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Goal: a mild-mannered street driver with a super stealthy 400-500 horsepower. will not likely see a racetrack, but will be looking to represent against the occasional late model Challenger, Mustang, Camaro. car is not a daily driver, but is is a good-weather car that i basically drive fast everywhere. ideally, i do not wish to tear into the engine to replace parts etc. below is a brief description of the combination on the car.
Relevant Current Parts:
L98 no overbore. 6K miles on build.
Speed Pro (i think) hyp pistons {9.3:1}
Scat forged I-Beam rods (don't judge me)
Aluminum Vortec (Fast Burn) heads {D-Ports}
Edelbrock Vortec lower intake
ZZ4 Cam (204/221 -- .474/.510)
Ported Plenum
AS&M Large Tube Runners (similar to TPISs, i think)
Dyno Don headers
Holley AFPR
Stock TB (twin 48 mm) with air foil
EGR and Smog equipment deleted
Hooker Cat-Back
700R4 with 25-2800 Vigilante Converter
What I Think I Know and What I Think I Need:
A turbo (62 - 70 mm)
an intercooler (Greddy - same part as TurboedTPI's car)
Wastegate
the rest of plumbing
at least one header/exhaust manifold that supports a turbocharger
larger fuel injectors (but not exactly sure what size i would need)
MSD 6AL ignition box
im thinking EBL flash ECM will be the way to go as well
i will be wanting to limit my boost to 10 PSI. should i set it a little lower to be safe, say 8 or 9?
Preliminary Questions:
i do not like to skimp on quality/reliability/longevity. having said that, why should i pay $700 + for a Turbonetics or other "name brand" Turbocharger vs. $2-$300 for an "eBay" unit?
where can i get a custom header/exhaust manifold for my F-Body with D Port heads? does such a vendor exist, or do i need to have a custom piece made (a slight pain in the *** in my area).
is there a source where i can get a Third Gen plumbing kit so i dont have to have all that stuff made (again, its a pain to get custom work done in my area).
rear mount turbo: easier or harder in the end? cheaper or more expensive in the end? stealthier or less stealthy in the end? any specific issues?
Preliminary Questions:
i do not like to skimp on quality/reliability/longevity. having said that, why should i pay $700 + for a Turbonetics or other "name brand" Turbocharger vs. $2-$300 for an "eBay" unit?
where can i get a custom header/exhaust manifold for my F-Body with D Port heads? does such a vendor exist, or do i need to have a custom piece made (a slight pain in the *** in my area).
is there a source where i can get a Third Gen plumbing kit so i dont have to have all that stuff made (again, its a pain to get custom work done in my area).
rear mount turbo: easier or harder in the end? cheaper or more expensive in the end? stealthier or less stealthy in the end? any specific issues?
ive never done a rear mount on an fbody but rear mounts are pretty pain free and simple as u are using ur exsiting headers/manifolds ex piping
i would visit orr's build thread for his rmt build
ebay turbos
if u go with a proven ebay unit u will have no issues.
both the gt45 and t76 are proven reliable units , dont try to use a gt45 on a rmt though.
the t76 with its options of .6x or .8x housings is much better
if ur going to intercool it the ebay 34x12x4 fits up in the nose great and is much much cheaper then the greddy unit .
if u do the rear mount do not skimp on the scavenge pump and or lines , this is one piece of the system u do not want to fail.
as far as the plumbing kits u just buy the tubing and make ur own the cold side is a cake walk and the hotside is minimal work if u do the rear mount.
if u want to do a front mount look at anethes kit for sale thats built around a t76 i think his kit was pretty complete if it didnt sell already .
with the d port heads theres no need for d port headers as long as the header doesnt cover and of the top of the dport.
thank you for the information. i will look into those other threads and anethes's kit for sale. rear mount is starting to sound sort of appealing. those ceramic coated Dyno Dons weren't exactly cheap.
Could try to find an ebay intercooler thats long but skinny to lay it down flat under car and add an airduct scoop to it. Procharger does this i think for their kits. Not ideal but does work better than nothing at all
Could also try a pusher or puller fan on the intercooler since frontal air flow is not existant. Birds are bottom breathers, like camaros but atleast camaros you can gut the grille and have direct air
Rear mount has its issues, mainly slightly slower spool so you need to run small diameter piping and wrap it up well to retain some heat. Without it, it spools quick at wot downshift but it could be better.
Like said, you have to run charge piping to front of car and that can be alittle difficult under the stock engine kmember. A tube k member would be amazing upgrade lol
If you went turbonetics hurricane, the 6668 with a .81 ar would work well in a rear mount. Should make your power. Dont want a gt45 back there it wont spool.
If you can do some fabrication you can make a front mount fairly easy. Just have to decide how you wanna do it. Absolute easiest is move battery to the trunk. Or gut out the driver side charcoal canister/cruise control stuff and you can put one near there. All depends how you wanna do it
That also is a good idea. Tanks are relatively smaller and as cheap as air to air. Only issue thereis you have to run a 3-5 gal water tank with a pump. You dont really need a exchanger in the system but it would be nice on a street car. Without it water will hit 120 deg or so on a hot day depending. Thats not horrible, iats still stay under 120 or around that in worse case scenario and thats plenty cool
I run cxracing 130$ coolers on my car and they work great. Just one of them would be enough for your 500 hp. 3 gallon cell with one of the smaller rule pumps and atleast 3/4" line would suffice. Bit moreweight than air air but works well and better when add ice to tank with a 5-6 gallon setup like i have
I have the ebay 31x12x4 intercooler on my t/a and it's not bad. Driving around the iat's stay about 15 degrees above ambient and raise up about 25 degrees from starting temp during an 1/8 mile pull. I have some fans to put behind the I/c but haven't gotten around to trying to see if they will lower the iat's or not.
My intercooler is mounted where the a/c condenser would have been. It stays cool just fine. As far as what brand intercooler you go with, you get what you pay for, but the cheap ebay ones are so much cheaper its really hard to justify paying so much more for a name brand one. If you went and bought the intercooler I have, your paying over a grand for it, the same dimension ebay intercooler goes for about $150 haha
Last edited by TurboedTPI; 10-17-2015 at 10:42 AM.
Could try to find an ebay intercooler thats long but skinny to lay it down flat under car and add an airduct scoop to it. Procharger does this i think for their kits. Not ideal but does work better than nothing at all
Could also try a pusher or puller fan on the intercooler since frontal air flow is not existant. Birds are bottom breathers, like camaros but atleast camaros you can gut the grille and have direct air
Rear mount has its issues, mainly slightly slower spool so you need to run small diameter piping and wrap it up well to retain some heat. Without it, it spools quick at wot downshift but it could be better.
Like said, you have to run charge piping to front of car and that can be alittle difficult under the stock engine kmember. A tube k member would be amazing upgrade lol
If you went turbonetics hurricane, the 6668 with a .81 ar would work well in a rear mount. Should make your power. Dont want a gt45 back there it wont spool.
If you can do some fabrication you can make a front mount fairly easy. Just have to decide how you wanna do it. Absolute easiest is move battery to the trunk. Or gut out the driver side charcoal canister/cruise control stuff and you can put one near there. All depends how you wanna do it
right now i'm strongly leaning towards "front mount."
ground clearance is a big enough issue as is without trying to run pipes along the entire undercarriage. also, that turbo being pressed between the tire and the gas tank makes me a little uncomfortable.
My intercooler is mounted where the a/c condenser would have been. It stays cool just fine. As far as what brand intercooler you go with, you get what you pay for, but the cheap ebay ones are so much cheaper its really hard to justify paying so much more for a name brand one. If you went and bought the intercooler I have, your paying over a grand for it, the same dimension ebay intercooler goes for about $150 haha
does your intercooler have a fan? the one on my TTA has a fan. in theory i could just look at the TTA parked next to my Formula, but the V6 leaves considerably more room to work with inside the engine compartment.
so you discarded you AC system? i would be willing to do this. i've actually considered yanking it just for GP - (well, less weight and parasitic drag), i just dont like the way the plastic housing thing on the firewall looks.
on those eBay vs. Greddy intercoolers, in the end, is the functionality, reliability, and longevity of the Greddy $1000 better than the eBay knock off?
so, basically, i need to find or fabricate a single header/exhaust manifold that will accommodate a turbocharger (and my D Port heads). that seems like its going to be the hardest thing to come by. the rest (it seems) is just a question of money.
honestly, my first inclination was in favor of a Procharger (or similar) for the simplicity. but i dont think i would be happy with the constant whine. when i saw the video of TurboedTPI's Formula doing the drive-by with the waste gate plumbed into the exhaust, i thought "thats ****ing perfect."
ive been using ebay intercoolers and turbos for years , short of a rock or something else going threw the intercooler theres no way to damage it
ive never had an issue with any of my stuff except for a blown oil seal on one turbo which was my own fault( that motor has 105 psi oil presure at redline and i didnt put a restrictor in it the first time around )
Where my intercooler is, the stock cooling fan pulls air thru it. I did remove the a/c. Currently there is no heater box on the firewall, but I do want to get an a/c delete heater box one day. As far as the ebay vs name brand intercooler, I don't have any factual data, ive just heard things on forums. Like they aren't as efficient, and flow my not be as good. But like I said, this is not factual. Ive also seen some very fast cars that use the ebay units, so who knows.
I have had a friend use a chiseled air to air and see 170 deg iat's in a firebird formula 4th gen. No real airflow to it. My car used a treadstone and saw 170 deg from 90 deg start in cold air in my camaro open nose. That was 24 psi. It was not as efficient as it should have been but the treadstone is several hundred cheaper
Local evo shop did a test on ebay unit vs garrett core of equal size. Dyno pull the ebay saw 40-50 deg rise i believe while garrett saw less than 10. I was impressed.
Ebays are good enough for most mild to medium boost/power builds. High end stuff passing alot of flow and boost you need a real intercooler core. Bell or garrett come to mind but its $$$
Just buy the xs power single turbo header. It works, fits the engine bay. If you have stock l98 heads it should bolt right up. Worst case you have to dimple the #8 primary.
Or you can do a cast manifold like I did (inspired by zacks build), but you need to learn how to weld cast.
I've run both air to air and air to water. You can find my threads showing mounting. Minor cutting and grinding for the fmic. When I went to auto trans it became too much sackup between rad, fmic, trans cooler that I went air to water.
thanks for the info.
I looked at XS Power's website. it looks like they have a couple of options. one being a shorty header, the other being more of a tuned-length looking header with a crossover pipe. both say they fit 82-92.
when you mention meth injection, do you mean instead of intercooling, or in addition to intercooling?
would the steering components be in the way of the down pipe? just wondering why it seems that no one mounts a single turbo on the driver side (underneath the "Turbo Bulge").
I can imagine the XS shorty (high mount) header and turbocharger mounted on the driver side under the turbo bulge. that would be cool. then I could replace the turbo bulge block off plate with some sort of mesh type deal for at least marginal functionality in the way of heat exchange.
would the steering components be in the way of the down pipe? just wondering why it seems that no one mounts a single turbo on the driver side (underneath the "Turbo Bulge").
Yes theres clearance with steering shaft and brake booster issues that makes getting a downpipe in there hard to do.
If you build a log you can space the primary off cyl 7 and 5 to allow a 3" pipe to slip thru. Thats how i did mine
Diggler I might be interested in the STRs and Turbonetics if he doesn't want them. Would be to move my tpi engine into the 49 so I'd have to measure for turbo position clearance. I am thinking of using air/water intercooling and keeping all plumbing behind the radiator, so these may put the turbos too far forward to make that work. I want leak free though and it is hard to beat a cast manifold for that.
Foward-wise, it shouldnt be too bad I wouldnt think.... I think the turbine inlet is about centered above #1 cylinder exhaust port. Might take some pics this weekend..... the turbos are small and makes for a very compact setup.
sorry it took me a couple days to respond to this. i WOULD like to see pics of these manifolds (on the car would be great as well). but at the moment, i am pretty much wanting to do a single turbo set up, not twin. but still, if you would like to post pics of what you have, i'd be interested to see it, and as ZZ3Astro pointed out, if i'm not a potential buyer, someone else may pick it up.
Where my intercooler is, the stock cooling fan pulls air thru it. I did remove the a/c. Currently there is no heater box on the firewall, but I do want to get an a/c delete heater box one day. As far as the ebay vs name brand intercooler, I don't have any factual data, ive just heard things on forums. Like they aren't as efficient, and flow my not be as good. But like I said, this is not factual. Ive also seen some very fast cars that use the ebay units, so who knows.
what are the exact dimensions of your intercooler?
i am willing to sacrifice the AC and all it's peripheral components, but not willing to sacrifice the heater. i didn't know that you couldn't have one without the other.
then there is the question of the serpentine belt. the idler pulley is attached to the AC mounting bracket, which ideally would go out with the AC compressor. then there is the problem of where else to mount the idler pulley and the fact that it would appear to need to be switched to a grooved pulley...
my belt drive as it currently exists:
i would have no problem getting rid of the AC, Bracketry, the Aluminum Canister Thingy, and the Plastic Protrusion on the Firewall. i'm pretty sure none of that would effect the heater.
how does one eliminate the AC (and related pulley and bracketry) and still run the tensioner? has this been done? is there a kit? i know that last one was a stupid question, but just sayin' i bet there is a kit for just suck a thing for my Fox Mustang.
how does one eliminate the AC (and related pulley and bracketry) and still run the tensioner? has this been done? is there a kit? i know that last one was a stupid question, but just sayin' i bet there is a kit for just suck a thing for my Fox Mustang.
some sort of "dummy pulley" maybe?
Linson here's what I'm doing with my twin build
On the PS I cut the AC/idler bracket to put the PS turbo right where the compressor was. Really being cheap aluminum it just has to be scored deeply and they you can bend and break the part that cradles the AC compressor right off. I was surprised it did not require cutting through.
There are pics on TGO and I have a belt number somewhere to run a shorter belt still using the idler. So no compressor or air pump but all the rest serp setup with the pulleys spinning in the right dir of course. However the shorter belt gives me an angle problem coming off the alt on the DS so I had to use a flex metal pipe for the upper rad hose and cut the therm housing neck to avoid the belt.
I've attached a couple pics of mocking up the hot side on the DS which I think is the more complicated side of my twin build. Give you some ideas so you can do the same!
I'm not sure your idea of venting heat from the back of the bulge will do much though. There is the boundary layer over the hood and the high pressure at the base of the windshield prob working against you.
hmmm we either scared her out of the idea or she's been busy building boost.
Ouch!
Thanks for bumping this.
This is where I'm at with this: truth is, I was a bit discouraged by some of the inherent difficulties involved with turbocharging these cars. forced induction is still the plan. However, I am now strongly leaning in favor of a Procharger for it's relative simplicity. Financial circumstances dictate that I will likely have to wait another year or sell my Fox Body Mustang - preferably the latter.
10-14-2015, 06:02 PM
