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LTX and LSXPutting LT1s, LS1s, and their variants into Third Gens is becoming more popular. This board is for those who are doing and have done the swaps so they can discuss all of their technical aspects including repairs, swap info, and performance upgrades.
After countless hours of searching, I went with Dyno Don. Here were the things I considered: 1) fitment, 2) "D" ports, 1 7/8" primaries (383), Spark plug interference, "Y" pipe, and coating. Most of the swap threads here, were made back in the 2002-2006, or so, time frame and some of the headers are not available anymore. I'll order them next month.
I have one major problem with these projects, I'm too much of a perfectionist and when it all goes back together, I have to make it perfect in my mind. Maybe I need to visit a shrink.
After countless hours of searching, I went with Dyno Don. Here were the things I considered: 1) fitment, 2) "D" ports, 1 7/8" primaries (383), Spark plug interference, "Y" pipe, and coating. Most of the swap threads here, were made back in the 2002-2006, or so, time frame and some of the headers are not available anymore. I'll order them next month.
I have one major problem with these projects, I'm too much of a perfectionist and when it all goes back together, I have to make it perfect in my mind. Maybe I need to visit a shrink.
I agree that exhaust has been the worst part. There is nothing out there anymore except dyno dons. My trouble with those is that they would cost me $1000+CAD with shipping and y pipe. That seems outrageous for a shorty header. My hours of research and phone conversations and emails have led me to believe that shorties are a pretty small gain over stock manifolds when compared to long tube (and my goal,here is to make this sucker move!) I have considered that a different head is better money spent than fighting the d port battle (only because I will be doing heads regardless, although I want to do LE2 which are still d port). However I am still going to try these hedmen 68460 ($250CAD) and see if I can make them work with my stock catback. I too want everything to look good when done, as I plan to show the car in the future and do not want to redo things. For now I am making it work and then the motor comes out again at the end of summer and I will redo it as well as clean up my wiring.
I agree that exhaust has been the worst part. There is nothing out there anymore except dyno dons. My trouble with those is that they would cost me $1000+CAD with shipping and y pipe. That seems outrageous for a shorty header. My hours of research and phone conversations and emails have led me to believe that shorties are a pretty small gain over stock manifolds when compared to long tube (and my goal,here is to make this sucker move!) I have considered that a different head is better money spent than fighting the d port battle (only because I will be doing heads regardless, although I want to do LE2 which are still d port). However I am still going to try these hedmen 68460 ($250CAD) and see if I can make them work with my stock catback. I too want everything to look good when done, as I plan to show the car in the future and do not want to redo things. For now I am making it work and then the motor comes out again at the end of summer and I will redo it as well as clean up my wiring.
Please document every thing about the headers. I'm pretty close to Kook's which makes great exhaust systems for custom applications, but they are not cheap. I will go and see what they can do once I get the engine in place.
here is a video I threw together for now. when its more interesting I will spend more time on it. This video will continue to be updated at each stage of changes I will be making to my car. There was a time when the IROC was pulling consistent 15.2's on the GTECH @ I would be guessing to say a speed. Also that was back in the day when it was a factory automatic. So maybe its just me that's sucking out at launching (very well could be - I am relatively new to launching a standard car) or really I like to blame the old rubber. When I first got those tires 12 years ago I was disappointed because the car no longer could chirp tires shifting to 2nd (because they hooked so well), but I think they have lost their grip seeing how I can pretty much smoke tires on demand these days. I have been looking lots at my options for wheels but that stage will come, for now here is where I am.
I'm in the middle of a T56 / LT1 swap as well and I'm definitely going to gank your fuel line setup. I was hoping there was a plug-and-play solution.
Nice work!
Thanks. I was hoping there was an option as well, but even custom made used the adapters....go figure. I saw several that were running 30" length lines, and to me they look out of place hanging up so high but I guess that way they will be reusable for other applications.
Still battling this charging issue, hoping my addition of a 470ohm 1 watt resistor will do the trick, but have to wait for new alternator since I think I fried mine trying to figure it out.....chalk that up to a cost of business but it hurts no doubt about it $200 for a new alternator when I had a perfectly good working one. Now I am scared to try my new one, I don't want to fry it as well!! Should be in today and can test tonight, then update the thread I started on charging issue, hopefully with a conclusion. So last night I left the elec work for a bit and installed my eibach sportline spring kit which lowers the car 1.6" in the front and 1.3" in the rear. I like the results and decided its time to lose the mud flaps. Next time the wheels come off so will the flaps.
Last edited by 87iroctheo; 07-29-2015 at 11:44 AM.
Finished up 2 more tasks. The first being the install of my Sphon sub frame connectors, adjustable panhard bar, lower rear comtrol arms, and LRCA relocation brackets. What a huge difference in feel of the car. I was expecting it to feel different when I was launching and driving higher speeds, but man I instantly felt a difference right in town. It instantly felt tighter. I am very pleased with the results and also think it looks cool under the car now. The welding of the sub frame connectors was the worst. I would definitely advise people to find someone with a hoist to can use for an evening. With the car are ramps and jacked up at the back I got maybe 12" clearance. The welding was PIA but more so the metal prep with buffer wheel was PIA mostly because I only had a cup brush to work with, a wheel would have been mucho easier.
Last edited by 87iroctheo; 08-09-2015 at 03:12 AM.
Tonight's task that I worked on was my cruise. I took the module and the plug from the 95. This worked well because it is direct fit with the throttle cable bracket and throttle body. It was pretty straight forward to wire once I had the pinouts and schematic for it. I mounted it at drivers front where the old one was, just added a couple holes for the bolts to hold it in place. I took it out for a rip there bud and it worked flawlessly! I was a little worried because in the 95 the cruise was not working, so it must have been the MFL in that car. While I was at it i finally wired up my reverse soloniod lockout with the brake switch. So much easier to put in reverse with that sucker wired up also. Next up for projects is the dreaded long tube headers, I am pretty worried about this step but will keep you posted.
Last edited by 87iroctheo; 08-09-2015 at 03:12 AM.
Way to go! Congrats on getting that bad boy running! Don't let anyone discourage you or get down on you for going LT1. I finished my LT1-T56 a couple years back and I love it. The thing flat out hauls compared to stock. I liked seeing your creative power steering solutions as well as the coolant hoses. I actually did the exact same thing on both counts.
I am still not happy how my throttle cable set us is, what did you do for that? Was it a hybrid of the 2? I didn't fully follow what you did there.
~JAKE
Way to go! Congrats on getting that bad boy running!
I am still not happy how my throttle cable set us is, what did you do for that? Was it a hybrid of the 2? I didn't fully follow what you did there.
~JAKE
Thanks for jake for the reply! Sorry about the confusion with my throttle. I used everything from the 4th gen lt1. I liked the idea of keeping the stock cable with the stock bracket because I knew they worked together perfectly. As an added bonus now that I have installed the cruise from the 95 donar car having the stock bracket in place already, meant that the cruise hooked up to the throttle bracket and throttle body with ease no messing around required. So use ur factory throttle cable bracket or if ur like me misplace it when ur pulling the motor and have to go on ebay and fork out $50 for one (shipping included). As for cable I also used the factory cable and it works flawlessly. The mod I had to make to allow it to was in 2 places. First off where it clips to the firewall is different shape. The lt1 cable comes from a round hole while the third gen cable is more of a round hole with a rectangle through the center (the shape is like a WWF world championship belt....LOL back when I watched wrestling that's what it looked like anyways). Anyways the cable won't stay there, hence the vise grips in an earlier post. So I took a thin washer and used my die grinder to round it out a little larger and also the reduce it's thickness a little more so that the clips can expand. Once I got it fitting nice I put 4 tack welds on it to hold it to the firewall and the. Slapped a little paint on it to blend it in, looks good IMO. The second mod I had to do was shorten the cable on the pedal end. I simply crawled under the dash, took out all the slack In the cable and used a marker to mark where I wanted my clamp. Then I removed the cable, cut the factory stopped off and clamped on a new one at the location of my mark. Was prett simple, only tough part would be if u don't have access to a welder but I did see some guy used rivits instead, that works also. I hope that helps but if u need more pics let me know I could post some if need be.
Ahh that makes complete sense. Thanks for explaining that. I used the existing 3rd gen cable and had to jerry rig the throttle side with some creative plastic bushings and a zip tie. I like your method much better!
As far as your exhaust issues, I kept the same exhaust system I had from my old SBC setup. Headman shorties, with true dual 2.5 pipes. Not the most ideal I know, but bolted right up and I figure it's better than stock.
What do you think of how she moves now? I still have a hard time believing it's the same car, then again Coming from a 305 700r4, it's not. Haha.
-Jake
What do you think of how she moves now? I still have a hard time believing it's the same car, then again Coming from a 305 700r4, it's not. Haha.
-Jake
I love the new setup! Especially it's slower cruising town manners, my old TPI/t5 hated partial throttle in 1st, this thing just purs in the same situation. Plus the pull under full acceleration is much improved. Now that I have lower and added sub frame connectors it really does feel like a totally new car! I hope to put my wheels on soon (if they fit) and try it out. Of course I have to finish the headers, which I have drivers in just need to do passengers and make a y pipe, then done for the season. Will drive it until winter and enjoy it before I pull it all art again this winter to redo motor and tidy up all the wiring, etc.
It's wasn't a bad job, if I recall it was a weekend job and I had never done anything like that before. Pretty straight forward, just make sure you have all parts before you start, so you don't get in a bind and forced to part out the ying yang for one part. I tackled it in the same way I did this swap, I had a parts cars sitting beside me so that I knew I had everything, where everything went, plus it made it easier to figure out where exactly to cut holes and to what size. I remember selling my parts car for the same price I bought it for, so worked out great in that respect.
So its been awhile since I updated....not much to really on. I messed around with headers, they are a PIA! I started with hedman 68460 and had to beat the snot out of them to make them not rattle, even so I wasn't done with them before I had an "incident" with my car and as a result of the "incident" I had an opportunity to get my money back for them and I decided to go a different route I purchased some Hooker 2210 and they were 3 times the price, I wouldn't say they are 3x the quality but forsure they are better built, I still had to modify quite a bit to make them work. I monkeyed around with y 3 different y pipes on the hedmans and finally on my third try I got it right using 2.5" pipe and crushing it flat allowed me to maintain decent clearance (remember I am lowered) where it crossed under the transmission. That also got scrapped with the hookers as the are in a much lower position than the hedmans. I have pic of most of all this but they are poor due to my crappy iphone and not being at home while I did some of the work, so they aren't the most useful but will share if anyone is interested. the hookers weren't as concerned with crushing the pipe because the flanges are the lowest part of the exhaust now, with the hedmans it as the y pipe. I guess I would do it again with the hookers because they have the 1.75" primaries and those work much better with the D ports. Not that the 1-5/8 hedmans didn't work (they weren't leaking when I put them on, but I didn't get a chance to run them very long either). My knock sensor goes wild now with the long tubes so I need to try the resistor mod and see if that will help. I got my new wheels on with the help of some 1.5" spacers and messed around with a paint modification a bit, its not perfect but I am super excited about it. I still want to work on the transition line and perhaps paint the mirrors black also. It is hard winter here now so she sits in the garage waiting for me to clean up the wiring, and remove the tail shaft to get it modified to take the cable driven speedo. I am also looking to tune it and get some benfit from the LT and new rubber which should hook nice. Come spring get it it to the track and get some numbers out of it before I pull the motor and rebuild it. I hope everyone elses projects are coming along and that you all have a Merry Christmas!
Like how you painted the b pillar as a sort of hommage to the 4th gen
I'm thinking about doing the same thing with my GTA when I replace the windshield. There is some rust repair I need to do there and I think flat black, or a satin black cleared would look good there.
Also, once you get used to driving that car, your ET's are going to drop FAST. My best with the 700r4 was a 13.3 @ 103, and first time out with the T56 I ran a 13.7 @ 100mph. Sadly the next two runs are when the motor decided to let go. 2nd pass was a better launch, but it was only a 14.0 @ 99, but launched the car better. I took a look at a few things, oil pressure seemed good. But the 3rd pass was a 14.3 @ 96, and when I was pulling up to the slip booth I heard the dreaded knock and new my day was done.
Took a while, but now its back on the road as AFR 195cc headed LT1 with a goodly sized cam and a rebuilt shortblock and it is an utter blast to drive. I also have WAY more oil pressure than I know what to do with now lol.
Last edited by Thirdgen89GTA; 12-17-2015 at 09:36 PM.
Thirdgen89ta..what's oil pressure????? Lol. When I looked at the donor car and saw the low oil pressure after it was up to running temp, I said there is no way this motor will last a month. I played the 95 for a week before pulling the motor and had a hell of a good time, and could not believe how strong the motor still was with 263XXX Kms on the clock. The car clearly hadn't had an easy life judging by the rear tires smooth appearance. However after digging more I learnt of this low oil pressure issue and i am confident in my choice to run the motor for 1 season. I know what you mean about lowering ET, the car is so different with all the suspension mods I did and the different motor, trans, and rubber. I have only launched it and gone through the gears full out a hand ful of times. Which is why I want to run it for the season and get to know what it's really like so I can compare after my build. I see you're running the AFR 195, what kind of numbers did you get out of ur lt1 with those heads. When I looked at them then seemed too small for my intention but a recent classified ad for a set has peeked my interest....significantly cheaper than my LE2 plan.
Afr 195s are more than you will need on stock displacement lt1. My car pulls all the way to 7000rpm no problem.
If I were to do it again though I'd likely go with the comp port version of the afr 195s or the advanced induction 200cc package. Any more head than that and you will be making your peak power past 7000rpm and the stock pcm tables stop at 7000.
Cam is a custom grind from Lloyd Elliot. 231/239 on a 110lsa. I stayed conservative with the compression but could have run more than 11:1 on pump gas now that I have seen other people's results. Vids/clips are in the dog links.
Afr 195s are more than you will need on stock displacement lt1. My car pulls all the way to 7000rpm no problem.
If I were to do it again though I'd likely go with the comp port version of the afr 195s or the advanced induction 200cc package. Any more head than that and you will be making your peak power past 7000rpm and the stock pcm tables stop at 7000.
Cam is a custom grind from Lloyd Elliot. 231/239 on a 110lsa. I stayed conservative with the compression but could have run more than 11:1 on pump gas now that I have seen other people's results. Vids/clips are in the dog links.
My intention is to stroke it, go with the 383. I want to be sure I hit my 500hp goal and I see a 383 as my best bet with my limited knowledge at this point. From my understanding the 195 will a bit small for it. Does that sound about right?
I got a few things on the go in the dead of winter. For starters any 94/95 lt1 guys need to check out a site called fbodytech.com. It's an amazing site for anyone interested in tuning. U can download free tuning and data logging programs this Steveo guy made. They are hands down the best programs I used. I was just getting into tuning again with my lt1 and while doing a reflash my tunercats program (should have used Steveo download but stuck with what was familiar) froze and I lost my ECM. So now after many chats and mich research I am going to send it to tunercat to get the socket installed so I can buy an eprom programmer off eBay and correct this issue myself in the future. So now that I can't run the car and play with tuning I decided to turn my attention to cleaning up the engine bay and my franken harness. My new location for the ECM will be the factory location for the 87 as opposed to the ECM just sitting in the AC house, lol. I am currently checking to see if I could put a hole through the firewall just below the fan housing, and run my harness through there. Doing so would eliminate a ton of cutting and soldering and lengthening of wires. Lastly I am debating pulling the tail shaft off the the t56 and getting alloy to machine it for my mech speedo. I know this is the route I want to go and he guy I want doing just not sure if now is the time (effort to remove with it in the car when next winter the motor and trans will be out anyways, and the current exchange rate is a deterrent...though that doesn't look like it will improve anytime soon).
At the beginning of my swap I read 2 different opinions on engine mounts. One stated that stock mounts would work another said I needed passenger mount from Impala (I think). Either way now that I have my hooker headers in I can clearly see that the motor is not sitting level. I believe this to be the result of the motor mount (I went with stock mounts from l98). Am I correct here or is there something else going on? See pic for visual.
At the beginning of my swap I read 2 different opinions on engine mounts. One stated that stock mounts would work another said I needed passenger mount from Impala (I think). Either way now that I have my hooker headers in I can clearly see that the motor is not sitting level. I believe this to be the result of the motor mount (I went with stock mounts from l98). Am I correct here or is there something else going on? See pic for visual.
You know, I'm using stock L98 mounts and I never noticed if my motor was sitting crooked or not.
You know, I'm using stock L98 mounts and I never noticed if my motor was sitting crooked or not.
I'll have to check that out.
My LT1 has the Hooker 2210 LTs.
I have to ask. How well did the Hooker 2210 headers fit? I've been looking for headers and Don's Headers seem to be the only ones that fit without mods. Are they "D" ports? Thanks
I have to ask. How well did the Hooker 2210 headers fit? I've been looking for headers and Don's Headers seem to be the only ones that fit without mods. Are they "D" ports? Thanks
Oval Ports.
Mods? You must bend brake lines out of the way.
Traxxion has a thread about them that answers all of the questions.
Once you move the brake lines these things go in and out like butter. And there is a ton of room for plug changes.
I can't use a ratchet on all of my plugs, but a cut down plug socket and a 3/4" wrench to turn it are all I need. Can do plugs in about 30 minutes.
My 2210 require work to get in, but now if I think about it, if the pass side is lower because the motor tilted I would be hitting on a lot more stuff than if it was level. Which ticks me off because I worked hard to make those suckers fit (4 hours pass side, 1 drivers). Throw a level on the intake and tell me what u see. Mine clearly shows the motor is lower on pass side. Brake line move was easy and I also had to move knock sensor to the drivers side, which requires lengthening the wire. As for ports I like these because they are 1.75" which means they will swallow the d ports. 89 GTA did u have to die grind the gaskets on your headers before install? Mine were so small they plugged half the opening, so I put them on the header and used a die grinder to match them up, worked fine just thought it was weird.
My 2210 require work to get in, but now if I think about it, if the pass side is lower because the motor tilted I would be hitting on a lot more stuff than if it was level. Which ticks me off because I worked hard to make those suckers fit (4 hours pass side, 1 drivers). Throw a level on the intake and tell me what u see. Mine clearly shows the motor is lower on pass side. Brake line move was easy and I also had to move knock sensor to the drivers side, which requires lengthening the wire. As for ports I like these because they are 1.75" which means they will swallow the d ports. 89 GTA did u have to die grind the gaskets on your headers before install? Mine were so small they plugged half the opening, so I put them on the header and used a die grinder to match them up, worked fine just thought it was weird.
No, I just let the exhaust fire burn the edges away.
I did relocate my knock sensor as well, forgot about that.
As for the level thing? I won't be able to check for another few months. car is in storage.
Last edited by Thirdgen89GTA; 01-13-2016 at 12:32 PM.
I have to ask. How well did the Hooker 2210 headers fit? I've been looking for headers and Don's Headers seem to be the only ones that fit without mods. Are they "D" ports? Thanks
Strick1 did u check out that fbodytech link I shared? A really cool thing is the free tune creator. The site is capable of instantly creating a basic tune to help your your new mods. Atleast it will get you going and you can tweek from there. When snow is gone I will make some passes with stock tune and the free tune to see the differences and will share results.
The learning curve continues, never thought of that.
did you ever get some HP estimates, 1/4 mile times, with your new setup?
Its never been to the strip, not sure I'll ever get it there. Too afraid of grenading the 10-bolt. Feeling the power build is awesome though. Whole lot of nothin' below 3000rpm. But even though it doesn't feel like you are accelerating the nose subtly rises, right up until you let off the throttle at 7000, or upshift, then the nose of the car drops a solid 4-5 inches.
I don't know the peak numbers. I do know this from the airflow math. Peak torque is going to be in the 4900-5100rpm range. Peak power will be in the 6800-6900rpm range. An estimated guess puts it around 470-500hp at the crank. So probably in the 400-420whp range.
As for the learning curve? The idea came from when I had first gotten my original LT1. Some wasps had decided to build a nest into one of the exhaust ports.
Well I knocked the big pieces out with a screw driver, but there were some really stuck things in there. Since the valve closed fully we just decided to let Fire Cleanse the Earth. We bolted the headers up and kept on working on the car.
First time I fired that thing up I'm sure whatever remains of the nest, larva and other fallen soldiers was blown to kingdom come, and shot out the SLP 2 on the Left tops like a potato out of a spud gun.
If any larva were alive, they'd have felt like an extra in that Independence Day scene.
Last edited by Thirdgen89GTA; 01-13-2016 at 12:41 PM.
Been putting in lots of time cleaning up engine bay and harness especially. I got my ECM minted up in the old stock location. This worked well to use the ECM holder fro t he 95 and I drilled some holes and screwed it to a bar up inside the stock location. I then drilled a hole in the firewall, jut below the fan housing. This made it super easy to get my words to the ECM, without lengthening all of them. Currently I finishing up a few wore lengths to make it neat under the dash, a few were too long and a few were too short. Also reworded my reverse lock out as I was not comfortable with the brake switch mod that many were running. Instead I just ran power to a $2 switch from eBay that allows 12v only when it's pressed and held. I installed it by the fog light switch and tried to keep,it relatively discreet, very happy with this. The brake switch just had me concerned that at some point during a down shift from 6-5 while braking, it would slip into reverse, now I don't have to worry. Also got my egr delete kit Installed. Getting excited over all the melting snow around here!
I had to some wood blocking to the bracket to give it some strength when I screwed it to the bar inside the stock location.
The PCM has an output that you can use to control the solenoid for reversed lockout it only engages is below 5 mph. It's tunable inside the PCM with a table
Oh I tried it the factory way, u even tried to use the cags parameters to control it and use it plug but nothing works. I never understood why it wouldn't work but it doesn't matter because I have mechanical speedo so my tail shaft is going to be getting modified if the USD ever goes down to a reasonable amount.
Oh I tried it the factory way, u even tried to use the cags parameters to control it and use it plug but nothing works. I never understood why it wouldn't work but it doesn't matter because I have mechanical speedo so my tail shaft is going to be getting modified if the USD ever goes down to a reasonable amount.
Well, thats exactly why it doesn't work.
The PCM function for reverse lock-out entirely depends on the VSS Signal.
I know but, the vss was hooked up to the trans, so my thought was the ECM gets vss from trans then uses the data to operate speedo, cags, and reverse lockout. It almost seems to me that the systems depends on the Elec speedo for the info for the other 2 items.
Side note...you gotta drop the tuner cat and try eehack with tuner pro. If you haven't used eehack data log yet, you are missing out big time, and it's set up to tune with tuner pro which takes a bit of time to get used to from tuner cats but works well once u got it, plus eehack is safer way to upload tunes....my last tuner cat upload froze, At least it was during winter where I could let the car sit without too much pain.
I know but, the vss was hooked up to the trans, so my thought was the ECM gets vss from trans then uses the data to operate speedo, cags, and reverse lockout. It almost seems to me that the systems depends on the Elec speedo for the info for the other 2 items.
VSS goes to PCM, PCM outputs signal for the electric speedo.
Exactly the way I figured it worked (mine is also 95), but it worked in 95 the. After swap it magically quit working. Vss is good as my data log tells me, so I was surprised when I had to manually power up the solenoid. Oh well, works now on to the next thing.
Did this little mod tonight......love it! The mirror was from my 95 donor and is wired into the overhead center, so it works with doors and manually. Much better for ligniting inside. I always hated how dim it was inside the car when you get in.
Last edited by 87iroctheo; 04-03-2016 at 04:07 PM.
07-21-2015, 12:31 AM
