Alignment issues after full front rebuild
02-03-2015, 04:47 PM
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Car: 1989 Chevy Camaro RS
Engine: L30 TBI 5.0L Vortec
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: Stock
Alignment issues after full front rebuild
So did the full front end rebuild here
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...ld-spring.html
Not the car pulls slightly left after the alignment. I have to keep the wheel at about Between 12-1 on the clock to go straight. Looking at the attached alignment sheet, what's my possible issue?
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...ld-spring.html
Not the car pulls slightly left after the alignment. I have to keep the wheel at about Between 12-1 on the clock to go straight. Looking at the attached alignment sheet, what's my possible issue?
02-03-2015, 07:02 PM
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Re: Alignment issues after full front rebuild
That camber...
02-03-2015, 07:09 PM
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Re: Alignment issues after full front rebuild
Camber should be 0 to -½° on the left, -½° to -1° on the right. Maybe just a bit more if it can't be helped, no more than -1½° on either side, no more than ½° split; NEVER + under ANY circumstances.
Caster is good.
Toe should be around 0.02 to 0.04 inward, on both sides; not sure whether that's + or - according to your printout. If the camber is more -, the toe needs to be more inward. More camber and more inward toe will give the car a more positive center feeling but too much will eat the inside edges of tires.
Your current setting will EAT EAT EAT the outer edges of tires like ... I ate my lunch.
Caster is good.
Toe should be around 0.02 to 0.04 inward, on both sides; not sure whether that's + or - according to your printout. If the camber is more -, the toe needs to be more inward. More camber and more inward toe will give the car a more positive center feeling but too much will eat the inside edges of tires.
Your current setting will EAT EAT EAT the outer edges of tires like ... I ate my lunch.
02-03-2015, 08:38 PM
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Car: 1989 Chevy Camaro RS
Engine: L30 TBI 5.0L Vortec
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: Stock
Camber should be 0 to -½° on the left, -½° to -1° on the right. Maybe just a bit more if it can't be helped, no more than -1½° on either side, no more than ½° split; NEVER + under ANY circumstances.
Caster is good.
Toe should be around 0.02 to 0.04 inward, on both sides; not sure whether that's + or - according to your printout. If the camber is more -, the toe needs to be more inward. More camber and more inward toe will give the car a more positive center feeling but too much will eat the inside edges of tires.
Your current setting will EAT EAT EAT the outer edges of tires like ... I ate my lunch.
Caster is good.
Toe should be around 0.02 to 0.04 inward, on both sides; not sure whether that's + or - according to your printout. If the camber is more -, the toe needs to be more inward. More camber and more inward toe will give the car a more positive center feeling but too much will eat the inside edges of tires.
Your current setting will EAT EAT EAT the outer edges of tires like ... I ate my lunch.
So two things for you sofa
1) What's up with that rear thrust angle
2) What are ideal numbers I should give this shop to align it to?
02-03-2015, 09:26 PM
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Car: 1989 GTA
Engine: SuperRam 350
Transmission: Pro Built S/S TH700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.27
Re: Alignment issues after full front rebuild
Camber: You have +0.7 and +0.1...........This is going to eat up the outside tread on your front left tire in no time at all. Try and get -0.3 on both sides at the minimum. -0.5 on both sides is better still. To get a higher performance number like -0.8 or -1.0 you're going to need aftermarket solid bearing upper strut mounts. You should have no problem getting -0.3 on stock upper strut mounts.
Camber choice depends on a few variables. If you daily drive on lots of highways, then something like -1.0 will wear out the inside of the tire. But if you sparingly drive the car as a high performance machine, then the -1.0 is lots of fun. A setting of -0.5 or -0.8 will give you the best of both worlds, with better handling and equal tire wear.
Caster: Not bad actually. The general rule of thumb is to aim for +0.5 higher on the passenger side. So you'd get something like one of the following.
Left/Right
4.0/4.5
4.3/4.8
4.7/5.2
5.0/5.5
The reason for the half a degree higher on the right hand side is that it keeps the car from drifting into the ditch. Roads are generally angled slightly towards the right side of the road for rain run off. If your caster is equal, the car will drift to the right. You have a difference of +0.8 more caster on the right side, which means that it is going to make the car drift to the left more than you need it to.
Toe: You have a positive toe on the right hand side and a negative toe on the left side. Positive toe is what you want on both sides. Positive means that the car is pointed inwards like this picture.
As it stands, with your positive toe on right tire and negative toe on left tire, you end up having both tires pointed towards the left...........But there is more. When you drive a RWD car like ours, the front tires will naturally toe out while driving down the road (this is due to the car "pushing" the tires as it propels forwards). What this means is that a car with positive toe on both sides will straighten out when actually driven. But with your setup, it will end up having TOO much negative toe on the left side and just barely enough on the right side. If you imagine your left tire is at a 45° angle while your right tire is straight you'll have a good visual idea of what's going on.
The bottom line: Print off the picture above and take it to the shop. You want negative camber, bring the caster slightly closer to each other, and more positive toe on both sides. The total toe should be as close to 0.09 as possible. (0.09 is the same thing as 3/32 in the picture above). Bringing the total toe to 0.09 also improves the car's road manners when dealing with uneven pavement, potholes, saggy roads while at highway speeds. Total toe numbers that are closer to 0.00 will make the car want to squirm sideways while running over the slightest pebble on the road.
Negative toe on both sides is ONLY for people who autocross their cars (slow speed, ultra fast turning response). Driving a car like this on the highway will eat tires faster than a 16 year old with the keys to Dad's car.
Camber choice depends on a few variables. If you daily drive on lots of highways, then something like -1.0 will wear out the inside of the tire. But if you sparingly drive the car as a high performance machine, then the -1.0 is lots of fun. A setting of -0.5 or -0.8 will give you the best of both worlds, with better handling and equal tire wear.
Caster: Not bad actually. The general rule of thumb is to aim for +0.5 higher on the passenger side. So you'd get something like one of the following.
Left/Right
4.0/4.5
4.3/4.8
4.7/5.2
5.0/5.5
The reason for the half a degree higher on the right hand side is that it keeps the car from drifting into the ditch. Roads are generally angled slightly towards the right side of the road for rain run off. If your caster is equal, the car will drift to the right. You have a difference of +0.8 more caster on the right side, which means that it is going to make the car drift to the left more than you need it to.
Toe: You have a positive toe on the right hand side and a negative toe on the left side. Positive toe is what you want on both sides. Positive means that the car is pointed inwards like this picture.
As it stands, with your positive toe on right tire and negative toe on left tire, you end up having both tires pointed towards the left...........But there is more. When you drive a RWD car like ours, the front tires will naturally toe out while driving down the road (this is due to the car "pushing" the tires as it propels forwards). What this means is that a car with positive toe on both sides will straighten out when actually driven. But with your setup, it will end up having TOO much negative toe on the left side and just barely enough on the right side. If you imagine your left tire is at a 45° angle while your right tire is straight you'll have a good visual idea of what's going on.
The bottom line: Print off the picture above and take it to the shop. You want negative camber, bring the caster slightly closer to each other, and more positive toe on both sides. The total toe should be as close to 0.09 as possible. (0.09 is the same thing as 3/32 in the picture above). Bringing the total toe to 0.09 also improves the car's road manners when dealing with uneven pavement, potholes, saggy roads while at highway speeds. Total toe numbers that are closer to 0.00 will make the car want to squirm sideways while running over the slightest pebble on the road.
Negative toe on both sides is ONLY for people who autocross their cars (slow speed, ultra fast turning response). Driving a car like this on the highway will eat tires faster than a 16 year old with the keys to Dad's car.
02-05-2015, 06:02 AM
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Re: Alignment issues after full front rebuild
That rear axle is no worse than most others.
Wouldn't be surprised to see that the axle tubes are loose in the pumpkin. Happens more than you might think.
Not something you just "fix", like you would a leaky water pump or something, in any case.
Wouldn't be surprised to see that the axle tubes are loose in the pumpkin. Happens more than you might think.
Not something you just "fix", like you would a leaky water pump or something, in any case.
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02-05-2015, 06:24 PM
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Car: 1989 Chevy Camaro RS
Engine: L30 TBI 5.0L Vortec
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: Stock
Camber: You have +0.7 and +0.1...........This is going to eat up the outside tread on your front left tire in no time at all. Try and get -0.3 on both sides at the minimum. -0.5 on both sides is better still. To get a higher performance number like -0.8 or -1.0 you're going to need aftermarket solid bearing upper strut mounts. You should have no problem getting -0.3 on stock upper strut mounts.
Camber choice depends on a few variables. If you daily drive on lots of highways, then something like -1.0 will wear out the inside of the tire. But if you sparingly drive the car as a high performance machine, then the -1.0 is lots of fun. A setting of -0.5 or -0.8 will give you the best of both worlds, with better handling and equal tire wear.
Caster: Not bad actually. The general rule of thumb is to aim for +0.5 higher on the passenger side. So you'd get something like one of the following.
Left/Right
4.0/4.5
4.3/4.8
4.7/5.2
5.0/5.5
The reason for the half a degree higher on the right hand side is that it keeps the car from drifting into the ditch. Roads are generally angled slightly towards the right side of the road for rain run off. If your caster is equal, the car will drift to the right. You have a difference of +0.8 more caster on the right side, which means that it is going to make the car drift to the left more than you need it to.
Toe: You have a positive toe on the right hand side and a negative toe on the left side. Positive toe is what you want on both sides. Positive means that the car is pointed inwards like this picture.
As it stands, with your positive toe on right tire and negative toe on left tire, you end up having both tires pointed towards the left...........But there is more. When you drive a RWD car like ours, the front tires will naturally toe out while driving down the road (this is due to the car "pushing" the tires as it propels forwards). What this means is that a car with positive toe on both sides will straighten out when actually driven. But with your setup, it will end up having TOO much negative toe on the left side and just barely enough on the right side. If you imagine your left tire is at a 45° angle while your right tire is straight you'll have a good visual idea of what's going on.
The bottom line: Print off the picture above and take it to the shop. You want negative camber, bring the caster slightly closer to each other, and more positive toe on both sides. The total toe should be as close to 0.09 as possible. (0.09 is the same thing as 3/32 in the picture above). Bringing the total toe to 0.09 also improves the car's road manners when dealing with uneven pavement, potholes, saggy roads while at highway speeds. Total toe numbers that are closer to 0.00 will make the car want to squirm sideways while running over the slightest pebble on the road.
Negative toe on both sides is ONLY for people who autocross their cars (slow speed, ultra fast turning response). Driving a car like this on the highway will eat tires faster than a 16 year old with the keys to Dad's car.
Camber choice depends on a few variables. If you daily drive on lots of highways, then something like -1.0 will wear out the inside of the tire. But if you sparingly drive the car as a high performance machine, then the -1.0 is lots of fun. A setting of -0.5 or -0.8 will give you the best of both worlds, with better handling and equal tire wear.
Caster: Not bad actually. The general rule of thumb is to aim for +0.5 higher on the passenger side. So you'd get something like one of the following.
Left/Right
4.0/4.5
4.3/4.8
4.7/5.2
5.0/5.5
The reason for the half a degree higher on the right hand side is that it keeps the car from drifting into the ditch. Roads are generally angled slightly towards the right side of the road for rain run off. If your caster is equal, the car will drift to the right. You have a difference of +0.8 more caster on the right side, which means that it is going to make the car drift to the left more than you need it to.
Toe: You have a positive toe on the right hand side and a negative toe on the left side. Positive toe is what you want on both sides. Positive means that the car is pointed inwards like this picture.
As it stands, with your positive toe on right tire and negative toe on left tire, you end up having both tires pointed towards the left...........But there is more. When you drive a RWD car like ours, the front tires will naturally toe out while driving down the road (this is due to the car "pushing" the tires as it propels forwards). What this means is that a car with positive toe on both sides will straighten out when actually driven. But with your setup, it will end up having TOO much negative toe on the left side and just barely enough on the right side. If you imagine your left tire is at a 45° angle while your right tire is straight you'll have a good visual idea of what's going on.
The bottom line: Print off the picture above and take it to the shop. You want negative camber, bring the caster slightly closer to each other, and more positive toe on both sides. The total toe should be as close to 0.09 as possible. (0.09 is the same thing as 3/32 in the picture above). Bringing the total toe to 0.09 also improves the car's road manners when dealing with uneven pavement, potholes, saggy roads while at highway speeds. Total toe numbers that are closer to 0.00 will make the car want to squirm sideways while running over the slightest pebble on the road.
Negative toe on both sides is ONLY for people who autocross their cars (slow speed, ultra fast turning response). Driving a car like this on the highway will eat tires faster than a 16 year old with the keys to Dad's car.
Sheet below
02-05-2015, 07:39 PM
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Re: Alignment issues after full front rebuild
Look how different the before-and-after rear camber and toe measurements are.
A "solid" rear axle shouldn't change that much. Isn't as "solid" as it's cracked up to be.
That's your axle tubes twiddling around in the pumpkin.
Car drive any better? It should.
A "solid" rear axle shouldn't change that much. Isn't as "solid" as it's cracked up to be.
That's your axle tubes twiddling around in the pumpkin.
Car drive any better? It should.
02-07-2015, 10:51 AM
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Car: 1989 Chevy Camaro RS
Engine: L30 TBI 5.0L Vortec
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: Stock
She's no 2015 model year front end but it seems to drive a lot better than it did before.
02-07-2015, 12:45 PM
#11
Re: Alignment issues after full front rebuild
Furthermore, an axle replacement (if necessary) will "fix" the rear.
I like your screen name.
02-07-2015, 03:08 PM
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Re: Alignment issues after full front rebuild
an axle replacement (if necessary) will "fix" the rear
Just go down to the dealer and buy one. Maybe it was put together straight, maybe not.
Or how about, go to the junkyard and roll the dice and get another junk one, and maybe its welds are broken too just like all the rest, and maybe it's worse.
You obviously haven't messed around with rear end housings very much. Because if you had, you'd have run into plenty of em that you could wobble the tubes around by hand. In fact, wouldn't surprise me one bit, if YOU could walk out to YOUR car and find it in that state, just like MINE was before I had it welded up.
02-07-2015, 03:26 PM
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Car: 1989 Chevy Camaro RS
Engine: L30 TBI 5.0L Vortec
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: Stock
Oh yeah sure...
Just go down to the dealer and buy one. Maybe it was put together straight, maybe not.
Or how about, go to the junkyard and roll the dice and get another junk one, and maybe its welds are broken too just like all the rest, and maybe it's worse.
You obviously haven't messed around with rear end housings very much. Because if you had, you'd have run into plenty of em that you could wobble the tubes around by hand. In fact, wouldn't surprise me one bit, if YOU could walk out to YOUR car and find it in that state, just like MINE was before I had it welded up.
02-07-2015, 04:51 PM
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Re: Alignment issues after full front rebuild
Not much you can do, except take it out, tear it down, take the bare housing to somebody that has a fixture to straighten the tubes, and have em weld it all back up a little better than those 2 stooopid little plug welds that the factory used.
Really though, probably not worth messing with. It's just not that bad.
Really though, probably not worth messing with. It's just not that bad.
02-08-2015, 09:02 AM
#15
Re: Alignment issues after full front rebuild
The 10 bolt in my both of my S10s (88 and 89) are/were straight as an arrow. The 10 bolt in my Camaro s (85 and 91) are/were straight as an arrow. The 10 bolt in my Trans Am is straight as an arrow. I know this because I've personally performed several alignments on all of them. The Camaro and Trans Am rears have both been built by me. I do Ford driveline work for a living. Have I seen bent rear axles? Of course. Is it common? Only if you've hit a curb, been in an accident, or subjected it to the abuse that off-roading typically sees.
02-08-2015, 09:26 AM
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Re: Alignment issues after full front rebuild
EVERY GM rear I have ever worked on had loose axle tubes; usually you could see the witness marks where they'd been moving around in the pumpkin, if you cleaned up the oil that had leaked out. Some looser than others. EVERY one had oil leaks at AT LEAST ONE of the plug welds, some at all 4, some even coming out around the tubes themselves.
The #s the OP posted are pretty typical; no worse than average, and maybe even better than most; and of course, the fact that they changed SIGNIFICANTLY between alignments shows that his axle tubes are loose, same as YOURS and all the rest. Not an easy thing to "fix".
Is his car "right" like it is? NO, I didn't say that. Can his car be better than it is? YES, ABSOLUTELY. Will he ACTUALLY be able to tell any difference? I doubt it, except that he might not have fluid leaks any more.
The #s the OP posted are pretty typical; no worse than average, and maybe even better than most; and of course, the fact that they changed SIGNIFICANTLY between alignments shows that his axle tubes are loose, same as YOURS and all the rest. Not an easy thing to "fix".
Is his car "right" like it is? NO, I didn't say that. Can his car be better than it is? YES, ABSOLUTELY. Will he ACTUALLY be able to tell any difference? I doubt it, except that he might not have fluid leaks any more.
02-08-2015, 05:45 PM
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Car: 1989 Chevy Camaro RS
Engine: L30 TBI 5.0L Vortec
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: Stock
EVERY GM rear I have ever worked on had loose axle tubes; usually you could see the witness marks where they'd been moving around in the pumpkin, if you cleaned up the oil that had leaked out. Some looser than others. EVERY one had oil leaks at AT LEAST ONE of the plug welds, some at all 4, some even coming out around the tubes themselves.
The #s the OP posted are pretty typical; no worse than average, and maybe even better than most; and of course, the fact that they changed SIGNIFICANTLY between alignments shows that his axle tubes are loose, same as YOURS and all the rest. Not an easy thing to "fix".
Is his car "right" like it is? NO, I didn't say that. Can his car be better than it is? YES, ABSOLUTELY. Will he ACTUALLY be able to tell any difference? I doubt it, except that he might not have fluid leaks any more.
The #s the OP posted are pretty typical; no worse than average, and maybe even better than most; and of course, the fact that they changed SIGNIFICANTLY between alignments shows that his axle tubes are loose, same as YOURS and all the rest. Not an easy thing to "fix".
Is his car "right" like it is? NO, I didn't say that. Can his car be better than it is? YES, ABSOLUTELY. Will he ACTUALLY be able to tell any difference? I doubt it, except that he might not have fluid leaks any more.
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