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LTX and LSXPutting LT1s, LS1s, and their variants into Third Gens is becoming more popular. This board is for those who are doing and have done the swaps so they can discuss all of their technical aspects including repairs, swap info, and performance upgrades.
Its been far to long since I put any love into my camaro. Ive decided to go with a 5.3 turbo build. I do not know any where near enough to do this without TGOs help. I have bought a used 5.3 with 120,000 miles on it pulled from a 2001 silverado. I have the full wire harness, computer and everything original to the truck.
As of now i want to go with a 76mm turbo, a tick performance turbo stage 3 cam, and some larger injectors. Not sure if i should or need to change anything else on the engine.
I know i will need to change the T5. Would a T56 hold up to this? Or should I go another way? I want a 6speed that is all I know.
Rear end? i have a limited slip out of a 2000 model Z28. I want to go back to the narrower rear end but something that will hold up. 8.8?
This build will take time as money flows in. Hopefully no more than a year but I will do my best to document it. Thanks for all of your help.
Thanks for the info. Love your build. took a while to get through it all. ha ha. Very inspiring.
I believe i will order the umi k-member, ready for a ls swap. Any thoughts on that?
UMI makes nice products. I will probably end up with the same one since it's a bit beefier than others. Direction on my car has changed a few times. I'm going t56 and want to keep it more street/corner friendly. Also debating twin turbo soon.
Make sure u swap those valve springs and check clearances after the cam install. Also the LS7 lifters don't like aggressive cams and dual springs. Better off looking for a higher end lifter like a morel.
Can I ask why do the cam? Slap blue $60 LS6 springs in the stock motor and just turn up the boost. Cams are nice but require a lot of other Mods to make it live and work correctly. Turbos are easy, when u want more power just crank the boost up.
Well I was looking around at cams and wanted to install one that was made for boost. When i read the tick cam was built for the size (76mm) turbo i wanted to go with i figured it was a good idea. I truly do not know much about turbos or building a motor capable of handling a turbo for longer life. This car will not be driven daily but I want it to be dependable. I plan on eventually taking it on tours or trips with the wife. Thank you customblackbird for your help and wisdom.
1.) just looked up the specs 233/237 .63X/.61x 116+5 thats going to be a bit lopey in the 5.3. The duration isn't that bad per say but the lift is MASSIVE! Your going to need springs that can handle .650 lift which I believe it puts you in dual spring territory and your going to need to just verify PVC.
2.) I wouldn't run LS7 lifters with that cam. So your going to have to look for a better lifter You might have to step it up to a $400+ morel or equivalent. While I dont think that cam has super aggressive lobes, its the lift and spring rates your going to have to run I would be leary about. Another $200 for lifters is cheap compared to a motor rebuild.
3.) Dual springs to accommodate those lift numbers for sure. While I'm sure their is a PAC spring in behive style that could prob handle the lift that cam is designed for 2500-7000rpms... and It might be a litle higher in a smaller 5.3. Dual springs means more money, more stress on the lifter and rocker. I would check with TICK and see what they recommend on spring rates etc. Dual springs and large retainers means more valve train weight as well (which I feel like is going backwards with LS motors that come with lightweight springs/retainers already).
4.) Higher spring rates, more aggressive cam what are you going to go about rockers? Stockers are strong enough and you could run them as long as the bearings stay together. Otherwise truninon upgrades (i wouldnt go with bearing style due to excelerated wear) I personally got straub bushing upgrade and Going to retrofit my some replacement rockers I got for my 5.3. Been hearing great things about it and at $150ish they can increase the reliability of your stock rockers for cheap.
5.) Pushrods? I wouldnt run stock or moly 5/16" with much higher than stockish (LS6 spring) rates. So be prepared to spend more money of larger pushrods.
This is just changing the cam your going to have to replace or upgrade a bunch more. Personally these 5.3 motors love boost, Im pushing almost 12psi through mine with nothing but LS6 valve springs and figure im in the 500-550hp range. Its a blast on the street but idles and drives like a stock 5.3 motor. You could swap a larger OE cam like a LS6 or Lq9 or if you want to change out the front cover an LS9 cam. I picked up a used LQ9 cam for $75 which will let a stock 5.3 rev to 6000-6500 and produce 40+ hp/tq at 5500+ over the stock 5.3 cam. You can run the OE springs but I recommend LS6 blue springs at $60 you can't beat them. You can also run the LS6 cam 02-04 years for more duration/lift. All the OE cams can run LS6 springs, stock ish pushrods, LS7 lifters etc.
LQ9 cam should run with no tuning and run well, of course custom tuning is aways preferred.
I think what most people don't realize is that boost is very deceiving. While you think a $400 cam and large heads (just saying) would be great for power increases you sacrifice drivability etc for the power gains when all you needed to do is crank up the boost to make the same power increases. Superchargers this is more difficult as you have to pulley down and worry about RPMS but with a turbo its just changing a wastegate spring and tuning. So if you think you can gain 60rwhp with a cam swap, I would say just crank up the boost 2psi and get the same results.
Dont overthink a boosted setup.Heads/cam are alot less important than you think. Hence why everyone can make 500-800hp on a stock 5.3 with just boost. Try to do that NA and you'll never come close. If your going to do a cam and are set on it get a custom cam made. They are like $399 from Cam motion. right now I'm debating just running the Lq9 cam I have or spending $400 on a custom cam that will make more power of course. But I'm maxed out on my supercharger so I can't increase boost anymore... not a problem with a turbo! ugh lol.
Well I wanted to go with a cam built for turbo because I thought it would run better. It wasnt about the 60 extra hp. I would like a good sounding cam and do not mind getting a tune but if all of that extra stuff comes into play then Id rather go as you have stated with minor change.
So LS6 blue springs, LS7 lifters, and LQ9 cam and all else leave alone? Again thank you for taking the time to help me and answer my questions.
Its up to you. Depends if you want to get the Max out of the system. Custom cam would be the best option. They can design something for your specific application and that give you better driveability, more power and still use stock parts. Custom just means more money. But you could use a $400 custom cam, and $65 LS6 springs if they say it will work. IF the OE valve train is fine you could leave it alone. Most people see it as you pulling it apart why not just upgrade/replace. So a Cam swap turns into valve train etc.
You could pull the timing cover, swap a cam without replacing anything or pulling the heads. Depends on how comfortable you are with running the OE high mileage stiff and how it ran before. Cam swaps provide the largest HP improvements on LS motors as the heads stock already flow so well. But boost changes everything.
You need to tell us what you want. HP wise thats the easiest way to determine what you need. Then its how you plan to drive the car, what gas is available, tuning etc.
The way it is now your stock 5.3 will idle at 550rpms smooth (while pulling 20" vacuum), have great tq and hp up to 4400ish and be all done by 5200ish even with boost. Mines all done by 5300 but its fun as hell from 2500-4800. You could swap a low lift custom cam without even pulling the heads for $400, swap the OE springs for LS6 springs and gain 100hp over your stock boosted HP. At 10psi a stock 5.3 should make 500hp at the crank or about around their. So you could make 600hp with prob 8psi at a higher RPM with a custom cam. I should clarify higher end springs aren't crazy expensive if you just want added lift without aggressive lobes. PAC 1218 are like $130-160 and are good for about .600 lift, LS6 are good for about .550/.560, I got howards good for .600" and only cost about $120 and they just swap in. Springs need to match the cam (duration and lift). Its when you go to doubles that it gets more expensive and harder on parts.
If the motor is running and running good, no valvetrain noise or burning oil etc I would leave the heads on. Do a cam if your really set on it and want it to sound "meaner" and gain some more power. Otherwise you can make the same power by cranking up the boost. Which is easier but harder on things like you need higher octane gas/water/meth injection to get the octane. A good FMIC or way to get IAT temps down etc and if you run enough boost its going to be keeping the heads down.
Last edited by customblackbird; 08-29-2016 at 11:31 AM.
$400 isn't to bad. I just do not want to have to tear into the engine for a good while once it is in and everything is in its place.
What I am wanting is a enough horse power to hang with the stock big dogs ha ha. Most newer muscle cars are pushing around 500hp. So I'd like to be above that. I know there are exceptions like the hellcat but that is OK. Somewhere around 600hp would be nice. I will probably never run it on a track as it will mostly be a weekend or trips with the wife to a car show. I would like it to run down the hi way and in town with no problem. I do like a aggressive or lope in the sound. But as you have stated I do not want to have to change everything in the engine.
Is there a company or a known person you would recommend in building such a cam.?
Their are a bunch of custom cam companies. Ive heard nothing but great things from Cam motion and they even spec'd me a cam free of charge. Some places will charge you $20-50 for a custom cam card that you fill out.
Its not just $400 for the cam. Then you have all the gaskets Your going to pull the rockers if your doing just a cam swap, in which case you take your chances with the stock rockers putting them back on or retrofitting them. Most people will do lifters with a cam, why use 120k lifters on a $400 cam... is usually how it goes. Not to mention that most upgrade the cam enough to warrant spring and pushrod/lifter upgrades.
600hp is very easy with the stock motor and boost. 15psi should get you there no problem. Swap your springs out for LS6 and call it a day. It will cruise on the highway smooth as silk and knock down decent MPG. Get on it and boost builds and then your gone, out of boost it has great street manners.
Idk what cars your talking about lol but most production cars aren't close to 500hp lol. Unless your talking, Z06, hellcat, GTR. Mopar stuff like SRT8 are only in the high 300-low 400s along with the mustangs at like 435hp for the coyote. You gotta remember tho that all these cars besides the vette are 4000lbs + so you got weight on your side.
Your mentality of doing it once and not opening it up again would mean replacing everything lol. So basically do a rebuild (main/rod bearings, arp rod bolts if you want) referbished heads with gasket match/port work, springs, retrofitted rockers, new lifters, moly pushrods and cam. Then choose the intake of your choice.
My issue is that most people who build motors dont do as good of a job as GM does in at the factory pumping these things out. So taking it apart could lead to failures.
I will look into cam motion. I don't mind spending the extra money. Sure it will slow down the build but if it takes me a extra month or two to save up and spend it on new lifters, gaskets, springs and what not then the extra time will be worth it. I'm in no rush at pushing this car out of the garage and onto the road.
The motor seems strong and checks out to be OK. The guy bought the truck new in 01 and always kept vavoline in it. He handed the truck down to his son who wrecked it at 120,000 miles on it. I definitely do not want to replace everything but if some parts are more prone to wear out than other I'd rather go ahead and do it while it is out of the car.
As far as intake I believe I will stick with the truck intake and try my luck at fabricating the hood. I have a spare hood to work with.
Most people that do a 5.3 build is bc you dont have to touch them and just throw lots of boost and make huge numbers no one ever really spends money on them. Hence why you can get long blocks for $350.
This is the way I see it. If your going to replace the lifters then the heads are coming off. Which means you need to swap to LS2 trays etc. So you might as well get the heads freshened up, surface cleaned/decked, light port, maybe upgrade the tiny 1.9" valve to a LS1 2.0", new seals, springs etc. Now since your yanking the heads you might as well tear the bottom apart, new bearings, and upgrades you want to make. New piston rings gapped for boost, get a hone done on the cylinder walls. Lol you basically doing a full rebuild with the addition of a cam and light head mods. Now you have machine work added to the cost etc.
Most people (what I also did) was get a running high mileage 5.3 for cheap and throw boost at it for cheap power... and if it blows then you just get a new high mileage motor and throw it in. Most will only put money into 5.7/6.0s as they also have a higher inital cost. You would make more Hp and tq easier with a 6.0 vs a 5.3 and both take boost like champs. The difference is that the 6.0 has a 30-60hp difference starting out and more tq.
No real reason to dump money into a 5.3. Throw it in the car and crank it up to 15psi and hold on. And if you really need more than 600hp either crank it up more or build a 6.0 on the side. The nice thing is that the 4.8/5.3/5.7/6.0 are all the same size so everything you build for the 5.3 will bolt right up to the 6.0. With that being said a 5.3 with 120k is not alot by anymeans... 150k on mine. Some run them with 200k on them. Not one part wears on them quicker than the other besides valve springs. Rockers, lifters, cams etc are all good till they just FAIL. Nothing you can do or prevent it so unless you got a mean lifter tick, bled down lifter, noisey rocker then you could be fine running it. It could fail tmrw or 50k from now... no way to tell.
My 5.3 with the stock truck intake fits under a stock firebird power bulge hood. with just running a small case alt with stock accessories. The Camaro I thought has a taller fender line in which case you should be better off. You wont be able to run the stock plastic engine cover.
I dont think you will be dissapointed with a stock 5.3 and 15lbs... and promise it will scare the cr@p out of you lol. You basically want what I wanted. refined nice sounding motor with power, easy to cruise in, reliable and when you get on it goes like a bat outa hell. I sometimes wish I would have went turbo only due to the flexibility of boost and how easy it is to make power. But then I think about the oil draining, underhood heat and how abrupt the power comes on and then exhaust plumbing etc. SC was a higher inital cost (only 3k) and the rest is gravy, exhaust was easy, boost is linear and predicable but your limited in power and boost.
Well looks like I will leave the cam alone ha ha. I see what your saying. Spend my money on the comfort of the ride ha ha. Well thank you for all of the information. I'm sure it will be more than enough. Heck anything will be more fun than the stock 305 that was in it.
Just get the small 216/220 TrickFlow cam and a set of PAC 1218s. Less than $400 total, uses stock retainers and pushrods, excellent driveability with a slight lope, and it will make ~100HP more than the common LS6 cam with similar boost.
Was looking at that cam as well. Its like $287 on summit. Its a decent cam for the price. I wish it had a 116 overlap. i was told by Cam motion that I'd be leaving some driveability and power on the table vs going with the custom cam. and when its like $120 more or something designed for your setup its hard to argue that.
You could run that. swap the lifters, trays and hardware (gotta pull the head) and retrofit the rockers if ya want. Then you need head gaskets, head bolts (TTY, ARP or studs) etc
No. Ha ha the more I read and everything you have stated has pretty much set me with changing the springs and leaving the rest alone. Everything on the motor seems good and strong and I won't push a lot of boost often so everything should be OK as you stated. Also it won't be driven often.
Nice. I actually run their 1st design front tubular Aarms and they are very nice. Those look much beeifer. Kmember is good too but you might want to verify LS1 Fbody oil pan clearance with the main hoop. I know i hits the stock Kmember and the double hoop design doesn't save you that much at the rear (where the pan would interfere).
I'm actually looking at getting poly rod end replacements to help with the noise of the rear suspension. $107 just for bushings lol... crap.
Thank you for the heads up.
Before I put this back on the road I will redo the rear as well. I have a fourth gen rear and want to go back to the original width. Not sure what I will go with as of yet. Trying to stay focused up front. $107 seems a little steep. But if it takes any slop out I'm sure it will feel worth it.
I would keep the 4th gen rear. Will allow you to run 4th gen wheels/tire combos with no adapters. This means alot more wheel options.
I have no slop which is why I need to change it up.I run UMI double rod end LCAs, PHB and custom short tq arm... lots of money lol. The rod ends are great as they allow a smooth pivoting (no binding) and no movement (solid feel). But that also means they transmit every noise through the car thats on the road lol. so it gets alittle annoying and the roads are not the best in NJ lol. The poly replacements would transmit less noise but still keep some of the solid feel compared to rubber bushings. Only negative is squeak (if they aren't lubed constantly) and they can "snap back" when the suspension is loaded and then unloaded quickly. Everything is a compromise! The bushings are $35 each, 3 bushing to replace 1 bearing on each piece. could possibly lessen the road noise but they seem expensive. On a smooth surface the rod ends feel and ride beautiful. bumps, dips and gravel sounds horrendous.
I have the Zr1's pictured above but I have to run 2" spacers up front and I'd rather not. I found the wheels I want but I can not find them again ha ha. I wrote it down several months ago and lost the paper.
I was looking at the rear options on umi performance page and noticed a big jump in price for the double. If you like them that much I may have to order some.
You could prob run less spacer up front. I run 1.25" spacers up front with my 4th gen style C6 Z06 18x9.5". But I have BAER front brakes which push it out 5/16". If your worried about spacer strength done be... they are plenty strong. My BAER Hubs are aluminum and thinner than the spacers are and thats what the wheels bolt to lol.
You could prob run less spacer up front. I run 1.25" spacers up front with my 4th gen style C6 Z06 18x9.5". But I have BAER front brakes which push it out 5/16". If your worried about spacer strength done be... they are plenty strong. My BAER Hubs are aluminum and thinner than the spacers are and thats what the wheels bolt to lol.
I think you may be forgetting that when you run 17s up front you need more of a spacer than when you run 18s up front. The strut being at an angle demands it.
Just ordered this kit online with the ls motor mounts. They have it at 10% off so that saves me a little over $100 or covers sales tax.
You won't be disappointed in the UMI K member. You can jack it up from under the K member still as long as you put some wood between the jack and member. Only installation advice I would give are that UMI doesn't give much play on the bolt holes that go into the frame rails. You may need to enlarge them by 1/64" or 1/32". I think I had to do that for one hole.
The 4th gen rear is going to break with a boosted 5.3, especially if you do or already have a numerically high gear ratio like 3.73 and up. Start researching the rearend route you want to go. I think Customblackbird and I are both fans of the 8.8 Frankenstein swap.
I think you may be forgetting that when you run 17s up front you need more of a spacer than when you run 18s up front. The strut being at an angle demands it.
Sure but their are like 5 other things that affect it just as much.
1. Aftermarket brake setups
2. Wheel offset
3. Back spacing
4. Tire size
5. Suspension components like strut design (OE, coil over, ground control fabbed struts are different) and I would factor in spacer thickness as well.
18s push the rim lip father out 1/2" only... Not a huge difference with the angle of a strut. Biggest affect is on tie rod placement and backspacing/offset... The 18" proves more clearance pushing the rim outside the tie rod.
Heck 17" 18" either I'll be happy with.
8.8 Frankenstein? Is that a Ford rear end? I know I need to get the 3:42 gears out and go lower. T56 will already give me a whole extra gear and this will be a strictly street car. No plans for it to see a strip.
So twins have my curiosity. One main reason Air conditioning. Humid south Texas and no a/c isn't fun. With twins I should be able to run smaller pipes. Yes it may cost more which will push me further down the line to being done but I want it right the first time.
So question is what set of twins for a quick spool on a t56? North of 500rwhp
Heck 17" 18" either I'll be happy with.
8.8 Frankenstein? Is that a Ford rear end? I know I need to get the 3:42 gears out and go lower. T56 will already give me a whole extra gear and this will be a strictly street car. No plans for it to see a strip.
So twins have my curiosity. One main reason Air conditioning. Humid south Texas and no a/c isn't fun. With twins I should be able to run smaller pipes. Yes it may cost more which will push me further down the line to being done but I want it right the first time.
So question is what set of twins for a quick spool on a t56? North of 500rwhp
How much it will cost will be quite variable. What brand of turbos do you want? Can you weld? Can you bend your pipe or do lots of pie cuts?
And for the rear end, it's a Ford 8.8 center section and half the tubes and then the GM 10 bolt outer tubes welded on or buy a wide 8.8 and cut the ends to length, grind off the Ford mounting parts and install the GM mounting brackets. For the torque arm you can make a bolt on or welded on torque arm mount.
You could prob get away with a pair of GT35s for twins.
Yup, ford 8.8 here, can't be the price, availability and the fact that they are just as strong as 12 bolts but for alot less. I'm running a stock 28 spline axles 8.8 from a crown vic, bolt on tq arm mount, quick LCA brackets swapped my bracket over for PHB and re drilled the axles/rotors for GM bolt pattern (with the axles installed). This is with 28 spline axles and Ive pushed 500+hp through it with no issues. I did add SVO carbon fiber clutches to stock posi, 3.55 gears, moser support girdle and ARP cap studs.
Ha ha that went over my head. I can weld but ive never pulled apart a rear end. Not sure how comfortable id be with building my own.
I will look into GT35's. As of now i do not have a preference. I want some decent turbos. Nothing that is going to fall apart after a couple of drives.
Ill see if i can find some videos of rear end work maybe i can talk myself into it lol. Thanks guys for all the info.
I wouldn't suggest you building a rear. Gear mesh patterns are very hard to get even for expereinced people who do it every day.
500rwhp and your stock 10 bolt or 9 bolt is going to be a time bomb. Get it to hook and kiss that bad boy goodbye. I dont think you'll be able to build a 10 bolt to handle that power reliably. For clarification my 28 spline axles is the weak point (31 spline is just as strong as the 12 bolt) but on the 3rd gen stock rears its the pinon/gear thats the weak point... not the axles so much. Since your turbo/forced induction you should actually run a really "tall" gear... or a low number. Popular gears are 2.73-3.23 and 3.55 being the max. Reason is you dont need alot of gear and it helps the tires from breaking loose when the turbo spools and boost hits like a sludge hammer. Anything more than a 3.55 and your going to be blowing the tires off it.
Alot of stock ford rears have the 2.73-3.55 gears stock. Then its just bolt pattern, tq arm mount and your LCA brackets. Theirs a company who actually just builds ford 8.8s for swaps and does 3rd gens as well from what I remember. Or you could always go with a 12 bolt or S60 or 9".
Turbos are like a box of chocolates. You never know what your gona get! Cheap chinese turbos can actually work and last a while. Some will grenade immediately or last a week or go much longer. Obviously a precision or garrett would be much better but at a much higher cost. But that doest mean they won't go bad either. Your setup design and how its plumbed/operated will affect the turbo longevity and performance. http://www.ebay.com/itm/CXRacing-Uni...-/270940682667 CX racing has a pretty good rep for decent stuff. I ran a GT15 turbo on my oil cooled motorcycle and it ran great and it was a cheap china turbo.
I wouldn't suggest you building a rear. Gear mesh patterns are very hard to get even for expereinced people who do it every day.
500rwhp and your stock 10 bolt or 9 bolt is going to be a time bomb. Get it to hook and kiss that bad boy goodbye. I dont think you'll be able to build a 10 bolt to handle that power reliably. For clarification my 28 spline axles is the weak point (31 spline is just as strong as the 12 bolt) but on the 3rd gen stock rears its the pinon/gear thats the weak point... not the axles so much. Since your turbo/forced induction you should actually run a really "tall" gear... or a low number. Popular gears are 2.73-3.23 and 3.55 being the max. Reason is you dont need alot of gear and it helps the tires from breaking loose when the turbo spools and boost hits like a sludge hammer. Anything more than a 3.55 and your going to be blowing the tires off it.
Alot of stock ford rears have the 2.73-3.55 gears stock. Then its just bolt pattern, tq arm mount and your LCA brackets. Theirs a company who actually just builds ford 8.8s for swaps and does 3rd gens as well from what I remember. Or you could always go with a 12 bolt or S60 or 9".
Turbos are like a box of chocolates. You never know what your gona get! Cheap chinese turbos can actually work and last a while. Some will grenade immediately or last a week or go much longer. Obviously a precision or garrett would be much better but at a much higher cost. But that doest mean they won't go bad either. Your setup design and how its plumbed/operated will affect the turbo longevity and performance. http://www.ebay.com/itm/CXRacing-Uni...-/270940682667 CX racing has a pretty good rep for decent stuff. I ran a GT15 turbo on my oil cooled motorcycle and it ran great and it was a cheap china turbo.
Even back when the L69 came out GM was having 10 bolt rear warranty issues. Nothing wrong with the factory 10 or 9 bolt at stock or close to stock power levels. But when you have double the power and good traction the stock rear's life is limited.
Turbos are like a box of chocolates. You never know what your gona get! Cheap chinese turbos can actually work and last a while. Some will grenade immediately or last a week or go much longer.
The articles I read on the cheap turbos had about the same opinion. They went a step further to recommend that you install a wire mesh (similar to a MAF screen) as insurance if the turbo lets go.
I will definitely look around for the company that does the rear ends and be sure to keep in the low 3's.
That turbo in your link isn't bad priced at all. Looks pretty solid. I'll look at that thirdgen thread tonight. Thanks.
Thinking about cutting the center "between the headlights" so I can push back the radiator. Thoughts? I can weld another support. Also what is the little box under the latch catch? It has two wires with a plug.
If you disconnect it you will probably get the ABS light to stay on. If you want you can pull the main power wire from the cabin side of the C100 connector or just pulling the fuse might work as long as youre ok with no air bag.
08-09-2016, 08:53 AM
