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I have a 82z28 ALLSTOCK and will be aiming for 500-550 rwhp. What suspension mods and rearend would you reccomendend for a boosted 5.3. On a budget but don't mind buying all necessities
personally, i'd do a stock rebuild on the front using all stock replacement parts from Moog- maybe upgrade the lower control arm bushings to poly. on the rear, do poly bushings and box the lower control arms.. make sure to put a poly trans mount and torque arm mount in it, or relocate the torque arm mount away from the transmission tailshaft housing to the crossmember.
personally, i'd do a stock rebuild on the front using all stock replacement parts from Moog- maybe upgrade the lower control arm bushings to poly. on the rear, do poly bushings and box the lower control arms.. make sure to put a poly trans mount and torque arm mount in it, or relocate the torque arm mount away from the transmission tailshaft housing to the crossmember.
OK so all new poly mounts? Sfc's? what aftermarket rearend is the best for the buck? Lowering springs or coilovers? Do I need any other after market suspension upgrades other then that? I'm aiming for about 550 rwhp.
OK so all new poly mounts? Sfc's? what aftermarket rearend is the best for the buck? Lowering springs or coilovers? Do I need any other after market suspension upgrades other then that? I'm aiming for about 550 rwhp.
will be aiming for 500-550 rwhp... a boosted 5.3... On a budget
Well...ahh...err...ok...low post count to boot (we were all there, once).
Please don't take offense, but this is $$$ - not budget. It's simple, go fast - empty wallet. Above 400hp or so, the rear end and tranny need work to live reliably. A 6.0 or 6.2 can get you to 500rwhp without boost (SC or turbo?) and be much more reliable and cheaper.
Application, application, application.
You've said nothing about your intended use, your budget, are you married, DIY, mechanical knowledge, garage space long term, first build, body & paint, too?
There's a wealth of knowledge on this board and many are willing to help. We cannot give you real advice until these things are stated. Just posting, I want the bestest best and the mostest most for my '82 is not going to cut it. Got any pics?
Well...ahh...err...ok...low post count to boot (we were all there, once).
Please don't take offense, but this is $$$ - not budget. It's simple, go fast - empty wallet. Above 400hp or so, the rear end and tranny need work to live reliably. A 6.0 or 6.2 can get you to 500rwhp without boost (SC or turbo?) and be much more reliable and cheaper.
Application, application, application.
You've said nothing about your intended use, your budget, are you married, DIY, mechanical knowledge, garage space long term, first build, body & paint, too?
There's a wealth of knowledge on this board and many are willing to help. We cannot give you real advice until these things are stated. Just posting, I want the bestest best and the mostest most for my '82 is not going to cut it. Got any pics?
Thanks so much for the advice I can see where I should of elaborated a little. it's an 82z28 89,xxx all original down to emissions. Auto 3 speed. Plan to do th400 instead of a 4l60e and don't want to modify tunnel for 4l80e do to my budget (12k-15k) at least for right now. But I want a strong weekend reliable driver. I have a 1 car garage built some frame off k10 (81-87) but just sbc builds never lsx. I'm no master mechanic but with instruction I can get through this I'm pretty sure. The plans 5.3, 450lph, seimens #80, s366, 3 or 4 inch ebay intercooler.
Last edited by KOHLTONR1993; 06-26-2015 at 03:21 AM.
You certainly have a great starting point.
To have a "fun" car, brakes and suspension are where it's at. They make the car fun and enjoyable to drive (not that motor isn't). All motor and no handling will mean you will eventually not drive it much.
Brakes, you don't need more than 4 piston 13" rotors. These will overpower any street tires. I prefer Wilwood w/ 2 pc. rotors (I have 6pot). Big Brake Upgrade does a nice job as well for LS1 one piece. There is no "right" recommendation, there are choices and options. Get a new MC. I like to minimize unsprung weight (especially rotating weight). This helps all your other suspension pieces do their job. On the rears, I prefer a floating caliper. The rears aren't critical on a TA car. You'll have to decide if you want visually matching calipers all around. Rear End, 12bolt is a good choice under 650rwhp. It's the lightest of your options. S60 is overkill for your application and the heaviest. 9" is not stellar in common budget form, but it offers the best potential of all the choices, but that means the most $$ to get it there. 30 spline should be fine for you. Get Big Ford housing ends with set 20 bearings. Take the TA off the trans. You should have SFC already, so you can mount to cross-member of some type. You'll need a better DS.
Now finally to suspension, around #800 fr springs, #175 rear approximately. You'll have to decide on ride height, too - more questions. You can do weight jacks up front and rear coil-overs. Get the Koni yellow front struts. Do you know the sizes of your sway bars? 36/21 mm will get you in the ballpark - JY stockers are fine, here. Poly sway bar mounts and rubber end links (don't over tighten the links). A steering brace really helps up front, too. The Jegster PHB bracket for axle side only is practically necessary, as well as LCARB's - you can weld these on the new axle before installing. LCA's and adj PHB you can use poly bushings on chasis side, make sure you get the shank style ends for axle. Opinions vary on axle side bushings, and new technology in the future will allow for new shanks threaded in. And you might have to rebuild your steering box after all these years and search the rag joint fixes around here. Front a-arms pull and install Del-alum bushings in those. Ditch the stock strut towers and get Spohn's. If you're going to adjust your alignment settings often, get DSE's, but it's xtra expense for most people. An accurate, comfortable, yet firm suspension is THE BEST mod you can do to your car. It provides the most and constant sensory feedback. You'll get more satisfaction here than motor. Most won't, but set your budget around these mods. More power can come later, and you'll be willing to invest more money/power if 'the ride' is a source of pride - looks like you already have that.
Lastly, keep the car on the road as much as possible. Long projects kill desire and interest. I would do the front brakes and front suspension first along with rear coil-overs (or rear springs & shocks). This will give the biggest sensory change and excitement. Weight jacks up front will allow you to adjust ride height through this whole process. Need your ride height to determine the rear coil-overs, as well (if shocks, then cut and re-cut rear springs).
Stay focused on a build philosophy - don't deviate all over the place.
You certainly have a great starting point.
To have a "fun" car, brakes and suspension are where it's at. They make the car fun and enjoyable to drive (not that motor isn't). All motor and no handling will mean you will eventually not drive it much.
Brakes, you don't need more than 4 piston 13" rotors. These will overpower any street tires. I prefer Wilwood w/ 2 pc. rotors (I have 6pot). Big Brake Upgrade does a nice job as well for LS1 one piece. There is no "right" recommendation, there are choices and options. Get a new MC. I like to minimize unsprung weight (especially rotating weight). This helps all your other suspension pieces do their job. On the rears, I prefer a floating caliper. The rears aren't critical on a TA car. You'll have to decide if you want visually matching calipers all around. Rear End, 12bolt is a good choice under 650rwhp. It's the lightest of your options. S60 is overkill for your application and the heaviest. 9" is not stellar in common budget form, but it offers the best potential of all the choices, but that means the most $$ to get it there. 30 spline should be fine for you. Get Big Ford housing ends with set 20 bearings. Take the TA off the trans. You should have SFC already, so you can mount to cross-member of some type. You'll need a better DS.
Now finally to suspension, around #800 fr springs, #175 rear approximately. You'll have to decide on ride height, too - more questions. You can do weight jacks up front and rear coil-overs. Get the Koni yellow front struts. Do you know the sizes of your sway bars? 36/21 mm will get you in the ballpark - JY stockers are fine, here. Poly sway bar mounts and rubber end links (don't over tighten the links). A steering brace really helps up front, too. The Jegster PHB bracket for axle side only is practically necessary, as well as LCARB's - you can weld these on the new axle before installing. LCA's and adj PHB you can use poly bushings on chasis side, make sure you get the shank style ends for axle. Opinions vary on axle side bushings, and new technology in the future will allow for new shanks threaded in. And you might have to rebuild your steering box after all these years and search the rag joint fixes around here. Front a-arms pull and install Del-alum bushings in those. Ditch the stock strut towers and get Spohn's. If you're going to adjust your alignment settings often, get DSE's, but it's xtra expense for most people. An accurate, comfortable, yet firm suspension is THE BEST mod you can do to your car. It provides the most and constant sensory feedback. You'll get more satisfaction here than motor. Most won't, but set your budget around these mods. More power can come later, and you'll be willing to invest more money/power if 'the ride' is a source of pride - looks like you already have that.
Lastly, keep the car on the road as much as possible. Long projects kill desire and interest. I would do the front brakes and front suspension first along with rear coil-overs (or rear springs & shocks). This will give the biggest sensory change and excitement. Weight jacks up front will allow you to adjust ride height through this whole process. Need your ride height to determine the rear coil-overs, as well (if shocks, then cut and re-cut rear springs).
Stay focused on a build philosophy - don't deviate all over the place.
Brian
OK so front brakes with the setup you stated above first. Then rear coil overs? Will they mount to the 12 bolt you suggested and will the rear brake upgrade be obtainable after I put aftermarket rear brakes to match front brakes size? And no I don't know the sizes of my sway bar I only want max 15k in this car but I want a pretty decent suspension, good brakes, a solid rear, and ride height. What would you do if you only had 5k to spend on suspension rear, brakes, sfcs the whole bit.
I think it's Scott at Big Brake Upgrade - get the LS1, they'll be ok for street duty - $700.
SFC - couple hundred, Koni yellows - $550 or so, Spohn strut mounts - $250?, bushings for a-arms - ? not a lot. These are critical - we're at $1800 or so
Founders LCA's, adj PHB, LCARB's, Jegster PHBR - not critical, but you do want them with your power level. - $450ish
The ride height is difficult cause you have no money - weight jacks and coil-overs. If you don't get it right, you'll be pulling them out and cutting. And you don't have the motor in with turbo and cooler. Make more money!
Originally, I said #800 because of 5.3, but with the other weight you'll be back to normal weight, anyway. I have #850 and am looking at #950. I dislike giving advice on a guess. DSE is pricey and out of your budget. But they just came out with springs optimized around a 2" drop using Koni yellow struts and shocks. These guys know what they're doing, it might be safer to bite the bullet on the springs only($195/pair - pricey but you can rely on them) - source the Koni's elsewhere. This way you're not guessing or me giving bad advice. The rear shocks and springs will be reused on 12bolt ($26-2700 - Strange or Moser your pick). Front & rear springs with rear shocks - $590 add critical components above= $2390. This gives you great springs and shocks, strut mounts, and stiffer chassis and fr brakes. That's a lot of performance for that dollar figure - even with overpaying on springs! Your car is back on the road with current drive train, stance will be off in front until you drop in 5.3.
That's w/out arms, brackets, and 12bolt or new rear brakes. Does your $5k figure include rear end? If it does, we just hit that mark w/out brakes and arms & brackets - you could limp along, bolt in (no major work) when money comes in. Or, if your purchase 12 bolt pieces and assembly yourself, you could save enough to get rear brakes.
We haven't talked about the Torque Arm set-up.
I would do the components in red, get the car back on the road, then see where you are before tackling the rear. Maybe you'll come across some deals on the motor, boost, or trans to free up some money - even used arms. With good front brakes, you could do the swap and limp gingerly on the old rear - knowing that it will go. Your call. It's just plain expensive.
I went with an LS2 with plans for h/c/i to hit just shy of 500rwhp. I'm having to make do with 380rwhp (conservative tune) while I recover from all these expenses and a level 6 trans beforehand.
TEDSgrad has you on the right path, though I would alter and see if you can get a 9" from a shop that makes rear ends. Usually there are a couple that make them with moser axles and LS brake plates for $999 plus shipping ($125ish?) Add in your gears and pumpkin inards and you can have a good rear end for 1500-2000. There is also the rarely done but strong and inexpensive ford 8.8 conversion. If you have the fab skills or know of a good local fab shop you can have a rearend supposedly capable of 500 hp for $400-800.
I am also of the belief that unless you are at a professional level or competing for money you can get these cars down to low 3000 lbs where 400 horsepower is enough. Properly set up 400 hp in low 3000 lbs will do 11 sec 1/4 miles and perform wonderfully on an autocross and road course. You always have to remember to put it in perspective that many of these newer cars with 350-500 hp weigh around 4000 lbs.
Rear End, 12bolt is a good choice under 650rwhp. It's the lightest of your options. S60 is overkill for your application and the heaviest. 9" is not stellar in common budget form, but it offers the best potential of all the choices, but that means the most $$ to get it there. 30 spline should be fine for you. Get Big Ford housing ends with set 20 bearings.
Lets not forget that the S60 is the most power efficient (least power loss), 12 bolt is second, and the 9" is the most power inefficient. Ever heard the old saying " 9" is strong but a 12 bolt is faster."?
Lets not forget that the S60 is the most power efficient (least power loss), 12 bolt is second, and the 9" is the most power inefficient. Ever heard the old saying " 9" is strong but a 12 bolt is faster."?
No, S60 is second (mass), 9" last due to offset pinion. In this whole argument, we're talking single digit hp numbers (maybe low teens at most). OP wants a weekend warrior and budget conscious. It really comes down to what he can find (used and rebuild) or buy new - and with the desired housing ends (important) for brake selection and longevity (500+rwhp).
KOHLTONR1993; Do you have the motor, already? Trans already?
With your budget, sequence and time may help if your willing to install N/A, work out the gremlins, then turbo. You could also source a low mileage trans to put in with the N/A, then rebuild as needed. If by slight chance your front sits a little higher than rear, a simple spacer in rear will equal them out. Rear springs are easy, fronts not so.
The philosophy is this: do brakes & suspension first, then the engine/trans swap, then start from rear of car and work forward as far as strengthening everything for the power to come (turbo being last). This also keeps the car on the road the most through the process. This has been my process, of course, opinions vary.
Dampahs & rubbahs are crucial suspension components - I'll add springs, too. We haven't talked wheels, are those 17's?
Here's me @ Road America after the brakes & suspension upgrades and interior, still with 214k L98 & 9bolt and before body & paint. It's important to have fun!! Even if you're not where you want to be, yet.
I think it's Scott at Big Brake Upgrade - get the LS1, they'll be ok for street duty - $700.
SFC - couple hundred, Koni yellows - $550 or so, Spohn strut mounts - $250?, bushings for a-arms - ? not a lot. These are critical - we're at $1800 or so
Founders LCA's, adj PHB, LCARB's, Jegster PHBR - not critical, but you do want them with your power level. - $450ish
The ride height is difficult cause you have no money - weight jacks and coil-overs. If you don't get it right, you'll be pulling them out and cutting. And you don't have the motor in with turbo and cooler. Make more money!
Originally, I said #800 because of 5.3, but with the other weight you'll be back to normal weight, anyway. I have #850 and am looking at #950. I dislike giving advice on a guess. DSE is pricey and out of your budget. But they just came out with springs optimized around a 2" drop using Koni yellow struts and shocks. These guys know what they're doing, it might be safer to bite the bullet on the springs only($195/pair - pricey but you can rely on them) - source the Koni's elsewhere. This way you're not guessing or me giving bad advice. The rear shocks and springs will be reused on 12bolt ($26-2700 - Strange or Moser your pick). Front & rear springs with rear shocks - $590 add critical components above= $2390. This gives you great springs and shocks, strut mounts, and stiffer chassis and fr brakes. That's a lot of performance for that dollar figure - even with overpaying on springs! Your car is back on the road with current drive train, stance will be off in front until you drop in 5.3.
That's w/out arms, brackets, and 12bolt or new rear brakes. Does your $5k figure include rear end? If it does, we just hit that mark w/out brakes and arms & brackets - you could limp along, bolt in (no major work) when money comes in. Or, if your purchase 12 bolt pieces and assembly yourself, you could save enough to get rear brakes.
We haven't talked about the Torque Arm set-up.
I would do the components in red, get the car back on the road, then see where you are before tackling the rear. Maybe you'll come across some deals on the motor, boost, or trans to free up some money - even used arms. With good front brakes, you could do the swap and limp gingerly on the old rear - knowing that it will go. Your call. It's just plain expensive.
I went with an LS2 with plans for h/c/i to hit just shy of 500rwhp. I'm having to make do with 380rwhp (conservative tune) while I recover from all these expenses and a level 6 trans beforehand.
Thanks for the advice man alot! But a little confused on springs and shocks so I should get koni yellows for fronts and the 2 inch drop springs? And reuse stock shocks and springs on rear...? Or would I keep original shocks and put 2 inch drop springs for rear too? Sorry lmao so get koni yellows and 2 inch drops for front and rear? If so what shocks for rear? I just confused the hell out of myself
Last edited by KOHLTONR1993; 07-16-2015 at 01:21 AM.
Springs are a set and are designed to work together. Buy the Koni yellow front struts, Strano Performance is having a sale through Aug 31.
For the rear shock, Viking or QA1. You'll be looking for Single Adj (budget) smooth body shock with a range (intended ride height of 14"). Viking has a D209/10 that is the right shock (but a double adj), but has the wrong attachment ends. You want the stock attachment ends that are on the B223 (but this shock has a stock ride height of 16"). You'll have to call them and ask if they'll make the D209/10 with the stock upper stud and lower eyelet attachments on the shock. If not, call Sharon Naake at Naake shocks and give her the same info, and they'll get you a QA1 shock. Stock shocks will not be designed around the 2" drop.
QA1 has a TS510 designed for Corvettes
Compressed: 11.25
Xtended: 16.25
Range or intended ride height = 13.75. With those 2" drop springs your ride height is 14". 0.25" off is just fine. The ends are upper stud (perfect) and lower t-bar. Looks like you could get rid of t-bar and end up with eyelet.
Pic is TD510 (d=double adj, s=single adj).
So, with springs, dampers, and strut mounts you have a solid foundation with an excellent ride height and all components working with that ride height.
Do the front brakes with this, and get back on the road. Plan and complete the swap, then revisit the other suspension components as time/money allows.
Springs are a set and are designed to work together. Buy the Koni yellow front struts, Strano Performance is having a sale through Aug 31.
For the rear shock, Viking or QA1. You'll be looking for Single Adj (budget) smooth body shock with a range (intended ride height of 14"). Viking has a D209/10 that is the right shock (but a double adj), but has the wrong attachment ends. You want the stock attachment ends that are on the B223 (but this shock has a stock ride height of 16"). You'll have to call them and ask if they'll make the D209/10 with the stock upper stud and lower eyelet attachments on the shock. If not, call Sharon Naake at Naake shocks and give her the same info, and they'll get you a QA1 shock. Stock shocks will not be designed around the 2" drop.
Stay away from QA1, they are crap design. I used Naake to rebuild ours on the NASCAR team in 2008 when we were required to run QA1's and Naake is a great shop for quality- it is just the shocks are crap. I would never again buy from them. We now have a choice of Afco, Carrera, QA1, and ARS. I use AFCO now without the leakage probelms of QA1 crap.
I do not have any personal experience with Viking, However the owner used to be the CEO of QA1 if that sends up any red flags.
Just buy a Koni yellow Monotube universal and upside down mount it and call it a day- Inexpensive and will last a lifetime. I would recommend a fixed compression valve of about 4 in most applications on a 3rd gen. The rebound is adjustable. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/kon-30-7436/overview/
Ill let everyone in on a big secret I have never revealed. My rear springs were out of a ST Sport spring kit. I only used the rears and they are Progressive rate. I purposely used a rear progressive spring to avoid the rear jacking effect these cars suffer from. The progressive spring reduces body "uplifing" or "jacking" as the car gets on the brakes. While reducing the tq arm length will help eliminate this, the shorter tq arm produces wheel hop and thus a very stiff rear spring is needed.That Suspension Techniques part number is 60110. (again, I only used the rears out of this kit.)
Last edited by SlickTrackGod; 07-17-2015 at 12:32 PM.
Ill give a direct comparison of two cars on the same track. My old Camaro with 16x8's 245-50-16's, and Mike's Camaro with 18x9 fronts and 18x11 rears. My car has much less rubber but was much faster. Watch the rear end of the cars in each video. His car unloaded via rear jacking coming into every braking corner and got the car a little squirrelly each corner as a result.
Will work - keep Koni on *ll four (* is for *pple - key not working on my keybo*rd).
You c*n re*lly see the re*r roll on yours in the vids. Why I ditched my 24mm *nd went to l9mm b*r
That's funny. Mine problem is usually bad batteries in a wireless keyboard.
Rear roll is not from the rear swaybar being too large That would be opposite Brian.
What you will see in the video is early in the build of that car. The front roll center was in the dirt and still had not corrected the rear either. Rear of the other car lifts both sides as the outside front dives in a cantered effect. This is what all 3rd gens do when lowered without roll center corrections- combined with linear springs. When you look at cars from the rear you will see both sides going up in the air. Mine only had the inside going up and the outside rear staying put or squating in lateral compression.
THis was before a lot of modifications I later did to this car sorting it out. I rarely drove this car (it was the ex wifes) and this was just a test day for me as I was starting to build it to get some track imput. It was the year after this I added the Wilwood brakes and really delve into modifying this car with tons of parts. It even still had the stock seats, no CF driveshaft, no built rearend with lightweight axles, No RC adjustment provisions, no polar weight reductions. That car would have later run that same course in a least 3 seconds faster
The purpose of that early video of the car was to show how the progressive springs made a difference on a fairly stock equal value cars.
I have only seen one car that negated this by having the rear RC dropped about 3-4 inches. That car was so tight and so heavily rear spring at the same time every was fighting eachother- mainly tire scrub. The rear springs were so stiff there was no loaded energy to release.
Last edited by SlickTrackGod; 07-17-2015 at 05:18 PM.
Yes, my inference w*s th*t * sm*ller b*r lets it roll - th*t's why I moved down in size with #200 re*r springs.
This vid w*s before you ch*nged to 23/24 re*r b*r?
Allright! USB keyboard and I can use all the "a" words I want.
Ready to pull the trigger on alittle bit have $3000 I want motor in and movable I got a ls1 with 102,000 I'm getting bottom end freshened up then I have a set of 241 heads that are half hand ported that I need to have reworked or is there cheap aftermarket heads or oem ones that would be pretty cheap, Brian tooley stage three cam in box with. The rear I'm using is a forth gen rear with 4.11 gear. The goal is to have th350 or th400 or 4l60e manuel valve body doesnt matter. i would like to have less then $700 in shifter and trans allI complete. And 2300 in suspension set up for auto cross. Plans changed greatly I apoligize. I'm about half asleep trying to wrench on this old crossfire motor. Let me know where I should put my money in suspension I need a running and driving vehicle with this $3000 also have 99 donor car with tank and harness but setup for t56 I also have 5.3 auto with harness and ecm as well whatever you think we can get figured out please let me know asap
$2300 budget:
Get the Koni yellow struts (550 or so), Global West Del-a-Lum bushing kit (150) & Wonderbar (50), Spohn Strut Mounts (290) & Front End rebuild kit (300, or Moog),
Founder's LCARB's (50) and LCA's (150) and adj PHB (80), Jegster PHB Bracket (80), springs (200) = $1930 approx. w/out rear shocks, alignment, or the brakes.
The ones in bold are critical (buy new) and should be done while you have everything apart. The Jegster and LCARB really should be done at this time, too.
The others are bolt-on stuff that can be acquired later if money gets tight and won't require another alignment. Look around on the board here, buy used where you can replace bushing ends (shanks) for this kind of stuff.
Look everything up on line, but call and ask for specials - asking is free! Companies want business before the years' end.
$2300 budget:
Get the Koni yellow struts (550 or so), Global West Del-a-Lum bushing kit (150) & Wonderbar (50), Spohn Strut Mounts (290) & Front End rebuild kit (300, or Moog),
Founder's LCARB's (50) and LCA's (150) and adj PHB (80), Jegster PHB Bracket (80), springs (200) = $1930 approx. w/out rear shocks, alignment, or the brakes.
The ones in bold are critical (buy new) and should be done while you have everything apart. The Jegster and LCARB really should be done at this time, too.
The others are bolt-on stuff that can be acquired later if money gets tight and won't require another alignment. Look around on the board here, buy used where you can replace bushing ends (shanks) for this kind of stuff.
Look everything up on line, but call and ask for specials - asking is free! Companies want business before the years' end.
I would just go with Founders for the Strut Mounts as well, they are $170 new.
You could always wait to next spring when Koni does it's sale and get all 4 yellows for 600 give or take.
06-16-2015, 06:59 PM
so get koni yellows and 2 inch drops for front and rear? If so what shocks for rear? I just confused the hell out of myself
That would be opposite Brian.
