SparksAj

Had an alignment done at firestone, this is the before and after, my steering wheel has some slop to it which they knew about beforehand and I let them know I didn't want an alignment done if it wasn't necessary and going to fix that. They knew that, did the alignment anyway and there is no discernable difference. Is the alignment warranted in this case or is this like changing out my spark plugs after 1000 miles?

RamIt

Ask for your money back. Those numbers are wrong and whoever did that alignment had no idea how to use the machine.

SparksAj

I dont mean to be a butt, but based on what out of curiosity? Because I swear nothing changed. And if it did it was barely anything

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

Im curious how you have 6 degrees of positive camber on one side and why they left it?
It all looks terrible except for the toe, go back and talk to a manager.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

Oh yeah, based on the rear camber difference the alignment rack was no where near level either when the work was done so none of the nmbers will mean anything

SparksAj

I may have spoken to a manager. I took it home which was 5mins away and went back immediately. I'm going to to a real alignment place where they can give me in depth info that I can parrot back, u less someone wants to give me actual things to say?

mk1431

its called a.. set the toe and let it go alignment i bet you have shims on you control arms right? they didn't want to mess with that iys not that dificult if you now what you doing

SparksAj

I have no idea to be honest, I'm sorry guys I wish I understood all of that I've never done anything with my suspension, my friend changed out my struts(or shocks, whichever the front is) and looked at my tie rods and stuff and thought everything looked good. Personally I feel like most of my stuff may be original? We did change out the front wheel bearings if that means anything

mk1431

does he remember if the bolts for the strut were the same thickness?sometimes the top and bottom bolts are a different size to adj camber thats how to adj camber with struts. you would have to pull the bolts out and compare the shoulders of the bolts you can pull one bolt at a time

SparksAj

There's no way he has any idea. he's good enough to do this stuff in his sleep but he wouldn't remember something like that, we literally did it at like 3am after him being up all day. I spoke to a tire shop today who helped explain the readout to me and that it shouldve never been done with the play in the wheel because he couldn't honor the warranty. I guess the last question before I raise hell if necessary, is, since they have repeatedly guranteed me they'll honor the warranty even if I chahe struts rods, etc. Should I fix the steering and take it back and give them another shot? Or take my money back and just have it done somewhere else. $90 for a year warranty.

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

I agree. The camber is completely wrong. The caster is completely wrong. The only thing they adjusted was the Toe In......But they adjusted that the wrong way and to the wrong setting.

Let's start with the camber. You want about -0.5 on both sides. This means the tires lean slightly towards the inside when you're driving straight down the road. The high performance guys aim for -1.0, but that will wear out your inside tire during prolonged highway driving. I would accept -0.3 as decent. Let's throw some numbers for you.

Camber settings
+"any number" = bad. You're wearing out the outside of the tire and getting no performance.
-0.3 = OK
-0.5 = Better
-0.8 = Perfect (Great performance without sacrificing wear)
-1.0 = High performance, but will wear the inside of the tire over time.

You have -5.3 camber on the left and +5.9 camber on the right. I don't see how this is even possible.


Moving on to Caster....... 3.0 is about the minimum I'd ever want to see. 4.0 is about stock. 5.0 is high performance. These should be close to the same on both sides, but with aprox 0.5 more caster on the right hand side. (This keeps the car from drifting into the sidewalk or ditch when you take your hands off the steering wheel). So the caster readings should look something like this.
Left...Right
4.0...4.5 (OK)
4.2...4.7 (Better)
4.8...5.3 (Fantastic)
You get the idea.

If you have the same settings for both sides. Say 4.5 and 4.5, the car will drive straight assuming the road is straight. But most all roads are slightly tilted to the right to allow rain water to run off. Hence the split caster numbers.

You have 0.5 caster on the left and 2.2 caster on the right. That's too much difference between left and right (it's overcompensating) and the numbers are too low on both sides.


Finally the Toe In setting. Your best bet for street driven cars is a Total Toe In of +0.09 (this is the 3/32nd figure below). If you had +0.03 (or 1/32nd), the car would be too darty at highway speeds. Wanting to zig zag over every road imperfection. Tire wear would be worse too. Rear wheel drive cars naturally toe out when driven forwards. Hence why we have Toe In in the first place. The two balance each other out and give you a nice straight driving stance.

Your car had 10/32nds of Total Toe In (+0.33) before. Waaaay too much Total Toe In. They changed it to 2/32nds of Total Toe Out (-0.06) afterwords. Remember that our cars will naturally toe out when driving. So having the car set to Toe out will mean that it's waaaay too much Toe Out when driving. This eats tires in no time at all.

Lastly, forget about the red/green color scheme in the pictures. The colors are simply wrong.

All the above is a bit tricky to figure out. But the picture below will spell it out in easy to understand settings.

SparksAj

Alright. We went with 4.8/5.3. -.5/-.5 And I guess .045/0.45? They asked for another shot. Apparently they didn't/don't/maybe do have the tool. To adjust it. If they can't get it I'll get a refund. If not then I get exactly what I wanted in first place I guess? They were clearly idiots the first time though, but we'll see.

SparksAj

Also I want to thank all of you for you're detailed explanation's. I always wondered how those riced out hondas tires stuck out so much at the angle and now I know. I'll update y'all with the results later/tomorrow depending on if they finish before I head to work

SparksAj

Obviously this one is way better, should I have them do it again or leave it this time? It does seem to tilt still, I have to turn the wheel to around 10/11 o clock but idk if that's always going to be like that until I fix the steering gear Or not

RBob

iTrader: (1)

There rack isn't repeatable, which means you can't trust those readings. Look at the bottom of the first sheet you posted (Current Measurements), which were the measurements your car had when they were done with the first alignment.

Compare those to the new printout where it states "Before Measurements." Is there any similarity between the two? Not even close.

This is why I do my own alignments.

RBob.

SparksAj

Well I was under the impression that they used a tool they didn't have before, or found a way around not having that tool And adjusted before putting it on the rack. Maybe they did an alignment in between and didn't show me it? Is it possible for them to even fake this? I'll try to stop by today to ask these questions , they seemed really eager to help the second time though

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The tool that they likely did not have is used to hold the upper strut mount while the retaining nuts are loose. It is a simple J-hook device that bolts to the fender and hooks over the strut mount.

Having or not having that tool won't make a difference in the readings. But it will make a difference in how easy it is to do the alignment.

RBob.

SlickTrackGod

Wow- that's all I can say. Lazy *** bastards.

This post was brought to my attention by Reid. As 86TA stated correctly, the first time they did it the alignment rack for some odd reason was not level and they drove the car onto it without both sides locked at the same level.

NEITHER TIME did they touch the strut mounts and even try to set camber and caster. All they touched was toe. The second printout shows a slight change in camber on both sides which is EASILY FAKED by simply pushing up the bumper and slighly unsettling the chassis from stagnant position then pressing re-read. THe camber settins will go towards positive as the body is lifted slightly.

Get your money back- WHY? the printout reads RED. Tell them you will take them to court and show the judge the "red" zones which means simply it is not correct. Walk away with a smile if they don;t help and simply file on them. You will win hands down in court.

SparksAj

Alright. If I have time I'll stop tomorrow. At the latest Wednesday. Working on tightening the steering box and it'll give me a much clearer view of how everything is. It still tilts to the right but I figured maybe it was the wheels fault. They seemed nice enough to be honest, I doubt they'll put up much of a fight


Edit: I made a separate post on it since I thought this might be done and dead, but with the steering box adjust, does the car really need to be off the ground? Will it f the box if I don't jack it up? It's such a pain to drop and raise it again

SparksAj

Refund processed no problem by the manager within two minutes. After processing, he apologized profusely about the first 'alignment' yet adamantly claims the car was legitimately aligned the second time and wanted me to bring car by to put on rack in front of me. Says the rack does not automatically print out a sheet when a cars driven on it and that's why there was no transition alignment but understood where I was coming from about things sounding fishy. Agreed first guy didn't know wtf they were doing and chewed out guy who gave me my car the first time and let me leave with it, gave me his card incase I ever do come back.