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I really like this routing better, more clean. I ordered a 90* to go right into the throttle body from the bov. Was thinking of adding a nozzle in the air cleaner bend so it sprays pre-turbo.
You'll be ok. Have to spray a good amount in boost to really get things cool but the extra octane in alcohol will keep you safe.
Just expect to see hot air during cruise and idle. Not a huge deal but you'll be starting a boost pull when hot and its going to be alittle more difficult to measure air temp after meth inj with short run of piping, i guess unless you have iat in middle plenum but it may pick up heat soak too. Either way you should be ok with enough water/meth
You'll be ok. Have to spray a good amount in boost to really get things cool but the extra octane in alcohol will keep you safe.
Just expect to see hot air during cruise and idle. Not a huge deal but you'll be starting a boost pull when hot and its going to be alittle more difficult to measure air temp after meth inj with short run of piping, i guess unless you have iat in middle plenum but it may pick up heat soak too. Either way you should be ok with enough water/meth
I can control the Alky with the ECM so I could enable it when IAT > a certain temp or when boost > a certain MAP.
Was thinking of running 50/50 water meth mix.
I started playing with the car again this week. I'm building a motor for my boat but in my downtime I finished fabricating the down pipe. Sucks welding when it's 90 degrees and humid. Hopefully have the car moving again in about 2 weeks. Looking forward to the track this fall when it's cool.
fastedi ran alky only on his v6 car for a year , no problems till it he forgot to turn it on one day and broke a piston , honestly roatate the compressor outlet down 45* run the pipe down and inbetween the waterpump and radiator lower support( may have to notch it slightly) and then to the inlet of an intercooler on the passenger side.
then run the pipe form intercooler to tb up the driverside threw the battery tray and to the motor, i wouldnt rely on alky alone on a street car
I have done this very thing with an LC2. It will overheat for sure in a thirdgen unless you have very expensive cooling system and your cruising all the time.
If had to do it over again, I would have ran a pipe down under the car and back up to the TB for a little more cooling effect like posted above.
Just throw a Chinese IC on it and go. Not like your going to run 25-30psi with it.
If you need help on how to mount it, i have pics of my front mount IC in my car.
I ran if for one whole season. About 50 or so passes at the track and the IATs were always great. Except that one time in a round robin deal, i forgot to arm the stuff. I broke a piston ring and ring land. I shouldn't have put a master arm on there but my one fear was that the solenoid may stick open and if I saw that was happening I could turn off the pump and not have to turn the car off at the same time. But anyways alky by itself works well.
Just be sure to have some safetys programmed into the ecm. Boost vs IAT something like that. For drag racing alky on its own works fine, on the streets i wouldnt rely on alky and no IC as a back up if it fails. I got lucky though and it didnt fail but then again I only used it one year.
The alky nozzle is on the back side of the piping past the BOV
Here is what I had. Now I just run a large Intercooler.
That's the one bad thing about water/meth injection is that it can fail. Obviously many things can cause an issue, dead pump, wiring issue, clogged nozzle, etc. I run an intercooler and just recently added water/meth as well. My IAT's with just the ebay I/C would rarely go above 120. The IAT's would go down under boost until the I/C would heat soak and then they'd start creeping up. This is at 10 psi. Now with a little water injection (I'm just running water with a splash of washer fluid) my IAT's will go 20 degrees below ambient and stay there for as long as I'm in boost. And the piece of mind of the higher octane effect with the water never hurts either. I bumped up timing a few degrees and run a little leaner AFR's and life is good.
If you ran more alky I bet your temps would be even lower.
I just did back to back testing between front mount, E85, and Alky inj.
Results in a nut shell..... I run All of them.
I started out at 250 degrees at the traps. With the combo of all, Im at 70 degrees on an 85 degree day at the traps.
If you ran more alky I bet your temps would be even lower.
I just did back to back testing between front mount, E85, and Alky inj.
Results in a nut shell..... I run All of them.
I started out at 250 degrees at the traps. With the combo of all, Im at 70 degrees on an 85 degree day at the traps.
My intercooler is air/water so I rely on a pump for that as well.
This isn't really a street car.. I think I'm going to try the alky injection for a while. I'm running a megasquirt so I can put some safeties in place.
That's the one bad thing about water/meth injection is that it can fail. Obviously many things can cause an issue, dead pump, wiring issue, clogged nozzle, etc. I run an intercooler and just recently added water/meth as well. My IAT's with just the ebay I/C would rarely go above 120. The IAT's would go down under boost until the I/C would heat soak and then they'd start creeping up. This is at 10 psi. Now with a little water injection (I'm just running water with a splash of washer fluid) my IAT's will go 20 degrees below ambient and stay there for as long as I'm in boost. And the piece of mind of the higher octane effect with the water never hurts either. I bumped up timing a few degrees and run a little leaner AFR's and life is good.
I only trust ONE kit and that is ALKYCONTROL. You can have failures, but they are far and few between with these kits. I have been running alky for 12 years on various cars and never had a problem... until I bought a Snow Performance kit for my Duramax. Multiple problems and almost caught my truck on fire.
Run the alky kit alone is fine. Most kit failures are caused by improper installation or misuse. Like the end user putting 100% alky in a pump without edpm seals and use plastic lines.
Keep it 50/50 water/alky using the cheaper parts. With proper pump and lines go 100% alky if you are ok with your install and/or fire risks.
One reason for failures is corrosion from not enough use. May want to put in a feature to run the system at low pulsewidth every so often X minutes after startup when rpm exceeds a threshold.
If put together properly and used properly which you are more than capable of both, then it will work fine. Can the MS ECM power the pump directly or needs some sort of driver to power the pump?
Run the alky kit alone is fine. Most kit failures are caused by improper installation or misuse. Like the end user putting 100% alky in a pump without edpm seals and use plastic lines.
Keep it 50/50 water/alky using the cheaper parts. With proper pump and lines go 100% alky if you are ok with your install and/or fire risks.
One reason for failures is corrosion from not enough use. May want to put in a feature to run the system at low pulsewidth every so often X minutes after startup when rpm exceeds a threshold.
If put together properly and used properly which you are more than capable of both, then it will work fine. Can the MS ECM power the pump directly or needs some sort of driver to power the pump?
No, the MS has two outputs that can be used. I can either run an on/off style pump, or I can use a PWM to vary the output. The PWM is a bit more complex in that you can have pump duty cycle vs map vs rpm. (see attached image)
How much current (amps) can either provide? And can it power an inductive load (voltage flyback)?
I have used stock ECMs with PWM tables. With PWM you just set the duty cycle to 100% if you want full on/off.
I use the ECM to send a ground signal to a ckt containing the pump driver. The driver turns the pump on or off and contains a freewheel ckt. I even tried a simple relay as the driver figuring it would not last long. I know of one of them doing PWM that has pumped over 10 gallons of fluid. A mosfet driver is a better design.
What are you using for a pump driver?
What is the resolution of the table? If it allows a value of 1 then at is only 1/90ms = 11 Us at 11Hz. I don't see a pump reacting that fast.
I coded the stock ECM to have 8 steps from 0 to 100% duty cycle. This gives a 100/8 = 12.5% resolution. And each step is a period of 1/16Hz=62.5ms so the PWM period is 8*62.5ms = 500ms or .5 seconds. That is a frequency of 1/.5 = 2 Hz.
How much current (amps) can either provide? And can it power an inductive load (voltage flyback)?
I have used stock ECMs with PWM tables. With PWM you just set the duty cycle to 100% if you want full on/off.
I use the ECM to send a ground signal to a ckt containing the pump driver. The driver turns the pump on or off and contains a freewheel ckt. I even tried a simple relay as the driver figuring it would not last long. I know of one of them doing PWM that has pumped over 10 gallons of fluid. A mosfet driver is a better design.
What are you using for a pump driver?
What is the resolution of the table? If it allows a value of 1 then at is only 1/90ms = 11 Us at 11Hz. I don't see a pump reacting that fast.
I coded the stock ECM to have 8 steps from 0 to 100% duty cycle. This gives a 100/8 = 12.5% resolution. And each step is a period of 1/16Hz=62.5ms so the PWM period is 8*62.5ms = 500ms or .5 seconds. That is a frequency of 1/.5 = 2 Hz.
So, I don't even have any of the alky injection components, but from what I've read from other MS users they recommend using two outputs:
1) To turn the pump on to full pressure (via a relay)
2) A PWM output to a 'fast valve'.
On my MS2 it's recommended to use it as staged injection. The above screenshot is recommended for MS1 and MS3. The staged injection is a 8x8 table. So again, you'll have your conditional thresholds to turn the pump on, and then the table for duty cycle.
Are you using a valve or actually modulating the pump output?
I modulate the pump power. No valve. I chose the PWM rate described earlier by watching the spray output on a test bench. I was happy with the simplicity and operation so did not go the valve modulation route.
I think my table is 17x17 which is overkill but simple. I have a min rpm threshold for enabling the PWM output.
I really like this routing better, more clean. I ordered a 90* to go right into the throttle body from the bov. Was thinking of adding a nozzle in the air cleaner bend so it sprays pre-turbo.
I wonder if I'll blow up my engine..
-- Joe
Wish i seen this sooner. I run a AIS system on my non intercooled KB mustang. 12lbs of boost. No problems. 50/50. You could do a 1or 2 gph through the inlet and the rest of the gph in front of tb. Dont send it through the water box. Works great. They sell nice kits. Alchohol injection systems, call and talk to Rodney.
With my 305 build i am debating on using wiper fluid as my reservoir and avoiding intercooling plumbing. Thinking 3 gph nozzle or so. Recent procharged car i tuned had a flat intercooler plus a 3gph nozzle but no iat sensor so no idea what temps were but it made good power on pump gas with no trouble signs
With my 305 build i am debating on using wiper fluid as my reservoir and avoiding intercooling plumbing. Thinking 3 gph nozzle or so. Recent procharged car i tuned had a flat intercooler plus a 3gph nozzle but no iat sensor so no idea what temps were but it made good power on pump gas with no trouble signs
Probably get away with a 5-7 gph depending on boost. Plus you get octane boost and can add timing. Air to air only gets to ambient. WM can get it below. Rodney sells a nice 3 gallon like fuel cell for the trunk with the pump built into the bottom of the tank in the sump. Nice small package. WM in my opinion beats an intercooler setup. When we talked he used to run a vortech non intercooled 22lbs of boost on water meth pump gas 24°total timing under boost. Big gph though. 15-20 or so.
Bringing this post back since I may have to do no iC and install a water/meth injection kit.. I would be running 14 psi of boost on my sbc 355. any input would be appreciated. I am having a hard time with figuring out an intercooler for my setup since space is not of the essence.
Bringing this post back since I may have to do no iC and install a water/meth injection kit.. I would be running 14 psi of boost on my sbc 355. any input would be appreciated. I am having a hard time with figuring out an intercooler for my setup since space is not of the essence.
I think your IAT temps are going to be too high. Running a turbo briefly really opened my eyes up to things. The temperatures those things spit out is insane..
Bringing this post back since I may have to do no iC and install a water/meth injection kit.. I would be running 14 psi of boost on my sbc 355. any input would be appreciated. I am having a hard time with figuring out an intercooler for my setup since space is not of the essence.
I run water meth on a mustang Kenne Bell 2.1. I run 13psi. These have no intercooler and run alot hotter than a centri. I run a k thermocouple and gauge on the setup and can actually see whats going on. Without the injection its 240° under boost. On the methanol its only 120° or less depending on the gph I run. I run 14gph which is alot, but you have alot more mass of metal to cool down because Im shooting through the supercharger. On your setup a 8-10gph would be perfect and on a 80°+
Day. I have a few videos on you youtube you can actually see the setup and street runs under boost. With your setup meth is very safe and doable. I use an AIS kit which uses a small 3 gallon fuel cell and the pump is hidden in a sump under it. Intercooler is nice but at your psi level you dont need it and with meth its like running race gas because you can up the timing under boost and run pump gas.
Theres a chance I may be able to have the outlet on the intercooler I have relocated. Might be in luck after all.
I still think at that psi level you are more than safe not using an intercooler vs injection. You will only get as cold as ambient with an air to air intercooler. With a water methanol system you can get below ambient plus the added octane does wonders with added timing on pump gas. The 2 to 6 degrees of timing you can add on a methanol system can be worth 75hp plus. Usually a safe 18° total timing on pump gas intercooler car is standard. On a methanol car 20-24 total is attainable depending on the af ratio you run. 11.5/1 under boost is ideal for a street car. With a a/a intercooler remember you will loose psi through the cooling process. Im a fan of the injection route so my opinion leans that way. There are alot of variables and + &- either route.
I still think at that psi level you are more than safe not using an intercooler vs injection. You will only get as cold as ambient with an air to air intercooler. With a water methanol system you can get below ambient plus the added octane does wonders with added timing on pump gas. The 2 to 6 degrees of timing you can add on a methanol system can be worth 75hp plus. Usually a safe 18° total timing on pump gas intercooler car is standard. On a methanol car 20-24 total is attainable depending on the af ratio you run. 11.5/1 under boost is ideal for a street car. With a a/a intercooler remember you will loose psi through the cooling process. Im a fan of the injection route so my opinion leans that way. There are alot of variables and + &- either route.
I do see your point. I don't plan on going more than 14 psi for awhile. and yes there are a lot of variables either way,
I run water/meth on my centri, I see 147-150*F on a 60-70*F day at 8psi but meth hasn't kicked it. On a hot summer day it's going to be insane so I'm adding s FMIC and supplementing with water/meth. No good running around with 4-7psi with high IATs. Hope the FMIC will take the edge off.
Which one did you go with? What have the temps been? I just ordered a 31x12x3.25" from speed daddy and 3" piping kit. Now getting it to fit a TA is going to be fun.
I went back to a vortech supercharger. I just didn't dig the turbo.
I have a t-trim now. Years ago I ran a S-trim at max efficient impeller speed, made like 14+ psi without an intercooler. I did detonate that motor, but I think it was a combination of lack of fuel, iron heads, too much advance, being stupid.
I'm on the fence with the t-trim. I do have an air/water intercooler + pump, but I'd need to get a storage tank, and heat exchanger. The t-trim is supposed to be around 74% efficient.
I went back to a vortech supercharger. I just didn't dig the turbo.
I have a t-trim now. Years ago I ran a S-trim at max efficient impeller speed, made like 14+ psi without an intercooler. I did detonate that motor, but I think it was a combination of lack of fuel, iron heads, too much advance, being stupid.
I'm on the fence with the t-trim. I do have an air/water intercooler + pump, but I'd need to get a storage tank, and heat exchanger. The t-trim is supposed to be around 74% efficient.
-- Joe
Friend of mine just pulled a methanol kit out of a notch. Same kit as mine with 3 gallon tank. Ive learned alot since I got this ford esp boosted apps. To be honest Ive never seen a street driven mustang with a vortech with a water to air. They are all almost 100% methanol injected. Mine runs way hotter than a vortech. The big big bonus is the octane. You run catch cans on the breather setup?
I agree with above, for the most part water/air IC are for the track only. Due to the added complexity and the fact that you can throw dry ice/ice into the cooler and get much colder than ambient air temps. But at the added cost of complexity, cost, and once the water heats up it takes a very long time for the waters temp to drop again. For short runs/periods a water/air is king, but for the street is a2a or water/meth. Some will argue that a2w is still king for the street but you need a crazy system to keep water temps at ambient esp when everything is trying to heat it up (boost, engine, exhaust etc) if it's undersized even by the smallest amount it will continue to heat and then heat the air going into it.
I would be fine running mine as is with just the water meth but I'm **** and don't like the 140+ IAT temps below 8psi at the moment. That kills my low end power as well, so hopefully a FMIC will decrease cruising IATS and boost IATS and my meth will contribute over 7psi and help with detonation.
Which one did you go with? What have the temps been? I just ordered a 31x12x3.25" from speed daddy and 3" piping kit. Now getting it to fit a TA is going to be fun.
I ended up buying an intercooler from CX Racing. 28" by 13.5"x3.5" .. #in outlet and 2 - 2 1/2" inlets.
OEM has been running air/water intercoolers for some time now.
The Cyclone and Typhoon, Subaru legacy, 2003/2004+ Cobras, C6 & C7 ZR1 Corvette..
-- Joe
And stock they run hot as $hit, that's also why all the Subaru guys go FMIC and pick up lots of power.
Also I've been reading a lot of the new vetted are overheating and having issues.
Can't really argue as the setup really affects it. But a closed system esp OEM in a A2W would prob run off the engine coolant, which no new car runs cooler than 200-220*F for emissions. So now they use coolant and a cooler of some sort to lower the temps but I can't see them dropping that much temp since it still needs to use coolant at engine temp. Even if they run a seperate system the fluid would have to cooled to ambient temps constantly without continued heating over a period of time. I don't see how that can be affective on a DD style car with higher performance motors. A2A FMIC have the same issues if they get head soaked so neither is fool proof. But their is a lot less that can go wrong with a simple A2A compared to a A2W. I'd take simplicity over efficiency since I don't hit the track ever really. If it was a track car then A2W most def and it would be full of ice for the track runs. On the street I can't see it being that effective on our cars in HP that's double or more of an OEM style car.
Last edited by customblackbird; 05-22-2016 at 11:34 PM.
And stock they run hot as $hit, that's also why all the Subaru guys go FMIC and pick up lots of power.
I don't mean to start an argument, but that doesn't make sense from a physics standpoint. I mean, think about how much heat combustion generates on your engine, which is water cooled. With a properly sized radiator you could run around 130 degrees. The BTU's coming out of intake charged air is quite a bit less, but the same physics apply.
Originally Posted by customblackbird
Can't really argue as the setup really affects it. But a closed system esp OEM in a A2W would prob run off the engine coolant, which no new car runs cooler than 200-220*F for emissions.
That is not how they run, at least the ones I've personally seen. For example, the 2003+ cobra runs a a/w cooler, a heat exchanger, a tank, and a small 12v electric pump. It's an isolated system from engine coolant.
Originally Posted by customblackbird
Even if they run a seperate system the fluid would have to cooled to ambient temps constantly without continued heating over a period of time. I don't see how that can be affective on a DD style car with higher performance motors. A2A FMIC have the same issues if they get head soaked so neither is fool proof. But their is a lot less that can go wrong with a simple A2A compared to a A2W. I'd take simplicity over efficiency since I don't hit the track ever really. If it was a track car then A2W most def and it would be full of ice for the track runs. On the street I can't see it being that effective on our cars in HP that's double or more of an OEM style car.
On something with a big open front end, and plumbing that didn't have to be miles long a FMIC works quite well. That scenario doesn't describe a thirdgen, a corvette, etc.
The biggest benefit of a/w is the lack of pressure drop. You can run a very small cooler with less than a tenth of a psi pressure drop with the same efficiency. Where people screw it up, is not enough water in the system and too small of a heat exchanger to pull the heat out of the water.
Some ZR1 guys are having heat soak issues, but if you read the threads they are having problems on road courses on 95+ degree days, and the solution is an upgraded heat exchanger. Another guy complained of the same issue, but he was running 4 digit horsepower.
I don't mean to start an argument, but that doesn't make sense from a physics standpoint. I mean, think about how much heat combustion generates on your engine, which is water cooled. With a properly sized radiator you could run around 130 degrees. The BTU's coming out of intake charged air is quite a bit less, but the same physics apply.
Dont worry were not going to argue. As i stated, A2W is more efficient thus a better system but for certain applications. 130*F is 70* cooler than the coolest OEM coolant temp, 130*F is also 30*F hotter than almost any ambient temp in the USA lol. Say your driving in a cool place (right now in NJ its going to be 75*F today) and your cruising around with 130*F IAT temps due to the 130*F A2W temp. With an FMIC you COULD be running around at 75*F depending on how efficient the A2A is. THe biggest issue with A2A is that you can't really manipulate colder than ambient temps since your depended on the outside temps. A2W you can dump ice or dry ice and get super cold temps even on a hot day. But at the cost of a much more complex system (and weight).
I also have first hand experience with subaru's as my brother had a mean STI which we did a good bit of work on... including a FMIC due to heat soak and the tunes he wanted to run. So believe me that they are doing it even with A2W coolers.
That is not how they run, at least the ones I've personally seen. For example, the 2003+ cobra runs a a/w cooler, a heat exchanger, a tank, and a small 12v electric pump. It's an isolated system from engine coolant.
Yes, some have dedicated systems which I also pointed out. But I also see that as a potential issue due to heat soak. Spend alot of time in boost and heat that small closed system up your going to keep heating and heating if the exchanger gets maxed out. But the same could be said for A2A, heat it up enough and it will get heat soaked. Either setup can have potential flaws but I will agree that a properly setup A2W is a more efficient system... not denying that. At minimum you have a closed system with a large capacity of fluid (min 5 gallons) a large exchanger, a high volume pump etc it could be made to work. But now add in the weight, extra complexity, and getting it all to fit. To each their own. If I was on the strip I would go A2W, If my FMIC isn't up to the task I would go to A2W. But wont go their on a street car unless needed.
On something with a big open front end, and plumbing that didn't have to be miles long a FMIC works quite well. That scenario doesn't describe a thirdgen, a corvette, etc.
Agreed, third gens (besides camaro) so basically firebirds, are bottom breathers but If the radiator/condensor can get enough air a decent A2A should get enough flow to cool. Sure its not as optimal as a camaro but their are a few that are doing great setups. Not for the faint of heart and not if you don't want to cut up a car a little (mostly under car stuff). I think both systems have their draw backs.
The biggest benefit of a/w is the lack of pressure drop. You can run a very small cooler with less than a tenth of a psi pressure drop with the same efficiency. Where people screw it up, is not enough water in the system and too small of a heat exchanger to pull the heat out of the water.
Common miss understanding here. Boost is a measure of restriction, boost is also related to heat (density of air), heat has less density but more pressure. 10psi of non IC boost is not really 10psi, some percentage of that is heat generated by the compressor compressing the air. While people believe adding an IC they "loose" 1-2 psi is not true. The 1-2psi loss is pressure related to heat, so really your 8-9psi is colder more dense air that is going to make more HP than the hot 10psi of non IC air. Same thing goes for Boost being produced... Making 8psi of IC boost on a motor making 400hp, port the heads, add a boosted cam etc now your only making 4psi but making 500hp. Boost is just a measure of restriction of what the motor can consume, bc your making less boost does not mean your making less power but the combo has become more efficient. Pressure drop isn't usually a bad thing bc its usually showing a sign of denser air or more efficient combo.
How big of a A2W would be required on a bottom breathing 3rd gen? is their ample room and flow? You run into the same issues as a A2A but A2W is more efficient so you could prob get away with less air flow.
Some ZR1 guys are having heat soak issues, but if you read the threads they are having problems on road courses on 95+ degree days, and the solution is an upgraded heat exchanger. Another guy complained of the same issue, but he was running 4 digit horsepower.
Still an issue none the less, sure a A2A would have the same issue but the point being each system is capable of working great if the setup allows for a correct system design.
You haven't really brought up the issues with a A2W, sure in a perfect world your fluid pump would last forever, coolant would never need to be replaced, or filled or leak etc. Your on the road and your fluid pump dies, your day is done. Your coolant tank or lines or A2W IC leaks your day is done, or worse you leak fluid into the motor from internal IC leak (depending on setup) and possibly hydrolock the motor. Your have Another added drain on the electrical system even if its a small one. On top of that you need to fit a adequate heat exchanger, the A2W IC, piping, coolant lines, pump, and a storage tank filled with a heavy substance (I consider water heavy in large quantities lol). Not trying to start a fight or argument but these are all valid points. You could prob limp it home on any of the above issues with just high IATs but that will ruin your day/race day. With an A2A you only have 2 issues, blow the IC/leak or pop a coupler. no wiring, pumps, fluid etc involved.
I will also add that I think alot of things also depend on boost levels and the type of forced induction being used. FMIC are good for low boost setups with efficient centris or turbos. Guarantee that any positve displacement setup would require a A2W as they generate stupid IAT temps. So while I would say (just my OP if it were my setup) 15-20psi is safe for a FMIC and anything higher would be A2W territory do to compressor heat, added leak points/couplers and efficiency.
Not an expert, just conversing with a fine gentleman like yourself! I personally think the old procharger/vortec A2W 3rd gen kits look bad *** in the engine bay and getting it all to fit if that matters.
. First off you have to remember the factory doesnt use k thermocouples on their oem heat exchangers. I run one on my supercharged car. Run a regular iat sensor then run a k thermocouple and get back to me. Ive done it. Spent alot doing it. K thermocouple is 10x more accurate and respondes 10x faster to temp changes,ie under boost. As to what you see on a gauge without a k thermocoupe, well take it with a grain of salt. For example. My system ran always 150 iat not under load and a little lower on highway speeds. Well my gauge died and I had to get a new one which came with an iat sensor. The option to get the thermocouple was a 110 more so I used that until I got the money. The temp on the iat gauge was now showing 115 cruising and like 109 under boost. Way off. At 150 iat doing a boost hit at 11 or so psi with thermocouple it would drop down to around 125 with thermocouple. Ever seen w2a on a dyno where the temp doesnt move? Its because the gauge and sensor package. A w2a is fine as is a a2a. They both will only get as cold as the ambient air across the heat exchanger though. The best is using either and injecting methanol after the intercooler. If you do get the boosted air down to ambient then its that much less heat to be pulled out by the injection to get it below ambient. But the temp gains are basically 1% for every 10 °. The biggest gain is the octance boost and big resistance to detonation. Ie add more timing than you could with any heat exchanger system. Cant really compare 4 cylinder to v8. More heat and air moving in a v8 and comparable parts to combat temps are bigger. Ie methanol the nozzles and gph are alot higher.
Still can't use the K thermocouple for tuning. Since you can't use the readings for the PCM to adjust timing right? So its just a visual aid to actual temps vs what the IAT is showing. Still we require the IAT for engine running/tuning. I use my IAT to reduce timing above a certain temp but I guess if you knew the actual incoming air temp that you could screw the IAT reading table to take out less timing until higher temps. Incorporating a non NPT style k thermocouple into the charge pipe prob isnt easy unless you find a compatible sender.
I know speedhut sells standard low temp gauges with senders in NPT style. 0-200*F would be a good gauge and could be installed in any NPT bung in the charge pipe. Should react fast enough but they dont say the accuracy.
Still can't use the K thermocouple for tuning. Since you can't use the readings for the PCM to adjust timing right? So its just a visual aid to actual temps vs what the IAT is showing. Still we require the IAT for engine running/tuning. I use my IAT to reduce timing above a certain temp but I guess if you knew the actual incoming air temp that you could screw the IAT reading table to take out less timing until higher temps. Incorporating a non NPT style k thermocouple into the charge pipe prob isnt easy unless you find a compatible sender.
I know speedhut sells standard low temp gauges with senders in NPT style. 0-200*F would be a good gauge and could be installed in any NPT bung in the charge pipe. Should react fast enough but they dont say the accuracy.
You would have to step up to the more expensive gauges like a spa technique. Not many let you run a k thermocouple. You could most likley tune with a aftermarket ecu, not sure on the factory. Problem is those iat sensors are not made to get "wet" such as in methanol injection. They dont react fast and they are not accurate at all. Thermoucouples are milliseconds fast. Iats not so much. When I ran one i was throught almost 3 gears spraying methanol before it changed at all. Thermocouple is instant.
Just so its known I run no IC and meth, Meth didn't kick on long enough to make a difference but this is what my IAT temps showed in my LOG. This was tonight coming from from a local car show.
IATs at beginning of 4-5s pull where 111*F. 4-5s later and about 8psi max I cut out when when the meth kicked on (7psi ish). During this pull of 4-5s I went from a 111*F IAT to 144*F IAT. within 20s after boost of slow coasting like 45mph I was down to 120*F IAT.
At this point I was getting on the highway and in and out of boost on the highway I saw 160*F IAT which would drop down to 120's*F IAT. Most of the time it never dropped below 127*F and would hover around 130-140's IAT in and out of low boost. I parked the car and IAT at idle now was 142*F with a 178*F coolant temp and outside I would say was like 85-87*F ambient temp but pretty humid. since temps wouldn't lower more than 130-140s that meant everything was heat soaked. My meth is set for 5.5psi but from what I see its more like 7psi and I haven't gotten a run long enough on the meth (always run out of road or speed) to get IATs with meth. My IAT is located in a billet EGR block off plate in the OEM nylon LS truck intake. Maybe it as well is getting heat soaked alittle too.
My blower is pretty small so I'm I can be in boost at like 1700rpms on the highway in a locked converter so it heats up the air pretty good lol.
I have a cheap speed daddy FMIC 31x12x3.25" coming in the mail Friday and some extra couplers. Hopefully it can drop temps 30*F at a minimum so I'm not cruising around at such high temps.
Just so its known I run no IC and meth, Meth didn't kick on long enough to make a difference but this is what my IAT temps showed in my LOG. This was tonight coming from from a local car show.
IATs at beginning of 4-5s pull where 111*F. 4-5s later and about 8psi max I cut out when when the meth kicked on (7psi ish). During this pull of 4-5s I went from a 111*F IAT to 144*F IAT. within 20s after boost of slow coasting like 45mph I was down to 120*F IAT.
At this point I was getting on the highway and in and out of boost on the highway I saw 160*F IAT which would drop down to 120's*F IAT. Most of the time it never dropped below 127*F and would hover around 130-140's IAT in and out of low boost. I parked the car and IAT at idle now was 142*F with a 178*F coolant temp and outside I would say was like 85-87*F ambient temp but pretty humid. since temps wouldn't lower more than 130-140s that meant everything was heat soaked. My meth is set for 5.5psi but from what I see its more like 7psi and I haven't gotten a run long enough on the meth (always run out of road or speed) to get IATs with meth. My IAT is located in a billet EGR block off plate in the OEM nylon LS truck intake. Maybe it as well is getting heat soaked alittle too.
My blower is pretty small so I'm I can be in boost at like 1700rpms on the highway in a locked converter so it heats up the air pretty good lol.
I have a cheap speed daddy FMIC 31x12x3.25" coming in the mail Friday and some extra couplers. Hopefully it can drop temps 30*F at a minimum so I'm not cruising around at such high temps.
When you did run meth what was the mix ratio and gph of the nozzle? Better yet what was the psi rating of the pump? I have my system come on at 1 psi. What gauge do you use? And sensor?
When you did run meth what was the mix ratio and gph of the nozzle? Better yet what was the psi rating of the pump? I have my system come on at 1 psi. What gauge do you use? And sensor?
Wiper fluid for 30/70 (meth/water). Its a snow kit (stage 1 NA kit about 5 yrs old), high pressure pump (250psi I think), 175ml single nozzle rated for 350-525 whp), upgraded check valve snow perf nozzle, 16psi devils own check valve. I have an AEM meth flow gauge installed inline right before the nozzle which measures the actual flow of the fluid. During testing at 100% duty cycle its showing 360ml of flow through the gauge so the 175ml is more like 2x that at 360ml actual. I realize the pressure switch is prob too high at this point but its a holley 5.5psi fuel pressure safety switch (what I had lying around with the lowest pressure rating).
Meth flow gauge/fail safe is AEM, IAT sensor is a new FAST brand, screw in with open element. Actually surprise it reacted as fast as it did.
This info is without the meth flowing as it just turned on when I let off. Just showing what heat soak etc is doing with no IC or cooling and a small/medium blower.
Going to look for a low pressure switch of like 1-2psi prob. Problem is I'm always in the 0.0" - 2psi as it builds boost so easily so I wanted it to activate higher than that so I'm not just blowing through my fluid. Timing is conservative at 13-14* so far at 8psi and 4400rpms.
Going to look for a low pressure switch of like 1-2psi prob. Problem is I'm always in the 0.0" - 2psi as it builds boost so easily so I wanted it to activate higher than that so I'm not just blowing through my fluid. Timing is conservative at 13-14* so far at 8psi and 4400rpms.
What are you using for an ECU? I let my MS control everything.
What are you using for an ECU? I let my MS control everything.
-- Joe
Stock 99 LS PCM. No real way to control anything. I have it setup as an independent system and let the IAT temps control the timing to an extent. If Meth is engaged and drops temps 20-30*F and the IAT reacts fast enough it could advance 2* estimated for cooler charge. Basically I have IAT pulling timing above 110*F and goes up the hotter it gets but it pulls more at 140 than 120. IAT seems to be decently quick according to my logs. Its no instantaneous but it could adjust within a few sec if I spend that much time in boost.
Stock 99 LS PCM. No real way to control anything. I have it setup as an independent system and let the IAT temps control the timing to an extent. If Meth is engaged and drops temps 20-30*F and the IAT reacts fast enough it could advance 2* estimated for cooler charge. Basically I have IAT pulling timing above 110*F and goes up the hotter it gets but it pulls more at 140 than 120. IAT seems to be decently quick according to my logs. Its no instantaneous but it could adjust within a few sec if I spend that much time in boost.
You should consider an MS3. The Stock stuff is like running a marathon in a potato sack.
If you had a MS3 you could create conditions like: when IAT is above a certain amount, and boost above a certain amount, etc, etc. can even do PWM modulated to increase spray with boost.
Wiper fluid for 30/70 (meth/water). Its a snow kit (stage 1 NA kit about 5 yrs old), high pressure pump (250psi I think), 175ml single nozzle rated for 350-525 whp), upgraded check valve snow perf nozzle, 16psi devils own check valve. I have an AEM meth flow gauge installed inline right before the nozzle which measures the actual flow of the fluid. During testing at 100% duty cycle its showing 360ml of flow through the gauge so the 175ml is more like 2x that at 360ml actual. I realize the pressure switch is prob too high at this point but its a holley 5.5psi fuel pressure safety switch (what I had lying around with the lowest pressure rating).
Meth flow gauge/fail safe is AEM, IAT sensor is a new FAST brand, screw in with open element. Actually surprise it reacted as fast as it did.
This info is without the meth flowing as it just turned on when I let off. Just showing what heat soak etc is doing with no IC or cooling and a small/medium blower.
Going to look for a low pressure switch of like 1-2psi prob. Problem is I'm always in the 0.0" - 2psi as it builds boost so easily so I wanted it to activate higher than that so I'm not just blowing through my fluid. Timing is conservative at 13-14* so far at 8psi and 4400rpms.
First thing is dump that washer fluid. Use M1 VP mixed with distilled at 50/50. Next up the nozzle. 360ml is only 5gph. You should be at least at 8gph. Move the turn on to at least 3 psi maybe 4 or lower . You may just leave it the way it is as the better mix and higher gph will bring down the temps.Try this and you will see alot better temps. Timing is very conservative. Iats aside even hot at 160° with true 50/50 meth you could easily run 18° total timing under boost on pump gas. That washer fluid is garbage. It makes a distinct smell when its burned. Real methanol is the way to go. 8$ gallon m1 plus .89 cent distilled a gallon. So you have a one way valve before the nozzle? With a filter? That washer fluid is very dirty. I used to use it as first and my screen filters would fill up quick. Try this site you can get a switch cheap. Search Alcohol injection systems.
You should consider an MS3. The Stock stuff is like running a marathon in a potato sack.
If you had a MS3 you could create conditions like: when IAT is above a certain amount, and boost above a certain amount, etc, etc. can even do PWM modulated to increase spray with boost.
-- Joe
Thought about that, but due to my stock motor minus boost the stock PCM was basically already setup. Minor VE and timing adjustments. If I went MS3 I would have to tune from scratch for the most part. IF I was going wild combo I would have been more inclined for a aftermarket setup. I was originally looking at the holley HP but after research and calling holley they said i was better off with a dominator setup. At that price it was too much and would prob prefer the FAST XFI setup if I was spending the coin.
MS3 has lots of cool features from what I read. Maybe for the 6.0 build I'd set up to MS3 or equivalent.
07-08-2015, 06:06 AM
