find them I'll post pix of them with the part number. Heres the link to the Chevelle forum that talks about this color with a modern PPG formula for it:
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/35-r...er-liners.html
Post #6 has very good details and you should be able to get this mixed at a local body shop supply in a spray can.
I had to do touchup to one bucket on my (then girlfriend's, now wife's) 89 RS waaay back in 89 when it was just a few months old. Even new paint was still difficult to color match and get the metal flake to lay in an even appearance on a small section with the technology of the day. Would have had to cut & buff the entire nose to make it blend. Car is factory medium red metallic and rather than have it not be a "perfect" match (even if it was only noticeable by me) I decided to paint both buckets black. I used the GM 30 degree as specified for Z28 & IROC in the GM refinishing manuals the body shop had. The paint was also available in qt and gallon from GM, but we used a DuPont paint mixed to the GM color recipe along with flex agent so it wouldn't crack because the rubber fascia does "move" when in the sun for a long time. Didn't give it much thought, I just told the painter "match the Z28 in the showroom" and he did. They were new cars and it was a universal GM color every body shop had in stock or had easy access to. Didn't have all the color choices and color match technology like today but he matched the brand new Z28 that just I personally rolled off the carrier from Van Nuys, unwrapped and parked on "The Floor". Back then it was just another day in the spray booth. Now 25+ years later, stupid details like this are becoming a legitimate concern for restoration accuracy. A friend recently asked me what the proper black was when doing some light touch up on his immaculate 89 & told him I used 30 degree back in the day but never had to use it since but it got me curious. I later found the Chevelle forum posting when trying to get the paint code for him but his body shop already knew exactly what 30 degree black was when he asked. Ask a painter that's been in the business since the 80s and see if he knows of it. We still have her RS and the buckets look like the day they were painted. I can send you pix of them if you want but my painter is now retired so I cant help you there. IF you see a 3rd Gen and the buckets are shiny, they are NOT the way the factory delivered the car! Some dealerships put paint sealant on them during prep. Dumb salesmen thought they looked better under the showroom lights shiny and waxed them. Most got rubbing compounded to remove the acid rain etches (which was a huge problem from the factory) but that also changed the sheen and on this black it also causes a slight color shift. So even if you bought it brand new off the showroom floor, you may have the wrong color or shine (sheen). Unless you drove it directly off the carrier and prepped hundreds of them (like I was lucky enough to do) many people have a difficult time determining if their buckets are correct. You'll know when its right if all the black on the car ties together as the design team intended. Buckets should closely match the hood louvers, grille, door handles, t-top bar and mouldings and taillight bar (on the RS and early style Z28). The IROC / late style Z28 "grid" taillight paint was a little shinier for some reason.

CPC Norwood

WOW! Thanks!!!!!

skinny z

Great information.
Thanks IROC-MIKE. At the very least, the trim black on the old Sport Coupe needs to be redone. If I can get a spray can of this 30 degree black, then the project becomes a lot easier.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

IROC-MIKE

Glad I could help. My wifes RS is stored at her moms house (since 2001) or I would post pix but from reading the highly detailed post on the Chevelle site I'd say its pretty safe to use that paint recipe. Some of those cars have a sixth digit in their values so you know those guys want to get it right. You got noting to lose but a few bucks on the paint. Spray it on a test piece and hold it by the door handle or hood louvers; they should look the same in color and reflection.
Work keeps me from visiting the boards as often as I'd like but I will always answer a PM. I don't post often but people here who know me know I'm a bit of a Third Gen history nerd, so if anyone has technical Q's regarding how a Camaro was delivered from the factory to the dealer or dealer to customer feel free to ask. I was in grade school when the 82 was introduced and was instantly hooked. I started learning everything there was to know about them & collected everything I could find because I knew some day I would own one. Not an easy thing to do in the pre-internet days but having a friend at a Chevy Dealer really helped because he would give me boxes of stuff they used in the Parts, Sales & Service Departments. I worked for a small local Chevy Dealer right when I got out of HS in 87 (yeah I guess that makes me officially old) and did delivery prep until 93. Besides the normal dealer prep detailing, I installed the chin spoilers and other items that were left inside the car from the factory. I was young and eager to learn so I also worked in the parts department and was training nights in sales because I planned on making it my lifetime career. I aspired to own the dealership when I got older but that dream was crushed when the recession of the early 90's destroyed the auto industry and put the dealership out of business. I have an extensive archive library of dealership materials for the entire 82-92 run which I still read for fun today. But just as with any history, reading a book isn't the same as living it so if something historical or technical has you stumped, please test my knowledge. I love a challenge and want to see everyone do it right which is why I joined TGO.

botch1

I see that you state that your 86 Yellow Iroc is a factory test car. What does that mean? Your car is a yellow 305 Carb 5-speed. I ask this because my friend has a 86 yellow Iroc Z hardtop with the 305 Carb and 5-speed trans. Its a real nice car but not a real low mile car or in mint condition. JIM

IROC-MIKE

Don't want to hijack this thread and get off subject so I apologize to all following this for the headlight buckets. My yellow 86 was delivered with about 200 miles on it and there was a letter from GM stating something to the effect it was used for quality control purposes. Havent looked at it for over 20 years but its in a binder for the car so I'll post a pic when I dig it out. I bought the car in 87 from the original owner, but got the dealer invoice and delivery paperwork that showed it rolled off the carrier with the 200 miles. As I said, I worked for a Chevy Dealership from 87-93 so I was the first person to drive them since the last person loaded it off the assembly line and almost every one had less than 1 or 2 miles on the clock. FFWD to 2009 and I get a 3rd Gen delivered by a nationwide transport co and the driver tells me he worked at Van Nuys in the 80s. Without me even saying anything, he told me he got an F Body to drive for a weekend (sometimes a whole week) to evaluate the build quality for his department. They were customer cars picked at random after assembly so the line workers didn't do anything different to get better quality results. He said they would pick 5 speed / t-top cars because they were fun to drive in sunny CA. I said I had one of those cars and had the letter from GM that came with the car. He said GM cancelled the program for the general line workers because one employee brought a car back from a weekend evaluation with over 500 miles and bald rear tires and management was furious. It was pretty obvious he was street racing the car and it was such a big deal they couldn't deliver the car for fear it was abused more than just smoking the tires. The guy was fired and only certain line supervisors got to evaluate. He said it was when the IROCs were just released and remembers hearing how expensive the Gatorbacks cost because of this idiot. Now, this was told to me by someone I don't know but his specific details were so in line with what info I had from 20 years ago, I can only assume his story is at least partly true. I know GM kept the VIN of these "test" cars as the letter I have said the additional mileage was going to be added to the warranty. Mine yellow one is a November production car which may have been chosen to catch any quality issues before they churned out thousands. Apparently it checked off all the boxes: 5 speed / T-top / yellow / IROC.
On a side note: I also have the little window sticker that said "Property of General Motors" which was on the car instead of the normal window sticker. Could have been put there to deter bad behavior by evaluators but those labels were common on the very early builds as pricing was still not set when the car was built. The actual window sticker was mailed to the dealer with the invoice and MSO.

92GTA

iTrader: (11)

30 degree black is a new term to me, cool haha! I always just thought it was "GM Trim Black".

IROC-MIKE

Here are some pix for you.
The Test Vehicle letter looks like a crude fake but its 100% authentic and in my possession since 1987. They were simply photocopied by GM possibly at the factory, but that was the technology back then. I am dedicated to preserving the history and integrity of authentic cars so I hope you can understand I blocked off the lower portion of the letter and upper corner of the sticker to prevent duplication. Because the "test cars" are nearly impossible to document even with one of these letters, you could imagine some dealer trying to hype up his car on ebay with a copy of it and ripping off one of our community. I have NEVER seen another letter and I've been collecting since the 3rd Gens were introduced ANd worked in New Car Delivery for a Chevy Dealer 87-93.
Someone asked me to confirm what he believed to be an Engineering Test Prototype Car (1985 IROC TPI). I was able to document it was delivered to GM Proving Grounds for the fuel and emissions testing which specifically shows CPC Engineering/GM Proving Grounds as the ship to address AND owner of that car. Even the cars owner (who bought it in 87) didn't have one of these letters but had rumor of it being a test vehicle when he bought it. Of course when I document a car I provide a signed copy so potential buyers know I authenticated it.

The Warranty Booklet is from the same car and it shows it was delivered with 190 miles in Feb 86. The neat thing about this booklet is the dealer went through the trouble of using a typewriter (ever seen one of those fossils?) to fill in all the fields. Most of them were just handwritten or even left blank.

The Property of General Motors "waterslide" window sticker also came with the car. It actually has a pert number in the upper left corner. It was stuck on the inside of the windshield on the passengers side. I was able to tell where it was located because I bought the car almost 1 year from the original delivery date in Feb 87 and I could see the little square area where it was when the windshield fogged up. Lucky for me I bought it so new and the inside hadn't been cleaned too much or it would have been wiped off.
During my years at the Chevy Dealership, I determined these stickers were used for a number of applications across the entire GM line besides the "test" vehicles. They were on very early production cars where option pricing wasn't determined at time of manufacture. They also came on fleet vehicles where companies like Hertz or Bell Telephone bought hundreds of identical vehicles that never got window stickers because they were built specifically for them and considered a "sold unit". Some of the Police Vehicles got them. If the car was sent to an outside vendor such as ASC for Camaro Convertible Corvettes for Callaway mods, or even a conversion van like ChooChoo Customs, the car was still considered to be at a GM assembly facility but those vendors did not always the window sticker (or a small add on sticker) at their final assembly plant. I have not confirmed this with any official GM authority but having seen this firsthand during the actual time period, I can say without any doubt I have personally removed a few of those labels in those instances. They also came with a black printing instead of blue.

Motown

My lower grille insert has been replaced at one point with the aftermarket gloss version.

I wonder if its worth trying to find some of this 30 degree black paint in a can, along with some sort of silver for the lettering and restoring the lower grille to look somewhat original again...since correct matte versions can't be found.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

I just wrapped up refurbishing the grill on my 87 Iroc. It had pits, UV damage, some scratches, and of course front license plate bracket holes. It didn't seem like it'd be all that difficult to smooth out the surface and fill the scratches and holes, but it took a lot longer than I expected. The finished product looks pretty good, but it was a lot of work. I'm not sure I'd do it again just to go from gloss to flat.

Might look into a semi-gloss clear you can spray over the existing finish to flatten the gloss a bit. Just make sure anything you want to apply to the grill is compatible with the plastic. I want to say the OE grills were polycarbonate, check the markings on the back.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

Seems like a basic semi-gloss.

CPC Norwood

Update: As pointed out in this thread the color is called 30 degree black.

The paint code is 09 and is listed as an S-10 color in use from 1982-1986.

Saxondale

iTrader: (2)

Shop used SEM Trim Black on my buckets. They look excellent. Don't have any detail photos yet. But the buckets perfectly match the black of the Phoenix Graphix hood decals. I don't know how well the SEM Trim Black will hold up, but at present is perfect IMO.

scottmoyer

Will you get the ground effects on this car already?

gt4373

Was Also Wondering Why They Haven't Been Installed Yet.

Saxondale

iTrader: (2)

Yeah. After St Paul Street Machine Nationals it went back to the shop for buffing, underside and fender well detail work, installed spoiler, building doors, bunch of miscellaneous items. I did not rush anyone so were some gaps between activities. But at this point we were both getting a bit worn out.

Even the spoiler got resprayed because was not quite up to spec.

Got it home yesterday, so now can start with that work.