bogo

Im curious what air temperature (after the blower and in the intake) other FI users reach. I recently made some ¼ mile runs and the air temperature after the blower (v2 s-trim) reached 215 F (ambient temperature about 68-70F). Im injecting a 50/50 mix of alcohol/water but no IC. The nozzle (10 GPH) is placed before the IAT sensor. Im overspinning the blower slightly (reach about 54000 rpms vs max speed according Vortech is 50k).

There seems to be some slight detonation at 24 total spark advance @ wot and 6000 rpms but it goes away if I lower total SA to 22 (I run an aftermarket ECU and currently the IAT vs ignition retard table is zeroed out).

Opinions? Bigger nozzle?

Its a 381 cui, SP intake, 9:1 CR, blower cam in a C4

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Eh getting an accurate read on iat with injection can be difficult. Really need a good distance between injection point and iat sensor to allow proper evaporation with air. If its too close it wont pick up properly. Also meth can damage the sensor over time

215 is hot if on pump gas but depends on boost. I've run 170-180 on 20+ psi before but had to pull timing.

86CamaroDan

I run a V3 @ roughly half speed (7PSI@5700) and the blower itself makes very little heat(About 15* on a 2nd and third gear pull), But i suspect i am getting alot of heat soak - Seems like at a cruise im running about 150-175 on a 85* day. Im working out a CIA for the blower as the air filter sits ontop of the DS header

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yes in your case thats simply heat soak

You need test data on a dyno or track with piping cool and measure wot rise

86CamaroDan

On the hotter days where it hovers around 190-210 i can do a second gear pull and watch the temp drop.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Exactly how my turbo 305 was

bogo

The temp sensor is about 10" downstream of the nozzle and I run 98 octane (RON) pump gas ( think this equals about 92 octane PON).

I tried a 15gph nozzle and it really lowered the IAT. I only made a couple of pulls to redline (12 - 13 psi) in third gear (after adjusting AFR) and IAT now went down and was never above 140F (about 65F ambient) at max boost/rpm.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

Put the nozzle further away from where it is. After the blower is best. Water methonal needs 2 things to work. Distance and time. Your cooling 10 inches of space. K thermocouple is alot more accurate. You didnt mention what you had. What kit do you have and what supercharger and boost number?

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

My IATS are about 120-150*F on a heavy boost run coming out of the supercharger. Then into a FMIC and IATS come down to about 90*F and then I will see a drop when my 50/50
Meth is engaged it my sensor is only 4" from my nozzle. I'm spraying 250ml pre supercharger and about 500ml pre TB. My engine IAT sensor is located in the intake after the TB so it sees a complete mixed and cooled charge. I have a dual intake temp gauge from glow shift that allows me to run two IAT sensors which I put pre IC and then right after the nozzles. This allows me to see my inlet and outlet charge temps in real time. My filter inlet is over the pass header where the blower motor was so my tubing gets hear soaked.

I would say your nozzle size is about right but u might want to look into pre SC injection to help cool the head unit and the charge at the heat source. I bet if you spray pre SC you pick up some more boost as well. Post a pic of the setup so we can see.

Your temps are very high.

bogo

The nozzle is inside the brass coloured fitting at the 90 degree- right after the blower outlet

Its a C4 Corvette but the engine is similar to thirdgens (L98) so I use to hang around here since theres always plenty of knowledge and support to be found (and its not much action at the CF/C4 section any more...)
The blower is a Vortech V2strim and I reach about 13 psi boost. The IAT sensor is in the elbow (after the TB). Its a non oem sensor and is supposed to be real fast (reacting for temperature Changes).

I did try a second nozzle n the airfilter and inject into the impeller (2 GPH I recall). Cant recall IAT but there were not much increase in boost number-will have to check my log files.

I probably make things worse since I slightly overspeed the blower

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

Gotcha.

Not alot of room lol. But I see 2 issues. One is your meth nozzle angle isn't correct. You want it 90* to the incoming air direction.Also hard to see but have you verified the bung depth isn't too deep? Looks like its too deep and its killing the cone spray pattern. Take the 90* off and spray the system and look and see whats going on inside. Should look like a cone of fine mist. I had an issue with mine as well and my bung was not as deep as yours. The nozzle literally needs to be right at the surface of the tube Inner DIA.

Whats the IAT part #? Fast is a relative term lol. Open cage is going to be faster/more accurate but the sample rate isn't that fast lol. Youd be lucky to get readings every 1 sec and alot can happen in 1sec. My logs show my FAST fast IAT sampling a 5-8* drop over a 5s boost pull. So its pretty slow.

If your going to spray pre SC you need to spray ALOT! From what I read its like 10gph or more before the SC. Your piping is so short that you dont really even need the pre TB nozzle. Just squirt the 10gph or 14gph into the SC and everything that comes out will be still going to the TB. Gotta look at the MASS of the SC and how much fluid it would take to cool that. Its worth a shot honestly. Plug the 90* run the 10or 14gph pre SC and see what it does for your IAT temps.

With my SC it maxes out around 750-800hp and I have it maxed out pulley wise so I'm building heat like you are. I tried the meth only cooling and I found I just built up too much heat driving around out of boost and when the meth kicked in it helped but then it would just heat and heat. Best thing I did was add the FMIC which dropped the temps all the time, the Meth is added safety and to help keep the stock cast pistons/rings alive.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

What kit is this your using?

bogo

Thanks for the idea of checking the nozzle. I had a look (see pic) and it seems like the edge of the nozzle is just about protruding into the tube.

Im running an Autronic aftermarket ECU with a special IAT sensor that is very low mass; looks like this http://www.weatherornot.co/images/img0054.jpg and the internal logger is pretty fast (I guess about 10-20 Hz sample rate).

" You want it 90* to the incoming air direction"? A fuel injector should ideally be pointing towards the valve (and parallell with the air stream) so I imagine the same applied to injecting water hence the location.

Yes, probably I need an FMIC to Control the heat (or maybe a bigger blower) but space is limited so I have not given up on water-only yet :-)

bogo

If you are reffering to the water injection its an old system from Blowerworks.net. Two stage with a 100psi shureflow pump, works quite good-old fashion analogue technology
The blower kit also blowerworks (only head unit and bracket remaining now)

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

Maybe ought to consider upgrading. 100psi is nothing. Most new stuff is 220psi. Nozzles are alot finer spraying now.

bogo

Maybe, its more than 15 years old and the nozzle- even though German hitech- is normally used in oil burner applications...

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

Thats a funky injector! lol... weird. But you still need to check the flow pattern so you can visually see whats going on.

Verify spray pattern when installed in the tube. If its spraying a cone mist pattern that means 1/2 of the spray is going right into the side of the tube and therefore useless. The correct way to inject water/meth is perpendicular to the charge direction, this allows the full cone of mist to be pulled with the charge pressure/air flow. The only time this can changed is when spraying into the inlet of a SC or turbo as you can position the injector like 3" away from the inlet of the compressor wheel and spay the cone directly into the wheel... but even then perpendicular is acceptable. I will bet money you loosing out on a good portion of the spray pattern with it in your current configuration. It would also explain why your injecting so much to see results. I dont know what you expected HP is but 10gph should be good for like 500-600hp almost.

Fuel injectors don't inject a 10 micron water droplet lol and they are more like a "jet" setting on a hose with very little cone/mist. The fuel "disperses" as it slams into the back of the intake valve. And injectors pointing at the back of the valve is actually a bad thing... Its only like that in motors bc the tech wasn't available to push fuel directly into the cylinder. Carbs are better than Mutiport fuel injection mainly for air charge/fuel droplet distribution as the fuel has more time in the air charge, but bad as you can't control individual cylinder AFR. Now that we have the technology, production car 2500psi fuel pumps and direct injection fuel injectors in the cylinder heads has proven gains over injector behind the intake valves... still doesn't address the cooling affect fuel as in a carb setup but its a leap forward.

bogo

Maybe Im on to something here: I looked into my log files from the 1/8 mile runs this weekend.
The injection of water/ethanol is initialized by a separate map sensor at around 2-3 psi and the pump runs at 50%. At around 5-6 psi boost (I recall..) the pump goes to 100%. In the log file the Intake air temp is the upper curve, boost the lower one. I shift from 1st to second gear after approx. 72 seconds and the boost drops accordingly and Ive got no boost during approx. 0.3 seconds. This means the water injection stops during the gear shift and there’s no cooling for a fraction of a second. I suspect it will take some time for the cooling effect of the water to recover when the pump restarts. I will try to change the trigger point to give 100% pump flow already at low boost and skip the 50% ramping up.


I had a look at Devilsown and they offer some nice injection nozzles I might give a try.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

You might want to start spraying sooner. Dont loose the 50% ramp.

Start spraying at 0psi or atmosphere and have it full ramp by 5-6psi. Reason being shooting the full amount at lower boost will not have the affect your looking for like it would at at 6+psi. You could bog and blow the spark out etc.

Your IAT temps are still very high to me. ALso if I remember correctly your pump is not a newer high pressure pump correct? dont even try to use new modern nozzles if you dont have the new pumps etc. Snow, AEM, Devils Own, Cooling mist are all popular companies and all roughly use the same pumps, nozzles are a bit different but all do the same thing. I currently run a snow "sureflow" 220-250psi pump and I run a mix of snow nozzle and AEM. Both are really good nozzles with spray patterns etc. I also have devils own check valves and tank bunkheads and quality seems good.

The new nozzles need the high pressure pumps inorder to get the super fine mist. Pick up a cooling mist or devils own pump (about $100), and a set of 3 AEM Jets and 1 nozzles (about $70), $10 for 10ft of pressure line and call it a day. Much cheaper than buying a kit as you already have some form of a progressive controller. I run the AEM progressive controller and have it start at 0" and full by like 5ish psi. At 0" the pump is activated but their is very little flow if any, then I can see at 2psi like 300ml on the gauge and then by 5psi I have the full 750ml. The AEM controller I got is not the one with the internal MAP sensor, I got the one that uses a voltage input for MAP, MAF etc. I tapped into my stock style 2bar that the ECM uses for engine operation so I have the ability to activate pre boost ( i was activating by 7" of vacuum) to get extra cooling before boost starts to help pre cooling the components. This allows much more flexibility as you can tap into anything via the signal and set it to your needs. The issue was figuring out how to disable the system with the key on/engine off as im at atmosphere 0" so the system would activate. Putting and oil pressure saftey switch solved the issue to trigger the progressive controller... that way no engine running/no oil pressure and the system is deactivated with the key on/engine off.

The new pumps build pressure instantly as long as the system is air free. Not sure if your old kit/nozzles have check valves to prevent bleed down and siphoning.

I would not be comfortable running your IAT temps.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

That is an oil burner nozzle. The SS stamped on it means it is a semi-solid spray cone. There should also be an angle (such as 80*), and the flow on it (in US gallons per hour at 100 psi).

Hago also makes water atomizing nozzles (M series). They can be had in 1.0 through 15.0 gallons per hour. These are inexpensive at $8 - $10 USD and easy to get.

RBob.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

The fact that its a semi solid spray cone means its already at a disavantage over the new nozzles.

He should prob just pony up the $180 for a new pump, nozzles and hose and stop messing around with this setup. Hes not getting any real cooling from it and his IATs are stupid high.

bogo

The nozzle is manufactured by Steinen and spray a 45 degree solid cone (SS model): http://www.steinen.com/nozzle-types/
The "Gaseous Intercooling" system was supplied by blowerworks.net.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

I'm not sure how the spray pattern is with those solid cone jets. Tried to look up pics. You should pull it and get a video of it or something. I also wonder how fine the droplets are. The droplet size and spray pattern are the most important aspects of a meth nozzle. I would doubt that the spray pattern is as "fine" as the nozzles dedicated for these setups. THe finer the droplet the more heat is aborbs and quickly.

Your showing a 180* F min IAT temp and they got as high as 221*F roughly while spraying. Thats a 40* increase at 195kpa or 14psi... most people believe with no cooling you have a 10*F increase per 1psi of boost. So 14psi - 140*F in just charge temp increase. While I feel like that formula is a bit over estimated I think your spray was doing something but not nearly enough. Maybe you need more distance for it to work better but you have none which only leaves you with injecting pre SC. Otherwise running multiple smaller nozzles will give you the finest spray pattern/droplet and thus the most cooling.

I would not be comfortable with those temps either way. My IAT temp chart in my PCM only goes to 190*F.

bogo

Yes, I agree-IAT is too high and something should be done to lower it. I really would like to stay with meth only, its a pain to install a FMIC in a C4 Vette.

I checked out devils own website and their nozzle works if pressure is above 40 psi. My pump output 100 psi so I recon this is sufficient at least to find out if a “modern” nozzle lead to any significant improvement and its really easy (read low cost...) to do this test. If things improve then I might replace the whole system to a new +200 psi system. Unfortunately, it will probably take a few weeks before I have the nozzle here.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

If the pump can keep up go with a higher flow rate nozzle. Can also use a 50/50 mix of methanol and water.

RBob.

bogo

Tried that, see post #1 and 7. Felt like I lost alot of power (also verified it by some 3rd gear WOT runs with a 10hz GPS and the car went slower despite same AFR, similar advance as well as adding a few degrees).

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Curious, how close in the nearest ED95 supplier by you over in Sweden?

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

I personally like a k thermocouple to read intake air temps. Usually the iat sensor is in the lower manifold in one of the runners to give a better reading. You have to remember when your shooting the psi into the manifold you have to compensate for the air pushing back into the nozzle head. Plus a check valve which I assume you have right?

bogo

To me, ED95 is ethanol for diesel Engines-Is this the type of fuel you were referring to: http://www.sekab.com/biofuel/ed95/?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Yes, it is an admixture of E85, which at one point I hear was very abundant in Sweden through SEKAB. But with the oil embargo's gaining leverage, I am assuming E85 isn't as common as it once was in Sweden? I bring this up because if you have access to ethanol, you may consider switching fuels. The increase in IAT seems to have no negative effect using ethanol even without an Intercooler, not to mention 11.5:1 being ethanol's sweet spot in terms of static compression used with boost pressure, so plenty of room to utilize...

bogo

ED95 is available pretty much everywhere (well at least in the more civilized part of the country) but E85 you still find in almost every place where you find gas.

Alot of people with real high power output are running E85 but I have been reluctant since I probably need to revise the whole fuel system. Still, I might have to reconsider....If I can get away without an FMIC I would be quite happy.

bogo

this is interesting....

bogo

There is one checkvalve between the water container and the pump (on the inlet side of the pump) and as I understand,a checkvalve inside the pump itself.