Gumby

They are both, they come with bolts n hole drilled to be bolted in but they recc you also weld then in. There is only 1 kind of Alstons SFC, just installed mine last weekend.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...rs-solved.html

Dante93GTZ

iTrader: (5)

Alston's website shows them for the 82-92 Camaro/Firebird at $100 plus $18 shipping for "weld in" and $142 for "bolt on" style... thats why I ask; I always see Alston's listed for like $200, but their own site shows only $100........ I'm confused.

Here's a link to what I mean on Alston's site:
https://www.secureway1.com/alston/in...?categoryID=97

I saw your in your post about TDS workin' with ya. I just browsed their site last night and was amazed at how inexpensive some of their parts (bolts, misc hardware parts) were...

Gumby

You want the bolt in ones, the weld in are just some square tube, and not what you see in this thread or on my car. But you can also weld them in.

Bolt in's are $142 plus an extra $56 + shipping. looks closer atthe drop down box on the Alston site.

And TDS said they would work with me but it didn't work out and and Im glad it didn't as I saved $40 in the end buying from Dough Herbert Racing

$190 shipped, cheapest price you can find, even cheaper then direct from Alston.

http://www.dougherbert.com/subframec...?cPath=402_437

upandcoming

iTrader: (20)

well guys..I got to take a ride in his car and I got to say that thing sticks to the ground...ordering mine as soon as I make my move down to Fl...I couldnt believe the differance they make....very impressed...

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

thanks man..... panels worked out great... yeah i suggest this mod to anyone who is serious in handling and overall sturdiness....

lonsal

iTrader: (2)

The Alstons are designed to be bolted in, but can be welded in instead. I offer the installation kit as an option in casae you just want to have them welded in.

Lon

Dante93GTZ

iTrader: (5)

I wound up finding a set of MACs (very similar design to Alstons) on Ebay for $61, so I snagged 'em. I will test fit to see how well they hug the seat pans. If they don't work out, I'll resell 'em and get the Alstons. I just couldn't justify paying $50+ for shipping on 'em from Alston. I plan to mate these with the Spohn ones too - After reading about them and I know personally 2 guys that are in the *7's (yes, the 1/4 mile)* with 'em, I figure they'll be just fine.

Oh yeah, about the 7second cars... http://www.pscaracing.com/Rules/rule...ildstreet.html

Two brothers from Idaho, one's an 86 IROC, the other is an 85 SC. Friend's of mine.

yankeecarman

iTrader: (9)

Will they fit a 91 model with that boxed section running down the sills? I didnt think they would.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

yes they will, the alstons are inboard running from the inner frame section in teh rear to the trans subframe, more or less designed for verts.

yankeecarman

iTrader: (9)

I know the Alstons will but I didnt think the others would fit the later models?

yankeecarman

iTrader: (9)

Spohn have a July 4th special on. $169/set. They rarely have a sale. Good stuff too. Check on this site for their ad/

Dante93GTZ

iTrader: (5)

I saw that on their ebay page. Wish I had $200 right now.

Gumby

Ill only say it a 3rd time, the cheapest place to buy them is from Dough Herbert
less then $190 shipped

There is only a $9.99 handling charge, shipping is "free"

Dante93GTZ

iTrader: (5)

Still... I got these MACs for $86 shipped - Can't beat that!

Guest

You dont need a fancy and not necessarily accurate laser level to get level points to put your car on or check the car. In this case, it would probably be best to set up a water level and it can be done cheaply.

scooter

iTrader: (11)

I was going to say the same thing. Some of that clear poly tubing and some water is just as good as a laser lever

Gumby

and a few drops of food colorin to make it easier to see.........

Tony89GTA

iTrader: (7)

88fastgta I have a question about your BMR subframes, do they sit right next to the rocker panel pinch weld? I remember reading, someone said there was a big gap but just want to make sure that they can be welded the length of the rocker panel without any problems.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Good info on this thread.

I have a question with regard to leveling the car prior to welding on the SFCS.

Lets suppose you get the car leveled out, how do you know, or account for, and subsequently correct, a longitudinal sag in the chassis?

Seems like you could get the corners all level with respect to each other but there could still be a sag in the middle. I personally am aware of at least three hard top thirdgens that looked fine but had ( and have ) transmission tunnel buckling/cracks as evidence .

Gumby

Ya know I wouldn't bother less your super **** hehehehe
I just put mine in the air with the suspension loaded and put them on.
Long as your ride hight looks even all around, I say its good.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I'm super ****.

(quote worthy no doubt)

Gumby

Then id have it done by a shop with a frame machine, as that is the only way to have the car in perferct alignment.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

What does this frame machine do? I'm not familiar with one.
Does that work like a chassis jig? Pardon my ignorance but from what I know about that, they use suspension mounting points to set dimensions which seems similar to the method dean has outlined. The only difference I think is that on a jig you can set precise absolute measurements and not just relative to other suspension mounting points. I can see how on such a setup you could theoretically see a sag in the chassis as a slight shortening of the wheel base and probably even more so the higher up you take your measurements on the chassis.

On the aircraft I work on we have jigs that are assembled to tight tolerances that hold a given airframe in a fixed position as per engineering blueprints when doing repairs.

It would be nice to have some engineering blueprints for the third gen chassis to at least have something to measure against if not build a jig for.

I've always wondered if it would be possible to get blueprints and or engineering data from GM. There has to be some point where they don't care if you have it anymore.

Gumby

this slug fest will explain more
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...r-install.html

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

There is nothing in that thread about a "frame machine", blueprints, jigs, or anything else relevant to my posts.
I just see Dean reiterating his position and stephen lacking a basic understanding of mechanical principles (which is typical of his posts)

Guest

Try using google and searching, easy enough to see what devices are available. As for what someone is going to use you'd have to see what that shop has, there are a lot of various machines out there in use. And yes there are blueprints, but I've never seen them posted here.

Because of prior damage I had mine put on a rack before installation. It was a little off, but nothing to write home about.

Sad to see the post closed. There are downsides to either method. If you follow Deans method you need a lot more attention to detail and accuracy if you really want the chassis evenly loaded. The difference between being precise and being accurate. I was considering his idea and if you really wanted to be accurate you would need identically sized and placed solid elements where the shocks and springs are mounted, and load the car from where the center of the tire would be. Otherwise you're just changing how the suspension is loaded and introducing a different source of 'error'. The only real gain would be having a more consistent or even error, making the preload identical.

FueledSoul

iTrader: (18)

... books are nice

89_RS

The biggest source of error in either method would be the area in which you work. Most garages at home are sloped to drain out the door, something around an inch or two over the length of the garage.

Stephens method is more practical, but with basic home construction in mind, the car is going to be loaded based on slope and once you weld in the SFC it will be in that shape permanently. Now you can correct for that some in the way you weld the SFC in, but not enough to change that amount of load.

Deans method is more precise, but hard for anyone that doesn't have the tools or patience to pull it off. Basic construction tolerances for concrete are around .01' which is roughly equal to 3/32". If you were to do a grid leveling survey of the garage, you would see it sloping up from the door and varying up and down by about 3/16". Now you have to jack the car up at 4 different points and get them all within .01' of each other and verify it at least 3 different ways. And the laser level at your local hardware store isn't going to be accurate enough for that and I highly doubt most people are going to have access to or knowledge of how to use a $3k leveling instrument to figure it out.

The easiest thing to do is get a 4-point car lift and jack it up at the frame jack points. But by then you'd have to take it to a shop because I highly doubt most people are going to spend $5k for a one time use item.

Gumby

But that thought that a car on a drainage 1-2* slopped drive is gonna be at a different ride hight then a lvl one is false.

it will be loaded just the same front n rear.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

You should re-read deans method, he levels the car using a laser level. The slope of the floor is irrelevant, he adjusts the car using shims which will compensate for an un-even floor or jack stands. You could also do it with a water level as mad max mentioned.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Is that in the service manual? If not, could you get a scan of that up? that would be awesome.

I have a service manual, I just loaned it out to someone and I'm still waiting to get it back after like 2 years.

Gumby

A frame machine will put the car in perfect alignment like it was designed for, as no production vehicle is 100% straight by the master plans.

For pro racing they do go to such details and is super ****, n that thread was full of **** stuff to consider, as you said your **** about stuff

Our school got lucky to get one for motorcycle C.L.A.S.S. and still is the only place with one in 3 states as its only for pro racing. [ but we used it to fix wrecks] Factory made bike frames are up to an inch off in any direction, before being raced they straighten them, and I say a car is gonna be much similar. They come with book of specs, that you then use mirros n lasers to check it and it far beyond just making it lvl, a twisted car made to sit lvl on stands, will still be twisted.

If your gonna be ****, a frame machine is ****, it will be 100% perferct dead on right.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I guess we have a different idea of what detailed is. In the field I work in, people's lives depend on very specific detailed instructions and execution of those instructions. I wouldn't exactly call that thread detailed.

I did a google search on frame machines, still have more searching to do but so far there is very little on how a chassis technician actually straightens a chassis. If anyone has a link that would be great. It would be nice to see if any techniques can be adapted to the home shop.

The only thing I saw mentioned is that the chassis machine has pins designed to be inserted into holes in the chassis, the machine uses hydraulic rams or jacks to pull a chassis to the point where the pins fit into the holes. Seems like you would have to bend the chassis past where you wanted it so that at rest the metal would spring back to the point where you want. I haven't seen much info on that much less any dimensions or hole locations online. Maybe that picture attachment above is documenting this, can anyone elaborate?

Guest

I believe after 2 years that would be considered a gift. In other words... GFL getting it back.

I think 89_RS was only referring to the sloped floor in the case of putting them on without leveling the car or sitting on the tires, but not all floors are sloped. Mine is, but the one at my dads is not.

Guest

Yep, its not that difficult. It does not require exotic tools. Its much harder to do a home alignment.

If the frot left and front right suspension points are level to each other laterally....AND....the rear left and rear right suspension points are level laterally at the same time as the fronts are level (note: this does NOT mean front to rear need to be level, just when the fronts are level side to dide at the same time the rears are level side to side) then we are golden.

Trouble lays when you load the chassis with spring pockets because the spring pockets can be manufatured where one is lets say 17" tall from the LR suspension point and 17.3" tall from the RR suspension point. This is where the suspension faulters and WHY you do not want to weld the SFC's into the chassis with the chassis loaded onto the suspension. Tweak one to fit the talready tweaked other? I say no, fix them---afterall, we are "hot rodding" aren't we or are we just welding them in there Stephen so we can tell all of our buddies we have them just to boast about shiny new parts?

Now about the suspension spring cans being different from the suspension mount points? Stephen should know full well about weight jacks fixing this problem AFTER the chassis is straightened out like I outlined.

Hey Stephen, I never said I was Professional in NASCAR, I crewcheifed a few seasons on a Craftsman Supertruck team locally at Toyota Speedway amounst many many other things I have done in life in racing. I was asked to do so by someone who discovered I had a vast knowledge of suspension and chassis dynamics- I gave it a shot and my rookie year took the kid to 3rd place out of 41 trucks in the overall championship- I would say that gives me a little bit of bragging rights Stephen- its forever forged on my resume- You got a resume Stephen? TGO co-founder and post locker?

Guest

Pablo, I would tend to agree with you about your assumption on having the bend the chassis further that needed so that it rests in the position needed when released.

FueledSoul

iTrader: (18)

HOLY ****, I cant wait for the thread about what type of welders to use or how to program a robotic welding system to weld them on for you or cryogenic freezing the chassis and sub frames

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

This thread contains pertinent and certainly interesting/important information from knowledgeable members. Please don't allow personal annoyances to outweigh the benefit of the information.

JamesC

89_RS

I did read it right the first time. The laser level at the hardware store is only going to be accurate to plus or minus 3/16" in elevation which is just fine for a home builder. Not many people in general have access to an $8k Spectra Laser level, and at that it is accurate to only plus or minus 1/16" which is just fine for 99% of all leveling applications, but no where near accurate enough for this kind of leveling. Sure you can adjust for variances in elevation with how you weld, weld in one area to pull another into the desired position, but it'd be near impossible to level out 1/16" of error with a welder.

So to get an acceptable level of error that can be adjusted for with a welder, you'll need an optical level with a level rod that can be read to .001' or .012". Once you have that level of accuracy in your elevation reading, then you can start to make accurate calculations on how to level the chassis for welding.

Am I saying that any of the other methods are wrong, No. Thats making do with what you got and they all are a heck of alot more accurate than welding in the SFC while the car is resting on its wheels. But if you want to have a very scientific and accurate process for leveling a car, you'll need optical leveling instruments and a whole lot of time.

Sorry, but this is my inner construction surveying nerd coming out. Alot of what I just described is how they locate optical tooling on an assembly line for automated production and the tolerances there are a couple thousandths of an inch.

As for what Gumby said about the amount of angle in the floor. I ran the math and the floor, if sloped up from the garage door, is 0 degrees 28 minutes and 38.8 seconds of angle which isn't noticeable to you or me at all. But if you are super **** about things like this, and I am, you take all the time needed to make sure you're doing it right.

All this leveling talk has got me excited about welding in SFC's when I get the chance to. Need to remember to ask my friend if I can borrow his dumpy level when I get to that point.

Tony89GTA

iTrader: (7)

I"ll probably be wielding in some subframes this year just wondering with Vetruck's method can the jackstands be setup with a long bubble level and a good eye or do I have to go out and borrow surveyor equipment? Think one of my old bosses has a expensive self leveling laser level I might be able to grab to.

89_RS

I had completely forgot about the bubble level. If you have a long enough one, it would be almost as close as using a leveling instrument.

Guest

If you're worried about .01' then it would make a lot more sense to use a water level. At least with a typical survey grade level at the short distances its going to level itself and correct for any minor errors you may have in 20 feet, even out of calibration. I would not put that kind of faith in a bubble level.

89_RS

True, but with a bubble level you can get alot closer than you would with just trying to eyeball it. I can go to Home Depot right now and buy an 8' bubble level for $99 then get some 8020 form extruded aluminum pieces to make a level that will be accurate to a .0005" and will work on any size of car I can think of. That is certainly within almost anyones budget.

http://www.homedepot.com/Tools-Hardw...atalogId=10053

But if you're like me and have access to the super nice toys, and know how to use them, why not use them.

You can get 4' of 8020 aluminum on Amazon for $35 shipped. And if you have a drill press and spare some cash for a basic 1/2'' 2F endmill, you can make almost anything you'd need for that level.

Guest

I will tell you from first hand experience you are wrong about the little hand held laser levels. THe one I have used for better than 10 years is called Robovector. It is accurate +-1/4 in 100'. The precision work I do requires dead accuracy in an average 8' room and often sometimes up to 20' rooms that are circumfrenced and have to match up.

On a car that is 6' wide at most? they are perfect and much more accurate than any bubble level- and I have LOTS of those too at my disposal.

And on the note of Extruded aluminum, Here a 100lb aluminum scale rack I built for the racecars that will accept 105, 108, and 110" wheelbase racecars that weigh up to 4000lbs and is completely portable. I built this about 3 years ago on a friends CNC Bridgeport machine he was teaching me how to use when I was layed up from a bad accident and had alot of free time. We leveled this at a few tracks as well as both his and my garages with the level laser I listed above. The car was always scaled to a baseline of 52.4% cross as was accurate whenever we ported it to another location and began alteration setups from that baseline. That laser level is dead nuts accurate for this.

Dean

89_RS

Dean, as to the use of leveling instruments and their accuracies, I'll have to agree to disagree with you on that. I've been using levels for several years in construction, including the exact one you have. Anything that can be done quick and dirty like dirt work or things that require very little precision, I use a laser level for my measurements. But when it comes to things that have to be superflat and accurate like steel, concrete, or vertical control points (things that have to be located to .012" or less), nothing will ever beat an optical level or the bubble level. Bubble levels are like laser levels: the more accurate they are the more expensive they are. However the difference is that a cheap laser level is $50-$150 depending on what you get and a cheap bubble level is $5-$15 depending on what you get. No level out there is dead nuts accurate, they all have varying degrees of relative positional accuracy or tolerance.

As for the extruded aluminum, if you need something strong, light, and don't mind it being a little bulky, its the material of choice.

Guest

I dont think so. There is not a manufacturer out there that claims them to be anywhere near that accurate.

89_RS

Not to be condescending, but if you had read the link I provided, you would have seen that they do claim to be accurate to .0005" per inch or .006" per foot or .048" over the length of the level. If you follow basic leveling procedures and double or even triple level your car stands, you will be well within that .048".

This heavy duty professional box level includes the True Blue vial, an Empire trademark. This exclusive vial has patented blue bands that highlight the edges of the bubble making them easier to read. Its solid block construction won't break, fog or leak. Each True Blue level is not only accurate to .0005 inch per inch but also is guaranteed to that high standard of accuracy in all 10 working positions of the level. This level is made of a heavy duty 6061 aircraft quality aluminum chassis. Funnel shaped high contrast bezels frame the vials and allow more light to enter the vial area for easier reading. The working edges are precision-machined to ensure a high degree of accuracy. The dual-density shock absorbing end caps protect the level body ends from damage when dropped. Lifetime warranty.

• True Blue vials are accurate to within .0005 inch per inch in all 10 level and plumb working positions.
• Heavy duty 6061 aircraft aluminum chassis.
• 300 degree view top-reading level vial.
• Solid block acrylic vials won't break, leak or fog.
• MFG Brand Name : Empire
• MFG Model # : E70.96
• MFG Part # : E70.96

Guest

Right so in 8 feet its only accurate to about 1/16", not the 0.0005" your post I quoted says. Two completely different numbers. On top of that you're relying on how accurate you can read the bubble, which introduces a possible error all its own. Try some different thicknesses of skew under your level and find out how accurate you can actually read it from what you think is level.

Gumby

tri pod laser lvl ?

Guest

Thats the thing. A laser level you might buy for $99 is going to be just as accurate as an 8' long Empire "True Blue" $99 level, not less accurate as was previously suggested by 89_RS. They both have basically the same level of accuracy. If you want to squabble about it then he says Empire claims (in the ideal world) they are accurate to 0.048" in 8 feet if you read their bubble and line correctly. Home Depot sells a laser level (self leveling as well) that claims to be accurate to what is 0.066" in 8 feet. So we're talking 1/64" at best and I'll bet you'd have a hard time duplicating that in reality. Many people cant see that well. So over the wheelbase length of the chassis, you have the potential to be ~1/16" off using either method. Then you have to ask yourself, does that even matter? If you ignore the possible slope you may have in your floor over the 101" wheelbase of the car, you're only going to be off a little less than 3/16" or about 3x as much possible error if you used some device to level your jackstands, assuming the floor of your garage is relatively close to what its supposed to be. I'm going to venture out and say these cars were never built that close to begin with, they were built a lot like the floor the car is sitting on.