When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
The last post on that link by madmax says it all. Autox course, street tires vs street tires, fairly equal aftermarket parts additions to several vehicles in question, and the lap time results to prove it.
You take your "A" compound autox tires on a road course and you will eat those tires in about 10 laps- FACT. You need "R" compounds hence why companies like BFG and Hoosier make an A which is softer for Autox and an R which is harder in Road course use as in Hoosiers A6 and R6 tires. R tires would last 3 times as long.
Tell me I am wrong that a 60mph sweeper yielding 88 feet per sec of lateral grip will render less tire wear than a 30 mph sweeper at 44 feet per second of lateral wear? And I am wrong? I don;t think so- common physics.
Wrong. Autocross eats tires more than a road course. Typical 10-15 turns on a road course will not go through tires as much as an autocross.
Pat, My quote was," You start running your car above 50 mph on higher speed road courses other than the slow speed autox and time attack and you will 1) eat up those tires quickly" So As addressed in my last post just above this- 10 turns at autox low speeds will not waer the tires as fast as 10 turns at higher road race speeds. Your comment is taken out of context ansd is wrong as a result of it.
Originally Posted by slow305
"Only" 12 seconds? LOL. 12 seconds is gigantic. The other car is eating your lunch at every single corner. Every single straight.
12 seconds is NOT alot on a 2 minute course where I am comparing a 135hp street car with higher curb weight (driver included) then the top CMC car and also half the hp trying to run 1/2 the distance of a 2.8mile roadcourse at speeds abouve 100mph. no, 12 seconds is not alot and is very respectable considering areo push as well as street tires vs race tires. The TOYO tires the CMC cars run are still a RA1 value (RA1 is a racing tire whether tit is DOT rated or not. My 280TW Goodyears are NOT a race value tire, they are normal performance street tires that yeild abourt 25,000 miles range) you are lucky to get 5k out of those toyo's becasue they are soft. They are a much better race course tire so I am at the handicap not them.
Originally Posted by slow305
Link to the the times and results of all your races?
MADMAX posted them agaisnt cars equal on the same course. Might you want to relook at the link YOU posted. It shows a very good reference from a third party, not you or I. It also references his quote that the next coses 3rd gen to me on street tires were wider tires and also every performance part known to these cars attached- that car out of the 9 other V8 competitors was the closest on a 65 second course by a 4 second margin. The worse was over 12 seconds on a one minute course street car to street car (That is where you should have put your '12 seconds is gigantic')
WE CERTAINLY KNOW I DID NOT BEAT ALL OF THE V8 3RD and 4TH GENS WITH MY POWER, RIGHT? SO Pat, What was it then? Handling? yep. Based on power I actually was handicapped about 4 seconds on a lower speed autox, cuase I will say for certain that I could have EASILY ran 4 seconds faster with 300 hp rather than 135hp on a 3350 curb weight car and driver.
Originally Posted by slow305
Your point, as always, is that you will always skew facts so that your little V6 is always somehow the better choice than anything on the planet.
I did not say on the planet, I said against other 3rd gens- your agitation and frustration is leading you to assume this.
Originally Posted by slow305
How can you get a thirdgen to handle like a Corvette? Sell the thirdgen and buy a Corvette.
Again, Pat, you are confusing 'HANDLING' with 'OVERALL PERFORMANCE'. I do handle as well if not out handle most corvettes if not all of them on street tires. I do not outperform them becasue I lack the drivetrain because of Calif Smog restrictions preventing my daily driver street car from being legally built to compete fairly at the same or less dollar amount.
The Corvette times on California Speedway are of race vettes on racing tires running as high as 20 seconds faster than I. Thats also 8 secoonds faster than the fastest CMC car- WHY? because they have unrestricted power to propel them down the front straight and around the bank at over 150 mph. Fair fight? No 60K Vette plus maybe 20K in mods against a 30K modded Camaro with a restricted motor due to daily street use and California legal restrictions? Not hardly a fair comparison in OVERALL PERFORMANCE, but certainly a great comparison in HANDLING. I catch the CMC cars and the Vette cars in every corner that does not hamper me with lateral acceleration like the main bank turns 1&2 do. They leave me badly on every straight like a dragstrip, especially when their power allows them almost 40 mph higher straight away speed.
I have shown two different photo sequences as proof of this car slightly gaining on a full race vintage GT40 on that track, as well as out braking and eating for lunch a 2006 BMW M3 comming off the high speed bank and braking down into the 30 mph chicane. I eat him for lunch by about 3 car lengths differnece in that braking zone and corner entrance. We were almost side by side comming off that high speed bank at 120 mph- me trailing him by a half a car length, and entering the next 30 mph chocnae two and a hlaf car lengths in front of the M3. Thas enough proof in my book. You got something better?
This V6 I had was not built for track use, it was built for daily street use with a normal street alignment even- and was very occationaly taken to a race track just to play with and see what ift could do. THe results are impressive to say the least considering it was a grocery getter... So I now ask you Pat, when you put your 3rd gen V8 on an autox course, is it with race tires and race alignment or can you leave it untouched for your wife or girlfriend to drive it around town 1000 miles over the next month? didn't think so. I desevre more respect.
Autocross is probably harder on the steering parts, but definitely not tires unless you're burning out every turn. There is more weight / load on the tires the faster you go and the more grip your tires give you, so it only makes sense that a road course would wear out tires more than lower speed auto x.
One thing different with the Z06 is the body - it's made different - made from composites or aluminum or something (I forgot), not steel like the others. GM has an entire different stamping facility for the Z06 chassis/body. So it's alot lighter weight than the other vettes and has different flexing characteristics.
You are correct on that. For the C6's at least the frame 1/3rd lighter than the normal vette frame. I think most of the weight gets added back with heavier duty equipment.
The headliner in the weight-loss program is the aluminum frame that weighs 136 pounds, which works out to a third less than the regular Vette's heavier but stronger steel unit. To retain chassis rigidity, the Z06 eschews the removable roof for a fixed cast-magnesium structure and another magnesium piece for the engine cradle.
Weight was also shed by using carbon-fiber floorboards and front fenders and liners. The end result is a "mosaic of materials," says Juechter. When all was said and done to the Z06, it weighed in at 3147 pounds, or 141 less than the base Vette. To put that in perspective, Ferrari's all-aluminum F430 weighs 3380 pounds, and Porsche's carbon-fiber $446,000 Carrera GT weighs 3146 pounds.
My 82 vette seems to out handle my 91 camaro.
Both are ls1 cars with c5 wheels. Camaro has full tubular suspension everything.
I attribute it to weight difference. Vette weighs 3000lbs. Camaro is probably around 3450 at this point.
Vette engine also sits completely behind the front wheels so it's probably a better weight distribution.
I have worked on several vettes from a flock of LT1 powered C5s to a few LS1 C6s. Never driven a ZR1 or a Z06. The Vettes I've driven are very smooth and nice to drive. Giving the impression of driving a high performance vehicle, while still being smooth and nice enough for a middle aged woman to enjoy. None of the vettes I've driven can compete with the cornering ability or power of my "optimized" IROC. The brakes are about even either way with my recent brake upgrades. The Vette's ABS is nice I'm sure for those who drive their cars in the rain. I don't.
I'm sure that the new ZR1 is an entirely different story but then my total investment so far is only about 1/3 the ZR1's sticker price. By the time I reach 1/2 the ZR1's sticker price, I'll keep up with it just fine. Then again, a middle aged woman would be scared of my car, just like my wife is. It's loud, very fast and unpredictable if you're not used to driving it, and it rides hard like a race car should.
To my freinds who drive Vettes: I'm only referring to factory stock Vettes as that is all I'm familiar with. I'm sure that there are modified Vettes out there that would run away from my IROC.
I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread, the 2009 ZHZ was awesome but I still handled better in the IROC especially now with tons more upgrades than when I drove it back in 2009. If you compare $ wise, the corvette will almost always be more expensive than the IROC, even if the IROC is faster or sounds better. That's just because it's a corvette with many luxuries you won't find in a brute force modern muscle car like a 3rd gen
I was thinking about this after I wrote my original post. The Vette, at least since the C5, has aluminum suspension components to reduce un-sprung weight, thus improving tire contact to the road surface. Composite mono leaf springs for a smoother ride. The C6 has the trans mounted rearward to improve weight distribution. These are major engineering enhancements over what the 3rd gen F-body recieved. Still, with the right combination of chassis and suspension upgrades. The 3rd gen corner carves better than the Vette. The Vette will of course have better ride quality. I for one like the stiffer ride of my IROC. I like to feel the road under my tires.
IMO, in terms of predictability, steering feel, stiffness and actual corner grip, the 3rd gen gets the win. In terms of comfort, and ease of driving and obviously power (LS3 vs. 305TPI lol) the Vette is better.
What I like from the camaro, is its stiff ride as well and the road feel when steering. The solid axle rear end is better for handling IMO than Independant rears. I have driven many (and own one 2008 dodge charger which is a 5 link rear in dependant suspension) independent rear ended cars and like the comfort of turning on the street over bumps but don't like the floaty feeling that make it harder to determine when the tires will break loose and as Vetruck mentioned a false sense of sticking to the road whereas the solid rear end will be scary as hell but atleast be predictable (with the proper bushings and suspension geometry and PHB/LCA angles, etc.) Solid rear ends handle like crap and hurt your butt and teeth over bumpy roads though, so that's why manufacturers use independent rear ends now, for the mass market, who can't handle solid rear end axles lol
I was thinking about this after I wrote my original post. The Vette, at least since the C5, has aluminum suspension components to reduce un-sprung weight, thus improving tire contact to the road surface. Composite mono leaf springs for a smoother ride. The C6 has the trans mounted rearward to improve weight distribution. These are major engineering enhancements over what the 3rd gen F-body recieved. Still, with the right combination of chassis and suspension upgrades. The 3rd gen corner carves better than the Vette. The Vette will of course have better ride quality. I for one like the stiffer ride of my IROC. I like to feel the road under my tires.
I like the thundering rolling Brick feel of mine too. But I've been in my friends C4 and it feels a little more refined (Smoother) over bumps and bad asphalt than my Camaro but also smaller knee room and you feel an inch lower. But you still feel the rumble & the Vibrations of the engine which is what I love to feel in it.
Assume you're referring to my statement about corner grip.. Vettes handle good don't get me wrong. I'm comparing the 2009 ZHZ that I drove. It's not a Z06 I thought I made that clear what I was comparing to in earlier posts. And yes, I wasn't referring to a stock IROC, nor a mildly modded IROC, but one with all the suspension goodies that brings it up to the level or a vette or more. The vette, stock, has aluminum stuff all over it (engine, chassis, suspension, etc.) whereas the camaro can possibly have this if its owner decided to dump thousands into it and make it like that. Will it ever handle better than a corvette C5/C6 stock? I think the answer is definitely yes. But yes, if your saying that stock for stock the Vette will handle better than an IROC, then I agree with you fully, not even a question.
There are aluminum suspension stuff for 3rd gens, just more for racing and less for street. The corvettes will always be more comfortable on street and bumps that's for sure. But considering a C6 Z06 is like 50k +, dumping half of that in a 3rd gen could get you up there in the handling department, with a few thousand more maybe handling better.
Drop a few hundred pounds, re-enforce chassis, wider tires and lightweight wheels, lightweight and adjustable suspension components, adjust geometry to optimal settings front and rear, and you'll have one hell of a corner gripping 3rd gen.
I have put this to the test. On a series of tight corners between the shop and my home, in both a C5 and a C6. Both of the Vettes swayed much more than the IROC(remember to check out my sig. my IROC is nothing like stock) and they both lost grip so that I had to let off midway through the corners. My IROC takes these corners, gaining speed the whole way. Honestly, I have never been able to get the IROC to lose grip in a corner, not without throttle steering it. Of course the Vettes both ride much nicer and smoother, due to their lightweight suspension members. However, that's not what I was judging in my comparison.
The cornering capability of a properly modified 3rd gen has already been tested and proven many times. Back when these were newer cars, Popular Hotrodding did a project called "Project 1g". Using an 88 IROC as the base they did just readily available and common upgrades including subframe connectors, springs, shocks and struts. They didn't upgrade the sway bars as their car already had the 34mm and 24mm bars from the factory. Then they ran the car on the 100ft skid pad where it pulled 1.1g. The only two cars in the world, priced under $100,000 that beat it were the Vette Z06 at 1.2g and the Viper RT10 at 1.2g. The base C6 trailed behind at something like 1.0g.
This test didn't even touch on any of the more advanced mods that Hellz_wings has mentioned. Lightweight steering knuckles, lightweight tubular control arms, weight reduction. These are all items that could push the cornering rate even higher and will definitely cure much of the harshness of the 3rd gen suspension. As I said, I like the harshness. I have to slow down for rough railroad crossings and speed bumps but so what. I have built a number of NASCAR chassis with friends that compete. I like how they drive. My car is the closest thing to one of them that I have ever driven. Exactly what I was going for.
Damn this is a good thread!! All good points presented about weight differences and front and rear weight bias and brakes and steering ratio. But I have read literally every single post in this thread and no one has mentioned the single biggest reason the vette has so much less roadfeel and feels so much more stable at speed then than an IROC...CASTER!! Thats it boys...a c6 vette runs about 6.5 - 7 degrees of positive caster. IROCs run along the lines of 1 - 1.5 degrees of positive caster. This results in the vette being extremely more stable but has **** for road feel. With the IROC being the exact opposite. This is alot more noticable at higher speeds. Just different strokes for different folks...the driver is the MAJOR key here. Also the vette runs more negative camber which results in more stability. I would love to see what a 3rd gen v8 car with 7 degrees of positive caster and 2 or 3 degrees negative camber would do against a c6...I'm betting it would be damn close as long as drivetrain power/gearing was comparable. I agree with everyone else that IRS is overrated...I hate it matter of fact...it feels very soft...doesn't communicate with the driver like a live rear axle does. Again...damn good thread...TONS of good info!
The ZR1 presently hold the record for the fastest time around the Nuremburg Ring, that's ahead of all other super cars to include Porche, Farrari, Ford , etc , ect. The C4 ZR1 still holds the world record for sustained speed of 175mph over a 24 hour period. And don't forget the C6R, Jay Leno has one, the Calloway Corvettes and the Lengenfelter Corvettes. If you can built yours quicker, there is someone who has already built a quicker Corvette, for a price.
The Corvette has both IFS and IRS and has used aluminum suspension parts since 1983, there is only one 1983 Corvette and that's in the Corvette Museum. I can spend gobs of money on my Camaro and Corvette and my Corvette will still handle better on the road, you just gotta know your car. I get in my Camaro and if feels like a tank compared to my Corvette. It's nice to dream though.
for the record the zr1 was surpassed mearly a week after it claimed the fastest time by the zonda r iirc, and yes corvete racing is succesful, however corvette racecars bear very little similarity to corvette production cars in that there built form nothing by katech in mich, not using an existing corvette
for the record the zr1 was surpassed mearly a week after it claimed the fastest time by the zonda r iirc, and yes corvete racing is succesful, however corvette racecars bear very little similarity to corvette production cars in that there built form nothing by katech in mich, not using an existing corvette
how is it not a production car when you can buy one? i know they aren't road legal but there not race legal as they come either, and the 599xx is for all intensive purposes a production car as much as the enzo the fxx or the 430 they're all available for sale
The point is, I didn't see a ThirdGen anywhere on the list. I was stationed in Germany for 6 years back in the late 80's and early 90's and my Camaro got nowhere close.
yeah, sadly i dont know of anyone whose ever had a totally stock thirdgen and run it round the ring, i'd love to see it and compare it to other results from period cars, but was the ringeven open to the public like it is now back then?
haha wow man! thats alot of corvettes u drove there.. im sure the new ls9 vette would have been a match for ur camaro? just the technology alone in that car is ridiculous!
on a side note, my gf is persian lol! so i feel ur pain! lmao.. u speak farsi by the way?
Farsi no Pashto yes
LS9 is a great car.. I like corvettes especially the ZR1, but still like to beatem.. They get alot better gas mileage and you can't match the heads up display... I would like that for the 3rd gen
yeah, sadly i dont know of anyone whose ever had a totally stock thirdgen and run it round the ring, i'd love to see it and compare it to other results from period cars, but was the ringeven open to the public like it is now back then?
Yeh, for a fee you could run your car around the Ring. It was a little hairy but we would all go down to the Red Light Disrtict, The Wall, afterward, get drunk and go window shopping. The women would get angry if you wandered around looking but didn't "buy". Good times.
By the way, ThirdGen Camaros go for premium prices in Germany, and the women love them. A buddy of mine sold his 86 for $20,000 before he left for the states.
Last edited by camarorookie; 09-03-2012 at 11:20 PM.
haha wow man! thats alot of corvettes u drove there.. im sure the new ls9 vette would have been a match for ur camaro? just the technology alone in that car is ridiculous!
on a side note, my gf is persian lol! so i feel ur pain! lmao.. u speak farsi by the way?
Farsi no Pashto yes
LS9 is a great car.. I like corvettes especially the ZR1, but still like to beatem.. They get alot better gas mileage and you can't match the heads up display... I would like that for the 3rd gen
...this is a great discussion and I am re-learing many things to help the next 3rd gen purchase I'm about to make even a better performing car...
...however....
To answer the original post directly...NO.
They are 2 distincly different cars in heritage. They come with 2 distinct set-ups, pros, cons, and limitations...I've driven vettes, and even own an IRS 1968 E-Type SII...they all have their fun points...
...now if the OP was "could you spend money and have a 3rdG hold its own against a stock Corvette in terms of *insert metric here*" ...OK...yes you could...
...but pound for pound, upgrade for upgrade...they will always be 2 different cars.
...what I am getting out of this is how to get the best darn corner absorbing, fun, and sure footed handling I can out of a 3rdG...and that in and of itself is priceless...thanks!!!!
The point is, I didn't see a ThirdGen anywhere on the list. I was stationed in Germany for 6 years back in the late 80's and early 90's and my Camaro got nowhere close.
That's because I have not built or driven one on Nurburgring yet
Vetruck
Arrogant? yes
Confident? hell yes
GIve me a 100,000 budget and Ill give any Vette a run for there money there. (I talking against the 100K plus ZR1 using their same "so called street tires" custom made just for that run
That's because I have not built or driven one on Nurburgring yet
Vetruck
Arrogant? yes
Confident? hell yes
GIve me a 100,000 budget and Ill give any Vette a run for there money there. (I talking against the 100K plus ZR1 using their same "so called street tires" custom made just for that run
Too poor? Yes
But you could join the Army, get stationed in Germany and you'll be that much closer. Or do we also need to add,
The Corvette is an amazing car, a performance bargain in the automotive world. The C6 Z06 is probably the most capable sports car of all time IMHO.
That said, no one sprinkled magic pixie dust on these cars to make them perform. They are working on the same principles that any other car performs.
Can a thirdgen handle like a Corvette? Well I guess that depends on what you mean by handle.. That's a pretty broad term that for many people encompasses ride quality, NVH, and purely subjective notions about how the car feels to the driver.
For most though, handling would largely include (if not mean) road holding ability.. and road holding ability is not subjective. We have a battery of tests from the skidpad, slalom, and lap times to determine outright how one car fares against another in these terms.
Can a thirdgen outdo a stock corvette in road holding ability? Yes, easily and cheaply. Can it do all the things a corvette does? I.e., provide all of the road holding, track times, and still be comfortable, and have all the amenities? Not as easy and cheap but still cheaper than a new corvette.. but at that point you don't have much of a thirdgen left.
Yes, they set a blistering Nurburgring lap time. The nurburgring is a power track. You have massive straight aways.. A car like the Zr1 is hitting 180mph on the straight. That takes a lot of power, and a lot of brake heat capacity. On a shorter track these advantages diminish significantly.
I know a lot of people like to cite the nurburgring, and while cool, I don't really see the point other than to just bench race the euro fan boys. It's a huge track where you are spending a whole lot of time not doing much more than holding the accelerator pedal to the floor. From a driver standpoint (as in the number of movements and actions required by the driver) it's pretty slow.
I have a 91 Z28 that I paid 1600 dollars for. I spent maybe 4000 dollars on suspension work to include wheels and tires. Anyone can duplicate the modifications I have made with the right tools. It has a 235 hp LB9 and I can say for certain it would be slaughtered on the Nurburgring by a new vette.
The flip side to this is that I can tell you for a fact that my thirdgen will outhandle (as in road holding) any corvette this side of a C6 Z06-Z07/ZR1 (which I have not seen run at my former home track). The track I am talking about has 7 turns in 7/10ths of a mile. The horsepower advantage for the vette is diminished significantly.
I have run a best time of 45.38 and a good friend of mine who is a phenomenal driver just took his stock C5 Z06 and ran a 47 flat which is probably the fastest time I've seen posted for any vette at this track (up to and including standard C6 models).
The big difference is that he can go home with the AC blowing cold, have a quiet chat on his phone, and not worry about road reflectors feeling like pot holes when he runs over them.
So it comes down to how much of a standard street car do you want to retain and how much do you want to spend. Want to do it cheaply? I can give you the blueprint but don't expect it to ride like a Cadillac.
The Corvette is an amazing car, a performance bargain in the automotive world. The C6 Z06 is probably the most capable sports car of all time IMHO.
That said, no one sprinkled magic pixie dust on these cars to make them perform. They are working on the same principles that any other car performs.
Can a thirdgen handle like a Corvette? Well I guess that depends on what you mean by handle.. That's a pretty broad term that for many people encompasses ride quality, NVH, and purely subjective notions about how the car feels to the driver.
For most though, handling would largely include (if not mean) road holding ability.. and road holding ability is not subjective. We have a battery of tests from the skidpad, slalom, and lap times to determine outright how one car fares against another in these terms.
Can a thirdgen outdo a stock corvette in road holding ability? Yes, easily and cheaply. Can it do all the things a corvette does? I.e., provide all of the road holding, track times, and still be comfortable, and have all the amenities? Not as easy and cheap but still cheaper than a new corvette.. but at that point you don't have much of a thirdgen left.
Yes, they set a blistering Nurburgring lap time. The nurburgring is a power track. You have massive straight aways.. A car like the Zr1 is hitting 180mph on the straight. That takes a lot of power, and a lot of brake heat capacity. On a shorter track these advantages diminish significantly.
I know a lot of people like to cite the nurburgring, and while cool, I don't really see the point other than to just bench race the euro fan boys. It's a huge track where you are spending a whole lot of time not doing much more than holding the accelerator pedal to the floor. From a driver standpoint (as in the number of movements and actions required by the driver) it's pretty slow.
I have a 91 Z28 that I paid 1600 dollars for. I spent maybe 4000 dollars on suspension work to include wheels and tires. Anyone can duplicate the modifications I have made with the right tools. It has a 235 hp LB9 and I can say for certain it would be slaughtered on the Nurburgring by a new vette.
The flip side to this is that I can tell you for a fact that my thirdgen will outhandle (as in road holding) any corvette this side of a C6 Z06-Z07/ZR1 (which I have not seen run at my former home track). The track I am talking about has 7 turns in 7/10ths of a mile. The horsepower advantage for the vette is diminished significantly.
I have run a best time of 45.38 and a good friend of mine who is a phenomenal driver just took his stock C5 Z06 and ran a 47 flat which is probably the fastest time I've seen posted for any vette at this track (up to and including standard C6 models).
The big difference is that he can go home with the AC blowing cold, have a quiet chat on his phone, and not worry about road reflectors feeling like pot holes when he runs over them.
So it comes down to how much of a standard street car do you want to retain and how much do you want to spend. Want to do it cheaply? I can give you the blueprint but don't expect it to ride like a Cadillac.
You are absolutely right. And it depends a lot on the experience of the driver and how well they know their car. Most of the old fogies that drive the C6 around here can't drive to save their life.
The Corvette is an amazing car, a performance bargain in the automotive world. The C6 Z06 is probably the most capable sports car of all time IMHO.
That said, no one sprinkled magic pixie dust on these cars to make them perform. They are working on the same principles that any other car performs.
(...).
The big difference is that he can go home with the AC blowing cold, have a quiet chat on his phone, and not worry about road reflectors feeling like pot holes when he runs over them.
So it comes down to how much of a standard street car do you want to retain and how much do you want to spend. Want to do it cheaply? I can give you the blueprint but don't expect it to ride like a Cadillac.
True...no pixie dust...but they are 2 distinctly different cars as you outline here. Yes, you can get similar numbers in g's and E.T.'s, but how you get there is different and the end result...well...one is distinctly less comfortable...
...overall, and excellent post!
Originally Posted by SlickTrackGod
(...)
GIve me a 100,000 budget and Ill give any Vette a run for there money there. (...)
The question would be...why? 100K...what are you planning on installing???
Wrong. Autocross eats tires more than a road course. Typical 10-15 turns on a road course will not go through tires as much as an autocross.
I wish I lived in California.
"Only" 12 seconds? LOL. 12 seconds is gigantic. The other car is eating your lunch at every single corner. Every single straight.
Link to the the times and results of all your races?
Your point, as always, is that you will always skew facts so that your little V6 is always somehow the better choice than anything on the planet.
How can you get a thirdgen to handle like a Corvette? Sell the thirdgen and buy a Corvette.
Pat
I wish you did too. Id take your money.
12 seconds in not a lot at all on a 21 turn road course 2.8 miles long. R compound tires on a 40 sec autoX course are good for 3 second margin- triple that and you have 9 seconds. Now take in account Calif Speedway has a very long front straight as well as two substantial infield straights that come off low speed corners and my little old 135rwhp Camaro was giving up about 10 seconds a lap on power.Lets see, standing 1/4 mile at 16 seconds compared to cars doing it in 13 seconds... then take into account for rolling speeds? I give up on average 1/2 sec to 3 sec every time we hit the throttle ...If you can count that was 21 corners.
I take the AC off that old car and all the create comforts, shift weight around in the car like the CMC cars do, cut the underhood for weight, remove windows, etc, then add a turbo and Id eat the top car for lunch.
If you recall, I was speaking of comparing my car to the guy that ran 1st place, not last place who I was beating in lap times with a 100% street car V6 135 rwhp and 8" wide DOT street tire grocery getter.
Road course is far harder on tires then autox. Autox is 3 laps of 40 second runs with a min of 5 min cool down between each run. Road course is sustained heat in tires of 220* + for 20 mins generally. 1 road course will eat tires that will last a season in autox.
By the way, STG is Vetruck Look at my resume. That ****ing V6 Camaro would eat pretty much anything around a corner- moreso then anything I currently have and built today years later.
You start running your car above 50 mph on higher speed road courses other than the slow speed autox and time attack and you will 1) eat up those tires quickly, and 2) that chassis will be all over the place with suspension slop fighting those wide tires at the higher speed strains of braking and corner bobble.
You need to get that car out on California Speedway for a run on the 2.8 mile road course and see if you can beat my 2:07 laptime where I was on mear 8" wide street tires and a 135 rwhp. You would be surprised when you ge tthat thing up to speed how much slop you will have and how much brake trouble you would have expecially coming off the high speed bank onto the back striaght 30mph chicane down from 120+.
The 'best' of the CMC racecars (3rd gen Camaros) are only running about 12 seconds faster than me on full race tires and V8's stripped to a weight of 3000 lbs. THe vettes are running 20 seconds faster than my little V6.
edit- Correction- I ran a 2:09. The day prior to the CMC race I was speaking of back in about 2005. THe next day the CMC car field range race lap time bests from 1:57 to 2:11. I ran 2 seconds faster than the slowest full race CMC car on race tires vs my little full interior weight V6 on street tires. My suspension goodies are certainly doing something becasue I was on crappy street tires on a very large road course with a 123mph max speed for a V6.
My point? I am chasing alot more than that last .1% with all my suspension mods. You put a stock V6 on that track and I will bet big bucks I will beat it by over 15 seconds even if it had the same exact tires I had. Now put racing tires on it and I will still beat it by 12 seconds minimum. put all the suspension goodies under it? Then you have my times.
I'm in total agreement with dean here... There is such a thing as too much tire.. Especially when it starts to destroy your scrub radius. Right now I'm running 295 30 18 r888 front and rear... Granted there is not one thing on this car that's stock or hasn't been tweaked on a little.. But there comes a point where it's too much tire... I'm running a 3.1v6 ... I have driven v8 cars .. It's a huge difference as well... As of right now I couldn't be happier with the set up on the Rs.R Camaro ... Thanks to dean with helping with some of the geometry changes. Even on a 295 it's a corner craning monster any larger of a tire and I'll be starting to toss my scrub radius out the window and high speed breaking with be a chore
I've driven one C3, three C4, three C5 & two C6 Z06's and probably three dozen 3rd Gen fbodies of all flavors and two dozen 4th Gen fbodies of all flavors. Mod for mod none of those cars will stand up to a C6 Z06 on road course, unless you basically built a race car out of C3, C4, C5, 3rd Gen f-car or 4th gen f-car. The C5 Z06 would also be very hard to impossible for one of the earlier cars to surpass mod for mod unless the older car gets built into a race car. A well driven C7 Z06 near impossible to equal in a 3rd gen. With that said a poor or ordinary driver in a C6 Z06 or even C7 Z06 will be very beatable.
My 91 RS has enough mods and power if well driven and on equal rubber to give a C5 or C6 a good run but the c6 z06 can fit 14 inch wide tires in rear as built. My RS would require a good bit of work to get 14 inch wide tires on. Ordinary c5 & c6 can fit those 14 inch wide tires very easily. I don't have any delusions against a lesser driver my RS could hold its own but equal drivers, the newer corvettes will be faster on a road course.
Love your 3rd Gen for what the car is but don't kid yourself the car was designed in late 70s and early 80's and GM chassis & frame engineering has advanced significantl over the last 30 years.
Last edited by Arctic White 91 RS; 06-20-2016 at 09:47 PM.
I owned the fastest C3 in autox in the nation for 6 years back in the late 80's and early 90's (Documented I took down Hobaugh and his father both co-driving/ Took down Mark Thorton, Byers, Chem, etc etc- I was very well known but never competed seriously because I get bored easily)
With that said, I have also tracked a Katech Z06 that a good friend Tommy M owned- I can tell you my old C3 would beat it. I will also say my old Camaro V6RS (which put in pretty much every bell and whistle including my knowledge and own setup skills) and it would out handle both of them. It would get its *** kicked in a drag race, but it pulled higher g's and transitioned better then both my C3 and the Katech (the Katech was on Motion coilovers, etc)
I speak from first hand experience as well as a professional resume & reputation. These cars have unbelievable abilities in the correct hands. Reason they are not the fastest slice of bread on an autox course compared to all cars is their size. On an open road course? Lookout any other production car when you give me dollar for dollar to build one.
When things boil down....they all are just metal and 4 wheels. It is all about weight, balance, geometry, and platform stance- what makes the 3rd gen shine is its overall platform is exceptional once the weights are distributed better and understood.
Corvettes are nothing more then a mid-life crissis mans street race car. Building them does not improve much where as the 3rd gen needs the proper knowledge to expands the chassis capabilities.
Last edited by SlickTrackGod; 06-22-2016 at 10:44 AM.
Here's the Katech I mentioned (Along with Black mamba and my Vetruck) Sadly for Tommy I beat his best time in my truck- however when I drove his Katech I beat my truck that day by 4.5 seconds. My truck would not hold a candle to my old Vette- and my old Camaro would handle better then the Vette did. Probelm I had on autox courses with the Camaro was it was my wife's( Ex wife now) daily driver I built specifically for street use for her- it had a 2.8 V6 with only 145 rwhp. My Vette put down 542 RWHP so the Camaro, even though handled better- could not make up the difference in power- not even close.
Those not knowing m old Camaro- this was it. 60-0 in 102 feet. 1.07g's documented on Devores police skid pad. MANY people underestimated this car- I took a lot of people's money having fun with that little V6
Now the car we are trying to plan and take to Nurburgring is a fellow member here that moved close to me in So Cal from Istanbul Turkey 2 years ago. I mentored him and put him on my NASCAR team. Berk wanted to race so we bought a Dodge neon to run in some local Night of destructions in the enduro class in front of 7000 fans. The car immediately went to first place of 33 cars- most are seasoned racers and seasoned cars. It was like taking candy from babies for me. Won every race- brought the car home and cut it up because AGAIN, I was bored. Berk moved to Minnesota after finishing UCLA, but is going back to Istanbul in a few months for a while for a job. Berk has build quite a radical 3rd gen with a GM 502 in it. THe plan is for me to fly back there and stay with his family for several weeks and shake this car down, then take it up to Nurburgring for a few runs.
Berk and I in the infamous Joe Dirt Neon
I'm in total agreement with dean here... There is such a thing as too much tire.. Especially when it starts to destroy your scrub radius. Right now I'm running 295 30 18 r888 front and rear... Granted there is not one thing on this car that's stock or hasn't been tweaked on a little.. But there comes a point where it's too much tire... I'm running a 3.1v6 ... I have driven v8 cars .. It's a huge difference as well... As of right now I couldn't be happier with the set up on the Rs.R Camaro ... Thanks to dean with helping with some of the geometry changes. Even on a 295 it's a corner craning monster any larger of a tire and I'll be starting to toss my scrub radius out the window and high speed breaking with be a chore
Nick, I hope to hell you put a Turbo in that car like I should have done with mine. This car is turning out to be quite the animal.
Just put in a Turn One 670 box (12:1) with matching PS Pump, and the Astro Van shaft mod. That should help the handling, a little.
Off to Road America for the weekend - WC Ferrari and Indycar weekend. Berk should come over for the weekend (5 hour drive).
Nick, I hope to hell you put a Turbo in that car like I should have done with mine. This car is turning out to be quite the animal.
Thank you dean, I'm still bouncing back and forth on a twin or compound turbo 6 setup or a super charged set up... Or do an all aluminum destroked ls1 ,, basically the modern dz302 that will turn close to 9k and make around 500horse
With a tubular k member and possibly a carbon hood and move the battery to the back... Should equal the same weight as the v6 but spin higher and more power.. Plus the v8 short stroke scream...
03-19-2011, 04:53 AM
I would like that for the 3rd gen 
Look at my resume. That ****ing V6 Camaro would eat pretty much anything around a corner- moreso then anything I currently have and built today years later. 
