Secrets of traction on the street
05-30-2016, 08:01 PM
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Secrets of traction on the street
Took my car for first drive. Tires break traction pretty easy up to 65 mph and beyond. I only say 65 mph because that is the fastest I have gone so far, and I haven't even matted the throttle yet.
So what are the secrets of the trade to getting some more traction? This is purely a fun street car so I have it sprung pretty tight, both for handling and to maintain adequate ground clearance.
* Nitto NT05R (275/40-R17)
* Hawks Sinister (UMI) shortened torque arm
* Axle end of rear control arms set just a bit lower than frame mount (middle position on Founders drop brackets)
* Ground Control weight jacks, 800 lb/in front, 200 lb/in rear
* Bilstein Yellow struts up front, and Koni red adjustable in rear
Basically, the car is sprung tight enough that the nose doesn't lift, or at least it doesn't seem that way from the driver seat. Car doesn't seem to squat either, but that is probably the torque arm doing what it is supposed to do. I am also getting the idea these drag radials pretty much perform like a good summer tire until you heat them up with a good burnout. I don't get to prep with burnouts when just driving around.
Thanks for the help.
So what are the secrets of the trade to getting some more traction? This is purely a fun street car so I have it sprung pretty tight, both for handling and to maintain adequate ground clearance.
* Nitto NT05R (275/40-R17)
* Hawks Sinister (UMI) shortened torque arm
* Axle end of rear control arms set just a bit lower than frame mount (middle position on Founders drop brackets)
* Ground Control weight jacks, 800 lb/in front, 200 lb/in rear
* Bilstein Yellow struts up front, and Koni red adjustable in rear
Basically, the car is sprung tight enough that the nose doesn't lift, or at least it doesn't seem that way from the driver seat. Car doesn't seem to squat either, but that is probably the torque arm doing what it is supposed to do. I am also getting the idea these drag radials pretty much perform like a good summer tire until you heat them up with a good burnout. I don't get to prep with burnouts when just driving around.
Thanks for the help.
05-30-2016, 09:01 PM
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Re: Secrets of traction on the street
How old are the tires. How much mileage is on them. Even though they may have lots of rubber on them, they may be dried out enough to say they're worn out. Typical performance tire like the Nitto, Drag Radial etc have about a 2500 mile life expectancy. They're not designed to be driven on the street. They're only made for racing when a rule specifies that you must use a DOT tire.
There is no perfect solution to get traction on the street. The street is dirty and unprepped. Even with sticky tires, you could probably spin the tires.
I'd also recommend a 15" rim to give you more sidewall to wrinkle.
There is no perfect solution to get traction on the street. The street is dirty and unprepped. Even with sticky tires, you could probably spin the tires.
I'd also recommend a 15" rim to give you more sidewall to wrinkle.
05-30-2016, 09:17 PM
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Re: Secrets of traction on the street
Tires are brand new. Maybe 2 months old. Only about 200 miles, mostly on the dyno.
05-30-2016, 09:34 PM
#4
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Re: Secrets of traction on the street
maybe some moroso front trick springs, 90/10 drag struts, unlooen or remove front sway bar, loose front weight, put battery in the back, etc.
i agree, its hard to hook on the street.
i agree, its hard to hook on the street.
05-31-2016, 08:34 PM
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Re: Secrets of traction on the street
I see by wear pattern that I am not even close to using the whole tire. I think I need to drop air pressure some.
Last edited by QwkTrip; 05-31-2016 at 08:38 PM.
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06-01-2016, 07:32 AM
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Re: Secrets of traction on the street
I have driven the car only 4 times so I hadn't checked air pressure yet. More concerned about just getting home without breaking down. Tires were at 40 psi. 
I'll play with the air pressure. Ought to help quite a bit.
I'll play with the air pressure. Ought to help quite a bit.
06-01-2016, 05:55 PM
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Re: Secrets of traction on the street
Lowered the air pressure some and it already helped a lot. Downside is the car seems a lot slower without all the tire spinning drama. It feels like it is missing 100 Hp somewhere. I just didn't get this engine set up right so I will have to change things up over winter. Still fun to drive though!
06-01-2016, 06:57 PM
#10
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Re: Secrets of traction on the street
Wastegate duty cycle vs vehicle speed (boost per gear function) is handy, apexi-Avcr does this sort of thing, good for 500rwhp+ situations on street/sleeper tires.
You shouldnt be having traction problems if you are 300~ horses N/A and 3800lbs with a proper tire. I've seen 2800lbs and 400rwhp hooked just fine with a 5-speed on a good tire, nitto something probably. I am not good with tires but cars that I tune have that sort of tire and it seems to do just fine.
You shouldnt be having traction problems if you are 300~ horses N/A and 3800lbs with a proper tire. I've seen 2800lbs and 400rwhp hooked just fine with a 5-speed on a good tire, nitto something probably. I am not good with tires but cars that I tune have that sort of tire and it seems to do just fine.
Last edited by Kingtal0n; 06-01-2016 at 09:12 PM.
06-01-2016, 08:08 PM
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Re: Secrets of traction on the street
Wow, talk about being lost in conversation....
06-01-2016, 10:30 PM
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Re: Secrets of traction on the street
Nice ninja edit on your post. 
I'm north of those numbers in both torque and horsepower.
I think Orr89RocZ nailed the problem. I will keep playing with tire pressure.
I'm north of those numbers in both torque and horsepower.I think Orr89RocZ nailed the problem. I will keep playing with tire pressure.
06-02-2016, 07:47 AM
#13
Re: Secrets of traction on the street
i'm guessing it'll need to be loosened up some if it's sprung pretty tight. i don't see this car pulling street wheelies, but you should be able to get it to where it won't spin quite so easily. a bias ply is what i typically recommend for clutch cars, but i doubt you'd like the way it drove.
06-02-2016, 10:06 AM
#14
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Re: Secrets of traction on the street
Lol, glad you are north. 400rwhp and 2800lbs is 2.0L territory. I assume you are 3600lbs+ so to touch this you would need 480rwhp IMO. From there, even 500rwhp is do-able with just a high quality tire in general. The general point here is that tire selection is having the biggest influence up until this point, lets say 450-500rwhp max at 2800lbs, so for you should be no problem with 480-530rwhp at 3800lbs based solely on tire selection alone, without ever touching any gadgets or adjusting tire pressure at all.
Once you are set at that point with zero intervention(and if not, find out why and fix it first before moving on), then you start playing with gadjets, adjusting pressure/supension, you might even start cutting and welding. As I pointed out, this is 500rwhp+ solutions only. From there, how far north you are depends on which solution is most appropriate. A drive-by-wire(DBW) solution is a little more technical in nature but solves all of them if the goal is simply traction control, whereas gaining traction as in having more than a minute ago, is a completely different aspect that has to do with the rate of change of the tire being gradual and fulfilling to the driver and finding the best way to get it as high as possible through time. That can include recording/adjusting tire pressure on the fly based on sensor input and expensive(currently) tech, or simply standing there measuring it with a gun and making one adjustment at a time physically (still the cheapest way?) but it can also be moving shocks around to facilitate the cars physical stance during the 0-80mph space of time transferring more energy to the ground. This is another issue: traction from 0-whatever or traction from an 80mph roll or 120mph roll. Equipped 850rwhp supras do not seem to have any trouble finding traction at 60 or 80mph, but some trucks with 320bhp can do it. Again tire selection and vehicle weight are having a powerful influence, but also gearing and drivetrain weight as well. You must imagine that the supra is using lighter parts where possible, but seriously between 850-1200rwhp how light do you think they can make it? So $$ has the final say of course, and ultimate goal of the car. The 2000rwhp vette with twin rear mount is using a numerically low rear gear to help find traction. That is always the last option because it does reduce the final leverage of the engine to the ground, it must be mentioned because similar to how DBW can be used to hold throttle shut(reduce torque at the tire), gearing does significantly atler the torque at the tire while also allowing the engine to make more torque before the tire is losing traction. Gearing can be the first thing you set, or the last thing. If you already know the top speed of the vehicle and also never plan to change transmissions, you can do a quick calc and find the "best" gearing for that top speed. If you have a specific range of RPM you will always have the car in (say it spends most of its time from 3000-5000rpm on a track all day) you can dial that gear in instead.
Once you are set at that point with zero intervention(and if not, find out why and fix it first before moving on), then you start playing with gadjets, adjusting pressure/supension, you might even start cutting and welding. As I pointed out, this is 500rwhp+ solutions only. From there, how far north you are depends on which solution is most appropriate. A drive-by-wire(DBW) solution is a little more technical in nature but solves all of them if the goal is simply traction control, whereas gaining traction as in having more than a minute ago, is a completely different aspect that has to do with the rate of change of the tire being gradual and fulfilling to the driver and finding the best way to get it as high as possible through time. That can include recording/adjusting tire pressure on the fly based on sensor input and expensive(currently) tech, or simply standing there measuring it with a gun and making one adjustment at a time physically (still the cheapest way?) but it can also be moving shocks around to facilitate the cars physical stance during the 0-80mph space of time transferring more energy to the ground. This is another issue: traction from 0-whatever or traction from an 80mph roll or 120mph roll. Equipped 850rwhp supras do not seem to have any trouble finding traction at 60 or 80mph, but some trucks with 320bhp can do it. Again tire selection and vehicle weight are having a powerful influence, but also gearing and drivetrain weight as well. You must imagine that the supra is using lighter parts where possible, but seriously between 850-1200rwhp how light do you think they can make it? So $$ has the final say of course, and ultimate goal of the car. The 2000rwhp vette with twin rear mount is using a numerically low rear gear to help find traction. That is always the last option because it does reduce the final leverage of the engine to the ground, it must be mentioned because similar to how DBW can be used to hold throttle shut(reduce torque at the tire), gearing does significantly atler the torque at the tire while also allowing the engine to make more torque before the tire is losing traction. Gearing can be the first thing you set, or the last thing. If you already know the top speed of the vehicle and also never plan to change transmissions, you can do a quick calc and find the "best" gearing for that top speed. If you have a specific range of RPM you will always have the car in (say it spends most of its time from 3000-5000rpm on a track all day) you can dial that gear in instead.
Last edited by Kingtal0n; 06-02-2016 at 10:20 AM.
06-02-2016, 05:41 PM
#16
Re: Secrets of traction on the street
The number one thing to get any clutch car to hook on the street is to understand the rotating assembly's "flywheel effect", and how that can create an instantaneous spike of engine torque + stored flywheel energy that can easily break your tires loose. This is the basic difference between spinning tires or breaking parts when launching from a standing start, or being able to launch the same car from a 30mph 1st gear roll without any wheelspin or broken parts at all. In either case the engine is making the exact same power/torque, the difference is stored flywheel energy exiting the rotating assy, as it loses rpm during the standing start.
If you can control your clutch pedal release in such a way that you do not lose rpm during launch, your car will be quicker/faster and much less likely to break parts.
If you can control your clutch pedal release in such a way that you do not lose rpm during launch, your car will be quicker/faster and much less likely to break parts.
06-02-2016, 07:08 PM
#17
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Re: Secrets of traction on the street
06-14-2016, 02:15 PM
#18
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Re: Secrets of traction on the street
Let me break this here down for you
In other words (I.O.W.), if you have 400whp and weight 3800lbs, you are below 2.0L territory. Meaning, a 2.0L engine and 2800lb vehicle is capable of 400rwhp, about 120mph trap, 11 seconds with 2.2 60' is easy, using mostly stock engine parts, whether Nissan, mitsu, toyot, etc... all are capable of this rudimentary, entry level output. So my "glad you are north" is in response to his previous statement about being "above" 400whp, which I am happy for, since 400whp and 2800lbs is 2.0L territory, so having 400rwhp and 5.XL is just sad, pathetic, especially coupled to an extra 1000lbs (3800lbs camaro)
IOW, to match a 2.0L engine with 2800lbs, you will want at least 480rwhp @ 3500~ lbs just to start with, just to even compare "touch" the 2.0L territory (to COMPETE with those lighter cars with 400rwhp you will want 480+ to start)
IOW, All you really need for "traction on the street" at this level of power (500rwhp + 3500lbs) is a good tire. Spend $600 on a rear pair and you should be good to go, even with the worst suspension imaginable, the #1 thing to adjust (assuming NO BUDGET) is the tire compound. I have tuned many vehicles in the 2800lbs region with 450rwhp that have excellent traction (NO ISSUES) with just a good tire purchase by the owner, so I do not see why 500rwhp and 3500lbs cant do the same (with a good tire).
Again, focusing on the tire selection up to 500rwhp as the #1 most important aspect of "traction on the street" this just re-affirms what I said above.
IOW, once you hit 500rwhp with a good tire, especially at that heavy weight (if a 2800lb vehicle can hook it then a 3500lb should not have an issue), if you still have traction problems, there is possibly an issue that needs fixing in the chassis. It could be a design issue, or a placement issue (strut location or control arm positioning) or improperly lowered vehicle issue, etc... IOW there are factors that some people do not realize will influence traction related to their chassis. You should be able to hook 500rwhp and 3000+ lbs easily with a good tire, and if not, find out why your chassis is resisting this scenario. Sometimes cutting and welding new locations for brackets/mounting is necessary, it depends on the vehicle.
So now we look at 500+ horsepower solutions, where tire alone is inadequate. Traction CONTROL is different than gaining traction. We can LIMIT tire spin by reducing power output- thereby making the vehicle faster because it is not spinning it's tires. This is of course, power limiting, which is the last resort. Rate of change of tire speed is a direct influence on traction control, think of a large turbocharger which spools harsh and suddenly, blowing the tires off for example. This is a fast rate of change of tire speed, making traction difficult. So one of the "Secrets" is gradually applying the power, so that the rate of change of tire speed is as fast as possible, but not so fast as to "blow" through the tire. This can be done with DBW control, or Wastegate duty cycle vs vehicle speed, as classic examples.
These are examples of how to attack the traction problems. You can record and adjust the tire pressure, as one example. This can be done automatically if you have the computer hardware to back it up (some computers can adjust and monitor tire pressure). I am not suggesting you do this; I am only pointing out, that there are many technological advances which make it possible to improve traction. The cheap way is to record it manually (write down: 22psi. Drive the car. Record behavior with stand-alone. Do it again for 25psi, 28psi, etc... and find the best performance). This record/test can be done with any part you wish (change the shocks, record behavior. change the wheels, record behavior. Change the diff fluid, record behavior. Change the X record the Y).
Deciding whether you want traction from 0-whatever or from a 60mph roll is also distinctly different. A vehicle might load the rear tire (weight transfer character) at 0mph launch and have great traction, but have an issue at a 60mph roll. An example is given: 850rwhp supra is a heavy vehicle without much traction problems at highway speeds; whereas, a deeply geared SBC truck might be able to spin its tires at the same speed with less than half of the engine output, and a poor tire. These examples show that our drivetrain and decisions have a great influence on how the tire behaves. They are classic examples, that is all.
more of the above post just reminding us
This is more examples of other cars out there with far more power and low weight that have good street character/traction. 2000rwhp in a corvette is hooking just fine because the gearing and tire, for the most part, keep the leverage to the ground down. The vette with that kind of power runs the 1/2 mile or full mile for example. I also show by example how DBW can be used to "reduce the rate of change of the tire" allowing it to stay hooked while gradually applying full power (think back to the big turbo example I gave). And last, the gearing at the rear is often dialed to the vehicles anticipated max speed through a trap (in a drag racing applicaiton) whereas, in a street application, or goal is not some final "top speed max rpm gear" but rather, traction with a possibly unknown top speed (how fast can you go before your gut tells you to stop, on a public highway (this is a street traction thread, after all)).
Lol, glad you are north. 400rwhp and 2800lbs is 2.0L territory.
I assume you are 3600lbs+ so to touch this you would need 480rwhp IMO.
From there, even 500rwhp is do-able with just a high quality tire in general.
The general point here is that tire selection is having the biggest influence up until this point, lets say 450-500rwhp max at 2800lbs, so for you should be no problem with 480-530rwhp at 3800lbs based solely on tire selection alone, without ever touching any gadgets or adjusting tire pressure at all.
Once you are set at that point with zero intervention(and if not, find out why and fix it first before moving on), then you start playing with gadjets, adjusting pressure/supension, you might even start cutting and welding.
As I pointed out, this is 500rwhp+ solutions only. From there, how far north you are depends on which solution is most appropriate. A drive-by-wire(DBW) solution is a little more technical in nature but solves all of them if the goal is simply traction control, whereas gaining traction as in having more than a minute ago, is a completely different aspect that has to do with the rate of change of the tire being gradual and fulfilling to the driver and finding the best way to get it as high as possible through time.
That can include recording/adjusting tire pressure on the fly based on sensor input and expensive(currently) tech, or simply standing there measuring it with a gun and making one adjustment at a time physically (still the cheapest way?) but it can also be moving shocks around to facilitate the cars physical stance during the 0-80mph space of time transferring more energy to the ground.
This is another issue: traction from 0-whatever or traction from an 80mph roll or 120mph roll. Equipped 850rwhp supras do not seem to have any trouble finding traction at 60 or 80mph, but some trucks with 320bhp can do it.
Again tire selection and vehicle weight are having a powerful influence, but also gearing and drivetrain weight as well.
You must imagine that the supra is using lighter parts where possible, but seriously between 850-1200rwhp how light do you think they can make it? So $$ has the final say of course, and ultimate goal of the car. The 2000rwhp vette with twin rear mount is using a numerically low rear gear to help find traction. That is always the last option because it does reduce the final leverage of the engine to the ground, it must be mentioned because similar to how DBW can be used to hold throttle shut(reduce torque at the tire), gearing does significantly atler the torque at the tire while also allowing the engine to make more torque before the tire is losing traction. Gearing can be the first thing you set, or the last thing. If you already know the top speed of the vehicle and also never plan to change transmissions, you can do a quick calc and find the "best" gearing for that top speed. If you have a specific range of RPM you will always have the car in (say it spends most of its time from 3000-5000rpm on a track all day) you can dial that gear in instead.
06-14-2016, 02:28 PM
#20
Supreme Member
Re: Secrets of traction on the street
Ah. This is simply a benchmark. A place to start. If you have less power and more weight, than what you are doing? Wasting time. A typical 5.3L "off the shelf" (junkyard) $800 truck LSx can support over 500bhp for 50,000 miles (from 100k to 150k, used truck engines). there is no reason to work below this category, unless restricted by experience/tools/time/budget. Those engines are often installed into 2800lb vehicles (i.e. 240sx) making this the "class to beat on the street". It obliterates the 2.0 category by a fair margin with a cast piston, which is why the 2.0 is the "baseline, starting point". If you want to run with the wolves, you need to think like a wolf.
cars are alot of fun, I make posts with a scientific query but my main goal is to inspire and educate, sorry if it sounded like I was pushing the 2.0, I wasn't. I only meant to show that there are 2.0L engines out there with 180,000 miles (reliable) making 380rwhp daily drivers which achieve 30mpg in 2800lb vehicles, making it the baseline, MINIMUM. If you can't beat the minimum, well, that sucks. I am all about budget, $900 longblocks making 500+rwhp for 5+ years in daily drivers. Setting the bar, so to speak.
I believe this thread has the reliability info (fwiw)
http://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-ind...lity-list.html
cars are alot of fun, I make posts with a scientific query but my main goal is to inspire and educate, sorry if it sounded like I was pushing the 2.0, I wasn't. I only meant to show that there are 2.0L engines out there with 180,000 miles (reliable) making 380rwhp daily drivers which achieve 30mpg in 2800lb vehicles, making it the baseline, MINIMUM. If you can't beat the minimum, well, that sucks. I am all about budget, $900 longblocks making 500+rwhp for 5+ years in daily drivers. Setting the bar, so to speak.
I believe this thread has the reliability info (fwiw)
http://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-ind...lity-list.html
Last edited by Kingtal0n; 06-14-2016 at 02:42 PM.
06-14-2016, 04:17 PM
#23
Supreme Member
Re: Secrets of traction on the street
Now, we 'love' our thirdgens, but to turn your back on every other platform simply because it isn't a V8 or a thirdgen is silly. You have to look at what is available, compare cost/power/reliability, and find the best deal, if you are on a budget and truly seeking the best performance / dollar that will last. Some people don't mind less power/slower cars because they are 'in love' with their body style,,, not because they are ignorant. I am a fan of the 1969 camaro chassis and would drive one, even if it had a 6-cylinder. Love and Looks aside, strictly from performance point of view, the OEM engines set the bar: 2.0 @ 400bhp, 5.3 @ 560bhp, both cast piston longblocks with a great track record of reliability, fit into 2800lb vehicles, daily drivers, economical, quiet engines. The Nissan 2.0 is actually almost twice as expensive, and weighs more than the 5.3L!
Last edited by Kingtal0n; 06-14-2016 at 04:20 PM.
06-14-2016, 05:27 PM
#24
Re: Secrets of traction on the street
Not that suspension type, geometry, weight distributon, instant center, wheel base, torque out put and power curve, aero forces, or any of the many other items matters at all in traction
Nah we'll just use a 2.0 2800 lb import unrelated chassis as our comparison
Nah we'll just use a 2.0 2800 lb import unrelated chassis as our comparison
06-14-2016, 10:19 PM
#25
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Re: Secrets of traction on the street
I'm just having some fun with a hobby. If you want to make this into a competition then you're talking to the wrong guy.
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06-14-2016, 11:41 PM
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Re: Secrets of traction on the street
where does a 325hp 2900lbs s/c 3.4l with 7th injector tacoma s-runner pickup with a kill list a mile long fit in to this "fast car" conversation ?
just curious hp to weight is everything
just curious hp to weight is everything
06-15-2016, 12:05 PM
#28
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Re: Secrets of traction on the street
yes we get a little off topic because of the questions. my original post simply says to buy a good tire if you are below 500whp or fix your car, and then buy a good tire. And then I explore a couple other options for 500+ like DBW and wastegate duty vs vehicle speed for traction. All the other aspects of chassis traction are specific to YOUR chassis; people can read this that own trucks, cars of all shapes and sizes, and the first thing you should be "upgrading" is the tire (repeating the above).
Anyone is welcome to compare and contrast different platforms; I am not saying one is any better than another and make reference that is was common to drive something slower if you simply enjoy the body style of the vehicle. Only that we need to KNOW the enemy, be AWARE of what is available in the price bracket of say, 10k cars. What can you go into craigslist and pick up for 10k right now, that runs 12's, goes 200k, weighs whatever, and you enjoy it, its easy to work on, the value does not depreciate (its will worth 10k 5 years later) and so forth. There ARE cars like that, if you are a good mechanic you can keep almost anything reliable with basic OEM parts, the trick is finding a vehicle with OEM parts that support 12 or 11 second street cars with the same reliability of a typical civic (for those of us with ONLY 1 vehicle, on a SERIOUS budget i.e. college students) this is my target audience. You folks with jobs and forged pistons need not apply, you have bigger fish to fry, money to throw at machine shops and the mistakes they make that you find 12,000 miles later. A college student can not afford those mistakes. He/She needs a reliable vehicle, and also wants 500bhp, so this means we need a reliable OEM engine capable of supporting that (for example). You can set the bar wherever you want;
Since we need SOME starting point, I picked the best I could find for example purposes with which I also have some experience: I brought up 2.0L and 5.3L engines, I have found so far to be the best $/hp ratio of OEM longblock configurations (again: only own one car, 'reliable' OEM blocks). Nothing built, or opened engines, are being mentioned or compared, because machine work is a myriad variable that most of us cannot count on (we do not own machine shops). This is to help novices who are currently thinking something like this: "Hmm, I need a $500 camshaft and a $400 set of lifters, and a $1400 set of heads, and a $200 gasket set, to hit my goal of 420rwhp... and if I want 500+ I need a $500 forged piston and $2000 of machine work etc..." when for a fraction of that they could buy a complete engine capable of holding 20-30% more power without touching a single bolt (5.3L truck engines). It does NOT mean we all have to go out and buy 5.3's, because as you probably are thinking now, there is much more to it than simply buying an engine and having it sit on the floor in front of you. Indeed you may need to drop $5000 into a turbocharger config, an $3000 into the transmission/differential before an $800 longblock will produce those kind of numbers reliably in a fun car. But the same could be said for a built engine; the truth is that often built engines have trouble getting to 50k, let alone 200k, for many reasons that range from cleanliness, assembly, to excessive valvetrain wear from "stiff" parts that are unnecessary or uncalled for in a daily driver application (STILL talking about those who only own 1 vehicle and need to daily it). You don't want a high lift camshaft and stiff spring in a daily driver unless you are a pro and understand the risks, for example.
Now, Lets make a baseline to discuss or compare. Here are my 2 examples again, but this time lets talk about them in stock form and then "upgrade" them.
2.0L all original is 250-280rwhp capable for 200k without changing a single bolt. Engines are $2000.
5.XL all original is 320~rwhp capable for 200k "" Engines are $1000.
If we throw a little money at these,
2.0 with $2000 invested is 380rwhp (turbo) 5-speed (clutch included) this is the max output for the OEM piston on this engine, reliably. IMO of course (experience)
5.XL with $1000 invested is 400rwhp (still N/A) (using automatic and OEM converter) this engine still has about 175~hp of headroom to be reliable for perhaps 50k~.
With the 5.XL coming out on top as far as reliability and cost, both are very drivable and reliable if you get clean engines to start with that are well maintained.
Its just a baseline. Throw your own examples in there. There is headroom for mistakes and options. We are just trying to blow out any "terrible options" like an LT1 reverse cooling flow engine or an inline 6-cylinder RB series engine, both which have trouble in the hands of a novice and may cause more problems than they are worth, possibly costing the owners extra money for no good reason. Novelty blower style engines also tend to fit into this category, and every single naturally aspirated 4-cylinder ever produced should be avoided.
Lets add another favorite
3.0L all original twins is 350~rwhp capable for 200k, engines are $2500
3.0L with $2000 invested is 500rwhp capable for 200k. (automatic w/ shift kit, single turbo)
You can start throwing out the pros and cons (3.0 is the heaviest, 5.X is usually the lightest, etc) but we don't need to go that far. This is just an educational review, not an actual build list. The prices should be obviously VERY flimsy and you can get all kinds of deals on used parts to change these numbers around. The key again is simply to be AWARE of what others are doing (the 'enemy') and being aware of what is available. All of these options assume you are a good mechanic; nothing will last with a high output without a close monitoring and care for the quality of combustion, as cast pistons tend to be fragile and all of the examples given use a fragile cast aluminum slug.
I would love to go on but it becomes a book. Let me review briefly the "theory" of using OEM engines in daily drivers at higher output.
1. Traditional thinking might be this: "build the engine, build the trans, build the rear, beef everything else that turns up to handle the job, and put a turbocharger on it"
2. If we reverse that almost completely: "build the trans, build the turbo hardware, beef up rotating parts, then use a mostly stock (cheap) engine and have a spare sitting on the floor just in case"
The reason 2. works well is because we do not need to use the turbo, even if it is installed. In other words, you can install a turbo onto a vehicle properly, spend $5k in hardware, weld everything up nice and clean, and then hold the wastegate open so that there is no boost, while you work on the rest of the vehicle. Another way to see it is this: Think of the turbo as part of the chassis. It stays with the car. The engines come and go, heck we can change a motor each week if we want. But the turbo setup is a constant. You should be thinking the same way about the transmission. This point of view is important because this week we may only have an engine capable of holding 300whp whereas next week the new engine might support 600bhp, and it is important that when we lay the groundwork/plumbing for peak potential (turbo config) that we take into account all possible power plants, and then simply adjust the engines output with the dial (boost controller / wastegate).
While we are here, let me share a great example: http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showth...=1#post1859077)
This car is an ideal, where fabrication is #1. The plumbing is artwork, as it should be. This is where you want to put the $$$, into reliable plumbing and drivetrain components. The engine, is just a throw away.
If you compare cost, you will see that sometimes (depends on the engine in question) buying two or three OEM longblocks is still cheaper than a single built, forged internal engine, and you will still want the drivetrain built no matter what. No, a stock engine will not support the same peak power, but for many of us 500bhp is still alot more than we have ever had or imagined attaining to begin with (college student budgets). This option opens the 500bhp bracket to those of us who do not think that an OEM engine is capable (they are stuck trying to "forge" their engine, everyone told them that they need a forged piston first, then having problems with it because of machine work or assembly/cleanliness. These are NOVICE issues). We are 'skipping' the machine work, the engine is purchased and installed in a single day instead of waiting 4 months for the machine shop to do the job incorrectly, and we have a spare on the floor for our first mistake. I also meant to emphasis the vehicle weight as the single most important other factor: shave 1000lbs off the vehicle can be similar to gaining some 50-80 horsepower (I do not know the exact conversion, or if there even is one since area under the curve and gearing are per application basis).
Anyone is welcome to compare and contrast different platforms; I am not saying one is any better than another and make reference that is was common to drive something slower if you simply enjoy the body style of the vehicle. Only that we need to KNOW the enemy, be AWARE of what is available in the price bracket of say, 10k cars. What can you go into craigslist and pick up for 10k right now, that runs 12's, goes 200k, weighs whatever, and you enjoy it, its easy to work on, the value does not depreciate (its will worth 10k 5 years later) and so forth. There ARE cars like that, if you are a good mechanic you can keep almost anything reliable with basic OEM parts, the trick is finding a vehicle with OEM parts that support 12 or 11 second street cars with the same reliability of a typical civic (for those of us with ONLY 1 vehicle, on a SERIOUS budget i.e. college students) this is my target audience. You folks with jobs and forged pistons need not apply, you have bigger fish to fry, money to throw at machine shops and the mistakes they make that you find 12,000 miles later. A college student can not afford those mistakes. He/She needs a reliable vehicle, and also wants 500bhp, so this means we need a reliable OEM engine capable of supporting that (for example). You can set the bar wherever you want;
Since we need SOME starting point, I picked the best I could find for example purposes with which I also have some experience: I brought up 2.0L and 5.3L engines, I have found so far to be the best $/hp ratio of OEM longblock configurations (again: only own one car, 'reliable' OEM blocks). Nothing built, or opened engines, are being mentioned or compared, because machine work is a myriad variable that most of us cannot count on (we do not own machine shops). This is to help novices who are currently thinking something like this: "Hmm, I need a $500 camshaft and a $400 set of lifters, and a $1400 set of heads, and a $200 gasket set, to hit my goal of 420rwhp... and if I want 500+ I need a $500 forged piston and $2000 of machine work etc..." when for a fraction of that they could buy a complete engine capable of holding 20-30% more power without touching a single bolt (5.3L truck engines). It does NOT mean we all have to go out and buy 5.3's, because as you probably are thinking now, there is much more to it than simply buying an engine and having it sit on the floor in front of you. Indeed you may need to drop $5000 into a turbocharger config, an $3000 into the transmission/differential before an $800 longblock will produce those kind of numbers reliably in a fun car. But the same could be said for a built engine; the truth is that often built engines have trouble getting to 50k, let alone 200k, for many reasons that range from cleanliness, assembly, to excessive valvetrain wear from "stiff" parts that are unnecessary or uncalled for in a daily driver application (STILL talking about those who only own 1 vehicle and need to daily it). You don't want a high lift camshaft and stiff spring in a daily driver unless you are a pro and understand the risks, for example.
Now, Lets make a baseline to discuss or compare. Here are my 2 examples again, but this time lets talk about them in stock form and then "upgrade" them.
2.0L all original is 250-280rwhp capable for 200k without changing a single bolt. Engines are $2000.
5.XL all original is 320~rwhp capable for 200k "" Engines are $1000.
If we throw a little money at these,
2.0 with $2000 invested is 380rwhp (turbo) 5-speed (clutch included) this is the max output for the OEM piston on this engine, reliably. IMO of course (experience)
5.XL with $1000 invested is 400rwhp (still N/A) (using automatic and OEM converter) this engine still has about 175~hp of headroom to be reliable for perhaps 50k~.
With the 5.XL coming out on top as far as reliability and cost, both are very drivable and reliable if you get clean engines to start with that are well maintained.
Its just a baseline. Throw your own examples in there. There is headroom for mistakes and options. We are just trying to blow out any "terrible options" like an LT1 reverse cooling flow engine or an inline 6-cylinder RB series engine, both which have trouble in the hands of a novice and may cause more problems than they are worth, possibly costing the owners extra money for no good reason. Novelty blower style engines also tend to fit into this category, and every single naturally aspirated 4-cylinder ever produced should be avoided.
Lets add another favorite
3.0L all original twins is 350~rwhp capable for 200k, engines are $2500
3.0L with $2000 invested is 500rwhp capable for 200k. (automatic w/ shift kit, single turbo)
You can start throwing out the pros and cons (3.0 is the heaviest, 5.X is usually the lightest, etc) but we don't need to go that far. This is just an educational review, not an actual build list. The prices should be obviously VERY flimsy and you can get all kinds of deals on used parts to change these numbers around. The key again is simply to be AWARE of what others are doing (the 'enemy') and being aware of what is available. All of these options assume you are a good mechanic; nothing will last with a high output without a close monitoring and care for the quality of combustion, as cast pistons tend to be fragile and all of the examples given use a fragile cast aluminum slug.
I would love to go on but it becomes a book. Let me review briefly the "theory" of using OEM engines in daily drivers at higher output.
1. Traditional thinking might be this: "build the engine, build the trans, build the rear, beef everything else that turns up to handle the job, and put a turbocharger on it"
2. If we reverse that almost completely: "build the trans, build the turbo hardware, beef up rotating parts, then use a mostly stock (cheap) engine and have a spare sitting on the floor just in case"
The reason 2. works well is because we do not need to use the turbo, even if it is installed. In other words, you can install a turbo onto a vehicle properly, spend $5k in hardware, weld everything up nice and clean, and then hold the wastegate open so that there is no boost, while you work on the rest of the vehicle. Another way to see it is this: Think of the turbo as part of the chassis. It stays with the car. The engines come and go, heck we can change a motor each week if we want. But the turbo setup is a constant. You should be thinking the same way about the transmission. This point of view is important because this week we may only have an engine capable of holding 300whp whereas next week the new engine might support 600bhp, and it is important that when we lay the groundwork/plumbing for peak potential (turbo config) that we take into account all possible power plants, and then simply adjust the engines output with the dial (boost controller / wastegate).
While we are here, let me share a great example: http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showth...=1#post1859077)
This car is an ideal, where fabrication is #1. The plumbing is artwork, as it should be. This is where you want to put the $$$, into reliable plumbing and drivetrain components. The engine, is just a throw away.
If you compare cost, you will see that sometimes (depends on the engine in question) buying two or three OEM longblocks is still cheaper than a single built, forged internal engine, and you will still want the drivetrain built no matter what. No, a stock engine will not support the same peak power, but for many of us 500bhp is still alot more than we have ever had or imagined attaining to begin with (college student budgets). This option opens the 500bhp bracket to those of us who do not think that an OEM engine is capable (they are stuck trying to "forge" their engine, everyone told them that they need a forged piston first, then having problems with it because of machine work or assembly/cleanliness. These are NOVICE issues). We are 'skipping' the machine work, the engine is purchased and installed in a single day instead of waiting 4 months for the machine shop to do the job incorrectly, and we have a spare on the floor for our first mistake. I also meant to emphasis the vehicle weight as the single most important other factor: shave 1000lbs off the vehicle can be similar to gaining some 50-80 horsepower (I do not know the exact conversion, or if there even is one since area under the curve and gearing are per application basis).
Last edited by Kingtal0n; 06-15-2016 at 12:29 PM.
06-15-2016, 12:48 PM
#29
Supreme Member
Re: Secrets of traction on the street
yea,...WTF,...throw your third gen in the trash. buy a 2.0 ***** and all your traction problems will go away.
LMAO!
somebody is out in left field playing ball by themself.
LMAO!
somebody is out in left field playing ball by themself.
06-15-2016, 12:55 PM
#30
Supreme Member
Re: Secrets of traction on the street
I am not sure where you saw that. The 2.0 is often not a great option. They are expensive to start with, almost antique (1989-2002) often come with high mileage, and really only good for 3000lb and lighter vehicles. The output is impressive for its size, but thats about it. The only reason its on my list is because you can go out right now and BUY A COMPLETE CAR with one already installed and running; and it will perform exactly as I have described, and it is reliable if kept within this range. Those the key features: reliability, cost, ease of maintenance, are good for novices, and like anything else if you care about it and limit the abuse, it will last a long time. It has nothing to do with traction (I covered traction in my original posts) it was just for the sake of comparison.
Last edited by Kingtal0n; 06-15-2016 at 12:58 PM.
06-15-2016, 01:11 PM
#32
Senior Member
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Car: 1979 Malibu
Engine: Blown LSx
Transmission: T56 Magnum
Axle/Gears: 9"/wavetrac/35's/3.70
Re: Secrets of traction on the street
yes we get a little off topic because of the questions. my original post simply says to buy a good tire if you are below 500whp or fix your car, and then buy a good tire. And then I explore a couple other options for 500+ like DBW and wastegate duty vs vehicle speed for traction. All the other aspects of chassis traction are specific to YOUR chassis; people can read this that own trucks, cars of all shapes and sizes, and the first thing you should be "upgrading" is the tire (repeating the above).
Anyone is welcome to compare and contrast different platforms; I am not saying one is any better than another and make reference that is was common to drive something slower if you simply enjoy the body style of the vehicle. Only that we need to KNOW the enemy, be AWARE of what is available in the price bracket of say, 10k cars. What can you go into craigslist and pick up for 10k right now, that runs 12's, goes 200k, weighs whatever, and you enjoy it, its easy to work on, the value does not depreciate (its will worth 10k 5 years later) and so forth. There ARE cars like that, if you are a good mechanic you can keep almost anything reliable with basic OEM parts, the trick is finding a vehicle with OEM parts that support 12 or 11 second street cars with the same reliability of a typical civic (for those of us with ONLY 1 vehicle, on a SERIOUS budget i.e. college students) this is my target audience. You folks with jobs and forged pistons need not apply, you have bigger fish to fry, money to throw at machine shops and the mistakes they make that you find 12,000 miles later. A college student can not afford those mistakes. He/She needs a reliable vehicle, and also wants 500bhp, so this means we need a reliable OEM engine capable of supporting that (for example). You can set the bar wherever you want;
Since we need SOME starting point, I picked the best I could find for example purposes with which I also have some experience: I brought up 2.0L and 5.3L engines, I have found so far to be the best $/hp ratio of OEM longblock configurations (again: only own one car, 'reliable' OEM blocks). Nothing built, or opened engines, are being mentioned or compared, because machine work is a myriad variable that most of us cannot count on (we do not own machine shops). This is to help novices who are currently thinking something like this: "Hmm, I need a $500 camshaft and a $400 set of lifters, and a $1400 set of heads, and a $200 gasket set, to hit my goal of 420rwhp... and if I want 500+ I need a $500 forged piston and $2000 of machine work etc..." when for a fraction of that they could buy a complete engine capable of holding 20-30% more power without touching a single bolt (5.3L truck engines). It does NOT mean we all have to go out and buy 5.3's, because as you probably are thinking now, there is much more to it than simply buying an engine and having it sit on the floor in front of you. Indeed you may need to drop $5000 into a turbocharger config, an $3000 into the transmission/differential before an $800 longblock will produce those kind of numbers reliably in a fun car. But the same could be said for a built engine; the truth is that often built engines have trouble getting to 50k, let alone 200k, for many reasons that range from cleanliness, assembly, to excessive valvetrain wear from "stiff" parts that are unnecessary or uncalled for in a daily driver application (STILL talking about those who only own 1 vehicle and need to daily it). You don't want a high lift camshaft and stiff spring in a daily driver unless you are a pro and understand the risks, for example.
Now, Lets make a baseline to discuss or compare. Here are my 2 examples again, but this time lets talk about them in stock form and then "upgrade" them.
2.0L all original is 250-280rwhp capable for 200k without changing a single bolt. Engines are $2000.
5.XL all original is 320~rwhp capable for 200k "" Engines are $1000.
If we throw a little money at these,
2.0 with $2000 invested is 380rwhp (turbo) 5-speed (clutch included) this is the max output for the OEM piston on this engine, reliably. IMO of course (experience)
5.XL with $1000 invested is 400rwhp (still N/A) (using automatic and OEM converter) this engine still has about 175~hp of headroom to be reliable for perhaps 50k~.
With the 5.XL coming out on top as far as reliability and cost, both are very drivable and reliable if you get clean engines to start with that are well maintained.
Its just a baseline. Throw your own examples in there. There is headroom for mistakes and options. We are just trying to blow out any "terrible options" like an LT1 reverse cooling flow engine or an inline 6-cylinder RB series engine, both which have trouble in the hands of a novice and may cause more problems than they are worth, possibly costing the owners extra money for no good reason. Novelty blower style engines also tend to fit into this category, and every single naturally aspirated 4-cylinder ever produced should be avoided.
Lets add another favorite
3.0L all original twins is 350~rwhp capable for 200k, engines are $2500
3.0L with $2000 invested is 500rwhp capable for 200k. (automatic w/ shift kit, single turbo)
You can start throwing out the pros and cons (3.0 is the heaviest, 5.X is usually the lightest, etc) but we don't need to go that far. This is just an educational review, not an actual build list. The prices should be obviously VERY flimsy and you can get all kinds of deals on used parts to change these numbers around. The key again is simply to be AWARE of what others are doing (the 'enemy') and being aware of what is available. All of these options assume you are a good mechanic; nothing will last with a high output without a close monitoring and care for the quality of combustion, as cast pistons tend to be fragile and all of the examples given use a fragile cast aluminum slug.
I would love to go on but it becomes a book. Let me review briefly the "theory" of using OEM engines in daily drivers at higher output.
1. Traditional thinking might be this: "build the engine, build the trans, build the rear, beef everything else that turns up to handle the job, and put a turbocharger on it"
2. If we reverse that almost completely: "build the trans, build the turbo hardware, beef up rotating parts, then use a mostly stock (cheap) engine and have a spare sitting on the floor just in case"
The reason 2. works well is because we do not need to use the turbo, even if it is installed. In other words, you can install a turbo onto a vehicle properly, spend $5k in hardware, weld everything up nice and clean, and then hold the wastegate open so that there is no boost, while you work on the rest of the vehicle. Another way to see it is this: Think of the turbo as part of the chassis. It stays with the car. The engines come and go, heck we can change a motor each week if we want. But the turbo setup is a constant. You should be thinking the same way about the transmission. This point of view is important because this week we may only have an engine capable of holding 300whp whereas next week the new engine might support 600bhp, and it is important that when we lay the groundwork/plumbing for peak potential (turbo config) that we take into account all possible power plants, and then simply adjust the engines output with the dial (boost controller / wastegate).
While we are here, let me share a great example: http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showth...=1#post1859077)
This car is an ideal, where fabrication is #1. The plumbing is artwork, as it should be. This is where you want to put the $$$, into reliable plumbing and drivetrain components. The engine, is just a throw away.
If you compare cost, you will see that sometimes (depends on the engine in question) buying two or three OEM longblocks is still cheaper than a single built, forged internal engine, and you will still want the drivetrain built no matter what. No, a stock engine will not support the same peak power, but for many of us 500bhp is still alot more than we have ever had or imagined attaining to begin with (college student budgets). This option opens the 500bhp bracket to those of us who do not think that an OEM engine is capable (they are stuck trying to "forge" their engine, everyone told them that they need a forged piston first, then having problems with it because of machine work or assembly/cleanliness. These are NOVICE issues). We are 'skipping' the machine work, the engine is purchased and installed in a single day instead of waiting 4 months for the machine shop to do the job incorrectly, and we have a spare on the floor for our first mistake. I also meant to emphasis the vehicle weight as the single most important other factor: shave 1000lbs off the vehicle can be similar to gaining some 50-80 horsepower (I do not know the exact conversion, or if there even is one since area under the curve and gearing are per application basis).
Anyone is welcome to compare and contrast different platforms; I am not saying one is any better than another and make reference that is was common to drive something slower if you simply enjoy the body style of the vehicle. Only that we need to KNOW the enemy, be AWARE of what is available in the price bracket of say, 10k cars. What can you go into craigslist and pick up for 10k right now, that runs 12's, goes 200k, weighs whatever, and you enjoy it, its easy to work on, the value does not depreciate (its will worth 10k 5 years later) and so forth. There ARE cars like that, if you are a good mechanic you can keep almost anything reliable with basic OEM parts, the trick is finding a vehicle with OEM parts that support 12 or 11 second street cars with the same reliability of a typical civic (for those of us with ONLY 1 vehicle, on a SERIOUS budget i.e. college students) this is my target audience. You folks with jobs and forged pistons need not apply, you have bigger fish to fry, money to throw at machine shops and the mistakes they make that you find 12,000 miles later. A college student can not afford those mistakes. He/She needs a reliable vehicle, and also wants 500bhp, so this means we need a reliable OEM engine capable of supporting that (for example). You can set the bar wherever you want;
Since we need SOME starting point, I picked the best I could find for example purposes with which I also have some experience: I brought up 2.0L and 5.3L engines, I have found so far to be the best $/hp ratio of OEM longblock configurations (again: only own one car, 'reliable' OEM blocks). Nothing built, or opened engines, are being mentioned or compared, because machine work is a myriad variable that most of us cannot count on (we do not own machine shops). This is to help novices who are currently thinking something like this: "Hmm, I need a $500 camshaft and a $400 set of lifters, and a $1400 set of heads, and a $200 gasket set, to hit my goal of 420rwhp... and if I want 500+ I need a $500 forged piston and $2000 of machine work etc..." when for a fraction of that they could buy a complete engine capable of holding 20-30% more power without touching a single bolt (5.3L truck engines). It does NOT mean we all have to go out and buy 5.3's, because as you probably are thinking now, there is much more to it than simply buying an engine and having it sit on the floor in front of you. Indeed you may need to drop $5000 into a turbocharger config, an $3000 into the transmission/differential before an $800 longblock will produce those kind of numbers reliably in a fun car. But the same could be said for a built engine; the truth is that often built engines have trouble getting to 50k, let alone 200k, for many reasons that range from cleanliness, assembly, to excessive valvetrain wear from "stiff" parts that are unnecessary or uncalled for in a daily driver application (STILL talking about those who only own 1 vehicle and need to daily it). You don't want a high lift camshaft and stiff spring in a daily driver unless you are a pro and understand the risks, for example.
Now, Lets make a baseline to discuss or compare. Here are my 2 examples again, but this time lets talk about them in stock form and then "upgrade" them.
2.0L all original is 250-280rwhp capable for 200k without changing a single bolt. Engines are $2000.
5.XL all original is 320~rwhp capable for 200k "" Engines are $1000.
If we throw a little money at these,
2.0 with $2000 invested is 380rwhp (turbo) 5-speed (clutch included) this is the max output for the OEM piston on this engine, reliably. IMO of course (experience)
5.XL with $1000 invested is 400rwhp (still N/A) (using automatic and OEM converter) this engine still has about 175~hp of headroom to be reliable for perhaps 50k~.
With the 5.XL coming out on top as far as reliability and cost, both are very drivable and reliable if you get clean engines to start with that are well maintained.
Its just a baseline. Throw your own examples in there. There is headroom for mistakes and options. We are just trying to blow out any "terrible options" like an LT1 reverse cooling flow engine or an inline 6-cylinder RB series engine, both which have trouble in the hands of a novice and may cause more problems than they are worth, possibly costing the owners extra money for no good reason. Novelty blower style engines also tend to fit into this category, and every single naturally aspirated 4-cylinder ever produced should be avoided.
Lets add another favorite
3.0L all original twins is 350~rwhp capable for 200k, engines are $2500
3.0L with $2000 invested is 500rwhp capable for 200k. (automatic w/ shift kit, single turbo)
You can start throwing out the pros and cons (3.0 is the heaviest, 5.X is usually the lightest, etc) but we don't need to go that far. This is just an educational review, not an actual build list. The prices should be obviously VERY flimsy and you can get all kinds of deals on used parts to change these numbers around. The key again is simply to be AWARE of what others are doing (the 'enemy') and being aware of what is available. All of these options assume you are a good mechanic; nothing will last with a high output without a close monitoring and care for the quality of combustion, as cast pistons tend to be fragile and all of the examples given use a fragile cast aluminum slug.
I would love to go on but it becomes a book. Let me review briefly the "theory" of using OEM engines in daily drivers at higher output.
1. Traditional thinking might be this: "build the engine, build the trans, build the rear, beef everything else that turns up to handle the job, and put a turbocharger on it"
2. If we reverse that almost completely: "build the trans, build the turbo hardware, beef up rotating parts, then use a mostly stock (cheap) engine and have a spare sitting on the floor just in case"
The reason 2. works well is because we do not need to use the turbo, even if it is installed. In other words, you can install a turbo onto a vehicle properly, spend $5k in hardware, weld everything up nice and clean, and then hold the wastegate open so that there is no boost, while you work on the rest of the vehicle. Another way to see it is this: Think of the turbo as part of the chassis. It stays with the car. The engines come and go, heck we can change a motor each week if we want. But the turbo setup is a constant. You should be thinking the same way about the transmission. This point of view is important because this week we may only have an engine capable of holding 300whp whereas next week the new engine might support 600bhp, and it is important that when we lay the groundwork/plumbing for peak potential (turbo config) that we take into account all possible power plants, and then simply adjust the engines output with the dial (boost controller / wastegate).
While we are here, let me share a great example: http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showth...=1#post1859077)
This car is an ideal, where fabrication is #1. The plumbing is artwork, as it should be. This is where you want to put the $$$, into reliable plumbing and drivetrain components. The engine, is just a throw away.
If you compare cost, you will see that sometimes (depends on the engine in question) buying two or three OEM longblocks is still cheaper than a single built, forged internal engine, and you will still want the drivetrain built no matter what. No, a stock engine will not support the same peak power, but for many of us 500bhp is still alot more than we have ever had or imagined attaining to begin with (college student budgets). This option opens the 500bhp bracket to those of us who do not think that an OEM engine is capable (they are stuck trying to "forge" their engine, everyone told them that they need a forged piston first, then having problems with it because of machine work or assembly/cleanliness. These are NOVICE issues). We are 'skipping' the machine work, the engine is purchased and installed in a single day instead of waiting 4 months for the machine shop to do the job incorrectly, and we have a spare on the floor for our first mistake. I also meant to emphasis the vehicle weight as the single most important other factor: shave 1000lbs off the vehicle can be similar to gaining some 50-80 horsepower (I do not know the exact conversion, or if there even is one since area under the curve and gearing are per application basis).
06-15-2016, 01:43 PM
#33
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Re: Secrets of traction on the street
Piston random questions: Which piston, what is the clearance and material of the piston, at what temperature will the piston seize in the bore? How low is the ring? What is the ring made of? How was it finished or machine, what is the process to its installation?
Tire random questions: Which tire? how was it made? What is the material of the tire? What temperature range are you operating in? How much water is present, where is the water during the test?
Piston random questions related to the rate of change of the tire:
What is the area of the combustion pressure, what is Brake Mean Effective Pressure? What is the rate of change of boost pressure? What is the displacement volume of the piston for one revolution(also find the CID of engine)? And what is the rate of change of RPM for a given set of initial conditions? And finally, most importantly, the gear ratios which multiply the engine torque, which have nothing to do piston or tire, but ultimately have the final say for any given set of initial conditions. Think of what a 1:1 rear gear would do to any car. The engine would be working outside of its operating range, in general, whether we discuss 2.0 or 6.0 engines, a rear gear 1:1 probably will not be fun to drive. YET it would solve almost every traction problem. As with the 2000rwhp vette example competing in 1/2 or full mile events (who is using a numerically low number in the rear gear, but of course it isn't 1:1) So what we are doing is connecting the pistons(engines) rate of change, with the rate of change of tire, through gearing. We can modify any of these to adjust for traction. Assuming power output is unlimited, you have to focus on the tire first. Get the tire as good as you can get it. This is #1. Once you find the limit of the tire/surface, you look at the piston next. Max the piston now (max power, unlimited). Then, adjust gearing for max speed desired, So Now, you are looking back at the piston again. What RPM range does this piston work in (RPM of engine). try:5000-8000 only? You are going to cook the engine unless it is properly dressed. Still looking at the piston a little more now, I want to use a larger piston(displacement) so I can minimize RPM which will help preserve the engine, this is why it is so important to have max unlimited torque(if we had unlimited torque and rpm, we would NOT need to look at the piston for reliability concerns, and it would not appear here at all ) , this way we can hold engine RPM very low through gearing with larger displacement engines and lighter vehicles . You see, the gearing/transmission is holding the engine "hostage" within a set range for specific speeds, and the heavier the vehicle is the more hostage situations tend to arise. So adjusting gearing to minimize that against the spread of a transmission means I am still looking at the piston for how much torque I can make, hopefully unlimited. Only once I realize that my torque potential has a cap, a max, and max rpm(remember some engines will not want to stay long periods at high rpm, there are factors which influence piston reliability and have weight when discussing engine power output), together which in the OEM engine example is dictated by our perceived reliable number for a fragile aluminum casting (personally I feel that 480/480 is more than enough in a 2800lb vehicle with a pro-built automatics 4L60E to ask from an OEM 5.XL LSx) can we adjust for most advantageous gearing(3.4X is my favorite number for lightweight 18" forgings and typical tires). Remember: we took care of our tire first. Now we have the best tire, the most "piston" torque/power, the best gearing.
At this point, there are still plenty of places to go, but it is important to realize these three come first, get set for a duration. Now we can look at the chassis, cut and weld if necessary, the application will dictate (launch control, transbrake, drag applications are different than on the street cars but potentially could still be used if funds is unlimited). You can dial back power using wasgateduty vs engine speed controller (apexi-avcr) if it comes to that or DBW solutions. The less in the tire and chassis, the more of these "tricks" you will need to use probably, and in some cases it may even just be lowering the rate of change of boost pressure(engine torque rate of change, not a total power limit, but rather a slower rate of increase in force).
Last edited by Kingtal0n; 06-15-2016 at 01:59 PM.
06-15-2016, 01:52 PM
#34
06-15-2016, 11:47 PM
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Re: Secrets of traction on the street
Apparently that slower run with traction was an isolated incident. Probably had a lot to due with high underhood temp (IAT) at the time and hauling around a rather large person in the passenger seat.
Got the tires down to 28 psi right now and I'm still able to spin at any legal speed. I know I can go a little lower pressure (and will) but wondering if there is a practical limit I should observe for tire safety knowing I might drive for hours at a time? I don't want a tire blow out due to overheating from low pressure.
Got the tires down to 28 psi right now and I'm still able to spin at any legal speed. I know I can go a little lower pressure (and will) but wondering if there is a practical limit I should observe for tire safety knowing I might drive for hours at a time? I don't want a tire blow out due to overheating from low pressure.
06-16-2016, 09:59 AM
#38
Supreme Member
Re: Secrets of traction on the street
At my level (poor student) it is all about horsepower/dollars vs reliability/profit. So I tend to drive a vehicle which will generate me a profit, while having a good hp/$ ratio, and it is most reliable. cannot afford things like tires, suspension parts, and especially silly things like forged pistons and floor mats. I spend my cash on oil changes and paper towels.
Last edited by Kingtal0n; 06-16-2016 at 10:03 AM.
06-16-2016, 10:55 AM
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Re: Secrets of traction on the street
Kingtal0n, do not PM me again.
06-16-2016, 10:59 AM
#41
Re: Secrets of traction on the street
Apparently that slower run with traction was an isolated incident. Probably had a lot to due with high underhood temp (IAT) at the time and hauling around a rather large person in the passenger seat.
Got the tires down to 28 psi right now and I'm still able to spin at any legal speed. I know I can go a little lower pressure (and will) but wondering if there is a practical limit I should observe for tire safety knowing I might drive for hours at a time? I don't want a tire blow out due to overheating from low pressure.
Got the tires down to 28 psi right now and I'm still able to spin at any legal speed. I know I can go a little lower pressure (and will) but wondering if there is a practical limit I should observe for tire safety knowing I might drive for hours at a time? I don't want a tire blow out due to overheating from low pressure.
What gear are you in that still spins?
edit: have you tried different shock settings in both front and rear? Lower the lca mounting position to lowest hole? The short torque arm isnt helping some as it should hit tires harder than stock length
06-16-2016, 11:04 AM
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Re: Secrets of traction on the street
Thanks for the feedback. Noobie on drag radials, you know. 
1st and 2nd gear. Based on results this morning, seems I have 2nd gear tied to the road pretty well now. I'll keep experimenting with tire pressure and see what 1st gear likes. Definitely waaaaay better than it was before.
1st and 2nd gear. Based on results this morning, seems I have 2nd gear tied to the road pretty well now. I'll keep experimenting with tire pressure and see what 1st gear likes. Definitely waaaaay better than it was before.
06-16-2016, 11:25 AM
#44
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Re: Secrets of traction on the street
If past experience is anything, and this relates strictly to our 3rd gens with a more or less stock type suspension (shocks and struts notwithstanding), once a certain HP level is reached, and 400rwhp is certain, traction on the street more or less evaporates. That's with just about any DOT tire. JMHO.
06-16-2016, 11:43 AM
#45
Re: Secrets of traction on the street
Its gearing limited to a point. First gear with final drive is 9.92 ratio. 2nd is 6.64. Thats a big difference in itself. Thats a lot of wheel torque magnification. Hooking with ratios that high gets very difficult as power goes up lol
You have to accept some limits. Roll thru first get into 2-3rd before really digging into throttle.
I have hooked 1100 whp with a final ratio of 3.42, on a 275/60/15 drag radial. Cant hook half that power in first with a ratio of 8.48
You have to accept some limits. Roll thru first get into 2-3rd before really digging into throttle.
I have hooked 1100 whp with a final ratio of 3.42, on a 275/60/15 drag radial. Cant hook half that power in first with a ratio of 8.48
06-16-2016, 01:09 PM
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What a twit. 
06-16-2016, 01:32 PM
#48
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Re: Secrets of traction on the street
i think the best hooking tire for street use is a bias ply, wrinkle wall. like sportsman pro's. i've never had good luck with drag radials on the street, but i've not tried some of the bias/wrinkle wall types. to make things harder, i thought i saw your running 17's?
but used these on an old s-10 build and a 2nd gen camaro with great results. will be putting a set on my third gen eventually.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mtt-6548
but used these on an old s-10 build and a 2nd gen camaro with great results. will be putting a set on my third gen eventually.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mtt-6548
06-16-2016, 01:35 PM
#49
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Re: Secrets of traction on the street
All engines should have a dial to adjust their manifold pressure. It is one form of control system engineering I have come to appreciate. Without it, you are at the whim of the environment, wherever you are that day.
2. forgive me for placing 15 years of fine tuning experience in a variety of applications at your disposal for free, privately via PM, after noticing you having trouble with your ECU in your car (you posted problems about it in your other thread) It wont happen again I assure you.
06-16-2016, 03:09 PM
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