TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I had a friend with 2 manhole covers in his trunk.... for traction.
I'd hate to see what would of happened if he crashed..

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

this gives some good definitions of what each term is, but how they go about getting the definition is quite a bit different on a torque arm car. see picture for IC definition on torque arm car:

mrestrictrplate

iTrader: (2)

If I had a passenger in my car and pulled up to a light to race someone I asked them to jump in the back seat so the car would hook up better. My crazed younger days. It worked great

skinny z

I'd get out of my buddies car so he didn't have to race with my 200 lb *** in the passenger seat.

AlkyIROC

I'm pretty sure my 4-link is set up with the IC above the AS line. That's also why I always pull the front wheels off the car. My IC should be below the AS line so that I don't hit the tires so hard.

Depending on the car's entire setup, it's not uncommon to see a 4-link car with the IC below ground level to soften the hit even more. These are also super fast cars with large slicks for traction. With the IC below ground level it's unlikely it will pull the front wheels off the ground. Cars running in classes like SuperGas or SuperComp don't want to pull the front wheels. If they do, they'll probably lose the race.

With a torque arm system, all you can do is raise and lower the IC by changing the position of the front mount then readjusting the pinion angle. Length of the torque arm will depend on how close the IC is to the AS line. A short torque arm is like running ladder bars. A small adjustment in height is a large movement in the IC height. For super fast cars (800 plus HP), the IC always needs to be long and low. Slower cars work well with short and high to help raise the front end and force the diff down to plant the tires.

There's also downsides to a 4-link system. My 4-link bars use 3/4" bolts so the amount of holes I have at either end is limited compared to a 4-link system that uses 5/8" bolts. Even still, I may have a few dozen IC combinations to choose from but only a small handful are actually useful.

With any suspension system, shocks are just as important. If the suspension is setup to force the diff downward to plant the tires, the shocks need to be able to control the diff movement. On my setup, I use a 12 way double adjustable coil over shock. I want the shock to extend quickly then slowly compress. That will allow the diff to be forced down quickly and keep it down until I'm at least past the 60 foot line before the shock is back to a more neutral position.

Problem with a street car is the suspension needs to be used in all sorts of driving conditions. What works well on the dragstrip won't work well when cornering. You have to find a happy medium.

mrestrictrplate

iTrader: (2)

This thread is funny... Lay off the sauce lol...

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I lowered the rear control arms. I'll drive it for a week to figure out if it helped or not. First impression is it spins the same as before, but I think the front of the car is rising higher so maybe it is doing more than I think.


It changed the handling though. Now the rear axle drifts left instead of going straight. I can play with the weight jacks to make it go straight.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Holy Crap!

I've been known to write a freaking book to answer a question but this is ridiculous. I kept wondering what kinds of drugs people were taking to write some of this.

How about this:

The nittos are decent dual purpose drag radials... If you want them to live on the street you need to keep them around 30psi, if you want more traction you need to run less. You can't have both.

Pinion angle does nothing for traction on these cars.

LCA relo brackets hit the tires harder as you lower the rear pivot point. With a tall tire with soft sidewalls this can mean more traction. With a short/stiff sidewall tire (those look like 275/40-17's in the pic) on a hard launch the sidewall will not be able to absorb the energy and will hook for the first few feet then spin. A manual transmission shocks the whole setup harder and that reaction is more extreme. I've run almost EXACTLY the same combination on a 4th gen (275/40-17 Nitto DR's, it was a 6 speed car...) and it ran fastest at the track with the rear LCA pivot in the stock hole (close to parallel to the ground). It felt like it reacted harder on the street with them in a lower hole, but it was really just it reacting more violently.

So what is this thing? A street car? A street race car? How much power does it make from what kind of engine? It sounds like you have the suspension setup mostly for handling on the street, stiffer than you'd want for anything that you expect to do well in a straight line but not as stiff as you'd setup a car for autox or RR. If you expect to dump the clutch and have it just hook on the street, well you're not being realistic. That combination, 400hp + clutch + even the stickiest tires = tire smoke if you just let go of the clutch and give it go pedal.

Granny

If the car can hook on the street from a 4000rpm roll in 1st gear, it can be made to hook on the street from a 4000rpm dig as well.
Can it hook on the street from a 4000rpm roll in 1st gear?

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

No, I would have to be in 3rd gear to dead hook. Didn't use to hook in 3rd so this is improvement.

I don't have expectations of flat footing throttle in 1st gear. I just thought it can work better than it does. And it is improving little by little.

skinny z

I'm not sure if there's really enough in the OEM configuration suspension wise to really get that 1st gear. Once you get beyond the IC geometry, and not wanting to run a drag strip setup with changes to the front and rear shocks, you're basically tire limited. Rear gear notwithstanding, the tallest widest tire with a tread compound you can live with stuffed in the wheel well will probably be the next step for improvement. I believe guys have had 28"-29" tall slicks fitted without cutting anything up. I don't recall if they were DOT. It just might not be in the current tire.
Perhaps there's more to be had with further work on the LCAs and torque arm too.

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

you dump 400+ HP into a TQ arm..ya have fun with that...

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

will do

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Hmm i put 1400 thru my trq arm no issues, but at the tbrake release its only seeing instant shock of about 550 whp with ramped power quickly getting into 750-800whp range thru the 60-80 ft range and full tilt by 100 ft

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

we won't talk about the 3000+ hp drag radial guys using a torque arm

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

My torque arm doesn't care one iota. It is the tires that are doing all the complaining.

skinny z

I had always thought that the torque arm was a reasonable suspension system. Certainly from a handling perspective, the 3rd gens can hold there own and has been dutifully noted above, the drag racers are no slouch either. It's all about tuning and tires.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

the torque arm is FAR superior to say, SSM bars...

skinny z

SSM bars notwithstanding....is the short arm, like the Jegsters, better than the stock length arm? All other things being equal (strength) and providing both arms have adjustment where they meet the front attachment point.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

depends on the power level and how it's being applied. with the auto into the 10's, we didn't have any problems with the jegster arm. once i went to the manual we started having issues. torque arm length is 50% of the IC location determination so it's a big deal, but it's all about tuning what works best for the car. my experience is that for a manual transmission car, you want a longer torque arm

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

seen alot of broken TQ arms... over the years..
ill stick with ladder bars / lift bars... as I wanted things to last as I got rid of my TQ arms 25 years ago..
some guys like the TQ. some guys don't and go a different direction.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

they're just like anything. build them to suit the power/application and they last.

F-Body Int

I'm surprised reading this thread as I'm new to the forum here. Not one person here has mentioned shock tuning.

Having double adjustable front and rear shocks will allow you to tune compression and rebound at all four corners. By simply installing this, you effectively tune the rate of weight transfer.

Personally, I would start with double adjustable shocks before you start changing suspension geometry or buying new tires. I know more about 2nd gen Camaro/Firebird parts but I'm sure you 3rd gen guys have plenty of choices.

Look into something like a Viking adjustable rear (pro-touring) shock and start tuning to how you like it on the street...
http://www.hawksmotorsports.com/shoc...-touring-rear/

UMI also makes a coil-over conversion kit if wanting to step up to that kind of spring...
http://vi-king.info/media/wysiwyg/F_...ersion_UMI.pdf

You could also give Dave a call at Pro-Touring F-Body. He's very knowledgeable on vehicle suspension in general and specializes in 1st-2nd gen. I think he might be interested in stepping up to the 3rd-4th gen market...
http://www.pro-touringf-body.com/index.html

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

not talked about..but its all part of racing
a lot of us have done what we can...

67Blast

Because NHRA outlawed the PSI screw nlowers and all turbochargers, in the eariy 1980's.

F-Body Int

Looks like a nice setup you have there articZ. This is overkill for many but very badass!

For anyone looking at this picture, this is the type of shock you need to tune compression and rebound. Having a shock like this will allow you to have a "street" tune like this thread basically refers to, but will also allow you to turn the ***** for best performance at an autocross or drag race event. It doesn't have to be a full coil-over on an aftermarket rear end like what ArticZ has. By simply swapping to double adjustable shocks on even a stock rear end, you can tune your shock valving as weight, traction, power, or suspension gets modified.


I apologize for not getting into sway bars, spring rates, horsepower, tire brands or geometry modifications. I'm not a 3rd gen guru but I will tell you that shocks are a huge in this high performance street thread equation. There are many with 1st and 2nd gen Camaro/Firebird that are performing very well at autocross and drag racing with the old style leaf springs.


Good luck on the rest of this build!

skinny z

The problem with tuning shock settings is that it's either /or when you're out with the car.
If the OP is out for a nice country tour and the urge comes to accelerate....what then? Pull over and adjust the shocks for max traction?
This happens to us at the strip. Even WITH double adjustables at all four corners, to dig in there (and some of the valving is nearly impossible to adjust) to tweak for the track and then go back in and readjust for the trip home gets really old. I'm talking about reasonably fast street cars that are driven to the track with the wife, a boxed lunch and a modicum of tools. It's enough just to bolt on the slicks sometimes.
My take on it? Once you reach a horsepower threshold in a multi-purpose vehicle, you have to give up something to get something. Prep your chassis for the drag strip and live with it on the street or vice-versa.

F-Body Int

Installing non-adjustable shocks means your simply putting in something and hoping for the best. If that's what you or the OP wants, then I don't have to say anything else.

Even if the OP's car is more street oriented but wants something with the ability to tune, then adjustable shocks are the way to go. This means you can dial in the car as weight balance, power, traction and driving style changes. A shock that is able to tune simply will be a benefit as things get modified...if you're willing to tune.

My take on it...I believe that if any of us on this forum are modifying cars, then there shouldn't be an issue reaching under the car and turning a few *****.

skinny z

True enough.
What I was attempting to explain was that once you're on the road, pulling over and changing the valving on your shocks just isn't in the cards even for the real diehard. At the track, absolutely. Although with the Chevelle, the adjustment ***** are buried up inside the A-arm and getting to them is nearly impossible. You'd think QA1 would come up with a better plan. On second thought, I've heard that they have. I haven't seen it in person but I believe they have an app based arrangement where you can change the valving via a setting on your phone. Pricey though...but pretty slick. THAT would do it for our OP.

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

set it up. it up so it works and you leave it.. ya don't have to keep messing with it..

skinny z

Problem with that is: what works well for your street cruiser/corner carver (can you say freeway on ramp?) doesn't cut it at the drag strip. And vice-versa. A dual purpose vehicle means adjustment.
But more to the point of this thread is that the OP has complained of limited traction on the street but doesn't want to give up the handling part of his ride. That's why the shock tuning thing doesn't cut it in this case.
At least that's my interpretation of the situation.

skinny z

That doesn't explain why supercharged dragsters/funny cars are the fastest accelerating internal combustion engine powered vehicles on the planet.
You'd think with what's at stake, if turbos were going to build more power in a 500 CID platform, then it would have been done.
With thanks to QwkTrip for the loan of his thread.

F-Body Int

If reaching in and turning a few ***** is too hard for the OP or anyone else that wants to comment, then don't buy them. I just pointed a big factor that hasn't been discussed until page 3 of this thread. I'm sure we can all go back and forth about our personal views or the time we spend on the street or track but again, if you are unable to handle turning a couple ***** behind a wheel then go for nonadjustable shocks. Nonadjustable shocks are simply a guessing game for your car unless you go for a shock company that has an assortment of prevalved shocks and you know what you're looking for.

I don't own a third gen like 90% of people on this forum but I'm trying to help you guys out on this thread. ViKing and QA1 seem to be the main competitors for double adjustable shocks on 3rd-4th gen cars. Here's a quick cut from ViKing shock's owners manual. Hopefully this makes things simple...



TUNING AND ADJUSTMENT INSTRUCTIONS
Vehicles used on the street, drag cars, and road racers will all have different needs in terms of shock valving. However, it does not stop there. Driver style / capability, road / track conditions, vehicle type (car vs. pickup, etc.), vehicle weight, horsepower, tires, etc. all create different needs in terms of shock valving. That is the beauty of a double adjustable shock.Your Viking shocks have a total of 19 positions (18 clicks plus a zero position) of adjustment per ****, for a total of 361 different valvings. Compression and rebound are independently controlled on the Viking shocks. The “C” **** adjusts compression, while the “R” **** adjusts rebound. Every Viking shock is tested on a dynamometer prior to shipment to ensure that it is functioning properly. Manually moving a shock is not an accurate testing method for ensuring that shocks are functioning properly. Position zero is the softest setting and is found by turning the **** counterclockwise until the positive stop is located. Position 18 is the stiffest setting. Only very light force is needed to adjust the *****; do not ever force the **** past its intended stop as doing so will damage the shock.

Recommended baseline points for adjusting your Viking shocks are as follows:
In general, for good handling and excellent ride quality, the rebound should be set roughly 2 to 6 clicks
higher than the compression. For example, a good starting point for the street is 2 clicks on compression
and 6 clicks on rebound on the front and 1 click on compression and 3 clicks on rebound on the rear.
Ride Quality/Street
Front:
1 - 4 compression; 4 - 8 rebound
Rear:
0 - 3 compression; 2 - 5 rebound


The handling and autocross settings will vary depending on spring rate. If extra firm springs are utilized,
the compression setting might be set softer and the rebound setting firmer.
Handling
Front:
8 - 10 compression; 10 - 14 rebound
Rear:
6 - 8 compression; 8 - 12 rebound
Autocross
Front:
10 - 14 compression; 14 - 18 rebound
Rear:
6 - 10 compression; 10- 14 rebound


Drag Racing (<600 HP)
Front:
12 - 18 compression; 0 - 4 rebound
Rear:
0 - 4 compression; 4 - 10 rebound

Drag Racing (600-900 HP)
Front:
12 - 18 compression; 2 - 8 rebound
Rear:
2 - 6 compression; 6 - 12 rebound

Drag Racing (>900 HP)
Front:
12 - 18 compression; 4 – 12 rebound
Rear:
4 - 8 compression; 12 - 18 rebound

skinny z

[QUOTE=F-Body Int;6068153]If reaching in and turning a few ***** is too hard for the OP or anyone else that wants to comment, then don't buy them. I just pointed a big factor that hasn't been discussed until page 3 of this thread. I'm sure we can all go back and forth about our personal views or the time we spend on the street or track but again, if you are unable to handle turning a couple ***** behind a wheel then go for nonadjustable shocks.

I think you're missing the point here.
First, I understand the advantages of adjustable shocks. We have more than a few in our fleet.
The point is and I'll illustrate it with an example.
You're out for a tour in your finely tuned road racing double adjustable shocked ride. Then, you're challenged to a little stop light grand prix. Hang on a second, I gotta pull over and dial in my suspension.
See what I mean?
Now you have an excellent point regarding the immense tuning aid that the shocks represent. Also the fact that it hadn't been mentioned.
The Chevelle that I spoke of, which is a documented 10.9x second every day driver (650 HP of 454 LSX will get that for you), will absolutely not hook on the strip, let alone the track unless the QA1s are dialed in for a drag race launch. There is no way on heaven or earth, that with the street tune, we'll pull over and (inconveniently in this case) twist a few ***** so the car has better bite for a blast or three.
That's all I'm saying and I'll leave it there.

F-Body Int

[QUOTE=skinny z;6068156]
Trust me, I don't think you don't know the advantages. I agree with you that it's hard to have the best of both worlds at all times.

I noticed before you said yours are hard to access. I guess that could be an issue for some. I'm installing a coil-over kit from Pro-Touring F-Body on my '79 T/A as we speak. An industry exclusive design that the PTFB kit has is flipping the shock over so the adjustment ***** are easy access from the top. 2nd gen F-Body also has outboard mounted rear shocks so those are very easy access as well.

To each their own but I think we can agree that double adjustable shocks are a great tuning device.

t-top89

iTrader: (3)

Low gearing and taller tire is another trick for traction. I run 30" tall tires and steeper gear ratio.

skinny z

[QUOTE=F-Body Int;6068391]Absolutely. They're on the list for my current 3rd gen too.

skinny z

What have you done to fit a 30" tall tire?

67Blast

Dear sir, I was trying to keep my realy simple but since you cannot take the simple way out here you go.
Around 1984 , PSI introduced a 2.1L twin screw supercharger. At a mere 16 lbs. of boost it produced roughly 400hp.., more than the best 16-71 roots type blower. It was compaired at the time, to a Littlefield straight rotor design. NHRA,quickly banned use of the PSI by T.F. &T.F.F.C., for competition.
Im fairly certain the following year, they banned the use of turbochargers, in all Top classes.
This was suposidly after the fact that Kenny Dulwiter made almost 6hp. per ci. with twin turbos on gasoline.
Now you want to know about the 500ci., deal. Well, since I used to crew chief on a Top Alcohol Dragster, your in luck.
"The power is in the fuel."
Nitromethane." CH3NO2".
Not to be confused with Nitrous Oxide. "N2O".
85 percent Nitromethane and 15 percent Alcohol, makes a liquid which is in no simple terms makes a bomb, which just needs a fuse.
Top Fuel cars burn upwards of 8 GALLONS of this stuff in 4 seconds. To burn that much fuel you need 2- 44 Amp. Magnetoes. 18 injectors and so forth.
Your daily street car puts out roughly .5 amp.
Then you need 2 Enderle cam driven fuel pumps and approximately an inch fuel line or -16. 3-5 high speeds, etc,etc,etc.
Those engines run a 4.310 bore and 4.30 stroke. And turn upwards of 9000 rpms., with a splined billet crankshaft. Its been said the crank will twist half an inch from the front to back at the hit.
Valve spring pressures go beyond 1000lbs. open.
Their clutch drum is more secret than my wifes bra size.
I know this stuff because my good friend who used to run T.A.D., now runs Pro Mod., with a PSI twin screw . His car runs mid 3's at the eigth on straight alcohol.
A mere 15 percent Nitro has put him over 210 mph. in the eigth, with a Stage IV Brad Anderson 526", Hemi.
He runs consistant 191mph., passes on straight Alcohol.
19 mph, increase is alot of power at that level. Especially with just 15 percent.
The biggest problem with other cars outrunning a top fuel car is simply money.
Its a money game. Always has been.
I would love to see a Fuel car run a big set of twins today. It would probably literally,FLY.

skinny z

I familiar with the fuel recipe and the machinery that make the top fuel cars go. I've been a student of the sport for a very long time. Way back when Garlits was famous for brewing his Wynn's Jammer Juice. Engines were in the front back of the dragsters then....Keep in mind too that the NHRA also banned nitromethane for a while.
That said, from the latest look through the NHRA rule book, turbochargers are permitted. I believe that applies to the top pro ranks as well. I could be wrong though.
So, if that's is indeed the case, why is no one running them? My guess is, despite the excellent numbers they are capable of, it's that they aren't competitive enough to be considered. Perhaps turbos and nitromethane don't play nice. Considering that a top fuelers exhaust is so hot that it sublimates the hydrogen from the water vapour that it's the air, maybe a turbo would go through a meltdown trying to make 8000 HP out of 500 cubic inches. That's 16 HP per cubic inch by the way but you can't compare Duttweilers very impressive results with that of a nitro powered engine. It wouldn't be fair.
As for the money game, that's what it is. More money generally wins. You want to go eight rounds for the win in a funny car, you better have eight engines.

And no need to keep it simple, I a smrt guy. I also saw some stuff on you tube.

skinny z

Then he said after looking through the interweb for something in support of his statement, he came across this article.

http://www.dragzine.com/news/what-mi...uel-dragsters/

Unfortunately it's inconclusive but the history is there. Just abandoned for whatever reason.

skinny z

And according to the aforementioned interweb,

"The 2007 NHRA rule book says that for Top Fuel dragsters, the forced induction engine is restricted to Roots-type supercharger, rotor helix angle not to exceed that of standard 71-series GM-type rotor. Turbocharger and/or centrifugal supercharger are prohibited."

So that settles that. That being why don't top fuel cars run turbos?

Thanks again QwkTrip.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I'd like to hear what the experienced racers think....

This is what my tread looks like and has looked like from the day it came home from the dyno. I thought it was normal but maybe it is not? I think it is called 'graining', or 'feathering', and is caused by spinning out, and it can actually make traction worse.

So what's going on here? Good or bad? Can I refresh the tire somehow?

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Been driving the car after lowering the rear control arms and I do have a some more traction now. Still spinning all the way through 2nd gear but the difference is the car does giddy up and go. It is getting quicker for sure.

Problem now is the rear dances around more too. Ended up fishtailing into the other lane today. It always went real straight with the control arms in the next higher hole. I'm not happy with the handling now. Is this something you can simply tune with weight jacks?

plum92_camaro

Tuning the rear is a little tricky. I'm figuring it out myself now. I finally added my 250#weight jacks in the rear and went down to a19mm bar with koni yellows. Front suspension has been completely redone in 2013.

Stiffening the rear up like I did created more oversteer than I could handle. After research, talking to Unbalanced Engineering, and Ground Control I learned that my issue was my roll center was to high for my spring/sway bar set up. I ordered a Unbalanced Engineering Panhard lowering kit but haven't installed it yet. But Ground Control suggested disconnecting the rear sway bar, I cut a half second on the autoX track.

Unfortunately, the track sold and closed so I won't get to compare times anymore.

I also discussed lower control arms with them and UMI. Level or only slightly angled down towards the axle is best for handling.

skinny z

____________________________________________________________________

What's the date stamp on your tires?

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Tires are less than a year old.

From the info I can find, I'm pretty sure the feathering is from wheel spin while driving. Rumor is the tire surface can be restored with 3 or 4 burnouts at the track in the burn out box. I'm going to the drag strip sometime soon so maybe by the end of that night the tires will be cleaned up again.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

The Nitto NT05R tires were murdered on the dyno today. They threw chunks everywhere behind the car, on the car, inside the car. The tires are nearly wasted and I'm not buying another set again. Goodbye Nitto, and Hello Mickey Thompson

skinny z

Saw this on your other thread.
Although you said the tires were only a year old, I'm still curious to know what the date stamp is. Tires can sit on the shelf for years before someone buys them.
The Mickey Thompson ET Street S/S is about as good as it gets for street radial.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I left a review on the Nitto website and they changed my ratings to satisfied and would recommend to others before posting on their website. What a scam.