Search



Go Back   Third Generation F-Body Message Boards > Tech Boards > Engine Swap > LTX and LSX
Register Forgot Password?

LTX and LSX Putting LT1s, LS1s, and their variants into Third Gens is becoming more popular. This board is for those who are doing and have done the swaps so they can discuss all of their technical aspects including repairs, swap info, and performance upgrades.

Welcome to ThirdGen.org!
Welcome to ThirdGen.org.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, join the ThirdGen.org community today!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-26-2010, 06:58 PM   #1
Member
 
BahN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 178
Car: 1987 Trans AM
Engine: Twin Turbo 6.0 LS2
Transmission: T56

Classifieds Rating: (0)
LT1 ignition issues? Help

Hey guys, got my LT1 in the car. Just finished up my wiring. And heres where the troubles begin.

I'm able to connect, read, and program my ECM. So the ecms getting the correct power (both constant, and on ignition). The car wont start. So i decided to check RPM on my datalogger to see if the opti was telling the ecm the motor was spinning. Even with the key in the on position (not cranking) it shows 50 RPM, while cranking it stays the same. 50 RPM, dosnt move. I've checked my wires to the opti and made sure they are right. I know on some models its easy to put the opti connector in backwards, but mines in right.

Any ideas? =/
BahN is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2010, 08:10 PM   #2
Supreme Member
 
Klortho's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kingston, Tn
Posts: 2,923
Car: 1987 GTA
Engine: LT1
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 9 bolt 3.70 posi

Classifieds Rating: (0)

Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

Make sure you have power to the coil, the C100 connector in the LT1 harness has the wires in it, also make sure you are getting power to the injectors, there are two pink wires in the C100 LT1 connector has those wires also. (I actually found my old wiring diagrams from when I wired mine up)

Click the image to open in full size.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg c100.jpg (282.3 KB, 136 views)
Klortho is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 11:42 AM   #3
Member
 
BahN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 178
Car: 1987 Trans AM
Engine: Twin Turbo 6.0 LS2
Transmission: T56

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

i checked all wiring and its fine. However i did notice that the ECM is grounding out all the injectors (they already have ignition power via the pink wires) so they are always on. I disconnected every ECM cable except the red and retested. Same thing. So then i checked every pin on the red connector for a ground, only one, pin 2 which is suppose to be a PCM ground, so thats fine. I then probbed the ECM pins itself via an ohm meter. Over half of the pins have very little to no resistance with the ECM ground, including all the injectors.

Pretty sure its a bad ECM unless anyone can shed some light?
BahN is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 12:27 PM   #4
Supreme Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Nebraska Tri-Cities
Posts: 3,699
Car: 86 TA
Engine: LT1
Transmission: 4L60E

Classifieds Rating: (7)
Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

I wouldn't suspect the pcm right away. If its reading, scanning, and able to program then its probably good.

Got fuel pressure? Fuel pump on, hear the fuel pump when turning on the key? I think there is a theft det relay that can cause the car not to start if you don't wire it out, even with vats programmed out.

Could also test the coil: http://shbox.com/1/coil_testing.jpg

Could also test if signals are getting to the opti: http://shbox.com/1/4th_gen_tech2.html#opti_test
Firebat is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 01:01 PM   #5
Member
 
BahN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 178
Car: 1987 Trans AM
Engine: Twin Turbo 6.0 LS2
Transmission: T56

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

just got back from a junkyard, their LT1 ecms do the same thing mine does, so i agree, not the ecm. I have already programmed and wired out VATS, i have fuel pressure and my pump is brand new and running. I haven't tested the opti yet, i will go do that now and get back to you.

Last edited by BahN; 03-27-2010 at 01:31 PM.
BahN is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 01:49 PM   #6
Member
 
BahN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 178
Car: 1987 Trans AM
Engine: Twin Turbo 6.0 LS2
Transmission: T56

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

k, did some testing, i have no power on pins A or D on the ICM harness. The coil is brandnew, so is the plug wires. Below is a picture i made with my results with the ignition in the On position.

Are these correct? I cant find pinouts for the opti harness anywhere.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg volts.JPG (8.3 KB, 17 views)
BahN is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 02:26 PM   #7
Supreme Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Nebraska Tri-Cities
Posts: 3,699
Car: 86 TA
Engine: LT1
Transmission: 4L60E

Classifieds Rating: (7)
Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

I'm going off of this:
Click the image to open in full size.

ICM connector unplugged - You shouldn't have 12V on pin C of ICM. Its shown as going to ground, your ground is probably not connnected. C should equal 0V and also measure 0 ohms to ground for resistance. A should be +12V with the key on. D and B - wouldn't worry so much about voltage, you should measure resistance across D and A and it should be the same resistance as the coil, with the ignition key off of course.

Last edited by Firebat; 03-27-2010 at 02:38 PM. Reason: Changes in bold and underlined, additions only in bold
Firebat is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 02:34 PM   #8
Supreme Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Nebraska Tri-Cities
Posts: 3,699
Car: 86 TA
Engine: LT1
Transmission: 4L60E

Classifieds Rating: (7)
Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

http://shbox.com/1/4th_gen_tech2.html#1995_pcm_pinouts

Opti connector- looking at the pic on my previous post,
D=B3
C=B14
B=B20
A=B2

Click the image to open in full size.

*Note: these diagrams are for a 95 camaro/firebird LT1, if you have a different model car or year, it may vary slightly, or may not
Firebat is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 04:13 PM   #9
Member
 
BahN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 178
Car: 1987 Trans AM
Engine: Twin Turbo 6.0 LS2
Transmission: T56

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

thanks for the replys, ill go out and check everything and get back to you!
BahN is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 05:05 PM   #10
Supreme Member
 
Klortho's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kingston, Tn
Posts: 2,923
Car: 1987 GTA
Engine: LT1
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 9 bolt 3.70 posi

Classifieds Rating: (0)

Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

Here's one of the main ones you want to check and make sure of, there are more than one grounds going to the PCM as shown below.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1995_pcm_conn_a.jpg (91.2 KB, 115 views)
File Type: jpg 1995_pcm_conn_c.jpg (95.5 KB, 113 views)
File Type: jpg 1995_pcm_conn_d.jpg (85.5 KB, 113 views)
Klortho is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 05:06 PM   #11
Supreme Member
 
Klortho's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kingston, Tn
Posts: 2,923
Car: 1987 GTA
Engine: LT1
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 9 bolt 3.70 posi

Classifieds Rating: (0)

Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

Also, don't forget there are two power wires that goto the PCM, a pink switched and an orange constant.
__________________
1987 GTA, LT1/T56 BW 9bolt 3.70 posi
1 of 372 Midnight Russet Metallic
Klortho is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 05:14 PM   #12
Member
 
BahN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 178
Car: 1987 Trans AM
Engine: Twin Turbo 6.0 LS2
Transmission: T56

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

K, i checked my icm wiring is different from the diagrams? I drew a picture below. Also my opti wiring checks out fine. i have 0 resistance between A and D. I don't think my opti is telling my ecm its turning. Because i have no injectors firing. Also is there a wire that goes from the ECM to the starter solenoid to tell it it's cranking? or does the opti do that?

Edit: Saw your new posts, My ecm is getting the correct 12v constant and 12v on ignition. Also, my ecm has 3 grounds they go to the ICM bolt in the head. The block is grounded via a intake to firewall ground, and a battery to passenger side head bolt ground. I have confirmed the ground is working.

Also, i'm not using the fuel pump relay at all. I have my fuel pump on an ignition source. Shouldn't be an issue should it?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ICMwtf.JPG (24.8 KB, 14 views)

Last edited by BahN; 03-27-2010 at 05:20 PM.
BahN is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 06:16 PM   #13
Supreme Member
 
Klortho's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kingston, Tn
Posts: 2,923
Car: 1987 GTA
Engine: LT1
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 9 bolt 3.70 posi

Classifieds Rating: (0)

Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

Should be a big ground coming off of the coil as well that goes to the driver side frame rail, without that on there that may be your problem....let me go out and take a picture of it and I'll post it up.
__________________
1987 GTA, LT1/T56 BW 9bolt 3.70 posi
1 of 372 Midnight Russet Metallic
Klortho is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 06:21 PM   #14
Member
 
BahN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 178
Car: 1987 Trans AM
Engine: Twin Turbo 6.0 LS2
Transmission: T56

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

thanks so much man, i really appreciate you trying to help me out here. I'm dieing to get this motor started. I hooked up my tuner and was able to pull some DTC's. Its throwing 36 and 41:

36 Distributor ignition system (faulty high resolution pulse or extra low resolution pulse detected)

41 Ignition Control (IC) circuit (open circuit)
BahN is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 06:21 PM   #15
Supreme Member
 
Klortho's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kingston, Tn
Posts: 2,923
Car: 1987 GTA
Engine: LT1
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 9 bolt 3.70 posi

Classifieds Rating: (0)

Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

Here's the pic, sorry about the quality...crappy cell phone.

blah, it doesn't look right, I'll have to wait until my digital camera gets home, but basically it's a large amount of wires that goes to the coil in a bundle and has a grounding strap that goes to the driver side frame rail
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMAG0021.jpg (127.0 KB, 26 views)
Klortho is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 06:24 PM   #16
Member
 
BahN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 178
Car: 1987 Trans AM
Engine: Twin Turbo 6.0 LS2
Transmission: T56

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

ok, is it one of those braided grounds?
BahN is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 06:40 PM   #17
Supreme Member
 
Klortho's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kingston, Tn
Posts: 2,923
Car: 1987 GTA
Engine: LT1
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 9 bolt 3.70 posi

Classifieds Rating: (0)

Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

Yes, goes on a lug on the coil bracket to the head, also has a set of grounds on it also.
__________________
1987 GTA, LT1/T56 BW 9bolt 3.70 posi
1 of 372 Midnight Russet Metallic
Klortho is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 06:45 PM   #18
Member
 
BahN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 178
Car: 1987 Trans AM
Engine: Twin Turbo 6.0 LS2
Transmission: T56

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

Ok, i have the ones circled in red in this picture. None of them go to the frame rail though. Also whats this in the blue circle? on mine it goes directly on top of the coil itself??
Attached Images
File Type: jpg icm.JPG (66.4 KB, 111 views)
BahN is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 09:05 PM   #19
Member
 
BahN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 178
Car: 1987 Trans AM
Engine: Twin Turbo 6.0 LS2
Transmission: T56

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

checked connections and reset codes. No more 36 or 41, but its still not firing. I tryed 4 different times after clearing the codes. However non of the other codes like coolant sensor came on like they did before. How long does it take to throw a code??
BahN is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 09:12 PM   #20
Supreme Member
 
Klortho's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kingston, Tn
Posts: 2,923
Car: 1987 GTA
Engine: LT1
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 9 bolt 3.70 posi

Classifieds Rating: (0)

Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

What is circled in blue is not right, those connectors hook up to the coil itself.

Click the image to open in full size.
__________________
1987 GTA, LT1/T56 BW 9bolt 3.70 posi
1 of 372 Midnight Russet Metallic
Klortho is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 09:20 PM   #21
Supreme Member
 
Klortho's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kingston, Tn
Posts: 2,923
Car: 1987 GTA
Engine: LT1
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 9 bolt 3.70 posi

Classifieds Rating: (0)

Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

I bet these are going to be huge, but here are some pics of mine, I couldn't get the MAF out of the way, but I think I got some of the connectors on the coil as well.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSCF5906.JPG (913.6 KB, 109 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF5907.JPG (893.2 KB, 111 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF5908.JPG (888.8 KB, 112 views)
Klortho is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 09:21 PM   #22
Supreme Member
 
Klortho's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kingston, Tn
Posts: 2,923
Car: 1987 GTA
Engine: LT1
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 9 bolt 3.70 posi

Classifieds Rating: (0)

Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

a few more

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSCF5909.JPG (929.3 KB, 118 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF5910.JPG (880.9 KB, 113 views)
Klortho is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 09:25 PM   #23
Supreme Member
 
Klortho's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kingston, Tn
Posts: 2,923
Car: 1987 GTA
Engine: LT1
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 9 bolt 3.70 posi

Classifieds Rating: (0)

Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

Found this also, may help out as well (it is a '93, but the layout is the same)

Click the image to open in full size.
__________________
1987 GTA, LT1/T56 BW 9bolt 3.70 posi
1 of 372 Midnight Russet Metallic
Klortho is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 09:41 PM   #24
Member
 
BahN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 178
Car: 1987 Trans AM
Engine: Twin Turbo 6.0 LS2
Transmission: T56

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

thanks, ill run a ground tomorrow or later tonight and check. Do you know if their is a diff between the 96-97 ICM and the 94-95? I'm running a 94-95 coil with an 96-97 ICM, i just noticed the part #'s are different.
BahN is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2010, 03:01 PM   #25
Supreme Member
 
chevyowner02's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kingsport Tenn
Posts: 1,009
Car: 1992 camaro
Engine: LT1
Transmission: 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3:42

Classifieds Rating: (2)

Send a message via Yahoo to chevyowner02
Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by BahN View Post
thanks, ill run a ground tomorrow or later tonight and check. Do you know if their is a diff between the 96-97 ICM and the 94-95? I'm running a 94-95 coil with an 96-97 ICM, i just noticed the part #'s are different.
I know the coils are diffirent so I would say the ICM is also.
chevyowner02 is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2010, 03:34 PM   #26
Member
 
BahN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 178
Car: 1987 Trans AM
Engine: Twin Turbo 6.0 LS2
Transmission: T56

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

think that could be my problem?
BahN is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2010, 08:43 PM   #27
Supreme Member
 
chevyowner02's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kingsport Tenn
Posts: 1,009
Car: 1992 camaro
Engine: LT1
Transmission: 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3:42

Classifieds Rating: (2)

Send a message via Yahoo to chevyowner02
Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by BahN View Post
think that could be my problem?
Could be I know you can run the 96-97 coil off the 94-95 ICM but I don't know if you can run it the other way.
chevyowner02 is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2010, 08:22 PM   #28
Member
 
BahN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 178
Car: 1987 Trans AM
Engine: Twin Turbo 6.0 LS2
Transmission: T56

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

ok, update. Changed ICM to a 94-95 model. Same thing. Tuner dosnt see any revs. Just shows 50 at all times even when not cranking. I read somewhere else that the ecm shows 50 rpm at all times even when not cranking, is this true? If so, could it be that might starter/battery are not cranking the motor fast enough? It does sound a little weak, but i think it's hitting 70-80 at least.

Also, after checking all my wiring, i'm pretty sure it's not the issue. Only one thing left, the opti.

Any last ditch ideas before I pull it?
BahN is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2010, 10:36 PM   #29
Supreme Member
 
chevyowner02's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kingsport Tenn
Posts: 1,009
Car: 1992 camaro
Engine: LT1
Transmission: 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3:42

Classifieds Rating: (2)

Send a message via Yahoo to chevyowner02
Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

Yea you can try this befor you pull it http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=601565
chevyowner02 is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2010, 11:38 PM   #30
Member
 
BahN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 178
Car: 1987 Trans AM
Engine: Twin Turbo 6.0 LS2
Transmission: T56

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

problem narrowed down to the battery. If i keep the ignition on and unplug the coil from the opti. I can manually spin the crank and you hear the injectors fire, and see spark via a plug. When i crank with the starter i don't see spark. And it cranks slow. So my battery doesn't have enough amps to push it through apparently.
BahN is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2010, 08:10 PM   #31
Member
 
BahN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 178
Car: 1987 Trans AM
Engine: Twin Turbo 6.0 LS2
Transmission: T56

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

Problem found! But no solved.

The line i choose for 12v when ignition is on has NO voltage while the engine is cranking. Where's a good line to steal this power from for a 87 that use to be an LG4 CCCarb?
BahN is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2010, 08:23 PM   #32
Supreme Member
 
Klortho's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kingston, Tn
Posts: 2,923
Car: 1987 GTA
Engine: LT1
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 9 bolt 3.70 posi

Classifieds Rating: (0)

Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

Pretty much any pink wire, that will be a switched 12v source, just test it a couple of times to see if it turns on and off with the key.
__________________
1987 GTA, LT1/T56 BW 9bolt 3.70 posi
1 of 372 Midnight Russet Metallic
Klortho is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2010, 08:44 PM   #33
Member
 
BahN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 178
Car: 1987 Trans AM
Engine: Twin Turbo 6.0 LS2
Transmission: T56

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

IT LIVES!!!!!
BahN is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2010, 09:46 AM   #34
Supreme Member
 
Klortho's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kingston, Tn
Posts: 2,923
Car: 1987 GTA
Engine: LT1
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 9 bolt 3.70 posi

Classifieds Rating: (0)

Re: LT1 ignition issues? Help

WOOT....awesome, it always is a good feeling when it fires up for the first time.
__________________
1987 GTA, LT1/T56 BW 9bolt 3.70 posi
1 of 372 Midnight Russet Metallic
Klortho is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2010, 09:46 AM
ThirdGen
1992 Camaro




Paid Advertisement


Reply

Go Back   Third Generation F-Body Message Boards > Tech Boards > Engine Swap > LTX and LSX

Tags
36, 50rpm, braided, coil, control, dtc, engine, ground, icm, ignition, issues, lt1, module, resistance, wire
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 


1982 Camaro '82 || 1983 Camaro '83 || 1984 Camaro '84 || 1985 Camaro '85 || 1986 Camaro '86 || 1987 Camaro '87 || 1988 Camaro '88 || 1989 Camaro '89 || 1990 Camaro '90 || 1991 Camaro '91 || 1992 Camaro '92


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All content copyright 1997 - 2014 ThirdGen.org. All rights reserved. No part of this website may be reproduced without the expressed, documented, and written consent of ThirdGen.org's Administrators.

Emails & Contact Details