TheExaminer

My car had a crappy steering gear in it when I bought it, been putting off changing it until I was told it couldnt be alinged til I did. So I changed the gear out for a reman from Autozone. Went right in, no problem and is working fine. I just have one question. You know the little nut on top that you use to adjust the gear? Theres a hex nut with an allen bolt on the inside, you loosen the hex to adjust the allen. Know the one? My question revolves around the fact that to me, it seems like theres not enough feedback in the steering. Feels like Im driving a car from the mid 70's or something. Theres no play at all in the new gear, but it turns too easy. On my old gear that allen bolt was almost flush with the top of the hex nut, but I figure thats because the PO knew the gear was crap and tried to tighten it down to compensate. On my new gear, the allen nut sticks up about 3/8" above the hex nut. Can I safely turn that allen bolt a round or so to tighten the steering to make it more realistic with force feedback etc.? Or is that a no no, or would it not make any difference? I wonder if they leave them loose like on remans that so the owner can tighten them down at their own discression? IDK, thats why Im on this site. I just dont like the feel of the new box, just too easy to turn--if that makes sense? Will tightening that allen bolt lessen the power assist without damaging the gear--provided I use common sense when I do it?

JunJun

Which tire are you wearing?
What size are your wheels?
Feedback also depends on them.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

No.

All you will accomplish by doing that, is making the Pitman shaft inside the gear, bind up. That "adjustment" is the end play of that shaft.

Most likely, you went from the 12.x:1 ratio in the old gear (which means, turn the steering wheel 12.x°, the wheels turn 1°), to a 14.x:1 ratio in the new one. I.e. from sports car to granny.

TheExaminer

Nope, I got the sports ratio, I made sure of that, same amount of turns from lock to lock, 2.5. Standard granny steering is 3.5 I think. Im not turning the wheel any MORE, its just turning more easily than I think it should. Theres no difference in the gears other than that. My 07 Mustang and 98 Camaro (both V6's) have a little more feedback in the steering, but they dont have stearing boxes like this 92. This box in the Firebird feels a little like one I had in a 75 Chevelle I used to own--but not quite as bad as that. Part of it is just 22 year old technology, and its been so long since I had my other Formula, Ive totally forgotten what it drove like in comparison to other cars Ive had.

naf

iTrader: (7)

torsion bar size can affect steering input as well. it's in the guts of the box.

TheExaminer

Yes, I thought about that today after I posted this. Im running stock 16" GTA's with stock tires. My Camaro is running 9.5", and the Mustang staggered 8.5 and 10's. But even having said that, the Firebird is still a little easier than those would be with 8's. It may just be because its old technology. I dont know what its called, but the steering boxes on the other two look different, theres no actual box. I dont know much about the newer steering systems. Its not a huge deal, I just wondered if there was anything easy I could do to safely stiffen it up just a little bit.

Alice89

iTrader: (6)

Its kind of funny; I built a 94 firebird v6 for autox/handling a few years back. I actually like the 3rd gen steering feel better. However I rebuilt my own factory steering box my self and adjusted it on a bench properly.

Is the steering wheel not returning to center fast enough? What is the exact "feel" that you feel is lacking in the steering? Also what is your alignment?

Sorry for all the questions. But I've felt the same steering set ups that you have and I can tell you from first hand experience that the 3rd gen box *if properly set up* feels excellent.

Personally, I think you just got a poorly rebuilt steering box. It would not be the first time that a remanufactured steering box was not bench adjusted properly.

TheExaminer

I've never paid much attention to how fast it turned back to center, I guess that's ok--never noticed any problem. My alignment is ok, got it done after I replaced the box. The camber and caster on the RF was way off, but they fixed that. The feel Im talking about is simply that the wheel is a little easier to turn than I think it should be. Remember how cars from the 70's were sometimes? The ease of it makes you feel not as connected in the handling. It's a very slight difference, not enough to make too big of a fuss over, but I was just curious if I could make a slight adjustment to stiffen it up just a little. But since the old box was so horrific (3-4" of play in the steering wheel) I had no point of reference to what it felt like new. The PO really cranked down on that allen bolt to try to take the play out, but all it did was make the steering harder without fixing the play.

Alice89

iTrader: (6)

When I first got my car it had the same issue; the steering was way loose lol. It was borderline scary to drive on the freeway.

I understand what your saying now. It's probably not the steering box set up then. The feeling your describing could be multiple things. Sway bars/springs & shocks/struts have a major effect on steering effort. Whats your current set up?

If you want a slightly heavier steering wheel feel; you could always lower the panhard bar. After lowering my panhard bar with just the cheap jegs piece I noticed a slightly heavier steering feel; while at the same time having better grip (especially under hard braking).

I know it probably sounds weird changing something in the rear suspension to aid in steering feel. But I promise it works. I can give you a part # if you want.

TheExaminer

Ok, that's making sense. My current setup is bare stock, but I've been planning to get new springs, struts, shocks all around when I work up a good money cushion. I can get everything I need at Autozone for about $350. One thing I like about stock thirdgens is they are not coil over springs in front. I guess that's old tech, but it sure makes it easy to change stuff out! Anyway, the ride isn't that great right now. Feels like she leans over in the corner a little more than she should, and it's a little too easy to push down on the rear end--plus when you go over a RR track it about shakes you to death. I know part of it is the heavy WS6 springs, but still....... When I put new springs/struts in my 98 Camaro with 168k on it, I could not believe the difference it made. It drove like a brand new car. I plan to get a wonder bar soon too, and eventually inside and outside SFC's. But, money money money. Ain't got enough right now. Thx for the tips on the suspension, very helpful. BTW, how do you lower the panhard bar? Wedge that jegs piece between the bar where it attaches to the body? Wouldn't you need new bolts?

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Theres a lot of things in your post that are just vague... you want stiffer springs so the rear end is harder to push down? To replace springs because the steering is too light, the rear is too easy to push down, and because it rattles over bumps isnt really the best way to go about things. "Leaning" in itself doesnt cause issues.

I'd be willing to bet the improvement you felt on your fourth gen was due to struts. Springs are just metal rods. The rate doesnt change, even if their installed height might over the years. Dont get too hung up on what a spring should or shouldn't feel like.


If you just want the car to "feel" the way that you think it should, then sure, just change out the springs with whatever, but that isn't how you tune the handling or ride quality.

Also, fourth gens use a different type of front suspension that rides MUCH softer over bumps. Their effective spring rate is the same even though their springs are much softer. The rear suspension is the same, but the front is different. The performance difference between the two isnt significant, but the ride quality is.


That jegs panhard relocation bracket does not need to be 'wedged' anywhere. It needs to be welded onto the differential. It changes a critical suspension mounting point. It will stiffen your steering and increase body roll and require a bigger rear sway bar. It fundamentally changes the behavior of the rear suspension and the whole thing needs to be tweaked to use it properly. I would avoid that, because I dont see any reason for you to go through all that trouble just to "increase steering effort"... what is that supposed to accomplish exactly? People have been complaining about bad "Steering feel" in these cars since the 80's. Doing weird stuff like changing around the rear suspension to address steering effort is just kind of backwards. I agree it's a good mod to do, and I've done it, but Ive got performance reasons for doing it. I dont think it's worth the trouble for some guy who thinks the rear of his car is "too easy to push down".... mainly meaning that you dont seem to have any competition interest in these things, mainly a personal opinion about how you want it to feel, and lowering the roll center will increase body roll, which means the springs need to be stiffer and sway bar needs to be stiffer, and you already said you dont like the body roll... (why?)

Sounds like you just want a 4th gen, honestly.

TheExaminer

Getting a little snarky here aren't we? No, I never said I wanted new springs so the rear end would be harder to push down. That sounds like something a woman (no offense) would say. It IS, however, a sign of shocks that are on the way out. And "Leaning over" in the corner is also a sign of worn out suspension parts. My Camaro was doing exactly the same thing before I changed it. And yes, I know the spring rate is different for a 4th gen, that's why I partly attributed the rough ride to the WS6 springs. Who do you think replaced the springs and struts in my Camaro? Lastly, the word "wedged" was a generic word I just grabbed and used based on the description the previous poster used, and that it was an alteration I had never heard of before. That does not mean I'm going to randomly stick a piece of plywood in my panhard bar to "make it harder to push the rear end down". And having owned two other 4th gens as well as two other 3rd gens, NO, I don't want to get rid of my current 3rd gen so I can feel better going over RR tracks. If you want to offer decent advice feel free. If you want to talk to me like I'm an idiot, find another thread.

Alice89

iTrader: (6)

I didn't realize your suspension was still all factory. The shocks & struts are probably blown & all your rubber bushings have to be rotting by now. My point? I would not bother with lowering the panhard bar until getting everything else fixed. Just my opinion.

It's a weld in bracket; here it is:
http://www.jegs.com/i/Jegster/550/41...oductId=754011

I wouldn't bother with lowering the PHB until you get some decent S&S's; not to mention you would preferably need an adj PHB bar.

But a lowered PHB will help you get a heavier steering feel; since that appears to be what your after.

TheExaminer

Yip, my thought as well. I just bought this car last year, and have had tons of other things I've had to do to it. Running low on cash, and have had to slow down--I know you know how that goes. It's a very clean, nice car, just 22 years of wear and tear to be fixed. I don't know that the shocks and struts are the original ones from the factory, probably not, but they probably need new. Bushings aren't too bad, but could stand a good looking into also Im sure. Thanks for your help and tips. We were having a civil converse before Internal Cotex showed up. That dude needs to stay away from me. Just sayin'.....

Alice89

iTrader: (6)

Yes I do lol.

For the record; infernal was right about having to tailor your rear springs & sway-bar after lowering the PHB. You will have to change them based on driving style & feel.
You will definitely need a heavier rear spring rate then your factory springs. But since you have a ws6 you may already have a big enough rear sway bar.

But definitely get some good S&S before doing anything (Bilstein or Koni at least). That and getting all your bushings in good order as well.

Springs are usually the last thing I do. You have to have a good baseline set up (no weak links in your suspension; all good mounting points/goods&s/proper alignment/decent tires) before you can make a sound decision on spring rates. Keep in mind I'm talking hypercoils; not your usual lowering springs. Going with custom springs are actually cheaper though, than buying lowering springs like the pro-kit from eibach. So its a win-win when you finally go to buy springs. They are only around $45 a coil! I can give you a link to the springs I'm talking about.

Heck I can walk you through building your own weight jacks if you ever want to get serious with your 3rd gen. They are actually not that expensive to make either.

TheExaminer

Oh I don't doubt he was right, I just don't have time for these guys who come in here (and honestly there aren't too many on this site) acting like a condescending jack*ss twisting around things you say to try to make you look stupid while they tell you about it. If you want respect, show respect. Anyway, thx again for the tips--one crisis at a time. I've got some other things to get to before I can get serious with the suspension--and yeah, I've got the fat sway bars front and back. But I'd rather not lower the car, I like the stock stance generally and don't have any plans to race it right now. We'll see what works out as I go, but you've given me some great starting points! I may be in touch later! Thx!

Alice89

iTrader: (6)

In that case I would just stick with getting some decent shocks & struts as money comes in. Either way have fun with your car.

TheExaminer

Yip, that's the idea. It's one of only 200 350/ttops from 1992--and everything on it is original as far as I know. I even have the window sticker and factory build sheet. So because of its rarity I'm not looking to stray TOO far from what the stock vehicle was. Eventually Id like to get 300-350 hp out of the motor without changing its outward appearance too much for this same reason. But still, what you've told me here has been very helpful. Thanks again.....

naf

iTrader: (7)

I would strongly suggest putting new springs near the top of your list with struts and shocks and any other worn out pieces. Save up and do EVERYTHING at once that will affect alignment (unless you can get one of those for free?).

Once you get into the linkage, it's usually best to replace everything if any of it is questionable.

My OP
Springs: Moog
Ball Joints: Moog
Struts/Shocks: NOT Gabriel
Everything else: not so important

If $ is an issue, maybe try to do the rear first.

I'd compare prices at RA to AZ, bet you can shave off some $. Don't forget to use the discount code posted somewhere here.

If your springs are sagging, the rate (spring constant) has already changed. Otherwise they wouldn't be sagging, do the math.

TheExaminer

I agree 100%. The back of my car looks like it's sagging about 1/2" to 1" lower than it should be. Even if I leave the front springs alone (much less likely to sag) Im going to do the back all around and put new struts in front. My Camaro was doing the same thing a couple years back. It sags so slowly, you don't notice it. When I replaced everything, it raised the whole car about 1.5", and made a HUGE difference in handling! But when I do the rear on the Firebird, I'm going with new variable rate springs and 4th gen spring cushions. That should make the stance a little more aggressive and help a little with the ride. +1 on everything you said!

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Didnt mean to be snarky, was just saying that your criticisms and solutions thus far aren't really helpful and I wanted you to see that a more scientific approach might help. I sometimes get more caught up in trying to make a point than being polite, and that's something I've been trying to work on. Sorry if it seemed harsh, that wasnt really my intention.

While the various proposed solutions may help on an individual level, they're going to cause problems in the big picture. Come up with some more concrete goals for what you want the car to do, or how you want it to behave, and it'll be a lot easier to run down a list of changes and side effects. And Im not saying that they're wrong either, just saying that a lot of these things are compromises...

If you add stiffer rear springs to counteract the PHBRB that you installed to stiffen up the steering, the stiffer rear springs will make the rear of the car stiffer and give you more steering effort, but it will also degrade ride quality and make all the rattles and vibrations worse, which is one of your other concerns. It will also cause more body roll, which is also one of your concerns. So just be aware that you need to tweak things as a system on a global level, and the thirdgen suspension platform is very good, especially with a few minor tweaks, but it's not the best for ride quality.

And like I said, people have been complaining about steering feel in these cars since the early 80's. It's not something you're really going to be able to fix at this point, which is why I suggested you stick with the 4th gen, because they use a rack and pinion setup. You already prefer the way it rides, and you should because the suspension on those is set up to ride better and give roughly the same level of performance as our cars.

And as I hinted, I think most of the improvement was in the shocks on your fourth gen, so I'd get some nice struts and shocks on your car now and see how you feel about it then.

Also, for whatever it's worth, there's allegedly a certain steering box for these cars that has a higher steering effort required than the other quick ratio boxes. I dont know why, and Im not sure I trust that source, but I did read something about it. If it were me, I'd probably look into some sort of restrictor for the power steering pump. Maybe an underdrive pulley? But again, I think you're going to find that steering effort isnt really the issue, it's just the feel in these steering boxes isnt that great, and I've had a slow ratio box and a quick ratio box with much heavier steering, and the "feel" isnt really much different.

Everything you've observed is a legitimate complaint about these cars, and they're things that the 4th gens addressed. They're better everyday cars. Remember, the fourth gens use the same rear suspensions we got, with slightly different spring rates, but they're very close. So you can swap the rear springs back and forth to see if you prefer one or the other. I think the fourth gen rear springs might be a tad softer on average... but it depends. There were a lot of different spring rates available for our cars, and for fourth gens, so there's almost no telling what rates are which.

Also, naf, I personally dont think sagging springs are as big of a deal as people think. There was a huge thread with a whole bunch of people getting butt hurt and angry at each other about whether or not sagging springs made a difference to anything, and I finally decided that Im not too worried about whether or not my springs sag by the time I read through the whole thing.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...ver-rated.html

This is not a settled issue by any means, Im open to having my mind changed, but I think I side with Pablo a little more in this case.

I dont really think you'll get the kind of improvement you are expecting from new springs... but I do think good shocks and struts will get you that. But theres a lot of guys on here who think new springs made a huge difference. I've never bought new springs, so I dont know through any sort of first hand experience. I always run used springs, some stock, some trimmed down, just depends. I've got trimmed down IROC springs in my car now... I dont think they sag a bit, and I wish they would. Sagging doesnt change the spring rate, because the number of active coils also drops, which increases the spring rate to compensate.

Do you have subframe connectors? They can help with rattles sometimes and I think they're a great upgrade anyway. I also find that a lot of the rattles are in the doors... so if you pull off the door panels and try to use some foam or something to cushion the door lock and release rods and whatnot, you have a good shot at making a lot of those rattles go away.

Also, your fourth gen looks like a really nice car.

TheExaminer

Ok Vortex, I get it--peace--but you reminded me of one time I went to a parts store and asked the guy there why my 75 Chevelle almost stalled every time I stopped at a stop sign and turned 90 degrees one way or the other to make a turn. He looked at me, laughed and said "you aren't supposed to turn the steering wheel lock to lock, that's something a WOMAN would do. Hahahahaha". Idiot. I never said I turned it lock to lock, I said it stalled....etc. there was another issue at work, had nothing to do with that, and it royally ticked me off that he was talking to me like I was a "woman"--which in his speak meant I was an automotive fool.

Anyway, the issue I raised in my OP was simply that the steering was too light. Most of the changes you described are things I don't have the money for right now, and are way beyond anything I want to do to the car now. Mostly I just want to get it back to what it was when new the best I can, then add a little juice to the motor later on. The rear is sagging a little, as I said above, and I plan to add variable rate springs to the rear to help with the ride, and 4th gen spring cushions. I'm going to do struts and shocks all around also.

You're right, I probably would be happier with the ride of a 4th gen, I have owned a 98 Camaro for 14 years. Best car I've ever had, reliable as the USS Constitution! However, I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE thirdgen Firebirds--have ever since I was a kid. This is the third one I've owned, but it's the first one I've been able to roll my sleeves up on mechanically and learn about. I have a lot to learn, no secret there, but I've come a long way in the last year trying to catch up with guys like you that know more. I have a lot of intelligence to grasp concepts, but I don't know the official technical terms for things. That's why I said the steering was too easy--or too "light" as the term goes. There was no more concrete way for me to say it because while my intelligence grasped the concept, my lack of technical jargon made it difficult to communicate with experts. Ths is one of the biggest obstacles for me on this site. Many is the time I've been in converse with a poster and had to stop midstream and Google something just so I knew what they were telling me. Once I get that info I understand, but I have to learn on the run. It's not that I don't know what I'm talking about, it's more that I don't know how to say it so guys like you know I'm talking about the TPS, IAC, EGR, ITS, ....etc. But I tend to like Firebirds better than Camaros, and have never liked 4th gen Birds much, except MAYBE the 02 GTA. But even so, I will always have a deep love for thirdgens, they are my favorite car ever!

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Im exactly the same way, I completely understand your indignation. Ive been on the other side of it my share of times - everyone is ignorant on some things, and what i've found is far too often the people who think they know it all don't know half of what YOU do. That's the other reason I didn't react too harshly after your reaction. I can sympathize. I didnt mean it that way, but I get it.

Do you have SFCs? You already have the quick ratio steering box, because you have a TA. All the TA's and Z cars got the quick ratio boxes... I think some of the RS's and sport coupes did too if tehy got the F41 suspension and/or 16 inch wheels, but Im not too sure on that. Point is that the quick ratio boxes are actually really common. So you already have the better box. But they just suck for feel. The slow ratio boxes are worse.

There are some rack and pinion upgrades available, but our steering knuckles arent in the right spot, you lose a ton of your turning radius, and it costs a boatload of money to do it. They are usually used for drag race cars only.

I would consider, MAYBE, an underdrive pulley, but that didnt make much of a difference in my case either. The steering feel is just what it is. The best you can do is have your box rebuilt and get new tie rods and idler arm put on the car to eliminate any slop. Also you'll find a good alignment will help steering feel as well. But none of these are major, these are all small changes.

As i said before, I think shocks and struts will make the biggest difference. I know you like the idea of new springs, but read through that thread i linked before to see both sides of that argument. I found it particularly interesting. There's some pretty heated debate there about it.

TheExaminer

SFC's are on the shopping list. Money, money..... But yeah, quick ratio box in there. I made sure I got that when I bought the reman box. Installed it this summer, so it's "new", and got a full alignment done the next week. So that's all good right now. Speaking of turn radius, now it all makes sense. I've joked for years that my Camaro has the turn radius of an ocean liner, it's AWFUL! You cannot make a u turn on a two lane state hyway without stopping to maneuver, now I know why....LOL Underdrive pulley.... A buddy of mine was talking about that a couple weeks back. Don't know much about it, but I'll study it out. Sounds like a pulley that would take away some of the PS assist by slowing the pump rpm?

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

The turn radius will be MUCH worse with a rack, because they wont move as far as an ackerman arm... I believe that's what it's called. You would have to shorten the steering knuckle, which can be done but it's a bit of a fabrication project and for whatever reason it's not something that is done very often. I would like to do it to mine but I have concerns about long term safety when we are talking about replacing a cast eyelet with a bolt going through it with some fabricated brackets held together with bolts... But it can be done. You wont get better turn radius than factory because there just isnt enough room to move wide tires that far, but theoretically you could make a rack work that way.

I think most of the available racks for our cars are manual racks too, which is another issue. Manual racks arent gonna be fun with 245/50s up front...

Anyway, best thing to do is throw that on the backburner, because it's uncharted territory for the most part, just something I've tossed around in my head.

Anyway, underdrive pulleys are supposed to get more horsepower by putting less drag on the crank. You remove the crank pulley and put a smaller one on there, and it turns every pulley in the system less, therefore less parasitic drag. Just so happens that your alternator may not charge adequately and your steering may get heavier and your car may overheat in the process for teh same reason...

But in my experience I rarely have issues with alternator not charging enough unless it's very cold and it isnt idling up to speed yet. My car always runs very cool. And my steering effort is about the same as far as I can tell. So it's a wash.

For what underdrive pulleys cost, I wouldnt bother unless you can find some used ones cheap, which is what I did. Just found a used set really cheap and threw em on to see if it made a difference in anything... and the answer is... not much that was noticeable in my case. But I've been swapping parts out and changing things constantly for a couple of years now, hard to really remember.

naf

iTrader: (7)

Although you are correct in that sagging doesn't change the spring rate, the fact is that the spring would not be sagging if the spring rate had not changed. You got cause mixed up with effect.

The steering effort is not changed by varying the pump pressure. Effort is changed within the box by the torsion bar. A stiffer torsion bar provides more resistance to steering changes from driver AND road input. A google search can provide a quick 1 minute explanation.

Other things that affect steering effort include the linkage itself (old components or lack of proper lube, etc.) alignment settings and pneumatic trail.

naf

iTrader: (7)

weird double post

TheExaminer

I'm not going to put a rack and pinion on, esp after I just said the turning radius on my 4th gen Camaro is lousy. Sounds like you're thinking out loud about what could possibly be done. Most of the stuff brought up in this thread is stuff I don't know how to do, and wouldn't do it to this car if I did. Cut this, fabricate that, just not in the plan. This car has much too rare an option package (1 of 200 made like it) to do much modification to. I'm going to go with new OE springs all around (except variable rate in the rear), new S&S and eventually SFC's. That will take care of most of my issues. This has gotten way, way beyond anything I intended in my OP. The problem is so minute, it's silly to rebuild the car just to gain a 5% increase in steering weight--and that's probably about what the difference amounts to. I think some guys on here are so immersed in racing and modifications, they forget some of us just want to restore our cars and have fun with them because we love thirdgens.

Underdrive pulley on the crank, ah yes, I remember the talk I had about it now. We didn't see what the big deal with it was. Sounds like borrowing trouble, at least it would be in my world because I'm not a master mechanic. If you have to cheat with something like that to get more HP out of a motor, chances are it's something better left undone. Intake, cam, heads I can see, but I think I'd pass on that. Eventuallly I want to push my L98 up to 300-350 horse, and I'll be happy with it. But, I want to do it in a way that the motor looks close to stock on the surface. That Edlebrock high flow intake would be about as far as Id go as far as changing the look goes. Want to keep this rare car together as much as possible.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Underdrive pulleys are easy to put on and easy to take off, they're just a waste of money if they dont work for you. I dont have any issues with mine, but my car isnt the average thirdgen either. Just depends on things. But I just wanted to explain the "costs" of underdrive pulleys and rack conversions so you'd understand why it's not often done. There are good reasons everyone doesnt have them.

I would love a rack on my car, but it wouldn't be able to do what I need it to do.

And to be clear, the turning radius on our cars has a lot more to do with a big, wide tire having to turn and it taking up room in the fender than the type of mechanism used. They use steering stops to prevent the spindle from turning too much.

The rack itself doesnt effect the turning radius, it's the combination of the limited movement of the rack with the thirdgen spindle that is designed for steering box type movement ranges. The fourth gen spindles have a much shorter steering knuckle arm on them than ours do to compensate for this.

4th gen spindle. The steering arm is the thing that points out to the left.


And 3rd gen spindle with modified hub next to it for a size reference, you can see the steering arm pointing way out to the right.


This is an example of someone who shorted it up:



But the point is, this is pretty advanced, custom fabricated type stuff that not many people dive into, which is part of the reason I said you that you might want to stick with 4th gens because there's not really an easy night and day solution. But if you love the cars, then it's a lot harder decision to make. There are advantages to the 3rd gen design too. Our tapered roller bearings are far stronger, cheaper, and more durable than the sealed ball bearings that 4th gens get.

I would venture to say that if you can find someone who is comfortable with the fabrication, doing this sort of work to retrofit a 4th gen rack and modifying the steering arm length to be shorter at the same time WOULD get you the results you want for steering feel, but there arent many who have been down that road.

The other issue is that most of us who race these cars dont bother with racks and stuff because the "feel", while important, doesnt make the car faster. Those of us who just drive it around on the street are, again, just used to it and deal with it or dont care. There is a small subset of these groups and you happen to fall into them, where you want the steering feel of a modern rack and pinion setup for street driving. But it's just not an easy thing to accomplish.

That was part of the reason that thread was so interesting. I decided to do a little digging...

k = (Gd^4)/(8nD^3)

k= spring rate (lbs/in)
G= modulus of rigidity (lbs/in^2)
d= wire diameter (in)
n= active coils (#)
D= Coil diameter (in)

If you reshuffle it, kn = (Gd^4)/(8D^3)

So there is a linear relationship between spring rate and number of coils.We all knew this, already, though. The Modulus of rigidity, wire diameter, and coil diameter cannot change, so if a spring sags, the number of active coils drops, so the spring rate must increase to compensate, as the rest of those things do not change. This is kind of contrary to what we would expect...

So maybe this means "sagging" springs have a higher rate? The number of active coils is changing.

I just read this:

http://insideracingtechnology.com/eibach1.htm

I dont know... I do find this an interesting topic, though. I guess what we can say is that the spring reaches equilibrium with the weight of the car when the spring is exerting exactly the opposite force of mass times gravity... so the amount of force exerted by the spring at rest is going to be the same regardless of the rate, and as the active coils decrease, the rate changes. Is this new rate the same as the original rate? I dont know. Im going with probably, but I dont know.

So what about this theory - what if perceived "spring sag" has more to do with the shock being internally worn out and damaged and providing resistance to movement that it should not otherwise provide? Think maybe of a corroded shock shaft or a bent piston in a shock that binds up due to age and wear. What if the control arm bushings have worn to the point that the spring is loaded the same, but the geometry is different due to the bolts not being centered in the suspension bushings (due to worn out bushings)? We KNOW that rubber degrades over time, especially with use. It gets brittle and falls apart... Just a thought...


Yeah I dont know much about the internals of steering boxes. I wish I did. I just know some guys who run high RPMs will run some sort of restrictor to lessen the power assist at high speeds. It makes sense that it would be a linear response until you get out of a certain ideal range, though. I also get the feeling that increased "weight" isnt really what he wants. I've driven these cars with heavier and lighter boxes, and the "feel" isnt really better with more required effort. Its just more required effort. Does that make any sense?

TheExaminer

Well, the way I see it, I can own a 4th gen and 3rd gen (and I do) and appreciate both for what they are. I don't have to pick one or the other. Why do some guys drive hot rods with old flathead V8's that produce 100 hp? Some guys just like original stuff because it's nore fun to mess with. I'm not as bad as all that, but I lean in that direction.