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LTX and LSXPutting LT1s, LS1s, and their variants into Third Gens is becoming more popular. This board is for those who are doing and have done the swaps so they can discuss all of their technical aspects including repairs, swap info, and performance upgrades.
Well putting this up here to see if anyone might have any interest in my engine swap. I have had the car for years now and the 2.8l 700r4 has seen better days. So decided to do a engine trans swap. I have had the car so long my wife nicknamed her Emma. Have a lot of other little mods to her but this by far will be the biggest project to date. So far the story is filled with Mr. Murphy sticking his nose in where it don't belong and even I have to laugh at the troubles he brought along. Attached is a picture of Emma and the donor.
Well I guess everyone is into the LSX swaps not a LT but I decided to go with a LT swap since I have liked those engines from way back. I wanted to put one in my second gen firebird long ago. I also was looking thru rose colored glasses and not seeing the troubles coming. I was looking at the motor in pic 1 seeing the motor in pic 2. Boy was I in for it.
#1 can look like #2 with a little elbow grease. Theres nothing wrong with LT1's, they're just a step under LSx engines. Seen some impressive things from the older engines
They're the easiest class of engine to swap because they are externally just like a classic SBC. The main hurdles left to solve are the harness, PCM and fuel system
I'm pro LT1 though I wouldn't stuff the choice down anyones throat. It'll be somework but it's not that bad. Easier and cheaper than any LSx transplant. 400ish hp is super simple. Only drawback is the opti and even those aren't as bad as reputations give them. At least as long as you have a GM supplied module. And if you really wanted it's pretty easy to swap to LS 24x ecm. Good luck, I'll be watching.
I'm pro LT1 though I wouldn't stuff the choice down anyones throat. It'll be somework but it's not that bad. Easier and cheaper than any LSx transplant. 400ish hp is super simple. Only drawback is the opti and even those aren't as bad as reputations give them. At least as long as you have a GM supplied module. And if you really wanted it's pretty easy to swap to LS 24x ecm. Good luck, I'll be watching.
AC is also a little more involved and clearances are tighter. A few have done it, there are pictures of what needs to be cut on the boards.
Thanks guys for the responses. The two motors shown are the same one, kind of a before and after of me messing with it. Playing around with a rattle can or two. Wait lets not get too far ahead of myself..... If you asked me I would say never buy a car off of Craigslist, unless you know the person or the car. Thou I have done it now 5 times, got 3 of them running and two as donors for this swap. I will let you know more about the second car later when it is relevant to the swap. I went with the formula since it was everything I needed to get the swap done. Lets see wiring ecu fuel pump rear end engine trans drive shaft cooling system accessories. I probably left something out, but for now that is what I plan on using. I will do a dash swap later, just don't like the one we ended up with in our third gens. As you can see I am a little long winded, sorry. I bought the formula back in March and set to pulling the engine towards the end of the month. The second pic is me paying homage to the Cars movies. Just found it funny....
So with the motor out and up on the stand, I had to step back from it and gather in just how huge to motor is. I have been doing motors for awhile but lately a 2.8l, 2.7l yes forgive me had to do someone a favor, a 4.3l and a 3.8l. this thing was so much more than those.
So tearing it down to do a refresh to it or a rebuild which ever it needs. I was optimistic that it was going to be a breeze. That was a mistake....Mr. Murphy stuck his nose in. The drivers side rear plug was the size of a old Ford plug, shown in the pics. So got me thinking ...ok helicoil it will be the answer. Ok one set back but simple ....right?
Yes sir Mr. Pocket it looked bad. I checked around at the local machine shops and they said it was to large to fix. Now they could weld a plug into it and redrill and tap a spark plug hole, like they do for some drag racing heads, but it would run me around $200 for the job. I got to thinking wait a minute I saw some LT1 parts on good ole Craigslist, let me check again. Sure enough a set of aluminum heads for LT1 in NC for $100. Ok contact my friend down there see if he came run over from Durham to pick them up. Yep few calls later and a short trip one set of heads on the way to me in VA.
Mean while a little more tear down and I could tell the motor was poorly maintained, but I still had hopes for it. Until I got to the cam shaft....Darn you Mr. Murphy....
Pics head showing burnt oil look
Timing chain loose as a goose
oil pan banged up
Cam shaft
R13_Braz sorry someone else has had problems like this, thou I did think it was just my luck.
Still thinking I got this with the build just need to find a camshaft. Now I need to stop and say we all don't have a lot of money to do this stuff, I am one to say like the song goes if the devil dances in empty pockets he would have a big ole party in mine. I wanted to just do a stock engine because it would be three times the horsepower and maybe even 10mpg better than what I was getting at the time. So I set out to find a stock camshaft for the motor. I searched high and low for two months and nothing in my price range. So I procrastinated, it was probably the first good thing I did.
I did get to deburring the block, removing some of the casting flash.
Mean while I am still daily driving the car and as the pic shows, rule number what ever it is....if it squeals on Sunday don't wait till Wednesday to check it. Don't know how the belt stayed on. While fixing this found the water pump needed replacing. Darn it Mr. Murphy I don't need to be spending money on this engine I need it for the other.....
Mean while did get around to painting the engine for the first time....to be continued....
Murphy and I have a love/hate relationship... He loves me, and I hate him. lol
Honestly, even with the issues I've come across, I've learned things so it's not a complete waste. I don't like it, but at the same time I'm not mad about it. As long as you move forward even a little, it's not entirely a bad thing.
Completely forgot about this...so you will get a couple updates today...
Before I painted it I was checking the cam bearings and crank bearings, found that both where needing to be replaced. Including the crank itself, the cost to get it reground here in central va was more than a crank kit with bearings. Ok so while wait on that to show up I looked over the cylinders and they where fine still some cross hatching showing. No need to pull the pistons. When i got to the cam bearings they where pretty worn so new cam new bearings right. Well once the cam bearings where out I could see that the oil passages where full of burnt gunk. Well that wont work...So I had to pull the new crank back out send it off to the machine shop for a cleaning honing and cam bearing install. Maybe not in that order. BUT while pulling the pistons found number three piston top ring broken...No signs of wearing the cylinder so Mr. Murphy good luck...?
So at this point I need to figure out a way to post the pics since my phone changed at this time and it takes hd pics and will not load here because of size. Will work that out before the next chapter in this saga..
Ok well helps if you go and read how to post pictures. So lets see how it goes....
While waiting for the block to get back I took the time finally to look over the set of heads from NC. Right away I noticed they didn't look too used. Had gasket material on the head side from being pulled off a motor but not a lot of run time was put on them. Most of the ports where clean, no carbon built up. I was pulling the valves to put new seals in and noticed a valve job had been done recently. Still something was off couldn't put my finger on it but they were not exactly like the others. Took some time off from the project but still in the back of my mind I was thinking about those heads. Then it dawned on me that block side surface looked different, the machine marks where not "stock". Yep sure enough after measuring them .020 thousands had been taken off.
At this point I had a crisis on my hands I cant put this motor together with just a stock cam. I mean who would not go ahead and hot rod this motor knowing the compression is up a little bit. So the devil danced in my pockets...I should never be left alone with a computer and the paypal password...ebay here I come.
Found a LT4 hot cam right in my price range, but it has some lift to it. Ok lurk around here TGO and find out that to do this a few other parts are needed. So back to ebay...found a new set of stock LT4 springs darn cheap, but could not find out if they fit the LT1 retainers. Looked high and low but that query didn't turn up a answer. So back to ebay and yep LT4 retainers dirt cheap. Using the locks already on the valves my valve train is set. Well no wait new cam new lifters, back to ebay and a quick paypal password later and a new set of high performance lifters...ok done...no wait stiffer springs better lifters bigger cam I need push rods. Well the heads are milled so the pushrods need to be shorter. Set a head on the newly returned block measured the rod length and back to ebay.... Found a set of hardened 3/8 rods the correct length. bing bam done......Went down that rabbit hole all the way...
Smoothing out the ports of the heads
So at this point I am getting excited in the build the engine is back and I am running around picking up parts and gaskets to put it back together. The cleaning and prep work is one of the more enjoyable things for me. While running around thou Mr. Murphy had something to say. Now I am still driving Emma around to get this stuff and she started to run hot. Now I have done what some may have done here. I put a switch in the dash to turn on the relay for the cooling fan. On ignition on the fan comes on. Can turn it off for a few mins to get heat in the car sooner in the winter. Got home turn engine off and then back to run and no fan. So got to looking and I recognized the fan motor, yea got two of those at the shop. Come to the shop pulled one out of the donor fan assembly and put it in emma, fan back to working. Driving her home that evening she got to making a noise and seemed to be struggling to go. By the time I got home I had a clunking in the rear. Jack her up and check the universals and they are loose as a goose. No it could not stop there the pinion bearing seemed shot also, the rear had a lot of slop in it. Dang it could you just wait till I got all the new stuff ready? Oh well she has given me miles of enjoyment and I always said if she let me down out on the road, she would not ever get a harsh word from me, Plus it probably was my fault anyway, or her awesome amount of horsepower she has...yea I will stick with that story.
So most of you have done or seen motor rebuilds in the past so will not try to bore you with that. I will just hit some highlights for you.
So when I got the motor back was surprised that the first paint job was still some what there. I also noticed that the oil galley holes that I had tapped in the front for plugs had a set already installed, Thanks Machine shop.
I cleaned and buffed the pistons put them back in with new rings. New cam bearinsg installed at machine shop. Lets see new cam, lifters, timing chain set, pushrods, of course gaskets. Things where coming together really nicely. I did run into one funny thing. All this new valve train got to thinking, and the paypal new password, what about rockers. The long and the short of it 1.5 3/8 roller rockers where on back order and didn't know when they would come in. So it was even cheaper to go with 7/16 studs and 1.5 7/16 roller rockers......
Now I could button it up...but before that I wanted to prime the system a little....One thing to do before you do that...Put the darn oil filter on
Idiot mechanic known him all my life and still baffles me at times....
So at this time I am putting the engine in the car so it is a exciting time for me. That is why no updates for the last couple of days.
Back to where I was.....Doing the wiring for this thing I could not roll around on the floor like some of you guys do. I have to give you credit for that. I am just to old and the knees will not take it. So with the engine on the stand I did this to the ecu to make it easier.
As you can see it was still a mess to deal with.
Next update will be all about me trying to get a rear end for the car....the jury is still out on this one......
[QUOTE]Doing the wiring for this thing I could not roll around on the floor like some of you guys do. I have to give you credit for that. I am just to old and the knees will not take it. So with the engine on the stand I did this to the ecu to make it easier.
You forgot the need for a WELL lit shop and at least two different powers of reading glasses to see what we are doing while cutting, soldering, and crimping and reading all the pin-out spreadsheets and wiring diagrams. If you were born before the '60s as I was you already understand. I definitely can identify with what continually squatting to standing can feel like.
I hear ya. I have to switch over to my regular glasses beyond 4 feet for a stigmatism. With the old age setting in you tend to find the reading glasses sitting on top of your head only after spending a half hour looking for them.
Now I move onto the rear end....I was going to take the LSD out of the fourth gen and transplant it into and spare read end that I had. I know I needed to get new axles for the switch to 28 spline over the 26. So I tore into the rear to check things out and Mr. Murphy spoke again. The spider gear on the drivers side had started to gaul up and was cracked. Ok well this will not work. The rear in the car is shot already, so what to do. I cleaned up the left over rear and put all the positive slip stuff back in it. Went to roll it out the shop and lock roll one foot lock? Back up on the horses and lets see what is wrong well here it is......
Well that wont work either......
So before all this was to come the friend in North Carolina had gone on good ole Craigslist and found a 87 IROC for $500. We went in on halves for the car so we both could use some parts off of it. Well it suppose to have a 3.55 posi in it. At this point I know it rolls but have not been able to get under there and check it. I hope to do that in the next few days.
On another note the IROC has close to perfect wheels on it I hope to use in the future. It also has the over head console we will probably sell off because neither of us will use it. I am eyeing the canister to fit in mine because of the purge valve will work better than my v6 one. I will also probably use the front grill after a mod to it, mine is busted. Their are a lot of other bits and pieces that we will pull to use. So we will get a lot of used out of the car.
Next update will be the trans story....yea another bite in the b..........
I know that the norm is to put a T56 in these cars right now but for simplicity and a old man I planned on using the 4L60E in my car. When I got the donor it didn't want to pull itself so I dropped the pan to see if I could see anything wrong with it. First off not too much clutch particles was in the bottom but it was out of fluid, so a new filter gasket and fill it up and she moved. Got it into the shop pulled it out sit it aside for other things. When I got around to it I was just going to put seals in it but looked around the good ole internet to see if I could find a way to tell quickly if something was wrong with the trans before I just sealed it back up. I found a gem of a web site transmissionbench.com....I was able to diagnose the trans with a burnt out 3/4 clutch pack and following his videos rebuild the trans with absolutely no problems. He is a little slow in describing what to do right up until you are trying to follow him in putting it back together. Its pause run over do this run back play do that pause run over.....you get the idea. The only thing I wish I had done is get the rebuild kit from him. I have to say it is nice to be able to tackle something I knew nothing about.
So I got you guys up to the point of putting everything sorta together.
Tired old v6 So pulled it out and have already had offers on it for a S10 build.
Got it dressed up a bit to put the new one in.
Now I have to say she will never be a show car because a lot of other things are never going to get to that point, but I do hope it works out to my advantage. How you might ask? Well I will call it street camo. Hopefully this will make some of the other people think, He's not got anything for me and my *insert bad car info here*. I hope from there she will shine.
This is current on the car. I am looking forward to taking on the electrical this week.
Whew wiring wow more to it than thought. Making head way thou....
Looks kinda disorganized but I know what's what. Got the dash out and back in pretty much so. Got a few more bolts to put in it but all is looking up right now. I even got this done except for some filler panels.....
Hope fully beginning of next week get fuel lines done and start on exhaust, then maybe she will roar to life.
The engine color looks good with that car. I hope to see video of it run. I personally don't like the fourth gen interiors( they feel bland like I could've gotten them from a Honda) BUT the cluster does look to fit kinda proper in the 3rd gen. Cool thinking.
I understand the dislike of the forth gen interior, I was just on the fence for awhile about what to do for gauges. I had the common problem of the VSS. What to do for that? I had so many options to choose from, I even have access to a Dakota Digital gauge cluster to put in the car. In the end I decided to put the forth gen in so I would have some of the other features like low oil level, low coolant level and a tach for a v8. I also thought it would be my own little funny if I had a "sport" switch that turned on the traction control INOP and Abs INOP lights in the dash. I think it would freak the riders out in the car, of course it has neither of those systems. My buddy says make the traction control light come on under full throttle. Both are easy enough to do.
The engine paint and the engine bay are painted to match the car color, I just didn't clear it to give it a satin finish. I hope to fire it this week, might even do it before I put exhaust on it. LOL
Been working away on the car and it seems to never end on the to do list. The wiring got me slowed up but not for confusion just it was so much to do. I also worked a few days getting the gauges in with the trim plates around it. I am not sheet metal mechanic so they came out ok, they will do for now..
I will trade out the chrome screws once I find some black ones, it is the only ones Lowes had at the time.
So working hard on getting it finished up.....Got the rear out from the donor IROC and didn't notice it was a 9 bolt till I got it ready to go in. It has 3.27 gears but is a posi. So it will not be too off from the stock 3.24 the formula had. Hooked up the fuel lines backwards and blew out my fuel regulator, another guy has problems with his it might be that. It starts and runs for a few sec then dies, but sounds wicked. I hope to put a video up of it running soon and some finial pics.
Well guys to finish this up .....
Got it running by patching in the BCM. A couple power wires an ground then splice in the key and she starts and runs.
What a mess in the pass side.
Well I have put about a 100 miles on the car and then needed to reset the valve lash. Thought it was blowing up the other morning but it was the ac plug loose and bouncing around off the belt. Always the little things...
She runs great little rich at idle, still have not got it reprogrammed yet. I am trying to get use to all the new power, got to remember she was a 2.8l. This one has more than I have driven in quite awhile, and the 215's on the back are struggling to get the power down. I have a set of 245's going on soon that might do the trick. I will be doing my best to baby it since I believe in a break in period. After that hopefully I have "played" with it enough to do a bit of hammering on it. I don't know if it will ever make it to a drag strip but might just use a app to "see" where it is at. As you know I have no idea the hp or torque figures, I was just going for what I get no numbers in particular.
Very nice build. I like how you showed how the LT1 is a drop in motor. Have fun with it because V-8's have wonderful power (which you know by now haha )
Are you going to leave the bcm in there permanently? and are you going to connect it completely?
I ask because I have one fully integrated and I love it. It really woke up the power door locks too.
Thanks guys for the comments. Like the support you get here on TGO.
The key is the only resistor I could get my hands on, the radio shacks have closed up around here. So once again I made do with what I had. I have thought about actually putting the key lock from the other car in the dash somewhere as a anti theft. It would only require you to insert a key to get the car to run, the one in the column would still start the car.
Yea that would require me to keep the bcm in the car. I do already have a alarm in the car with a power window module hooked to it. Once you lock the car it rolls the windows up automatically for you. At unlock you can roll the windows down. I don't know how the bcm would effect all of that so I will have to look into it. I have found out the low coolant level light runs thru the bcm and I do want that to work, nice feature, so a lot of things to look into. I also have to figure out the cruse control for the car, so as I work out the bugs I will try and figure out this stuff. I am currently working on a wiring diagram for the car to put in my build book, with the rest of the part numbers and such so I can go back and find out exactly what I put in it.
Ah yes the power.....we have a few on ramps around here that don't have acceleration lanes. So when merging into traffic you have to be on the power and get going quickly. Only problem is with this car if you give it too much gas it just sits there spinning the rear tires. Been there done that.....had to clean out the shorts....
As far as the bcm goes.... You would be able to eliminate the convenience center under the dash (by this I mean the chime box) also I know that with aftermarket alarms - a lot are based on ground side switching for the door locks and because our cars are hot side switching you need relays to convert. So the bcm is ground side switching and it would eliminate those relays. That's really about it. As far as the alarm part of it - that can be disabled.
I dunno, I kinda like the bcm but to each his own haha.
As far as the car goes... Is it fully operable or are you still doing stuff to it?
I may have to keep the bcm just don't know. The major problem I am running to is here in central va there is no one who can reprogram my odb2 ecu. I have checked all around and it is not something anyone does. So with that I am currently looking into going with a megasquirt setup. She is running so rich that I believe it is keeping my rings from seating. She blows blue smoke every time I get on her. I have about 300 miles on her now, getting use to the newly made power. I am driving her daily which at this point is a trick since we are going thru our normal monsoon season of fall. The rear is bouncing and struggling to get the power down. She steps out on every turn, burn outs are a normal happening at stop lights. I know lighten up off the gas, well that aint no fun....lol
Hi I'm currently trying to sap an lt1 in my 1990 Camaro and was wandering how I would clear the k memeber with the AC I know I have to notch it but I'm confused about the motor mounts do I need different ones because there to big to move back
Hi I'm currently trying to swap an lt1 in my 1990 Camaro and was wandering how I would clear the k memeber with the AC I know I have to notch it but I'm confused about the motor mounts do I need different ones because there to big to move back if you have a solution give me a call at 859-797-6850 or email me at stewartperformanceson@yahoo.com thank you!
So thought I would update this thread since this is my best friend's car. We've almost gotten the Camaro so that it's running daily. We've had to fight pretty much everything ever step of the way. I built rdmotors a Megasquirt unit. I started off with Megasquirt II but realized Megasquirt III would be WAY easier for the Optispark.
Since he was running the 4l60e transmission decided to get the Megasquirt GPIO board to be a transmission controller, built it, sent it to him, and discovered the Megasquirt GPIO Transmission Controller can ONLY talk to the Megasquirt II, it can not talk to Megasquirt III and it's NOT designed to be a standalone TCU (Transmission Control Unit). Now I know Megasquirt you can get the Microsquirt and you can set it up to be a TCU but we didn't try that, after wasting money on the Megasquirt II and GPIO for this engine setup, we found a used TCI 377000 Grey Box unit on eBay and installed that. I just want to say that TCI is AMAZING! We called them because we needed a wiring diagram which we were worried about getting, and they emailed use several within minutes! Great company!
Anyway so currently Emma is running on MS3 and TCI TCU unit, still having some minor problems we are trying to resolve but rdmotors Camaro is wicked fast. Honestly we've had some long talks when he comes to visit, he wanted to have about 300hp out of his LT1 and I swear with the LT4 cam, heads, all the lifts, roller rockers and all the other modifications he's done, I believe he did a port and polish on the heads as well, I think his motor is well over 400hp and close to 425hp at the wheels. With the posi rear end he has, it lights up the rear end with ease!
Thought I would share this as well. This was taken at my place, rdmotors got into the throttle about 50% for this quick little take off. The engine he built has gobs of power which we're still trying to figure out how to tune and control
07-14-2015, 10:14 AM
stuff back in it. Went to roll it out the shop and lock roll one foot lock? Back up on the horses and lets see what is wrong well here it is......
