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Had gas a just with 200lb rear weight jacks and up front had cut moog 5664s and kyb agx adjustables.
Now I have 850 front springs and weight jacks and kyb agxs. My rear I've stepped down from 200 to 150 to soften the ride alittle. I still have OEM ws6 sway bars but everything is poly. Full rod end rear suspension.
I'm looking for a decent rear adjustable shock something I can dial is the soft to more rigid suspension for comfort. Car is a show/fun car and doesn't see autoX but will see drag racing once in a while.
So far I've looked at kyb agx, koni yellows. I don't need a high end shock just something I can dial down for cruising and dial up firmness for spirited driving on the street.
I know there are varishock, qa1, AFCO etc but not looking to spend a lot of coin.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/be...model/firebird
these are what i went with i can't comment on how they feel yet due to the car still being in mostly pieces but they have good reviews. these aren't adjustable though
I would have gone with a smaller rear bar in your Fordula.
I have the same 850/200, and just got a 19mm from JY. And you have a BB. My thinking has always been, set your spring rates, then tweak other stuff from there, but others have different thoughts. Do you have the 36/24?
I would have gone with a smaller rear bar in your Fordula.
I have the same 850/200, and just got a 19mm from JY. And you have a BB. My thinking has always been, set your spring rates, then tweak other stuff from there, but others have different thoughts. Do you have the 36/24?
Ha "fordula"... nice lol. I personally call it a fordiac.
I haven't touched the sway bars, they are all OEM WS6, 36/24. Car was a stock suspension formula 350. All Ive ever done is upgrade the sway bar endlinks and bushings to poly.
I now have 850/150 springs, both on weight jacks. The Everything is tubular:
Rear:
UMI double rod end rear LCAs, custom made LCA relocation brackets
UMI double rod end Panhard bar
Founders tubular Panhard bar, for dual exhaust, lowered at frame and I have made it adjustable at the rear as well.
Custom shorty adjustable tubular tq arm with tunnel mount.
OEM WS6 24mm rear sway bar with poly bushings/endlinks
2 sets of SFC, thru floor and perimeter style.
150lb truecoil 5" rear springs with weight jacks.
Front:
Racecraft Moly Kmember
UMI stock style tubular LCAs with poly bushings
Weight jacks 9" 850lb truecoil springs
TDS wonder bar
Custom 3 pt DOM tubular STB
KYB AGX struts
Hotpart CC plates
Stock 36mm WS6 sway bar with poly bushings and endlinks.
The car does have a 8pt roll bar but I remove the swing out door bars for the street. It has been lightened a bit with the rear seats removed, OEM camaro high rise spoiler, Aftermarket summit 5pt racing seats, Fiberglass 4" glastek hood, and everything removed from the engine bay besides the battery and the engine. The BBF as been converted to mostly aluminum so it weights about as much as an all iron SBC. So its not that bad lol... but the engine weight does sit higher in the engine bay since the BBF is massive (tall and wide) compared to the tiny SBC.
I've heard the Koni Yellows are too stiff on the lowest setting for the rears. But they will cost me about as much as the AGXs.
A lot of nice parts!
With lowering the PHB, you really need the #200. Those rear weight jacks have small springs which make me nervous, but if it's working for you, great (but it's another reason to up the rate). AND, you have a short TA. With the power of the BB, you have another reason to keep force on the tires. The reasons are adding up.
The stock 36/24 is tight to begin with. Experimenting with JY bars is cheap and valuable education.
Interesting on the increased spring rate for the lowered PHB. Why is that?
I had the 200lb in the rear and the cut moog 5664s up front (math said it was around 900-950lb rate with almost 2 coils cut). I felt that was too stiff for the street, so in the hopes of softening up the suspension up I lowered the rate slightly. I dont run the GC weight jacks, I used a hidden shim style (kinda of like the GC kit) but uses a circle track 5" spring so my options are limitless and cheap. They are true 5" springs by 10.5" height at 150lb rate. Stock is only 105lb with the moog 5665s. Depending on how it feels if Its too soft I might step up to 175lb but I doubt it as Thats too stiff in the rear for the drag strip... very little weight transfer.
how much are the JY sway bars? and where do you get them from?
does anyone have some recommendations for rear shocks that are adjustable for a good price?
well at any rate lol you have a lot more one then i have i wanted tubed control arms so bad for the front then i seen the 600+ price tag and went (((( lol anyway the car should be together in a couple of weeks when it goes together ill report back on the shocks.
The following is cut & paste from others: An increase in rear roll stiffness is a practical requirement when dropping the PHB . You would need to include a bigger rear bar (and/or stiffer rear springs) otherwise the car would understeer with the lowered PHB.
Changing the roll center has no effect in a straight line. However, it does require increasing the rear roll stiffness (or decreasing the front roll stiffness) to keep the car balanced.
Lowering the rear roll center (and rebalancing the car accordingly) will make the car more predictable in the turns.
Lowering the rear roll center reduces the percentage of lateral weight transfer that occurs at the rear. To restore the balanced weight transfer, the rear springs, swaybar, and shock rebound damping need to be stiffer. Springs/swaybars, shocks, and the PHB don't transfer weight at exactly the same time. Adjusting the balance between them changes the handling characteristic of the car. That force always acts at CG level, regardless of the RC location. Since the RC is the point around which that end of the rolls, it's the lever arm between the RC and the CG that determines how much a car rolls in response to a given lateral acceleration force. A stiffer bar will control roll rate, but not heave/jacking. Upping spring rates will help with both (and you have shorter TA). Also, your rear doesn't work by itself as the relative RC heights matter (roll couple), too - your BBF sitting higher and you don't have LBJ listed as a mod.
You do need to stiffen with Lower PHB. How you do that and how much is very debatable. Your #850 fronts lead me to #200 rears (hey, that's what I have). My personal choice is to set springs, and adjust from there. BUT YOU HAVE TO EXPERIMENT ON CAR. You now have two sets of springs, get two sets of bars. I got my 19mm last week for $30. Asked how much for them to pull - $15. I'm not getting on my back in the yard fighting rust for that - $45 in my clean hands. Sandblasted and POR-15 now waiting for bushings this week.
Shocks, I think Koni can't be beat for perf & price.
Keep the thread going with results from experimentation!
Brian
well at any rate lol you have a lot more one then i have i wanted tubed control arms so bad for the front then i seen the 600+ price tag and went (((( lol anyway the car should be together in a couple of weeks when it goes together ill report back on the shocks.
Yea its been alot of work over the years, but I very rarely pay full price for something. I got the UMI front control arms used for like 1/2 price. I also got the Moly Kmember brand new in box from a guy who bought it for a customer and the guy backed out so I got it for like $400 which is less than 1/2 Price so I jumped on it.
I did pay for the rear LCAs, PHB but I believe I waited for a sale. Now I made my shorty Tq arm for less than $100. I could make the LCAs and PHB cheap now since I can get DOM tubing, threaded ends etc.
The following is cut & paste from others: An increase in rear roll stiffness is a practical requirement when dropping the PHB . You would need to include a bigger rear bar (and/or stiffer rear springs) otherwise the car would understeer with the lowered PHB.
Changing the roll center has no effect in a straight line. However, it does require increasing the rear roll stiffness (or decreasing the front roll stiffness) to keep the car balanced.
Lowering the rear roll center (and rebalancing the car accordingly) will make the car more predictable in the turns.
Lowering the rear roll center reduces the percentage of lateral weight transfer that occurs at the rear. To restore the balanced weight transfer, the rear springs, swaybar, and shock rebound damping need to be stiffer. Springs/swaybars, shocks, and the PHB don't transfer weight at exactly the same time. Adjusting the balance between them changes the handling characteristic of the car. That force always acts at CG level, regardless of the RC location. Since the RC is the point around which that end of the rolls, it's the lever arm between the RC and the CG that determines how much a car rolls in response to a given lateral acceleration force. A stiffer bar will control roll rate, but not heave/jacking. Upping spring rates will help with both (and you have shorter TA). Also, your rear doesn't work by itself as the relative RC heights matter (roll couple), too - your BBF sitting higher and you don't have LBJ listed as a mod.
You do need to stiffen with Lower PHB. How you do that and how much is very debatable. Your #850 fronts lead me to #200 rears (hey, that's what I have). My personal choice is to set springs, and adjust from there. BUT YOU HAVE TO EXPERIMENT ON CAR. You now have two sets of springs, get two sets of bars. I got my 19mm last week for $30. Asked how much for them to pull - $15. I'm not getting on my back in the yard fighting rust for that - $45 in my clean hands. Sandblasted and POR-15 now waiting for bushings this week.
Shocks, I think Koni can't be beat for perf & price.
Keep the thread going with results from experimentation!
Brian
Hmmm interesting. I will have to reread that a few times. I Personally would rather thicker sway bars and softer springs. Usually leads to a softer ride quality. But I think I understand. I dont have extended lower ball joints (LBJ's?) but the car isn't slammed, I can only go so far due to the Kmember and dual exhaust so I would say its around the sportlines drop. Now after the spring change and weight jacks I have no idea what ride height will be. Unfortunately I sold the 200lb springs but they are not expensive to replace. Will have to see how they feel on the car.
I feel that the PHB relocation (founders/UMI/BMR etc) don't lower it a whole ton (Maybe 2"). I guess when the car is lowered it compounds the problem tho.
I think I'm gona go with Koni but just wanted to hear any other options.
ya so far my suspension mods include. kyb excel gs for the front. all poly bushings. non adjustable full size eldelbrock torque arm, lakewood rear boxed style control arms. drilled slotted breaks. the bell techs for the rear. * im probably going to look into a after market pan hard bar and sway bars. and im running 275 65 r 15's in the rears on Chevy rally wheels
Soooo I was looking at the koni and they have the adjustment **** on the top? so I have to connect the **** inside the car to adjust the valving? And does it stay attached or do I take it off to hide it under the carpet.
I like how the AGXs adjustment **** is like a normal adjustable shock **** on the bottom for easy access.
Yes, when the car is lowered is compounds the problem - you lowered both ends of PHB, correct?
The big bar/softer springs is the other side of the debate. It causes more dive & squat, more suspension travel, more violent weight xfer (choice of words?). While this is another way to skin the cat, you have already lowered the car some - so lots of suspension travel goes against this scenario. Stiff bars can lift the inside tire off the surface, and you're already needing to combat understeer/push. And you now have a softer spring which cannot combat the big bar for inside lift --> Understeer, then big squat on accel.
While the big bar/soft spring is viable standing alone, you have made decisions where it is not viable combined. The good news is that your front is good (xcept RC), and rear spring/bar changes aren't difficult or expensive. They're worth changing & learning - more members should do it and learn how the car changes!
The LBJ's will raise fr RC a little, helping the roll couple, and geometry. I have 2" drop spindles and lowered the axle side PHB only.
IMO, you could go #175/21mm or #200/19mm. Too bad you don't have the #200's. You would be able to tell with a #50 difference, which one, or #175 you like. BUT you've never tried a bar change to tell that, either.
I have no experience with rear Koni's.
hmmm, I see. yes the frame side of the PHB is lowered with the new tubular founders PHB designed to allow dual exhaust (more clearance). the brace I designed on the rear allows for considerable drop of the PHB to get it level at ride height. Originally I had the OEM PHB brace, and my UMI double rod end PHB at the stock location on the frame but Had it lowered about 1" or slightly more at the rear to compensate for the lowered ride height. It will most likely need to be dropped 1 more hole or about another inch or so to compensate for the lowered PHB frame mounting point.
I see what your saying about the softer spring rates. Perhaps I'll experiment with the 175 and 200 when i get some time with the car on the road. The springs are only about $70 for a pair. But it makes sense that the springs need to fight the sway bar. The squat/lift of there rear springs is also affected by the shocks valving as well as the sway bar no?
How do you like the QA1 coil overs in the rear? I literally just sold my brand new QA1 rear coil overs today and shipped them out earlier. I didn't like the compressed height of the shocks at how much I wanted it lowered. Then the angle of the spring shock was bugging me. Hence why I sold the weight jacks and now I'm going back to OEM setup with weight jacks again.
For the record this car will never see a road coarse. Barely 1 drag day a year if I'm lucky and its mostly street/highway miles to and from car shows etc. I will not be beating on this thing like you do. I really just want something that handles better than stock and not too harsh on the street.
The squat/lift of there rear springs is also affected by the shocks valving as well as the sway bar no?
How do you like the QA1 coil overs in the rear? I literally just sold my brand new QA1 rear coil overs today and shipped them out earlier. I didn't like the compressed height of the shocks at how much I wanted it lowered.
Yes, shock valving, too.
What I would really like to investigate is springs/shocks/bars/PHB how they xfer weight differently - act, speed of xfer, etc. But my head could start to hurt real fast.
I like the QA1, they are more than enough for most people, and the next performance step-up is a big step in cost. I agree with you compressed assessments. While the Spohn package is good, the shock they supply is stock ride height shock. Most people buy them thinking they can drop 2" or more. You really only have 1" or so to play with on a coil over. I'm getting ready to replace the supplied DS703 with DS501 which is more appropriate for a 14" height (eyelet to eyelet). I can re-use all hardware including spring. Minor mod to 501 to get them to a 503 (mounting hardware) - $158/shock thru Naake (they do the mod).
Spohn should really offer the two options in their catalog for those who want a drop.
supplied DS703 - 13" collapsed, 19.5" xtended = 16" range
DS603 - 12.5" collapsed, 18.75" xtended = 15.25" range
DS501 - 14" range which is perfect
And I called DSE on their JRi - 12" compressed, 17" xtended = 14" range BINGO, they corroborate.
And DSE has #225 spring on theirs! w/#950 front.
My car is more of a highway than "street" car. I'm trying to optimize all mods around a 60 mph roll; stop, accel., turn, cam, shift points, etc - a nimble highway car. I don't find the #200 too stiff (everyone is different), but need the smaller bar so the rear doesn't skip or skitter around in town from the tightness of the 24mm bar. This is also my vacation car.
I just wanted to update the thread. I decided to get Viking double adjustable rear shocks for an OEM type setup. I got them from UMI when they had the july 4th 10% off so they were like $150 a shock vs the $110 for the koni yellow. I figured the ability to rebuild the shock and the ability to control compression and rebound individually (#361 combos total) is well worth the $40 per shock or $80 total. I received them today and they look pretty sweet!
Thanks for choosing umi!
We've been running and abusing the double adj. vikings on our house cars with excellent success.They are a great shock that won't break the bank.
If anybody is interested give me a call and i can quote you some prices.
We also carry QA1 and UMI shocks.
Viking is good.
Do you know the model #? What is the RANGE of the shock. You cut some coils to lower. Stock shock range should be 16".
When the suspension is loaded, measure the eyelet to eyelet distance. Hopefully, it's within an inch of the range of the shock.
I can't remember but thought I read 12.3" compressed and 18" extended. I will try to see if I can figure it out for u, but I should be fine as I'm not lowered that much. The spohn coil overs were the worst be of the style mount at the top. I have my shock instructions but the part number is on the shock, the instructions are general and leave the last 2 numbers blank for different models.
To clarify, I run a circle track weight jack in the OEM location, prob 1/2 thick when bottomed out, and then a 10.5"x5" 150lb circle track spring, so total free height is 11" roughly in the stock location.
That's about a 15" range. If you only dropped an inch, you'll be perfect. If 2", you're borderline (14") with a little room to compressed height. Still better than Spohn's DS703. The beauty with weight jacks is you can get it right.
Last number (maybe two) are probably attachment end designations.
QA1 TD704:
Compressed Height - 12.25"
Extended Height - 19.00"
Upper Mount - Stud
Lower Mount - Eyelet
This would have a range of 15.75" approx. = 15.5" is likely
Since Viking guys are former QA1 employees are also in Lakeville, MN, the specs probably do correspond.
You're back in the 7xx series just like the DS703.
Yea... Ive heard to many horror stories of leaky QA1 shocks blowing seals really quickly. Thats when I heard that the vikings are built a bit better and the best bang for your buck.
Blowing if seals is in large part to operating shocks out of range. IMO, QA1 & Viking are synonymous - QA1 has larger network and support.
At one inch lower, you're fine. More, choose a better fit.
So dropping the car more than 2" would be a problem for this shock right?
Yes.
Call them and ask for the same attachment ends on a D209 or D210 - upper stud, lower eyelet (page 17 on-line catalog). These also have double adj. Same basic shock just listed under custom mount shocks versus the stockers (which will not have the correct range for a lowered/non-stock vehicle, page 24). It's all in the details.
Once you know they can do it, call UMI back and run it through them since you'll return through them, they can have the right info for the next lowered guy that wants the correct range. .
If Viking won't do it. Call Sharon Naake (google "Naake shocks"). Tell her you want upper stud/lower eyelet on a double adj smooth body shock for 14" ride height. They'll get it to you, but it will be QA1.
Got the shocks installed and set had the weight jacks lowered for the lowest ride height. Car is not on its own weight but its in the air and i jacked up the rear till it almost pushed the car up and I have 3" of shock travel before bottoming out. Car will most likely not be this low so I should have about 3.5-4" of shock travel on compression and about 3" on rebound.
I also decided on putting the adjustment ***** on the inside of the car toward the sway bars for access when the car is on the ground. Not sure how others with the adjustable shocks have it.
Finnally got my car on the ground after a long winter/spring of mods.
I changed up my suspension a good bit and thats where my new problem lies. I replaced my 200lb 5x11" Afco rear springs with weight jack and KYB gas a just rear shocks for my new setup. The 200lb springs seemed to sit just a tad too high for me at the lowest setting and since I went with different front springs I decided to go for a softer/smoother ride. I put 150lb 5x10.5" springs with the same style weight jacks and new double adjustable viking rear shocks. Now The car sat so low on the lowest setting that I had to adjust the rear weight jack for 2" increased height to get it back where it was roughly. This is at the top of my adjustment for the most part and I want to increase the height with either a billet 2" spring spacer for the top or get a taller spring and maybe alittle more rate. I was looking at a 175lb 5x13" spring instead and get some 7/8" rubber spacers in case. Or I was looking at getting some billet 2-2.25" spring spacers to use with my current springs. The 150s seem a bit soft for me just pushing down on the rear with my weight and I have done some suspension changes. I've also used the founders panhard bar relocation so the bar is lowered at both the axle and frame for the dual exhaust.
So my rear options are:
1. Keep the 150lb 5x10.5" springs and get 2" spacers for a 150lb 5x12.5" spring for like $55
2. Get new 175lb/200lb 5x13" springs and rubber 7/8" spacers for $100
Now my front is also doing funky things. I swapped out my stock Kmember for a Racecraft moly Kmember and reused my UMI tubular Aarms. I swapped out my cut moog 5664s which had a 26 5/8" fender height and roughly a 12" free height with I believe a 900lb ish spring rate. I fabbed up my own weight jacks using a design almost identical to the weight jack companys. I run a 850lb 5x9.5" spring, the adjustment plate and poly spring isolator add the same 2-2.5" to the top of the spring for a total spring height of 11.5 - 12". So it should be close to the same ride height as before with simular spring rates and free heights. I verified that the springs are fully seated and Im at the lowest ride height on the jacks but my ride height now is at 27.5". I also have full and easy suspension travel pushing down on the strut towers so nothing is hanging up. The suspension seems softer than the old combo as its much easier to compress the front end than before. I also changed my KYB AGX struts from the firmest setting to the softest so maybe thats why.
So can someone explain why the front is 1" higher than before? The look is killing me, given it hasn't really settled since the car isn't being driven for at least a full month.
Also is the 150lb spring with a 2" spacer a better fit or the 175lb spring with the front 850lb spring setup. I think the 175lb spring is a better suited since it was also recommended by a member here for the front spring change. I had 200lb and with the front cut moogs the car felt stiff on the road and wanted to soften it up a bit hence the lower spring rates.
06-28-2015, 10:16 PM
(((( lol anyway the car should be together in a couple of weeks when it goes together ill report back on the shocks. 
.
