falconman

I have heard a lot of controversy on which is better handling, stock vs stock, 3rd vs 4th gen. F-bodies. What do those who have driven both think is better?

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

3rd

unknownghost

My 4th gen (2000 Z28) handled better than my 3rd gen (1989 IROC) does, but not by a lot. And the suspension in the 2000 was in "better" condition than my IROC. Once I get the suspension in the IROC fixed up, I honestly think it may handle better.

camaronewbie

I own both (1992 RS and 1997 Z28). There's really nothing at all about the 4th gen that I like better than the 3rd gen.

The ONLY advantage to 4th gen handling that I can tell after 3+ years of driving both is "parking lot handling" - the 4th gen rack & pinion setup doesn't bind, stress, and make all the noises that a 3rd gen does.

eseibel67

I can answer this. I have a 2001 TA (w/WS6 suspension), my son has a 1988 GTA (w/WS6 suspension). Both cars are meticulously maintained - tires, brakes, shocks, suspension and steering components are all mint, and the steering fluids are vodka color.

Both handle very well, but in terms of cornering power, I would give a slight nod to the third gen. It feels like a go kart. The fourth gen is a bit easier to drive however, it just rides and steers smoother.

Convoy25

iTrader: (3)

that.

i was surprised at how tight the steering was in the 4th gen.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I like the steering feel of my 4th gen but the 3rd gen I have should handle better. Thirdgen has all suspension done and 4th gen just received lowering springs/shocks for a much stiffer ride but the sway bars are thin. Once i replace those and some other suspension parts, it should handle as well.

4th gen to me feels kinda heavy but i have no idea how much it weighs. Estimated power vs trap speed indicates it aint a pig but likely heavier than a 3rd gen by 100-150lbs. My 3rd gen is now heavy with the turbo stuff but before when it was all motor + spray, it was 3520 in street trim with me in it and big *** 19" and 18" wheels. Those aint light.

I havent really pushed the 4th gen much however. In stock form it sucked compared to the 3rd gen on narrow tires Irocz vs non-ws6 suspension is no comparision.

I got good tires on both cars, very sticky compounds. 255's up front 295's rear on the 3rd gen, 275's up front/315 drag radials on the rear of the 4th gen. They are nitto 555r's so they are really a sticky street tire and still have stiff sidewall to handle well.

bigj350

iTrader: (1)

Ive had both and I prefer the 3rd.

paul_huryk

With the same suspension parts on the same sized tires, a third gen will handle better in terms of testing. But the 4th gen will probably ride better and have better steering feel.

Check this out: third gen with some aftermarket suspension parts handling 0.996g on stock sized 245-50-16 street radials:

http://thirdgenfbody.wordpress.com/2...aft-july-1990/

toomany

This is just my experiance, but stock for stock I'd give it to the 4th gen. My 94 TransAm feels tighter than any of my 3rd gens. Could just be the way it steers and gives the feed back from the road. I have never driven a low mileage 3rd gen though.

Convoy25

iTrader: (3)

if you think about it suspensionwise, not much really changed. the steering changed as well as the tire/wheel size. you can literally take the LCAs and panhard bar off of one and put it onto the other.

Lonnie P

The difference is in the front suspension & the overall weight/balance of the 2 cars.

I had a 3rd gen & traded it in on a 4th gen. I almost hurt myself trying to do the same things I did in the old car. Even though the rack steering was nicer, the 4th was not as predictable & would not stick as well. After driving the same roads repeatably with both, I missed the 3rd gen enough that I had to get another to go around turns with.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

And your car must handle insane with the mods you have done!

Kennerz

I have both a suspension modded 3rd (bilstien,spohn,275 tires,subs, oem 35/24 sway bars) and a suspension modded 00' SS (koni yellows,front and rear control arms, subs, large sways 32/21). So from experience I can say the low speed handling of the thirdgen is superior, but the high speed handling of the SS is much better and more stable. Mod for mod the 4th handles better overall IMHO. That said the low speed feel of the iroc is great and will dart arround moderate speed corners much faster it feels (may not be reality). The front end of the 4th gen sticks much harder and will not understeer the same way the 3rd gen will and can't be overdriven as easily.

Lonnie P

It does pretty well. My next mod will be stiffer rear springs so I lower the rear roll center more. Just got some De-la-lum bushings for the front & some extended ball joints to alter the front roll center slightly. Recently got a set of 4 V710's in 315/35-17's for all 4 corners. They are too big for the front, the turning radius is lacking, but it sticks well.

86irocterror

i remember some articles where they tested 3rd gens and 4th gens. i do believe an iroc pulled like .93 and an ss 4th gen pulled .92 or something like that. and remember the 4th gen had 30mm wider tires. they still claim the iroc besides the vettes are gms best handling cars ever made. i do not have 1 thing stock on my suspension on my iroc, koni yellows, prokit, spohn subframe connectors ,spohn trq arm, xmember, spohn rear control arms with heim joints, panhard bar, wonder bar, umi a arms spohn strut mounts, hotchkis sway bars.....thing takes corners like a go cart on roids!!!!!

RyanEricW

This I feel is true.

karl's-92'-z28

iTrader: (5)

The turning radius on a 3rd sucks, but handles better than a 4th. I think it has a lower center of gravity. The 4th has rack & pinion & hard to judge quick turns, cause the steering is a lil more sensitive that a regular steering box. But if you have a 3rd gen, get a wonder bar so the steering box doesnt rip your off your frame.

itsMikey

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Been in my friend 96 v6 camaro... I know it wasn't a performance car by any means but it really did not feel that great..

Also drove a 2009 Corvette ZHZ (the hertz rental model).. That thing handled really well and was predictable but didn't give the same direct feel as my iroc does. Hard to say.. High speed stability on the IROC with all the right mods is up there with any new car.. even better i'd say.. Not one vibration at 120MPH in mine anymore, but when I got it before all the mods my top and bottom teeth used to grind at 65MPH lol.

I'd say it's all in the mods, unless we're talking stock for stock, then I would assume 3rd gen is better because it's lower and has a stiffer front suspension, but lacks comfort and stability of softer front springs and a R&P steering.

paul_huryk

I want to point out that even though steering feel is something that adds to confidence in going around turns, it really does nothing to add to lateral acceleration and overall handling capability. BMW purists would scream murder on this, which is too bad for them.

myzblubyu

I had owned both, infact I sold my 95 TA vert to buy and build my 90 IROC. So far my IROC has lowering springs, new struts/shocks, polyurethane bushings, adjustable panhard bar, spohn tubular front a-arms, lakewood LCAs, and frame connectors. With all of this it would still be a toss up with the TA on a curvy road.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

What type of lowering springs do you have? Many lowering springs have crappy soft spring rates..

myzblubyu

Eibach pro kit along with J&M camber plates...

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

The pro kit is still a decent set of springs, should still handle very well. I also think IROC's shine more on a skidpad rather than on a slalom.

myzblubyu

I think that my current rear tires also hurt the handling. They are 295-50-16s and I have them on for the look. When I put my summer tires on it I should be able to tell better. But my old convertible handled awesome and even better with the top down.

strigi86

i like how all of them drive but 3rd gens feel lower, tighter, stiffer to me, GM put more emphasis on handling in the 80s when the horsepower was down

i have the same opinion on corvettes... 90s the horsepower went back up but an 84 outhandles all of them

88 350 tpi formula

iTrader: (9)

stock vs stock (higher end trim) ws6 vs ws6 the thirdgen clearly wins. the 4th gen has softer springs and smaller sway bars front and rear. they had alot more roll and wiggle in the rear... the lower profile wider tires some later 4th gens had helped but the 3rd gen had better control.

Biggd4355

I've replaced the struts, shocks, put on new tires, replaced all bushings with polyurethane, and the car does not give an inch in the corners. I have had a 1968 Camaro and it didn't corner at all.

rusty vango

having driven both . i find the 3rd gen more sure footed. the 4th gen seems to be somewhat "wallowy" wheras my 86 handles like a go cart . i would liken the 4th gen to a cadillac in terms of its cornering ability

cosmick

It's not about easily-changed spring rates, the real issue is the front suspension, because otherwise they're identical. And the 4th gen has the advantages. It has no struts to bind, so there's no stick-slip, and the steering rack is lighter and simpler than the 3rd gen's recirculating-ball steering box, pitman arm, idler arm, etc. Then there's the 4th gen being true coilover, so a softer spring rate, which helps ride quality, gives a higher wheel rate, which reduces body roll. Thus using a sifter spring might seem wallowy, but really controls the tires better, keeping more of the tread pressed harder into the road more of the time.
Lots of sources for different spring rates and anti-roll bars, for both generations.
Also, the 4th gen has better ergonomics despite the girly seats, so once you install racing seats, the 4th gen won't tire the driver, which improves handling.
CoG is the same, but the IFS determines the front roll center. Here again, the 4th gen has the advantage. Until you do something stupid like lower it. It doesn't make a measurable improvement because it ruins the roll center, it may look better, but since it changes the angles of the front control arms, lowering the front of a 4th gen gains you nothing.

cosmick

I've seen where the dynamic lateral g of a 4th gen on 245/50R16 Goodyear Eagle GSC tires was over 1.06. Never seen comparable for any third gen on comparable tires.
I do recall an old test where they tried all different sizes on the stock 16x8s, the 245s worked even better than 255s. Too much tire for the wheel width. Well, a 275 on a 9 is more tire:wheel than a 245:8. That answers that.
Back when the '84 'vette Z51 amazed the world with 0.95g on Goodyear "gatorbacks", nobody cared that those tires wore out, they cared that they pulled 0.95g. The BFG 275s on the late 4th gen SS Z28s were nowhere near as soft, so of course they didn't stick as well. They were for looks, or the wheels would have been wifder than 9s. 9s also make sense for manufacturing costs, compared to 9.5s, and 9s will allow a cheapskate to fit 245/45s when the 275/40s wear out.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Both cars, similarly weighted, and tired, will handle about the same. Both are 3 link rears.

If you were to take a near to new factory 3rd gen today. And perform the tried and true handling upgrades along with modern rubber, you'd see more than 1G+ cornering loads. Even when using the wet noodle factory LCA, and TQ Arm in the rear.

I think my friend said it best. In his 4th gen he felt like he was riding inside the car. But the GTA always felt like he was sitting on top of a milk crate. Even when the car was sticking hard, it just wasn't communicative, or confidence inspiring. You had to learn to ignore the lack of feedback and trust it was going to stick.

But mod for mod with factory suspension types not changed? I think both cars end up equal territory when it comes to handling. The 4th gen just has a front end that likely feels better connected because of the steering and suspension design.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

I think the problem with those articles is the dates they were produced. Most of the articles with actual measured numbers were more than 10 years apart from the 4th gen articles. Tire technology improved a ton in the intervening years, and tire tech from today is extremely improved over the street tire tech of the early 90's.

The Eagle F1 Asymmetric 2's on my Focus ST were good. But the grip available when I switched to Michelin Pilot SuperSports? Went up a couple of notches on the butt meter. I found myself entering and exiting my favorite on/off ramps probably 2-3mph faster than I ever dared with the F1s. Not that we'll get it. But it would be interesting to see a documented test of a thirdgen riding on new OEM gatorbacks compared to the equivalent tire of today. I'm sure there would be a significant improvement in handling from the tires alone.

The grip I have with the Nitto NT05's when warm the one time I had the car on Road America was shocking. I could NOT get the car to come undone exiting a corner. I just did not have enough power to upset the car. Full throttle roll-on in 2nd gear exiting Turn 5 to go up the hill and there wasn't even a wiggle from the back.

IROCgiraffe

iTrader: (3)

Lots of great feedback and information. Both generations are fantastic and have their respective strengths. I wouldn't be able to choose one generation over the other, but feel 4th gen is much more stable and planted at higher speeds. The 3rd gen feels like a great daily driver whereas the 4th feels like your weekend toy.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

If your thirdgen feels floaty at speed then somethings got slop somewhere.

My GTA is PLANTED at 150. I've never felt the slightest bit of instability at any speed I've ever had the car at. And it gets to 150 in a hurry with the new engine. The car is flat out scary with how fast it will send you to jail. I can't really ever plant the pedal on the street.

Some people say the same about my Focus ST, and I've pushed that car to 150 and its like an bullet. Ford says 155mph is where the train stops pulling.

IROCgiraffe

iTrader: (3)

Noted.

CharcoalBird

iTrader: (4)

I would like to continue to improve my car as the years go by so to compare to a 4th gen wouldn't make sense... 6th gen is here...new thread?

rusty vango

i have both . a 86 IROC Z-28 and a 95 Z-28. im selling the 95 as soon as spring comes . between the two a 3rd gen, for me , wins every time. they handle better , they are easier to service (i hate the engine placement on a 4th gen ). they dont have silly plastic body panels. (its NOT a saturn , for christsakes) . i have driven many miles in both of them . the 3rd gen handles better.

lt1z350

iTrader: (2)

Easy now I have a caddy Ats 2.0t premium and it out handles my 92 and 94 by a lot. Lol My 92 was always tighter and more fun to drive then 4th for sure though. Formula 92 z28 94 which I turned into straight 1/4 mile car due to 92 being more solid for fun driving and pushing it hard in corners.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Newer suspensions and chassis designs easily outstrip 3rd get, and 4th get handling feedback, so that doesn't surprise me.

The handling grip is good in a sorted thirdgen, but its not a very communicative chassis, and the rear axle does not like bumps and uneven pavement. And short of moving to an IRS, there isn't anything to really do about that.

With the thirdgen you have to learn to trust that its going to stick, even though it will violently complain about rough pavement. With the Focus ST I drive daily I don't have to think about rough pavement, I just point the car and go.

Amillionoh7

iTrader: (1)

I work at ford and have pdi many st's and they are fast but feel very slow. "turbo dies out to fast" but if you have the recaro seats makes it all worth it. cant wait to get the new focus rs next year 315hp

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

ST's aren't what I'd call fast in todays crowd, but mine would easily walk away from a L98 in stock form, and with a tune would walk away from even a full bolt-on L98. Trap speed stock is about 98-100mph, tuned is between 103-105mph. My car put down 228whp stock, and ran 14.3 @ 98mph with a 2.3s 60 foot. Better launch and 13's easy.

I have a Focus RS on order, Stealth Gray, 19" Forged (2.2lbs lighter per wheel), all the goodies except the sun-roof and Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires. Its AWD, with 350hp and 350lb/ft torque now. Expecting it sometime 1st quarter.

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

I now have more miles on my 91 1LE than I did on my 97 Firehawk when I sold it a few years ago and can safely say that I have done things in my 3rd gen that I wouldn't have in my 4th. Corners under full throttle off camber and still stuck!

I do however have more lifetime miles in a third gen than any other gen of F-body so that may have something to do with my confidence and the predictability of the car.

I have a customer a couple of towns away who lives off of a very twisty, hilly, well cared for road that is wide, has great apexes and lines of sight. I look for reasons to go there off hours so I don't have to bring my truck.

Amillionoh7

iTrader: (1)

Awesome. Im dying to get one in the dealership. I want to check out the AWD system. One of the guys i work with has a STI he thinks is faster but im pretty sure hes wrong.

lt1z350

iTrader: (2)

That's the way the caddy is. Now my hunger for more power has spilled over to that car my wife's daily driver. Beside the tune and down pipe full exhaust and meth injection I have now got a over sized turbo coming and front mount. Lol so at that point maybe the power will then overcome the suspension but as of now that sucker handles like nothing I have drive with that magnetic suspension that keeps the car planted no matter what. That car actually got me back into the 92 that had been sitting in the garage untouched for past 5 years or so. I can't take hers away so got to get mine up and going again until can afford a new z06 anyway. Lol
Would love to figure out a way to stuff a 5th gen rear end under the third gen or even a set up from a Cadillac CTS or Ats. Now that would be cool.

midnightfirews6

iTrader: (1)

I'd be interested in hard data comparing camber curves and dynamic grip. I'd *think* that the SLA front end of a fourth gen would be at a slight advantage. Stock v stock, my third gen seemed to slide more predictably and have less load transfer than the fourth gen, though the thirdgen had the WS6 option and the Formula had the standard springs and bars, so it isn't a direct comparison between suspension levels. The soft suspension does work better over rough stuff though, there is an off ramp with a quick little crest mid-corner that unsettles my third gen a bit, but the fourth gen just soaks it up and stays steady. Weight wise, i think my 4th gen is a bit lighter than the third gen, but the soft suspension makes it feel much heavier. The third gen feels much lighter and smaller than it is. I love the steering precision in the fourth gen over the box in the third gen though. Stock, I prefer the third gen chassis, but the 4th gen steering. It'll be interesting to compare them once I get some good suspension under the fourth gen and get confident enough to track the third gen and compare them.

Kennerz

I'm running global west upper control arms on the front of an LS1 SS along with Koni's and an Addco from bar and I can tell you the front is superior to a thirdgen. All depends on what you are comparing. The standard 4th gen is not an LS1 car prepped to handle. There is a lot of meat on the bone with a 4th gen handling wise. I love the way the IROC feels, but the question is not if a car is stable at high speed, but is it stable and can it turn at high speed? The 4th does it better. (not comparing a standard LT1, or 245 tired car - I mean a LS car that came from the factory with 275's all around) Now bone stock for bone stock a factory bilstien FE2 IROC/WS6 is probably "Better" (meaning relatively better all things being equal)