357 Camaro

This is not a what would I run thread.




So to begin I have not been around long jus mainly a reader. I have some question about
my set up that I would like some advice on. I wish I knew bout this site when I had the motor built it might
have turned out different, but you live and learn but ne way lets get to it.


Engine- 357 cu. in. , eagle crank, eagle rods, speed pro pistons flat tops, earson hydraulic roller custom cam
duration @.050 238/246 , lift 548 int 548 exh, lobe sep 108, double roller timing chain. Patriot alum. head 185cc 64 cc.
, 2.02 intake, 1.60 exh. Comp roller rocker arms 1.5,edlebrock vic. jr. 6in. high rise intake,750 holly 4 barrel double pumper,
accel dist. 50k coil, 8.5mm wires. 10.5.1 compression


Transmission- 700r4 .500" sonnax boost valve, 4th gear super hold duel servo, low rev boost valve,
beast sun shell, 29 segment sprag, master kit w/z pac 3/4, corvette servo, rear planet oil baffle, borg warner
low roller clutch, transgo high rev springs, trango manual valve body, high performance shift kit, Kevlar lined extra wide
high performance racing bands with reinforced anchor pin.(STOCK CONVERTER well get to that n a bit.)


rear end- Reinforced 10 bolt, spool, Richmond 4.56 gears, moser axles,
heavy duty diff cover.


exhaust- headman headers


fuel- Holly blue 1/2 fuel line to a holly regulator 5 gal fuel cell.


suspension- stock springs, 50/50's, 90/10's, sub frame connectors,


Now I know there is a lot of detail, but id like the best advice and answers to my questions
I can get. So here we go.


1- Converter stall.... I kinda got screwed the guy that built my trans didn't get the one I paid for he put it in years ago.
Now id like to know what stall I should be looking to get for this set up. will be shifting at 6800-7000


2- What fuel pressure should I be setting my regulator to for this motor and carb?


3-Suspension wise is there ne thing that I should be getting to assure better traction on the strip? traction bars ect...?


4 Tires- I will not be running slicks because of the rear end. I will most likely be running street or drag radials. What size should
I be looking at for the rears? I know it needs be right size for traction speed rpms ect... right?


5- I can take critasism and I know my set up is not the best but for future ref. what would y'all recommend me change to get
better performance and hp out of this motor.


Like I said I know my set up isn't the best out there and if I was around years ago I would of done things different when having
this put together.
I really do appreciate the advice and answers to my question even if there not what I wanna hear.


You guys are the best thanks.

AlkyIROC

1: Need advertised duration to calculate stall speed, not @ .050" spec

2: All carbs operate with no more than 7 PSI so 6-7 is your target.

3: No traction bars for third gen suspension. Get rid of all the squishy, flexing factory components for better aftermarket parts. Install some lower control arm relocation brackets to keep the LCA level or down at the rear. Get rid of the front sway bar and keep or install a rear one.

4: Install slicks. No sense trying to make power if your going to just spin off the line. For most vehicles, a 26" tall tire works fine but for best traction, install the tallest tire possible under the fenders then adjust the gearing to match the rpm range. Your 4.56 gears will probably want a minimum of a 28" tall tire. 29.5" would probably be better. A 9" slick fits with no problems. 10-10.5 may need some inner fender work depending on the height, rim backspacing etc. If you don't want to install a tall tire, change out the diff gear to 4.10

5: Get rid of the 700R4. An overdrive transmission is not required on the dragstrip especially with those 4.56 gears. You'll get better performance with a TH350 or a TH400.

357 Camaro

1-adv. duration is 298/306


2- its sitting at 6 1/2 righ now but seems to flood the plugs should I see bout jetting down?


3-lca's sound positive it has no front sway bar still has the rear. What springs are best for our cars?


4- Ty a lot for this answer. Im gonna go with a 28/9 or 9.5.


5- I know the 700r4 isn't the best transmission Its only 1/8 mile racing round here is why I have the gears I have. Correct me if im wrong but I don't think
ill see 4th gear. Can you explain for me what the 4th gear super hold duel servo is? sorry is stupid question.


I have recent ran into a short tail power glide I baught for 25 bucks needs rebuild and it will take a lot to have it put in out cars. Longer drive shaft no tq arm ect..
correct me if im wrong please. Can do no wrong with more information.




Thank you

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

will probably want a 3600+ converter.
drag radials could still break the rear. the 4.56's will be very weak.
ditch the 700r4 for a th350 or th400 and get the converter for that. sell 700 while its still in good shape.
aftermarket suspension stuff would help, but the stock stuff would probably work ok at this point. an aftermarket torque arm such as the jegster would be a good start.

AlkyIROC

Since this is race only, I'd recommend a converter that stalls closer to 4000 for that camshaft although the cam card says the rpm range is 3000-6000. It might not be a good enough cam for your goals. That's more of a really hot street cam than a race cam. The cam has no advance ground into it so if you retard the cam 4*, you can move the powerband up slightly. If you haven't purchased the cam yet, select a different one that will work in your desired rpm range.

357 Camaro

Thanks for the advice.


The converter I originally thaught I had purchesed was 3300.


So I will be looking for a 3600-4200 range. Does that sound bout right?


At first the project was to see some street time. It may still see some. That's why I was wanting street or drag radials. The project jus got a lil out of hand haha it happens to the best of us I guess. The came is in stalled the motor was built years ago along with the trans. This has been on going for 7-8 years haha.


Mighty fine car u got there alky


How bout one of these
http://www.jegs.com/i/TCI/890/243111...oductId=747566
http://www.jegs.com/i/TCI/890/243161...arentProductId=

Night rider327

iTrader: (13)

Stay away from big box brand off the shelf torque converters. The results will be lacking.

Those 2 TCI's you post are already close to $600, for same price of a couple hundred more you can get a very good custom built unit.

Look into a custom built converter from somebody like PTC, Jakes performance, Yank.. Freakshow converters I have never used one but heard good things about them, FTI, Edge converters, ATI, roadrunner converters, midwest converters, coan.

Traction comes from better/stronger suspension parts, no add on traction bars or anything for our cars.

Look for an aftermarket torque arm thats adjustable and gets the torque arm off the trans tailshaft and mounts it to a saddle, crossbar or crossmember.
I use the adjustable jegster torque arm.

Aftermarket rear lower control arms, control arm relocation brackets, and aftermarket panhard rod.

357 Camaro

sad thing is that's bout my limit for a converter the wifey only lets me play so much....if we can find one in the 5-600 range would be great I may have to go with one of those.


She is not very flattered with my project haha.
im already getting tires ect... I know u gotta pay to play but like I said she only lets me play so much.
Between those 2 which would u pick unless I can find one better for same price?

quik88

i think i got 500 in my ptc. well worth it. they recommended the 8 inch but like you i can only play so hard so i went with a ten inch. i am making around 450 horse. the guy at ptc said i was probably leaving a tenth or so on the table with the ten inch but the eight inch was 850 or so i believe. fti also makes a ten inch around five hundred. but either was its set up for your car when you deal with them.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I'd be looking for something in the 4000-4500rpm range, and if it's going to stay a street car something with lockup might be OK. I'm with everyone else, spend the money on a good converter, not some cheap off the shelf unit. You'll be disappointed with it's performance and you'll be chasing that till you do spend the money on a good converter.

Be aware that that drivetrain will be on borrowed time, 4.56 gears will have a very small pinion and it will be prone to breaking, more so than something like a 3.23 with the same power. After that, well 700r4's just don't tend to live well in a real performance application that gets beat on regularly (there have been a few people that have had luck with them for a while but it's not common).

A sticky drag radial will actually be harder on your drivetrain than a tall/soft slick. Done right both should be able to hook the car hard, but a slick will absorb some of the shock.

Suspension... really, as long as the bushings are in good shape you can go _very_ fast (much faster than this combination will run) with stock parts if you know what you're doing. The only part that I would consider essential is an aftermarket PHR (a hard shift at the track with a stock one and an aftermarket one will tell you why, but they flex and let the car go sideways hard on a shift), the rest I would replace as parts wear out or you have budget. LCA Relo brackets are nice for tuning but not necessary unless your car sits low.

Past that the headers/exhaust are small for the rest of that combination... heck, the headman Y necks down to 2.5". Once you do something about that I suspect that the heads are on the small side for that combination also. 185cc intake ports are "I have a stock car and I want better heads on it" heads, with a cam that size, decent compression... you could take advantage of good heads with intake ports >20cc bigger.

If it was me I'd figure out what you're doing for a transmission/converter first, and then go from there.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

You can get by with a cheap-ish converter on a lower powered car. Dont have to spring for a $900 one necessarily. But if you start hitting it with nitrous a cheap converter may not take too kindly.

357 Camaro

Does ptc have a website phone number?


Now my car has no computer all the wiring is gone I have replaced it with my own harness. Do I need a non lock up because of no comp.


Can some one please tell me the diferance between to 2.

quik88

ptcrace.com call them and they can answer any question you have way better than we can. converters are a magical mysterious piece buy a good one!!!!

Night rider327

iTrader: (13)

Yep ptcrace.com
Performance Torque Converters - 2717 East Avalon Avenue
Muscle Shoals, AL 35661 - Telephone: 256-383-6868

You can get a 10" PTC for around $450 to 525

Jake's performance 9.5" starts at $500

Edge Converter $545

357 Camaro

Can someone answer my question bout the conveters.


Whats the dif between lock up and none lock up. I have no computer in the car. its a manual valve body trans now so I shift it.


Also I went to r@r speed shop in Huntsville Alabama they told me 1k for a custom ptc. Prolly throwing there good price on it to.
Also I didn't know it was n muscle shoals I can jus go there.

AlkyIROC

http://www.hardtail.com/techtips/torqueconverters.html

A lockup converter is not required for drag racing. It helps fuel economy by reducing or eliminating slippage while driving around under the stall speed.

One thing about torque converters, you do get what you pay for and stay away from mass produced off the shelf converters. My custom built 8" race converter is worth over $1000. It also stalls at 6000 rpm but I'm never below that rpm during a 1/4 mile run.

skinny z

A converter can make a difference even in a more pedestrian application. Witness the 81 Monte Carlo in our "fleet". The 10" TCI (off the shelf) seemed to perform reasonably well. Our problem we thought was with the wide 1-2 gear split in the 700. It was a mid 12 second street car and had been developed about as much as it could be. Then we ordered a custom spec'd Yank converter which while pricier than the TCI by almost 50%, made a difference in the vehicle that's almost night and day. 2 full 10ths in the quarter now with a personal best of 12.31. What's more it's taken some of the edge of the big drop into 2nd gear and keeps the rpms up after the shift. Lock-up function too.
Highly recommend saving the money now so as as to invest in better equipment later.
That'll be the next step for the Camaro.

357 Camaro

Thanks for the advice im going to call ptc n morning and get one there.


I honestly didn't know its only 35 mins away from me. Good tc and don't have to drive far to get it haha cant beat it. Ill have him spec it 4000 since that where everyone sems to think its gonna be best in that range.


I have no expectations with this car I learned to never get ur hopes up because when u go u will not be happy its gonna take track time and tuning for sure.


I don't know what the hp is (no dyno run yet) and I don't know what its gonna run. So when I go I can jus be happy with what it does.


Ne idea on thw weight of these things fully gutted 8 point roll cage 5 gal fuel cell? I bet he might ask the weight of the car to spec the converter right id guess 3000 maybe?


Alky I read that bout tc a very good read ty so much. Jus few questions it says there is a switch that racers us to lock up the tc since there is no computer to tell a solenoid in
most drag cars. BUt does it really shave some time locking it up going down the track? Do you do this? If I was to get a non lock up would it be ok on the road? Or should i jus get
a lock up and buy the solenoid switch kit and jus be done with it? Wat do most of you guys do if you drive ur car you race on the road a bit?


Sorry if I seem clueless im jus trying get this right.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

dont tell him what you want, ask them what you need. they will ask you a ton of questions about the car/engine/drivetrain and then make a recommendation based off of that.
a lockup converter for that 700 will be fairly expensive.
this car doesnt need a full tilt $1k converter. (although the lockup feature will run the price up)
you can also try fti in florida. thats who did mine.

Night rider327

iTrader: (13)

Like Diggler said, with a custom converter, you don't tell them what you want.. You give them your car specs and the build you one to match your car. The more info you have for them, the better the results will be.

I would highly recommend getting the car scaled before ordering a converter. If nothing else drive the car to the local truck stop, dump or scrap yard and get it weighed. Truck stops will weigh cars.. Less than $10 to pull across the scales.

Non lockup is fine for a strip/street car. Look at all the 1960's, 70's, and early 80's cars with powerglides, th-350's, th-400's stock. Those are non lockup units.

Both of my cars runs non lock up. My camaro and v8 S10. Camaro was my daily driver for years, now the S10 is my daily driver

quik88

yea i also know fti is a great company. my dad has one of theirs in his roadster. like alky said you get what you pay for. i think my dad had around 11 in his 8in fti.

357 Camaro

Ptc is makin a custom he got all my info and rate it at
4500 gonna build it for 475 bucks thats me right there.

non lock up 10 in. 4500 stall


Kenny the guy I talked to also said the cam is rated 3000-7000. The shop that built my motor said to shift it about 6800.
Next on the list is a good set of tires.
Ive got center line rims with skinnys for the front I jus ned find a good set I like.
Im getting 28 for rear what height should I be lookin at for the front?

quik88

good deal man. you will be very pleased.

AlkyIROC

There are so many factors that can determine the proper stall speed but even then it may not be correct. I go off camshaft duration when someone asks for a stall speed. That alone puts the converter into the proper powerband for the camshaft.

How the rest of the car is set up can determine if it's a good combination or not.

A few years ago, I did some experimentation. My 4.86 gears are set up great but ET prediction software said I'd be better off with 4.56. I swapped out the 4.86 for some 4.57's I had. Didn't change anything else. Same launch rpm, same shift rpm etc. The car ran slower. Swapped the 4.86 back in for the next race and the car picked right back up to where it was before.

If the gear swap also included a converter stall swap, performance may have increased but the 6000 stall converter didn't like the 4.57 gears but loves the 4.86 gears.

Get a converter that matches the cam grind for best performance then build the car around it to get that performance.

357 Camaro

I think Kenny at ptc got it right hopefully.


He took all my info my set up cam trans gears weight ect...


Can anyone answer the question bout the tires I should get for the fronts how tall should it be. im getting 28/9 or 10 on the rear.


What are most of you guys using for a breather I got the standered circle atm I hate it. Ne one got a hood scoop breather.
Ne advice?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I'm sure he did, PTC does excellent work...

... <looks down> can't go wrong with a ten inch lol.

AlkyIROC

Buy some 15 x 3-1/2 front skinny rims of your choice of style. Factory tire height is 26". You can cheap out with some VW tires. 165R15 or 165/80R15. They're a little over 25" tall and will work just fine. I run MT 27.5" front tires and needed to install axle stops on my aftermarket A-arms to keep the wheels from turning too far and hitting the inner fenders. Tall front tires add rollout and reduce the chance of red lighting. A racing front runner tire is very light compared to the VW radial tires but also has very little tread which will wear out quickly.

Can't comment of an air filter assembly. I run a Hilborn style scoop to cover the flying toilets on top of my tunnel ram that pokes through the hood. I found that scoops attached to the hood catch too much air and want to lift the hood off.

357 Camaro

What master cut off switches are you guys using?
Does it have to mounted on the rear of the car?




Lol street lethal that's what she said.

AlkyIROC

I use a generic master switch available at industrial supply wearhouses.

As per NHRA/IHRA rulebooks

Any battery not mounted in the OEM location must have a master switch located at the rear. At 9.99 in the 1/4, a master switch is mandatory even if battery is still in OEM location.
Switches must not be made of plastic and must not be keyed
Must be installed in the positive cable and must kill the engine and all electrical devices when put into the off position. Simply disconnecting the power cable will not kill the engine if it uses an alternator.
Off must be clearly marked
If installed in a push/pull configuration, off must be push.

If your car is upside down and the engine is still running, you want the safety crew to kill everything as quickly and easily as possible.

357 Camaro

Battey is in oe spot and no way ill run 9.99 not with
this set up ne way.

Do i still need one? What bout fuel pump shut off?
Jus dont wanna go and get sent home.
Are most of you jus using the standerd circle breatthers
i have it atm jus hate how it looks lol.

skinny z

Are you talking about the air filter assembly that sits on the carb?
Yes, I think you'll find most everybody uses the traditional 14" open element design.
Options are few but there some:
I've seen some that incorporate the OEM TPI style air filter assembly and then connect it to a carb hat. Picture 1.
There are also the aftermarket products. Ram Air Box comes to mind.
http://www.ramairbox.com/index.html
Personally I'm leaning towards their sealed 14" filter case with a single 4" snorkle (2nd from the right in picture 2). I'd then extend that over the rad and use the TPI filter case (like picture 1) but not use the twin filters.










There are other options too but the carb limits some of the flexibilty..

357 Camaro

Very nice I wouldn't mind getting that one that allows u t have duel filters.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/spe-796r/overview/



I know i ask alot of questions but heres annother.

I have electric water pump what hoses are you guys using
the oe style jus suk shut.


Is this battery ne good. I like the weight only being 9 pounds.
http://www.jegs.com/i/Braille+Battery/147/B129/10002/-1

357 Camaro

I don't mean to double post but I found these tires I like a lot reviews are good.
good for the track and legal to get on the road a bit. I do not want to mess with tube tires.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mtt-3754r/overview/


Ne one had luck? out of 12 reviews its 5 out of 5

AlkyIROC

DOT slicks are only really required when you're racing in a class that demands a DOT tire. Buy an extra set of rims and mount track tires on them. Leave street tires on the car for street use.

All slicks including those DOT tires get sticky when heated up in the water box. The rubber is soft and the oils and compounds in them make the rubber sticky. When using them on the street, they go through constant heat and cool cycles which will dry out the tires and make them less sticky. Also since the rubber compound is very soft, the mileage you get out of the tires is very low.

If you live within a few miles of the track, you could install them, drive to the track, race then drive home to put your street tires back on but I wouldn't recommend using these types of tires for a daily driver. Think of it this way, the typical mileage on these tires is about the same as an oil change. Can you afford to change the tires when you change your oil?

357 Camaro

I would only be drivig it maybe 1 time a month or so I do have another set of rims and tires I could use to put around when I wanted to but id like to have my centerline rims on it. How long do those tires usually last jus sitting around?

357 Camaro

Got my tq converter from ptc today 10 inch 4500 stall thanks a lot for help guys. Im taking all ur advice and getting what I need may have more pics soon ty again guys.

quik88

i got one that looks just like that!!! you wont be let down with it man. now its time to put it in and put it to work!

skinny z

Something I'm looking forward to this year. I'm 20 kms from work and 5 kms from there to the dragstrip....

This from the Mickey Thompson website:

THE SERVICE LIFE OF YOUR M/T TIRES IS NOT ENTIRELY DICTATED BY CHRONOLOGICAL AGE.

All M/T tires are designed with conscience efforts to maximize tire life with maximum performance. That being said, the useful life of a tire is a function of its use, application, and storage conditions. Since these elements can vary widely, and are not controlled by the manufacturer, accurately predicting the life of any specific tire based on calendar age is near impossible.

However, with that understanding Mickey Thompson does recognize the benefit of a uniform approach regarding the service life issue. Accordingly, M/T has come up with the following age criteria for removing tires from service. These dates are based from the manufacturing date.

• Race Tires – 4 years.
• Bias Truck Tires – 8 years
• Radial Light Truck Tires – 10 years
• Passenger Tires – 10 years

Under no circumstances should these recommendations be consider as an "expected" service life. Most tires will need to be replaced before these time limits are met due to service conditions.

That said, my M/Ts are more than 8 years old and what I've observed is that my 60' times are starting to diminsh. While I can't say that's directly attributed to the age of my tires as I've changed a few other parameters regarding the car (not the least of which is a new engine), it gets to me to thinking I might need new tires.

357 Camaro

Thank you very much skinny, very good info.What tires are you running?

skinny z

I have the MT ET Streets 26 x 10.5-16 LT. They're mounted on the same IROC rims as my street tires and every now and then I'll put them on when I'm out for a cruise.
Like Alky said though, too many heat/cool cycles is bound to take some life out of them. My thinking is that despite mine being old from a date standpoint and possibly past their prime, they have hardly any miles on them. I wouldn't think they've seen more than a 100 quarter mile passes plus some added back road duty. Lots of "tread" left so I might as well burn them up. If they show a real lack of grip this season, then I'll have to spring for something new. Haven't decided on a radial or bias-ply this time around.

357 Camaro

Quick question has ne one painted there headers if you have what paint did you use that stuck well and didn't burn off the first 3 times u run the car hah.


Wat are you guys using to get ride of the brake booster its ugly and all n the way what can I do to convert to manual brakes or ne thing I cant do to make that look somewhat decent haha.

Night rider327

iTrader: (13)

I use VHT high temp header paint. It holds up pretty good. I get about 6-8 mo. from it.

I converted over to manual brakes on mine. I used a strange brand small bore master cyl. Here's a pic of mine https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/atta...e-dscf3696.jpg

357 Camaro

Wow that does look so much better then that booster. Do you have ne problems stopping at the strip?


What is that lil block that you have ur brake lines going to?
Sorry for dumb questions.




That vht paint did u cure it or did u allow it to air dry its got all kinda ways to do it.

skinny z

I had all kinds of trouble with header paint in the past (VHT included) and THEN I read the instructions. I paid particular attention to the curing process, especially the part about it being fully dried before any heat curing takes place.
In my case, I thoroughly cleaned the headers, (sandblasting and then with wax and grease remover) and applied the paint as per instructions. Plenty of light coats. I used almost one can per side. Then I let them sit for 24 hours before I installed them. After that, it was heat cured as per the on the car instructions.
So far it's been almost 2 years and they still look pretty good. This is the first year I've stored the car outdoors over the winter. It'll be interesting to see how they hold up to the harsher environment.

357 Camaro

Thank you very much skinny. I went and got some well see how it goes haha.

Night rider327

iTrader: (13)

Cure on my vht painted headers is about the same as Skinny's.. Many light coats after prepping headers well, air dry 24 hours, heat cure on engine.. Bringing headers up to temp until they started smoking, shut down and let cool, then bring back up to temp.

Stopping with the manual brakes is fine. In fact my setup stops as good or better than the stock PB's did, only thing is it takes more leg pressure to make the car stop. Just have to press harder on pedal.

The "block" on the firewall is a line lock (also known as a roll stop or roll control). I have it plumbed to my front brakes. It's a valve that can hold pressure on your brakes with out foot on pedal. Makes heating the tires up (burn out) easier.

Pump brake pedal, push button, let off of the brake pedal and now the rear brakes are unlocked but front brakes are still locked.. They will unlock when I let go of the button

The little red item inline with my brake line is a 10 # residual valve. I deleted the prop. valve on mine and I have rear drum brakes so I installed a the valve inline with rear brake line to help keep pressure on line to take "slack" out of the pedal travel

357 Camaro

Very nice ty night I do believe ima go ith the manual brake set up. Do a lot of people do this to get rid of that hideous booster?




I need to jet my carb should I get a kit such as this?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-36-181/overview/


Or is there ne certain sizes I should get? its jus got the ones that came in it.
Primary main jets 71, Secondary main jets 80, Power valve 6.5, Primary Nozzle 28, Secondary Nozzle 31

Night rider327

iTrader: (13)

Your welcome..

Truthfully I have never known anyone to swap to manual brakes due to the looks of the booster.

Everyone I know that's done it was for function.. Less weight for a drag car, cause engine does not make enough vac to run the booster so brakes do not work well, clearance reasons like trying to fit a turbo system, etc.

357 Camaro

Gettin rid of ne weight is good to. Anyone weighed the booster
how much is it?
Any advice on jet sizes i should buy?

skinny z

I'm not sure what your budget is or what your plans are however I strongly suggest you invest in a wide band O2 sensor as well as a vacuum gauge mounted near your dash. It'll make the carb tuning so much easier and the choice of jets, power valves and squirters will be clearer too. They're not particularly expensive and you'll soon realize that it'll be one of the best investments in your car that you can make. It'll pay for itself too as you'll not only be able to dial in the performance side of your carb, but also zero in on some decent fuel mileage and save money as the gas pumps.
Now someone may chime in here and say reading plugs can yield the same results but I'll argue that point with them. Pulling the plugs..? On the highway doing 70 mph? Idling around town? Maybe after a WOT pass at the dragstrip and then maybe you'll get some sort of results but overall, the wide band is the way to go.
Thanks for listening...