userchemical

hey guys i have a 1984 Camaro Z28 with a low mileage Carb'd 305. Motor is completely stock except it has headers and a 3" cat back. Now as for the drive line its matched up to a T-5 transmission, stock driveshaft, 4th gen 10 bolt auburn posi 3.42 gears disc rear end, boxed control arms, adjustable panhard bar, poly used from the tranny back.

Now i was planning on just doing some work on the valve train (cam, lifters, push rods, roller rockers, longer rocker studs), and in addition to that throwing some nitrous at it as well. This is and will be when done pretty much a stock 305 minus the valve train and drive line. I'm not to concerned about the motor blowing as this work is mainly just for fun. When the winter is over ill be taking it to the track and seeing how much i can throw at the engine.

My question is how do 305's react to boost?can the handle it? will it make any power at all, is it worth it?keep in mind ill be building it on a budged, spending a total of about 1200 bucks, and don't say thats not possible, I'm not building a daily. I plan on doing the valve train no matter what, i guess the main question is will nitrous be a better option then boost for a 305?

Or will the 305 just love the boost, and maybe be able to take it and live through it?

anyways, any info you guys can give me would be great.
Thanks
Merry Christmas

Matt

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

for 1200 it's not possible. not in any way shape or form. Your trans won't take it nor the rear in addition. Triple your budget for the boost alone and you "might" get there in addition to then needing a different trans and rear. I would pull the 305 and purchase a 350 and put that in the car WELL before I dumped a dime into the 305. Don't go out and buy a new cam, lifters, and gaskets for $500 when you could look around and get a good 350 for a little more that someone built as a project.

leeperryracing

to go turbo is not CHEAP! that is why I dedcided to go back with a blower setup for my Z28 project

userchemical

i dont plan on buying a kit, i plan on building it myself.
im looking for pro's and cons here.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I have a stock TPI 305ci with turbos on it. I run around 9 PSI of boost on average. It has been up to 14 PSI a few times.

PROS:
Use the engine you have (free)
Want more power, use more boost
305ci engine block is the same size as a 350ci, you can upgrade later.

CONS:
Make less power than a 350ci would at the same boost level.

Consider this, boost is an HP multiplier in general. A stock TPI 305ci made about 20HP less than a stock TPI 350ci. So at about 7.5 PSI of boost you would get about 20*1.5 = 30 HP more out of the 350ci. Does that really matter to you. Is the 30HP worth the engine change?

In terms of cost. You can build a setup for around $1200 if you fab it all yourself and shop wisely. The setup in my truck was the following:

two 50 trim turbos (2*$55) = $110
two T3 rebuild kits (2*$55) = $110
stock TPI manifolds & T3 flange steel and studs ($20)
I cut the steel with a torch and cleaned up with carbide burrs
cast iron welding rod for welding TPI manifolds ($15)
oil inlet line and brass fittings, I made the inlet flanges ($20)
oil outlet pipe, steel, -12AN fittings, hose & ends ($100)
downpipe flanges and 4 2.5" mandrel bends ($80)
compressor mandrel bends, three 2.5" ($40)
IC mandrel bends, two 3" ($30)
24"x12"x4.25" IC core and alum for end tanks ($250)
compressor inlet pipes, two 2.5" mandrel bends ($30)
good quality compressor pipe couplers & T-bolt clamps ($220)
CBV and hose ($50)
K&N filters ($50)
Water injection kit, I made the kit ($220)
30#/hr fuel injectors ($200)
2 bar MAP sensor ($60)
730 ECM PROM tuning, I already have the stuff (free)

110+110+20+15+20+100+80+40+30+250+30+220+50+50+220+200+60
=220+155+150+250+250+320+260
=375+400+570+260
=775+830
=$1605 Total

Get an Ebay $100 IC, knock the cost down to $1450. Ditch the water/alky injection ($220) and the cost is 1600-220 = $1380. Ditch the IC completely and knock of $150 for pipe and couplers, and no water/alky injection. Now at 1600 - (250+150+220) = $1600 - 620 = $980.

I would go with the base setup without the IC ($980) and add the water/alky injection ($220) for a total of $980+220 = $1200.

A couple of T3 50 trims top out at about 500 BHP. With the water/alky you should be able to get up to around 400-450HP before you need a bigger fuel pump ($110).

The advantage here is that you will still get good gas mileage when not in boost and make good power with a small cam (excellent idle, good low end Torque). No need for a big stall converter.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

are you only recommending to remove the IC due to cost reasons? I'm planning 15 pounds or so out of my carb blow thru setup and was under the impression that an IC was a needed part, not to mention it's already ordered I also was planning on a water injection seutp, I see that you said you built one for $220, do you have a link to a webpage that you built yours based off of?

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Remove the IC only for cost reasons. If you have the money and room I would install the biggest IC you can get. I have read a lot about having too big off an IC and that spool will be slow. I don't believe it. The stock TPI 305ci with the giant IC good for 1200HP has .5 PSI of boost at 1700 RPM. There is zero pressure drop at 14 PSI and IATs will be colder than ambient with the water/alky injection on.

The pump came from www.coolingmist.com. It is the 150 PSI Shurflo pump that pretty much all the water/alky sites re-sticker and sell as their own. The last pumps as of all this year can handle straight meth/eth if you choose. I also got a check valve from them. I bought the line, misting nozzles, and brass fittings from mcmaster-carr.com. I had to drill and NPT tap the brass fittings to install the misting nozzles. I run Peak windshield washer fluid (30% meth.) and add 20% of strip kleen denatured alcohol to it making it 50/50 water/meth-eth. It comes out to $3.60 a gallon from memory. I have put 2 gals of Peak washer fluid and part of a denatured gallon through it.

The IC and water/alky are a great combo. If you have the money definately run both.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

yea I definitely got the largest IC that would fit in the front, not to mention having to cut part of the bumper support out i'm sure too. Thanks for the pump info, is there a formula to figure out what diameter misting nozzle or fittings to use?

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

On the truck I spent over 40 hours cutting and making new braces for the radiator support to fit the IC. It is worth it in the end. I got the same IC for the Camaro so I will have to make an entirely new radiator support for it.

I am running a 5 GPH nozzle in the 305ci. I tried a 10 GPH and it was way too much even with the progressive controller. My controller is the stock ECM with a code modification. The pump is run from a relay and the ECM controls the relay. I adjust the duty cycle on time with the code. With the 5 GPH nozzle I give it 25% at 4 PSI and 100% at 14 PSI. The code pulls 6% of fuel from the injectors and adds timing when the pump is on.

Check out http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml for the nozzle calcs. Snow Performance instuction sheet has a baseline setting vs. HP. I like the not2fast calc. site.

I have to go shopping now....not many hours left.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

well with a carb I can't really control the fuel ratio once the water injection kicks in so for street duty I was just going to use straight water. Then research more for track duty how meth/water mix will affect jetting. Luckily this wideband will at least keep me in the loop

calebzman

iTrader: (3)

Here is what I did when I turboed my stock 305: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/764085/2

I think it's possible to do with that budget if you are doing all the fabrication yourself. My 305 only lasted a few months before I busted some pistons, but I was running 10psi. If yours breaks, junkyard engines are cheap to get. Good luck!

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Don't run straight water. You are gaining a lot of IAT cooling from the IC. All you gain from water is a little more IAT cooling. Run 50/50 water/alky or more alky if you do it safely. I run 50/50 because I have an older pump with viton seals that can only handle 50/50 water/alky. When I do the car it is getting the newer pump that can handle 100% alky.

The thing about meth. is that the AFR is around 6:1 and ethanol is around 9:1 from memory. So spraying 50% of the water alky isn't that much fuel in terms of AFR. Methanol and Ethanol will give quite a bit of IAT cooling in itself. The additional octane is what you are after by using it. If I had better seals in my pump and S/S lines I would spray straight Methanol at the track...and add in a bunch more spark advance.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

When I boosted the 305ci TPI I had to pull a bunch of timing because of detonation. When I was running 87 octane and 9 PSI of boost I had 2* of advance at 3600 RPM and 9* at 4800 RPM. It had some power, but nothing like it should have had at 9 PSI. Once I went to 93 octane and water/alky I set it at 17* at 3600 RPM and 24* at 4800 RPM. It was a night and day difference in terms of HP.

Just guessing, but you probably had too much timing if your 305ci had 9.5:1 compression like the one I have.

UR50SLO

iTrader: (1)

That was caused from too much timing. Detonation killed those ring lands.
Won't take long to do that with poor fuel tuning and too much ignition timing.
Boost won't hurt a engine if it's not detonating.

I mocked up some regular cast iron exhaust manifolds (upside down) (Came off 90's trucks) on a 305 I had on a engine stand.
You can bolt up stock GN turbos to these manifolds. There shuld be ample room for 2.5" Downpipes on each side.
Blow through carb (if your staying carb'd) Fuel pump upgrade and you'd be well on your way to a very budjet setup.
Tuning is going to be the pivital part. Start slow and work up to power.
It's not impossible to make good power on stock engines and keep them together!
Think a 89 4dr Nissan Maxima with a 3.0V6 is possible? It's my daily driver with a GN style turbo..Stock GN style IC and Tuning. The car runs 13.40's @107.89mph on pump gas through the muffler... and no... it's not a ***** muffler..the car's quiet as stock. (except for the turbo sound lol)
The Nissan started being boosted at 181,000mi .. it now has 238,000.
Not a "Built" engine... stock.. un opened bottom end. I replaced the headgaskets and all other upper end gaskets at 199,000.
Just more positive thoughts for you,
Scott~

userchemical

thank you very much for all the info.

this seems to be a very doable project, and the best part is, im building a fully forged shortblook for when the 305 blows. so the turbo will have a new real home one day.

but eitherway, this sounds like its going to be a lot of fun.

Blue-Beast

Are you a decent welder/fabricator???
With 2 Master Power turbos, a selection of elbows, and a bunch of braided line and fittings, this is what I came up with (not to mention the 100 hours I spent fabbing the system). That doesn't include the CSU carb, forged internals, O-ringed block, etc... It's build to handle 20psi, set at 10 for now. A 406 engine + 10psi = useless 1st/2nd gears.

click on the pic for the full album.

userchemical

nice thats very clean looking.

i like to think i can accomplish whatever i try. So we will see if im able to pull it off or not.

Blue-Beast

Cool. Thanks! Glad you like it. I tried to make it pleasing to the eye and whatever looked out of place was changed accordingly.

I'm sure the 305 can handle small amounts of squeeze. Forged pistons are a must for durability.
It's amazing how well even small amounts (3 to 5) of boost makes.
If you build a boost-specific engine, you too will have brutal results.
Good luck on your build.
PM me if you need any help.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

What turbines did you use with the MP T70s?

Blue-Beast

I got mine from VS Racing. Really cool place. I set up an account, ordered online and had the turbos within a few days.
Since I will have a 406, as well as the white car in the pics, we opted for the bigger housing on the .96AR, a small combo would need the .68s.
http://www.vsracing.net/catalog/prod...roducts_id=812

I was skeptical, until I drove the car. I thought those would be too big and cause lag. My thoughts were to use one .68 and one .96, for a combo of good low-end and good top-end. The 406 has good torque and spools up quicker than I first thought. It also has a lot to do with a matched package.
They work excellent, and are reasonably priced. I wouldn't risk cheaper,used e-bay units.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

VS Racing seems to have a good reputation as turbomustangs.com. The MP turbos are a good buy. I forget what the exhuast wheel is in the MP T70s. That has a lot to do with choosing a turbine A/R. It is probably a smaller wheel so the .96 A/R works well. I think the MP GT45 has the big exhaust wheel in it. I usually match up exhaust wheel size to the turbobygarrett.com turbine curves to get a rough idea for spool RPM and HP limit.

Ebay turbos aren't bad if you know what you are looking for. Most sellers have no idea what the unit is and can't answer questions so you have to go by the pics and part numbers. Most of the turbos sold by the used truck ebay dealers are worn and need a rebuild kit and some hard parts. With all that said, I would go with new name brand turbos for the stuff you build. Too much time and money into the other parts beside the turbo. Having a bad turbo destroy stuff isn't worth the money saved because it would cost more in the long run.

You would be surprised how simple the internals are in a turbo. You can get a kit for pretty much any turbo for $50 - $150. I have a few that I put new parts in and it isn't bad. The worst part is cleaning carbon off the exhuast wheel. The only real odd tool you need is a couple of picks for the journal bearing snap rings. Like anything that spins fast, you need to mark the positions before taking it apart. Clock the seals properly and clean well.

EDIT: The MP T70 lists with a 73mm exhaust wheel inducer. Using the boost calculator and garrett turbine flow maps I would guess that the 406 starts to build boost at 3500 RPM. It is probably at 10 PSI of boost by 4000-4200 RPM. Sound right?

userchemical

well guys ive talked it over with myself and nitrous has been ditched for now and i will be focusing on building the turbo parts..

now ill need a new intake manifold, car, and also a camshaft.

what would everyone recommend? The car will get valve train, cam, lifters, push rods, rockers, and longer rocker studds. on top of that the ignition system will be changed and ill also upgrade the fuel system.

I need a good intake and carb set up for cheap.

suggestions?

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Why not just put a turbo on what you already have without the cam, intake, etc?

89RS_82Z

iTrader: (2)

gale banks twin turbo hehehe

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Junk is on the right track. I built my first turbo kit for less then $1200 using ebay/used parts.

The last install cost the customer about $3500 for high quality parts and he didn't do a lot of fabrication (see 0-6psi < 48hrs thread)

It depends on your shopping and fabrication skills. Look for good deals.

userchemical

well i could mod and use what i have, but i am having some fun here, and would like a better intake and carb set up. money is not overly an issue. but like i said im trying to stick to a budget.

UR50SLO

iTrader: (1)

A good blow through carb and hat is first. I'd worry about cam and intake later. Get your setup done and working first. Stock cams are good for boost. The engine works now... All your adding is more airflow.
Just my suggestion.
~Scott

Batass

I dont think its worth the work. Stock hp on that motor is around 200. Under boost it'll get to around 300, staying under 8 lbs. I put a vortech on my old 305 and was running around 15-17 psi through a self modified holley. All stock internals. Didnt seem to knock either with the boost timing controller. I was surprised the motor didnt explode. It felt like 400-450 hp. I also had headers, intake, exhaust, lt1 cam, and rhs heads and 7.5:1 compression. Car was a dog, no bottom end. Stock stall converter though.
If your just doing it for fun, then rock on. But the effort-hp ratio is gonna suck. Unless someday you plan on building up the engine.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Like Junkcltr said, though, the 350 is a direct replacemant for the 305 and all the parts can be tranferred over. Also this will be a good learning experience and if something goes wrong the upgrade will be even more appreciated.

Similar event happened to me with my 3.1 after detonating it with a turbo. A 3.4 is now taking it's place.

It's funny when I think about the power of a 305 being around 200. The new 3.4/3500 should be in the neighborhood of 200-250whp N/A, and the 3800II in the 4th gens are 200.

userchemical

well the whole point of turboing the 305 is so i can out all the bugs and kinks in the turbo set up and have some fun while im at it. In the mean time build my 350 that will be able to handle 16psi all day long.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Exactly my point

We will be working on a prototype soon for SBC turbo pipes, may help you speed up the process a little.

Junk had good luck modifying his factory manifolds for his, he is braver then I welding to cast iron.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Ha ha, I don't know about braver. It was the first time I ARC welded in my life. What an experience that was. I bought some 6011 rod to practice on steel before doing the cast iron. I welded with about 3 rods on steel and I was ready to go.

I didn't have an ARC welder but found someone with one that had been sitting outside for about 10 years. I made up a new power cord and a couple of 5 foot leads out of left over batter cable (0/3 in size).

To weld the cast iron I bought 1 lb of 59% nickel rod. I found an old street water run off grate and setup it up on some concrete blocks. Made a fire under it and got a cooking thermometer that I clamped to the grate. Once I had some coals and the grate was at 400*F - 600*F I put the manifolds on it surrounded by some masonary bricks. I got the manifolds up to temp. and pulled them aside to run a bead. I peened the weld and put them back over the fire, pulled them aside to run another bead, and on and on.

Once done, I put them in a speedy dry oven made with the heated bricks to cool overnight. It worked great. You need an ARC welder, fire pit, speedy dry, bricks, and some 59% - 100% nickel rod. I think the 59% is better for cast iron to mild steel. The rod was about 15-$20 for 1 lb. I think I used all of it between the manifolds and the turbine housings. You could do the manifolds with 1/2 lb.

EDIT: I did end up buying a Chicago Electric ARC-180 welder for $100. The free one I got was too big to keep in the garage (weighs 250+ pounds). The ARC-180 has enough output to weld the exhaust manifolds. I use the ARC-180 to mess around and practice sometimes instead of using the MIG.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

What is Speedy Dry?

You like the HF welder? The MIG is still going that I bought a couple yrs ago. The potentiometer doesn't work properly and sometomes it's feed is inconsistant, but it still makes strong (and ugly) welds.

Have you used the touch start TIG they have there? I wouldn't mind having one so long as it does a nice job on steel. At least until I can find a TIG within budget (just missed a Miller for $450).

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

It seems to work good for steel up to 5/16" or a little thicker with mult-pass. It is the recon 220V ARC-180. I pulled the cover when I got it and all seemed fine. It does DC+/DC-/AC. On DC it does about 130 amps, and more on AC. The thing about ARC welders is there isn't much that can go wrong. It is just a shunt transformer with an output choke/transformer. Four diodes for DC that could go bad, but surplus ones are 20-$40 for a set of four. I have been happy with the ARC welder. For $100 you can't go wrong.

I still haven't tried the HF MIG setup, but would like to. I haven't tried the touch start TIG. I only TIG steel a little bit here and there in places that I don't need filler. Pretty much only "fine" work. I love the MIG and flux-core wire feeders for most of the stuff I make.


Speedy dry / oil absorbant....the white cat litter stuff.
Check out the snow when making the truck turbo manifolds.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

That's what I tought you meant, we actually do use cat litter at the shop. It's $3 per 50lbs.

So you are using it as an insulator to bring back the manifolds slowly. Man, I don't miss snow. Been 20yrs since I have seen it.

the HF MIG, like I said works good, but I am unable to make consistant welds with it. Nice beads are short, then the fluctuation of the feed makes it hard to keep it going...

http://s158.photobucket.com/albums/t...ers/?start=all

I am confident that getting solid welds with it (have plenty of practice with it now), that once I get a gas machine in my hands, welding should be much easier.

A friend gave us a Craftsman MIG (with argon capabilities), but is missing both the copper tip and insulating tip and just haven't taken the time to go shopping for repairs.

87camaroirockid

im thinking of doing this about how much hp were you running in a 305?

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

My 305 is already built to around 350-370hp. What would 8-10 psi do for it vs. Say 150 shot

91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow 175 cc heads, 4.10 gears, lots of suspension upgrades......... 24mpg @ 2300rpm hwy 65mph ........ 8.63@ 85mph 1/8th on street tires... 8.000's soon

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

how much does your car weigh? 85mph in the 1/8 is some pretty good steam. my LS1 car would normally run 87-88mph at full weight and 392rwhp on street tires.

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

Idk the weight ItS a base model 91' bird I've prolly knocked off 200-250lb from firewall forward but added some weight on the suspension with aftermarket everything and I weigh 180lbs..... That 85mph run was on street tires spinning bad 1st n 2nd trapped at 6000rpm 3rd gear with a horrid exhaust system and still not tuned perfect

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

9 PSI somewhat cooled: 360 HP ((9+14.7)/14.7) * .90 = 520 (gain of 160HP)