Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Its border line. I've seen 120 lbs and 320 open float horribly at 5700 rpms with the xfi lobes but they are much more aggressive than the XE. I still think a good small diameter dual spring in the 150 lb range would work well and even 160-170lbs to be safe. I ran that on comp mag lobes to 6800+ just fine. Are those springs beehives in his kit? Beehives at 130 should work.

3rd gen Will

iTrader: (8)

used those heads b/c the numbers seems more correct than the wedge (Wedge HP, stock ports/valves numbers were kinda low) and the numbers are pretty close to what Orr came up with using desktop dyno. Same heads for all three cams so It's not a large variable in comparing the cams so I didn't think it was a big deal. I agree that the numbers that programs put out aren't exactly realistic, but I thought it was interesting.

GreggymacZ28

I think with the new cam i am probably going to shift at 6000 rpms and the alexs parts is a straight wall from bottom to top it says? Its only 15 pounds off at open and 10 off at closed and says it supports duration up to 244 and lift to .550 so it's very close to what the cam is. i'm not sure if thats bad?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Duration itself and lift are not enough to choose a spring and determine if it will work. That doesnt tell you how aggressive the lobe is or how fast it will accelerate the lifter.

Shifting at 6K with that cam is too early. You should really get it on a dyno and see what the curve does but I'd go to atleast 6200-6500 depending on what the curve looks like. Its a big cam and makes power up top. 6000 rpm shift points would be better suited to the smaller 423-432 cams.

Post a link to the alex's parts thing. Not sure what you are refering to here. The one spring I see is a 1.470" diameter dual spring that is suppose to be set up at 1.89-1.90 install height but can be adjusted to fit other cams. If you go this route, I'd set it up for a 1.785-1.790" height if possible for a spring seat pressure of about 150lbs seat. This should be enough for now but thats a pretty heavy spring at 1.470" diameter.

Its up to you which way you wish to go but valvetrain is not something to skimp out on. This will make or break the combination. you can be down 60 hp with valve float after 6K rpms or worse risk breaking a valvespring/dropping a valve and blowing motor up.
Alex's parts has decent beehives under the ls1 option, not the stock to mild springs but the performance package. Problem is you'd need new retainers/locks for sbc valves instead of lsx stuff, which they should beable to do.

GreggymacZ28

My shiftpoint i was going to finalize at the track when i see which time i come out with the best, theres no better dyno than the track i think. But ok heres the alex's parts specs here.
http://www.alexsparts.com/valve-spri...oller/#reviews

I think you were looking at the wrong springs earlier, and these springs say hi performance?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Could try it but I'd ask about these first

GreggymacZ28

Oh i never saw that! Alright ill give that a try. Thanks for all your help!

b1k1w1

so to hit 11s you are going to do that with an extra 20 or so hp from cam. Vortec heads suck above 500 lift that's why calling comp was best choice. 750 carb,2500 stall,373 gear or a little lower plus full suspension will get you there. But it will take a lot of tuning only way with low hp and tq. Forget cam for now wast of time. Does not matter how much power if it can't go or falls on its face. 02 ss 13.30 2010 ss 12.9 with 100 more hp. Same hp in 02 low 12s why better setup find your weak spots first then do engine. If your lucky you won't lose power. They have aftermarket heads that's why there high left cams make power. If you have to do it start with 1.6 rockers to see how you engine likes it.

Ron_90

Sarcasm?

While you are right about .500 lift let's think about it practically. The valve spends most of its time below that .500 threshold, especially when the higher-than-stock duration of his proposed grind is taken into consideration. So if he gets a cam with .525 or even .540 lift he'll really be fine and will make more power.

Full suspension? mw66nova posted in here with his crazy 305 build.. that thing ran 12's N/A with an almost completely stock suspension. Suspension will help but there are better things he could put his money into. And if you'd read any of the thread you could have seen that he's going to need a higher stall converter than that, not to mention IIRC, he's already running 3.73's.

Can't speak from experience, but it's a carb not EFI.. not quite as complex in tuning so I doubt it would fall on its face. It's not a waste of time or an impossibility to tune his carb properly with the new setup, either.

If by better setup you mean less weight, then yeah. If you mean anything else, then no. The IRS in the 2010 is a non-factor until you hit 10's and the technology in it far outcries the technology in cars today.

Nope, pretty sure most aftermarket Vortec heads have the same limitations. If not they're usually modded to accept valve lift and might have marginally better castings.

Why? He knows what he wants from his car so he will choose a camshaft accordingly. We already have a rough idea of what these cam profiles will do. Testing the stock cam with 1.6 rockers will only waste his money.

I know that was a fairly harsh denunciation of your post and that you're a new member (hell I'm relatively new- only been here since August) but many times it's better to read than to post when you first join. That's actually the only way I join forums, by reading posts and find lots of helpful people and information.

GreggymacZ28

My time slip shows that i have a very low mph at the end of the track for what i need, i posted that in here somewhere. Also, with a low mph with a higher cam ill be getting that extra hp i need at the end of the track where i need it most. I dont see how a cam will hurt me at all? or how it ever could unless you downgraded. I think the cam is one of the main things i need. It's not just another replacement stock cam, i'm raising the lift as well so going from a 202 duration to 236 and a .420 lift to a .540 lifts not going to help me?

GreggymacZ28

GreggymacZ28

Alright so ive been trying to decide what to do and im not sure which option is the best yet. Should I just put the new 750 carb on thats changed from the 800cfm quadrajet with an adapter and race next year with it before i put the cam in so i can see my gains from it? Or put the cam in now and the holley 750 and just run it all to start out the season?(I'm only talking about between these two options i know i need to do the stall and other stuff, i just mean out of these two options which is best)

b1k1w1

I got on this because I did read this and got tired of the bs. Sorry I forgot that its the time on this blog that dictates my experience. Not the school, working in a shop or the 14 years around drag cars. The irs in the 10 camaro robs hp its only good for traction. Road courses street. As far as a 305 or any other high hp motor in a stock car yeah. Who can't run 12,11,or 10s with sat night car making 500 or 600 hp but I read in first post he wanted to drive the car. And just a cam will not get him there. And if he is on here he does not no how to tune it he just learning did you even know you have to break a cam in or even re cheak clearance. That's a lot of money to learn when 1.6 will give more lift with less risk. Suspension is the best thing to do after carb headers stall and gears you would know that if you raced. And by tuning I ment the suspension. Carbs are not hard if you know what to do that's why it hard to find someone to do it right. But you know that to right. What's harsh is you don't know what you are talking about. Now back to cam ask comp they know best and have hot line witch is what I said just wanted to help I have been there and had to start over. When parts don't match you lose power its about making the most possible power with what you have. Cam springs and labor more then suspension you are not going to get a 100hp increase the other has been shown to drop a sec on light moded cars that's why mags put it on there pages.

b1k1w1

O I forgot I like how you pick that apart next time read and learn don't think you know it all. And they make more then aftermarket vortec heads, like afr dart trick flow etc....... By the way other then my o2ss 383 dish piston dart heads solid cam 825 carb 2800 stall 700 410 and full suspension waiting on turbos built my self and almost done. The 02 fast that's all take your time do it right

GreggymacZ28

I'm pretty sure most of that wasn't addressed towards me? But in the sense of me not knowing what im doing because im posting is ridiculous, in that sense why would you even join a forum to tell everyone that posts they know nothing about cars? I wont disagree with you, you probably know way more than i do being i'm only 17 i have alot of room to learn, but my dads 54 and drag raced his entire life, i'd just rather learn myself how to do it so when it comes to it i know what i'm doing.

Anyhow, i understand what you're saying but i understand i need a bigger stall, i said in here that i already was going to do that as well. Also i know tuning the carb is a big deal, but where you say a cam wont do anything that makes no sense to me? with my lift being .450 1.6 rockers will get me to a .480 lift...Or i do the valve spring mod with the new cam and i can fit a .540 lift cam into my engine. If i keep the 1.6 rockers for that mod i will then have around a .580 lift, which is more than what my springs and heads can handle. So as 1.6 rockers may be a good option for a minimum gain, they wont help me for my goal on the cam i'm going for. Also alot of my time is bad at the end of the track with my mph, a longer duration cam and later rpm peak will give me that end hp gain.

GreggymacZ28

any suggestions on this?

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

I'd go no larger than a 700 cfm carb on that thing. I feel like a mistake that a lot of people make is to slap a big carb on a motor that might not need it.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You dont need to break in a hydraulic roller cam. 1.6 rockers wont give a huge gain with his current setup. It will help, maybe 15hp which is about what i saw on my L98 motor but in the long run, to go faster it needs a new cam.

Comp cams already gave the cam recommendation. Same cam some of us were thinking. Problem with companies like that, if you call and talk to the tech ppl, you can have 3 different ppl give you 3 different cams. Seen this happen all the time.
Even with custom cam companies. I've seen a guy post 10 different "custom" grinds for the same motor and they all were different cams. Some within few deg duration, some within same lift range but some were 10-12 deg LESS duration and over .050" less total lift. It was all over the map.


All depends on what you want to look for next year. You ran a 12.97 at 107mph on a 1.81 60 foot. 107mph is good for mid 12's thats for sure. You just need to get your 60 foot down. Some suspension and converter work could help for sure, but I have a feeling that combo should go faster than a 1.81 60 foot with the current 2800 stall. Did that combo on drag radials dead hook or did it spin alittle? Did you feather the throttle input or just mash it off the line to go? All makes a difference.

So you can up the stall now and change the carb to see what those 2 items do for your times. Shoot for 12.5's in good air. Keep working the motor tune as well to see if there is anymore power in that setup but with that cam and heads combo, I think its doing good for power.


OR you can do the cam upgrade now and see what top end it gives. It likely will 60 foot abit worse, feel alittle soggy with that 2800 stall since it would need closer to a 4000 to work best.

If you kept that 2800 stall, the other 2 cams would work better but may not get you as close to 11's. Its possible but car would need to be well setup.

Atleast if you did the cam swap and after retuning the carb, you find out that its too much for you and you want to change out, just sell the cam and put the stocker back in or buy a new cam. Sure you lose out on some cash but thats what hotrodding is all about. Wont know how it all works until you try it.

GreggymacZ28

You make some good points! But i also was only at 105 mph at the end of the track, which is pretty slow at the end. Also, when i took off, there was no spin but i had a 800cfm carb tuned for a big block buick and i think it was running a little rich because it would haul out like none other, and then kinda sag for a second and then kick it right back in, that could be where i was losing alot of my 60 foot. So i'm hoping a carb will help that.

Also, i figure if i just put the cam in now it will be alot easier coming to race season on tuning it and so forth to get it's fastest time, but at the same time if it runs slower i wont be 100% positive whether it was the carb or the cam.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Well the cam should make it trap higher once its tuned...Put the right carb on it and tune it, and it will go. Even with 2800 stall it will still run ok, it just will be a top end last half of the track type car.

Then again, say your motor picks up a good bit with a new carb and tune with stock 383 crate cam. You may find several mph and alot better ET. Then you may decide you are only a few steps in cam away and quite possibly can get where you want to be with less cam. That would be ideal, but 105mph isnt too bad for the current setup. Proper tune may find 2-4mph more depending on how rich it was. Getting 108 mph traps or so is enough to go mid lower 12's. Then perhaps the milder 230/236 cam would get you high 11's. It really depends on how well setup the car is in the end.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

don't discount a good suspension setup. while i was running boxed stock lca's and a stock torque arm with a poly bushing, i was also running some key pieces that made things work together. two things that every car should have from the factory, but didn't get them: sfc's and lca relocation brackets. these two thing were on my car during that time

had i known then what i know now, that little 305 would have gone 11's.

b1k1w1

yeah sorry we are all on here to learn none of that was toward you just don't like being pick apart and then told to be quiet. Should not have done on your post. As far a cam losing power by being to big was toward your heads. Every style of heads react different to changes that's why they recommend more then one cam. So the duration was a good idea but to much you lose vacuum, your intake charge goes out the exhaust or your heads can't keep up they are already border for 383 will kill top end. Now lift you don't buy a cam for mid lift It does not work that way the more duration you have the longer it will stay at peak lift and you want to close the valve as fast as you can to run more max over lap and are made to do so it goes down faster then it goes up. So your at pick lift longer in mid 500 to 525 is ok because vortec heads do still make power there but are best for low to mid. That's why I said 2500 stall, any more and you are giving up your tq for the top end you don't have and to big of stall on street will burn up converter and stall changes based on hp that's why people do 28 to 3200 stall. Same will happen with to low of gear 342 you have some rpms let at end 373 less and 410 even less to the point you engine falls on its face and loses time. Of course to high 308 you lose hole shot 342 better 373 even better hole shot. So you have to balance your car. There is way more to that and all of this is rule of thumb, a starting point. I love your build and good luck as far as cam, tune it run it cam it run that way see if you gained almost forgot most cams need to be broke in when new just people don't do it. It depends on company so ask when you buy

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

just put a 555 in it with two foggers...you should run 11's then...

Ron_90

You are right about us all being here to learn, but in order to learn we have to be corrected from time to time. You said some stuff that really didn't make sense (and failed to counter any points given by anyone else) so I offered sense. Point in case: my English teacher last year would give me papers back that looked like they had been shot (read: lots of red ink), and I was one of the best writers in my class! Sure didn't like it but it only made me better and more knowledgeable. In sort of the same way, while I give you credit for knowing more than my idiot friends, you must understand that you're on a dedicated forum filled with very knowledgeable people and the same stuff you say outside of here isn't necessarily true or the best thing.
I also might add that typing your responses in a more coherent way helps greatly.

@mw66nova (because I'm too lazy to quote)
Definitely not discounting suspension setup too much- I realized this a few months back and have slowly been buying better suspension components. But, I'm more like the OP- work on the engine and drivetrain first. My thinking is that he won't have many traction-related issues weighing in at 3600 but I could always be wrong.
And if you have any other tips please shoot me a PM, I'd love to hear them.

b1k1w1

I agree suspension. If you don't have the cash for aftermarket you can Always box in the stock till later. Lowes has 1/8inch x 6feet for 13 dollars. Every little bit helps it would only be the lowers and panhard. But that will get your 60 times down. Also its just a matter of time before trans mount brakes. A torque arm relocation setup will be need and help. And no one asked if you had subframe connectors a must have!

GreggymacZ28

It's funny you say that actually, because i broke the trans mount the first day i took my car to the track, and i replaced it with a really durable one but i forget the exact words of it now, ill look it up later. But suspension is something i'm going to do ill just have to find the cash for it. But no i do not have sfc's.

Anyway,I was actually thinking about maybe buying 1.6 rockers to use with the cam i have now, and see what time i can get with that, and then once i see my fastest time i can get a new cam and put the 1.5 rockers back in or a little smaller cam and leave the 1.6's. Does this sound like a decent idea? Or would it be just a waste of money in the long run?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You can always try it and sell off the 1.6's later. I'd just run the comp magnum versions for self aligning heads like those vortecs (I think they are still self aligning). They are cheap at ~170 a set. Then flip them and buy the 1.5's or reuse your 1.5's if you already have aftermarket lifters.

GreggymacZ28

Yeah thats what i was going to try to do! Raising my lift from .450 to .480 wont cause me to change my shifting will it?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I doubt it. Typically you see power gain in the same rpm range. 1.6 rockers may change the duration seen at the valve by 1-3 deg but thats not really gonna change anything.

I really think this setup will wake up with a cam. If it responds well to the lift change, it should really like duration change as well. However if you see power gain i dont think its gonna be significant. Maybe 10 hp.

GreggymacZ28

Alright that sounds good to me!

Now lets say i get the 1.6 rockers and run it, and then i go to put in a bigger cam. My lift only being able to go up to .550, would it be better to keep the 1.6 rockers and then get a little bit of a smaller cam to get me up closer to .550, or switch back to 1.5 and go with the 433 (288hr) like ive been planning the whole time?

Also comp cams responded to my 6 page thing four days later, and all they said was to go with the cam i was already deciding and that if i wanted to run a higher lift i should have my heads machined down...when i specifically stated that i wanted to raise my lift of the amount of cam i could put in without taking them to get machined down thanks for the help comp!

Ron_90

Probably because they either don't know or don't recognize the ghetto grind method. But it seems like we always come back to your original cam selection.. why not just go with it? You'll probably end up being more than happy with that cam and 1.5 lifters

GreggymacZ28

Well, i made this whole thread so that it would help me learn so i knew that i'd be making the right decision. So far the best decision i made was to post this, because of all the answers and other information everyone in here has supported me with. But i still want to make sure what i am buying is correct. You have to remember me being 17 400 dollars isnt like chump change to be thrown around, it's a big chunk of what i've got.

So im taking this as an investment, on what can i spend the least amount of money on to get the most power. Now with that cam that i have originally picked and what everyone seems to pick, i didn't know if that cam would would make more power with 1.5 rockers than a little bit of a smaller cam with 1.6. Does 1.6 hold any benefit other than just increasing the lift and duration a tad?

Ron_90

I didn't know you were 17. I'm 17 myself, bought and am building my car with all of my own funds so I definitely know where you're coming from.
I'd be looking on ebay or other places for used or reconditioned cams- that's the great thing about hydraulic rollers, they last forever.
For example, this might interest you: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Small-Block-...#ht_500wt_1156
100% positive feedback too

GreggymacZ28

I had no idea you were 17 either,aha. Good to see someone knows where i'm coming from on this! And wow i have looked up so many cams on ebay and never found anything for the price you just listed with that, i'm definitely looking into that some more there. Thanks!

GreggymacZ28

Nevermind that cam wont work, it says its missiong a fuel pump lobe and also it says it likes to run with a chip, and since im running a carb that wont work. I think i'm just going to go with the majority decision here and just go with the 433 cam and see what that does for me.

Ron_90

Good luck with that. I can't wait to hear how it works out for you

Now I'm going to pray for snow so I can afford that cam I just showed you That's so much better than the stock LT1 cam I'm going to put in as of now.

GreggymacZ28

Thanks! and haha, ok goodluck with your build too

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

i don't like running higher than 1.5 ratio rockers cause it puts more stress on the valve guides and can wear funny on the valve stems.

b1k1w1

Nice thing about that cam is that the lift is low enough to work with those heads and when you move on to different heads throw on some 1.6 keep cam make over 500 n/a

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I'd be careful with the cheap cams you find on ebay... remanufactured makes me nervous, especially seeing a new hyd roller go for 140 bucks. They could have soft cores and may wear out quickly with spring pressures of a hyd roller setup.

Most higher rpm stuff requires billet cores, and even some mild street builds billet cores are used for longevity as there has been cases of cast cores having poor quality.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

with a little luck you can find deals

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/engi...ic-roller.html

Theres your 433 cam for 125 bucks!!

GreggymacZ28

Ive typed that number on these forums numerous times and never have seen anything. Thanks again Orr for pulling through for me again! I Pmed him, ill let you know if that comes through!

GreggymacZ28

Ok i just bought that cam orr. So now i finally can move forward on the build. I'll let you guys know how it goes!

3rd gen Will

iTrader: (8)

Def look forward to some results! :-)

GreggymacZ28

Thanks! Thanks for all your help too, it really made me make sure i needed to get the right cam, all the cams everyone listed were very close to what i got anyway. I live in michigan so i wont be able to show results very soon.

But i will definitely let you guys know how my clearance and everything is working out, and how fast it goes

1gary

Kewl Gregg.Nothing like a good deal huh.

GreggymacZ28

Haha, exactly. That's definitely a plus side to this site!

GreggymacZ28

Ok, update. I am starting to get ready to put the new springs in and cam, and ive been reading alot on press in studs and screw in studs. Alot of people say you have to go screw in with any high performance engine. While others say you wont need screw in on vortec heads till you reach a lift above .600. WHat do you guys think i should do?

Also, I am not looking to take the heads off, thats more work than what im really wanting to do right now, as my dad is about to sell his car and is using the garage to clean it up, so i only get a little time here and there.

So tapping the studs in for screw in is something i only want to do if completely necessary.

3rd gen Will

iTrader: (8)

You need to either pin the press in's or go screw in studs. This is mandatory IMO.

You can get away with out pulling the heads if you use this screw in stud kit. Cheap insurance.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MRG-1076/

It's not the lift of the cam, but the spring pressure that will cause the rocker arm to pull the studs out so don't get so hung up on .xxx lift number.

GreggymacZ28

Right, i also read you dont need screw ins till 600 seat pressure on your springs. But that kit, i read alot of people talking about mr. gaskets.

Sorry for maybe a dumb question, but why are those safe to do with the heads on? Because they have the right stud length? or what? Would i still have to tap it before installing? And if so then wouldnt it be possible for the shavings to go down into the heads?