B4Ctom1

why not like this, like prochargers, using a big piece of rubber tube clamped on both ends?

Damon

I coulda sworn that GMHTP used a 4" tube to hook up to a stock TPI throttle body and found that simply by mashing it down sorta oval-shaped it closely matched the size and shape of the stock TB. Might make fitting a rubber collar between the two easier with less distortion of the rubber trying to go from a circle to an oval in just a few inches. They mighta been starting with a 3" pipe, however. I just don't recall.

Kenwood

iTrader: (1)

Thats essentially what I was saying BUT ithout a lip rolled or flared into it under high boost you will be blowing tubes off....Ask Guido...I watched him blow tubes off quite a few times...

Guido

Hey I dont blow off any tubes! Sick people!

Here is something I did to keep my tube from coming off the TB

MrDude_1

why, what a nice hump hose you got there.

Kingtal0n

thats very interesting guido... How many Lbs are you running?

I DROVE it today. WEEEE. I noticed the turbos are louder than my exhaust, and all I have is 2 downpipes dumping before the tranny... whew.

Didnt put it into boost, still only a 1bar map. Just wanted to make sure the leaks were zeroed out and the welds were mostly airtight.

For now on the TB I have a hose clamp and some duct tape holding it on there, I know, ghetto X 2 but its all I have right now and I needed to drive it. Valve cover is leaking again... sigh*

the blow offs leak at idle, I guess that means the turbos supply more air than the engine needs. I hit the gas and the blow off valves shut instantly though. After about 20 minutes of driving around like a normal (mostly) person, the master cylinder was hot but not too hot to touch. it only seems to get hot right at the tip though, the rest stays pretty cool. brake lines are cool too, i have a huge heat shield made from the old gas tank heat shield in there.

Ill get some video and host it up with someone so you all can hear these things, they REALLY sound neat. Just driving around the block I got like five people to just stare with open mouths...

B4Ctom1

I will keep that in mind, I have an accel TB and I think I may simply have the inlet elbow welded to the removable Accel 1000 cfm TB flange to avoid that.

Kingtal0n

All I can say is wow for today. Im going out of town, so i figured I would screw around with it just a little before I left miami. I put in the 2Bar map, and loaded a base map supplied by holley and enriched it a bunch. Everything above 1BAR was nearly static, Have not put in the 42Lb injectors yet.

Well, I drove it around the block, once. wow.
I turned a corner, and let it shift to 2nd gear. I was doing about 10MPH. I gave it a little gas, watching my narrowband to make sure it stayed green. It did. I gave it a little more, also watching for boost on the fuel map. it got up near 100KPA, but no boost. the turbos were really whistling though.

So i gave it just a little more gas... about 1/2 throttle, and suddenly I get like 4PSI of boost on the fuel map and the tire (single) starts to spin so i let off real quick. I check the data log and the O2's stayed rich the whole time. So i continue around the block, and turn onto a sort of main road. there was no one there, so i gave it about 3/4 throttle, slowly, from a 2nd gear 15~MPH roll.

Not sure exactly what happened next, but the car went sideways and I wound up in someone front lawn. According to the data log, it ran up to about 7PSI of boost before I let off, and pulled the timing back a little bit and ran a little lean. WOW the turbos spooled REAL quick, it was like no boost no boost no boost BOOOST SIDEWAYS!! is that NORMAL? it was pretty scary I was not expecting so much power so FAST from such a small throttle change. The wastegates on the turbos should be set somewhere around 8PSI, but it happened to fast I didnt even hear the BOV's go off, and the exhaust got REAL loud suddenly.

Steven89Iroc

Sorry, but that's just funny.
Anyway, I've been reading your thread for a little while, just thought I'd chime in. It sounds like that thing is going to be a beast when it's running right.
Are you sure it didn't downshift into first? I figure you would probably notice if it did, but it's a thought. That would explain the loud exhaust and instant tirespin (err, carspin).
I can't say that I've driven a turbo'd V8 in any form yet, but I could see how that setup would spool quickly enough to insta-boost to 7 psi, especially with open downpipes, and you're not using an IC right? Short inlet pipes mean even less lag.
It's a very rough comparison at best, but when I had the stock (tiny) turbo on my Talon (2.0 liters), floored in first gear from a stop it would go from 0 to 21 psi in about 1/10 of a second, and put me back in the seat HARD (gotta love AWD) and even torque steer a good bit with only half the power going to the front. Turbo's are just crazy like that sometimes.

Kingtal0n

One more Question before I leave Town; well 2 more.

What OIL Weight should I run now? I always ran 10W-30 but now im worried about it not being thick enough for the turbos.

Question 2:
I measured the compressor wheel inside the housing. at the largest point, (bottom) it is 2.97" Wide. does this say anything about the "size" of the turbo?

Kingtal0n

Someone just asked what I made the extensions out of, so ill post some pics of the material.

Also, on the welding rods, ill get back to you. My father was the one who supplied them, and im out of town, (using hotels internet access weee) so I dont know what rods they were.

Kingtal0n

here it is somewhat cleaned and sand blasted and welded together to make the rectangle.

Kingtal0n

Welder I used for manifolds.

Kingtal0n

welder info

Kingtal0n

test pics not using thirdgen's resources;
new camshaft


eclipse 1Gen DSM BOV's

changing springs

U bends, .085" thick

cleaning block

installing cam

Kingtal0n

installing cam

cleaning flange

interior of car

changing springs

stealthram on ground

see the front mounts....

89JYturbo

That sure was a quick and cheap build for a twin turbo system. I read elsewhere that it only cost you $600 so far. Thats impressive. Compare to my system, which took me a whole winter and $3000!

I'm really anxious to see how it performs. How long until we have some timeslips? If you run faster than my 12.4 and spent so much less time and money, I may be a little upset! JK

B4Ctom1

http://s94759759.onlinehome.us/ttpics/camshaft1.JPG

HOTCAM!?!?! noooooooo baddddd Kingtal0n! My dog told me those are not supposed to be used for boost due to the lack of overlap and excessive cylinder pressures! After my cam selection for the super ram 412 I figured even my dog could pick a better cam

THEGENERAL

GOTTA TRUST THE ALMIGHTY CHOCOLATE LAB.....lol....i got a black lab that talks to me too...LMAO

B4Ctom1

No, she is smarter than the lab I had before. She is a Rhodesian Ridgeback and Weimaraner mix.

She also wants to know what tranny and rear you are going to run kingtalon.

Steven89Iroc

1) You don't really need any different weight than you already use because of the turbos. I would say 10W-40 should be fine (that's what I would use), but make sure it's full synthetic if it's not already. Turbos tend to "wear out" oil a lot faster and synthetic is better for the bearings at ~60,000-100,000rpm anyway (I didn't notice if you said you were using it or not, you might know this already, in that case, duh... hehe).

2) From what it sounds like, you're talking about the major diameter, a.k.a. the exducer, although you can't measure that with it inside the housing. It doesn't neccesarily help with figuring out which wheel (size) it is without knowing the inducer as well (small part of the wheel). When you figure that out then you can compare the measurements with known wheels.

Kingtal0n

<b>2) From what it sounds like, you're talking about the major diameter, a.k.a. the exducer, although you can't measure that with it inside the housing. It doesn't neccesarily help with figuring out which wheel (size) it is without knowing the inducer as well (small part of the wheel). When you figure that out then you can compare the measurements with known wheels.</b>

Well the biggest part of the wheel was inside the housing (had to remove it the housing) and it was the 2.97" size. the smallest part of the wheel is about 2.45" i think, have to check again. it takes up the whole turbo's inlet so all i have to do is measure the inlet right?

<b> but make sure it's full synthetic if it's not already.</b>

Um.. its not.. and i cant really afford synthetic right now... can i run regular oil for a month or two without destroying anything? i change it all the damn time too. like once every 2-3 weeks i change the oil.

<b>HOTCAM!?!?! noooooooo baddddd Kingtal0n! </b>

Its not a hot-cam... its a comp custom grind that i picked out with the help of crossfire and my own personal goals for a useable powerband. that and my snake told me it would be "teh shiznit" and stuff.

<b>That sure was a quick and cheap build for a twin turbo system. I read elsewhere that it only cost you $600 so far. Thats impressive. Compare to my system, which took me a whole winter and $3000! </b>

yep $600 so far, im writing a long "article" on where i got my stuff, how long it took, etc... and things i learned along the way. in it explains how and where i got my stuff so cheap. for instance, i wound up trading an old transmission for the turbos to the owner, who didnt even know what they were.

Steven89Iroc

Okay, you are taking measurements at the right places it sounds like (mostly). To find out for sure which wheels they are, you have to be quite accurate in the measurements because there are so many wheels out there, just be sure they're real close.
A 20G compressor wheel measures 2.07" at the inducer and 2.68" at the exducer. If your measurements are correct, those wheels are not 20G's. Another way to tell is by how many blades/what style the wheels are. The 20G has 12 staggered blades (looks like 6, with 1 more behind/under each blade)
A 17C compressor wheel measures 1.90" at the inducer and 2.68" at the exducer, also not the same. The 17C wheel has 12 even blades (just looks like 12 blades).
If your measurements are close, your wheels sound more like T04E 57 trims, which measure 2.23" and 2.95", and also have 12 staggered blades.
However, that it not to say that your measurements are 100% correct. About the inducer, you can't measure it from the inlet, that doesn't take into account the clearance from the wheel to housing (albeit small), or the possible taper from the beginning of the outlet to where the wheel starts. For example, the inlet I.D on my Talon's T04B compressor is 2.75", but the T04B "V" wheel only measures 2.18" at the inducer. I think it's probably safe to say that your inducer is a bit smaller than you measured.
Anyway, enough about that, hoped it helped.

You can definately run on conventional oil without harming anything especially if you change it all the time, it's just much better over the long run to use full synthetic when have turbos (though you'd be surprised at how quickly things can get crappy/gunky with conventional when it gets real hot, compared to synthetic).
Now, If you're changing every 2-3 weeks which I would estimate to be ~900 miles if you drive average, just buy synthetic and change it every 2000-2500 miles, and it'll cost the same.
Another thing to be a tad more concerned over with conventional over synthetic is the turbo bearings seizing up when the hot oil gunks up in there. That is why people "turbo time" their cars, to let the hot oil run out of the turbos and the cooler oil (usually from the oil cooler) into them so when they stop spinning they won't freeze up solid (requiring a rebuild). Synthetic helps prevent this as it can withstand higher temps without turning into "crude oil". At any rate, I would say leave your car idling for 30 sec-1 min after you get done driving (more if you drove hard) so this doesn't happen (if you don't already). It's better to be safe than sorry IMO.

That is definately the cheapest TT setup on a thirdgen I've ever heard of, especially since it's running , props to you.

Kingtal0n

HMMMMMMMM;

Weeeel. ok explain this, i dont understand staggered wheels VS regular. you say staggered, can you SEE the staggerd part of the wheel with the compressor housing ON? when i look at the wheel with the compressor housing in place, i see every fin and they all look the same. there are 12 fins total.

when i pulled off the compressor housing, it looks wickedly different. the fins fan out, i guess to what you call the exuder? i cant remember if there are more fins inside though. i dont think so. lets assume its a 17C compressor wheel, at the exuder the fins are definetelly more than 2.6X" wide. more like nearly 3". i dont think ill be pulling off the housing again, so ill try to measure the visible portion of the wheel.

there is literally ZERO shaft play side to side or up to down, the wheel is pretty much the same damn size as the turbo inlet. i can see a TEEEENNNYY gap though, probably .002 or something.

they were rebuilt for sure. there are numbers on them... hmm check this post for more info and PICtures of them maybe you can finnaly answer the question of what they are and win a cookie.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=238866

Kingtal0n

and just in case anyone didnt know...

EvilCartman

iTrader: (1)

Kingtal0n, if you still need a host for videos and such, give me a PM I got plenty of space and bandwidth.

Kingtal0n

Got exhaust on it today! nice and Quiet. you cant even tell its got turbos anymore. i can now hear my blow off, they make sound even when there is no boost... its very... interesting. HRM i say.

in other news, ah, here is my fuel map. the numbers represent pulse width, i.e. 35 = 3.5MS 125 = 12.5MS .

it seems to like this base map, a little rich but its mostly un-tuned. for reference i have 38# Injectors @ 50PSI (flowing 43#~)

nightrider87

What computer is it that you're running? 730?

Kingtal0n

Holley Commander 950;

Update: Hooked more stuff up today. Re-did the oil lines for turbos, used #4 braided steel to minimize chance of failure. Replaced a gasket or two that had blown...

Still need air filters. tommarow hopefully ill have some. these old paper craps just dont let it do its thing...

Had oil blown all over the place today too. Apparently, the PCV filter stopped working and allowed boost to enter the crank-case, which of course the oil inside found all the little pin-holes and weak gasket seals, allowing about a quart of oil to blow all over my exhaust. it also sent the dipstick flying out, not a pretty sight to see.

sigh* well its fixed now. more updates later....

nightrider87

well that brings something to mind.

What do you need to run when you run boost in terms of a pcv or just breathers or???

Kingtal0n

There is a "filter" on the brake booster, it allows air to travel into the booster but not out of it. I picked up one of those from auto-zone ($3?) and placed it in-line the PCV system. this way, engine vacuum can pull air out of the motor during normal driving, but doesnt allow airflow to enter the motor during boost. if anyone can think of a better way to preserve the PCV let me know...

nightrider87

so a "check valve" essentially for the brake booster?

What do you run in the valve covers? breathers on both sides?

BBSDesigns

Hi Kingtal0n,
Have you checked your compression on the cylinders? That kind of crank pressure sounds more like blown piston rings.

Kingtal0n

regular old PCV valves with the said filter in-line.



BBS designs, if it was piston rings that would be the weirdest coincidence ever, considering that the problem showed up suddenly, and coincidentally dissapeared just as suddenly with the addition of said inline filter. weird huh?

nightrider87

lol ^^
deffinately happy for you that it wasn't something that serious.

Is it possible to use breathers though kingtalon?

89JYturbo

I run a breather in each valve cover. It works good except I get a bit of oil mist on the valve covers and makes it look a little sloppy. Not everyone is concerned about that though. I would also get some fumes from the crankcase vapor pushing out the breathers when stopped in traffic (nothing major, just a little annoying). I plan to run breather hoses to each turbo inlet pipe so the engine will just burn the vapors. This will solve both of these issues.

Kingtal0n

well of course you could run breathers... but why would you? the positive benefits of running PCV are ten fold; and it wont hurt performance during WOT because they are blocked off by said filter. so all the time you daily drive, you have the benefits of PCV.

Kingtal0n

thats a very bad idea... From what ive read turbos dont like little droplets of oil hitting them at 80,000 RPMS... I would just run PCV directly to the intake from the valve cover... same effect but no turbo-oil mess.

89JYturbo

It sounds like your set-up isn't trouble free either! I never had to mop up a quart of oilt that blew all over my engine because of a PCV failure. But your idea is pretty slick, hopefully that doesn't happen again for you.

As far as the oil droplets damaging the turbo, how do the factory turbo cars do it? I don't think they have an external breather as that would not satisfy the smog police. Maybe they use a breather filter mounted in engine air filter box? Either way, the breather hoses I am hooking up will be pretty far down-stream of the compressors, so any droplets large enough to cause damage (if that is even possible) should have fallen out of the airstream.

Steven89Iroc

My Talon when stock had the valve cover breather routed back into the intake tube before the turbo, just like you said. It never hurt the turbo (or anyone elses), but it makes a gooey mess of the intake tube/compressor housing/IC pipes/intercooler. Yep, intercooler efficiency goes out the window when it's filled up with thousands of miles of oil buildup.
A better way to do that is to make/buy a catch can and put an open filter on that so the oil goes into it instead of all over the engine bay (over time).

89JYturbo

I like the catch can idea. I can't believe I hadn't thought of that before. The catch cans even add a racey look.

nightrider87

Your turbos add enough of a racey look that you should need to worry about that lol !

I'm sorry to go off topic but I don't know the exact function of a PCV valve. Would someone mind enlightening me?

onebinky

iTrader: (1)

It functions to ventilate the crankcase, and take all the crankcase fumes that would otherwise go to atmosphere and reintroduce them to the intake tract to be burnt by the engine.

It started out as a complete emissions device to satisfy the tree huggers, but it does very well at keeping crankcase temps down as well

Kingtal0n

<b>It started out as a complete emissions device to satisfy the tree huggers, but it does very well at keeping crankcase temps down as well </b>

If you do a small search, nightrider87, You will find alot of good information on PCV systems and why you need one. not "should have", NEED.

I forget all of the benefits, but generally the result is cleaner oil, (less crankcrase acids that contaminate the oil), better piston ring seal (less blow-by), longer oil life, longer engine life, better fuel economy, fewer oil leaks, etc... the list goes on.

Its not very hard to hook up properly, and the benefits far outway the only negative thing about it, intake charge contamination. but like i said, there is no intake charge contamination during boost because the valve stops flow during boost, so my WOT is unaffected. and if its baffled correctly, you wont draw any oil with it as occurs on many pre-turbo PCV systems where inlet air vacuum will generally pull oil from the valve cover (as in the afor mentioned example)

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I don’t know about keeping the crankcase temps down, but it does help oil life and lubrication greatly and prevent forcing oil out the seals/gaskets on the engine.

The problem is that the blowby (exhaust) gasses are acidic, and contain particles of carbon and water. The water they all dilute the oil, contaminiate it and acids destroy bearing liners.

OTOH, my brother got fed up with trying to keep his PCV system working right on his blown engine and finally just got rid of the whole thing and installed a valve cover breather and called it done.

Kingtal0n

I think im going to start a new thread, part 2, this ones is pretty long and 95% of the fabrication is done with.

This weekend im buying a new welder and re-welding some things that are leaky from the other crappy welder.
Im also replacing my home-made T3 gaskets with real ones.
and going to try routing the air filters to in FRONT of the intercoolers, or nearby, to keep inlet temps down.

I may be going to get the car tuned and WB dynoed next weekend, if I can fix the oil leaks by then. Oil leaks in the valve covers, of all places

Kingtal0n

Just an update. heres a datalog from a few night ago.

yesterday I pulled the oil pan off to braze the oil return fittings into it. I also got my new correct length pushrods today.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

HUH? why did I just get an alert in my inbox that this has a new post???

daverr

iTrader: (1)

LOL there is an identical thread title started by another member.
wow 7 years old must of not been cheap at all.

Levi_Shears

sorry mark. idk what happen. i had a whole diff title for my thread but it like changed it to your title. i was having alot of trouble with starting a new thread. ill see if i can change the title somehow. but in the mean time can you guys go check out my thread give me some help and advice? thanks