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I just recently got the the '87 TA back together (top end swap), for packaging reasons I needed to move the PS pump and ended up taking the reservoir off to put the mount that most have that ours didn't get drilled in it so I could mount it like I wanted to.
Well, got it started and no power steering. I came to the conclusion that the PS pump wasn't building any pressure (if I turned it lock to lock in the air to try to bleed it I didn't get any nose from the pressure relief at the end of it's travel).
So I found a spare power steering pump in the garage in a bucket under the bench (I'm pretty sure it was from my '83 TA).
Somehow draining all the ps fluid, pulling the pump, pulling the pulley (that job sucks), disassembling it, doing the same with the second pump, putting the "new" pump into the reservoir and brackets that work on the car now, getting it all back together, filling and pulling a vacuum on the system to purge all the air out... Turned into a 5 hour job. :-/
Got in, started up, backed out the the driveway. I have power steering!!! :-)
For about 3 miles.
I pull into a parking lot to turn around and I momentarily loose assist turning around but it comes right back. Huh, Ok, just put a new pump on it, I guess I hit an air bubble.
Nope, it just kept getting worse. >:-(
By the time I got it back in the driveway I almost don't have power assist. WTF?
Anyone have any ideas what's going on? Heck, does anyone have any ideas who I can talk to that might???
Pump #3 is dead. This one lasted ~10 miles (when I say that about these pumps, I'm saying that they did work OK for a few miles). This time:
- went through Cardone's power steering tech sight https://www.cardone.com/tech-help/steering , literally read everthing in case there was stuff I didn't think of (really good site btw, even has testing results of different PS fluids on the market)
- flushed the original mess before putting the new pump on by cranking the steering back and forth till it pumped everything out of the gear
- Pulled my last PS pump (off the '87 formula parts car, it worked fine when I parked it), pulled it out of the reservior and stuck it in the new one. Made sure everything was spotless
- Flushed (Using cardone's procedure for flushing out contaminants) everthing without starting it and with the return disconnected, so any dirt in the system couldn't go back in the pump. In the end I've flushed over 3 quarts of fluid through the gear and lines trying to clean it out. The last maybe almost quart was commming out looking new
- Installed a Cardone filter/magnetic trap in the return line.
- purged the air 2 ways each time, first by pulling a vacuum on the pump (which supposedly works better than cranking the wheel while running) and then cranked the wheel while running just to be sure
- Fluid in this pump still looks clean, no foaming or anything, the fluid in the previous 2 (before all the flushing) was dark, but no visible solid particals, and I swished a strong magnet around in it and nothing stuck to it.
- no funny noises from the thing at all. Not on inital start up, not when it's working, not when it's failing, not when it fails...
I have no more pumps laying around, my driveway and garage are a disaster (try pulling 3 pumps out of vehicles, pulling them out of reserviors, reassembling, doing all that flushing and purging, help from Byron ;-) ... without spilling any on anything. It's impossible), my back was sore before I did this, now it's sore and I'm pissed off. Even the "shop dog" has gotten tired of watching me swear at this thing.
Why do you hate to post that? (I hate the idea of replacing the steering box, no idea how much work it is)
Bad in what way? like what could cause it to kill pumps _that fast_ with no symptoms and still seem to work fine?
The thing is that I took the car apart for what turned into 2 months to do a top end swap (converted/ported/modified LT1 heads + electric water pump which resulted in me needing to move the accessories around and the different PS bracket I came up with needed to modify the reservoir so every time I do this I have to swap reservoirs, cam, intake...). Everything was fine with the PS when I took it apart, didn't mess with the inside of the pump, didn't mess with the steering box/plumbing/linkage... put it back together and this.
Secondly, I keep getting "contaminated fluid is killing the pumps," but this time I went to a lot of effort flushing it out completely and then even added the recommended filter. Previously the fluid was dark but no solids and no metal (or any evidence of the pump ACTUALLY self destructing) no noise when it happens. This time after flushing everything the fluid even still looks new (I've probably driven it 10-15miles)
when I say I modified the reservior on the pump, all I did was added the hole on the rh side like most other saganaw pumps have and used the existing threaded boss/added the correct o-ring seal, nothing special. I think I can just buy an '80's/90's truck pump and get the hole already there. The reason I bothered swapping is because I had 3 good (no more) 3rd gen pumps sitting around.
this is what my bracket looks like and why I needed to add that hole so I could use the boss..
Why do you hate to post that? (I hate the idea of replacing the steering box, no idea how much work it is)
Because you've put so much work into swapping pumps, but the issue just may be the steering box.
Bad in what way? like what could cause it to kill pumps _that fast_ with no symptoms and still seem to work fine?
The box isn't killing pumps, the box has a bad seal someplace.
The only issue I've ever had with the pumps is leaking seals. Which doesn't affect the pumps ability to produce pressure. That is until all the fluid leaks out. Usually the front shaft seal, but also the case o-ring leaking.
There really isn't much to the pump. OTOH, the steering box is rather complicated.
So you still have the fluid it doesn't lose it? Just the pump just quits making pressure?
Has to be valve in the box, not opening completely or closing, and causing the pump to run at high over pressure and blowing the internal seals. Box is easier to replace than what you have been doing with pumps. Might consider going to a Vega manual box since you have to. I can't see the hole you drilled killing the pumps.
Because you've put so much work into swapping pumps, but the issue just may be the steering box.
The box isn't killing pumps, the box has a bad seal someplace.
The only issue I've ever had with the pumps is leaking seals. Which doesn't affect the pumps ability to produce pressure. That is until all the fluid leaks out. Usually the front shaft seal, but also the case o-ring leaking.
There really isn't much to the pump. OTOH, the steering box is rather complicated.
Huh, How do I confirm that, and why does swapping pumps fix it for a few miles. Are you suggesting that I can replace the box with the existing pump and it would be OK?
I've always felt that they were pretty much indestructible and never thought about them much, so this threw me for a major loop. I've only replaced one before in, oh, 20 or 30 years of tinkering with cars (as a kid with my dad) and that was because of a leaking seal.
Originally Posted by mmadden55
So you still have the fluid it doesn't lose it? Just the pump just quits making pressure?
Yes, as far as I can tell... no fluid leaking, but if I pull the return and let it run I don't get anything coming out besides a few drops unless I crank the wheel, and if I crank the wheel I only get what I would get if I didn't even have the pump turning.
Has to be valve in the box, not opening completely or closing, and causing the pump to run at high over pressure and blowing the internal seals.
Shouldn't the relief be opening, like when you hit the box stops? Like I mentioned, when it stops working that doesn't happen when I crank the wheel all the way over either.
Box is easier to replace than what you have been doing with pumps. Might consider going to a Vega manual box since you have to. I can't see the hole you drilled killing the pumps.
Yea, I can't see the hole doing anything either, it just goes into a blind threaded boss in the pump body.
I've considered going with a manual box, but this is honestly a street car that has gotten autoxed a 1-2 times a year consistently... that would be a no go for that.
I've expected that replacing the box to be a real PITA, but I've never done one. I know that if I grab one from my "parts car" I end up with a major headache trying to move that when I need to, and doing it in the driveway sounds like no fun.
I would get one from pick and pull or a rebuilt one. But it has to be the box can't really be anything else, unless you had 3 bad pumps , but that doesn't follow if they were working at first. There is a you tube video of a guy rebuilding a saginaw pump, it doesn't look to difficult.
Also if you can manually steer with the box, you can swap it for the one you take out of your parts car so you can move it.
I will agree with it being the box. The older style Signaw pumps actually run too high a pressure as is. The newer units run at lower pressures. It sounds to me you have restrictions somewhere in the plumbling (box included in that plumbing) that is building the pressure way too high. It is the only thing that will kill the pumps.
...but if I pull the return and let it run I don't get anything coming out besides a few drops unless I crank the wheel, and if I crank the wheel I only get what I would get if I didn't even have the pump turning...
Hmmm, try another high pressure line that runs between the pump & steering box. Maybe it is plugged up.
In all this playing musical chairs with pumps I've tried 2 high pressure lines and 2 return lines.
After looking up what is inside one of these pumps I tend to agree with you guys, I have a hard time believing that the answer that I've been getting till now (debris or air bubbles in the system is killing the pumps), I don't see how any debris that are any reasonable size would hurt one of these things. I plan on taking one of the "dead" ones apart in a little bit and see what's going on in them.
now if I take one apart and don't see anything (as far as I can tell a rebuild is basically replacing a few o-rings and a seal, and I don't believe that I'm getting a catastrophic failure in hard parts since I'm not getting any trash from that kind of thing) and it is the steering gear, Why the heck does it work for like 3-10 miles when I swap the pump?
Autopsy of the "dead" pump, I believe that this is the second pump that was in there (out of an '83 TA, I believe that this one is factory original with ~150K miles on it).
I see a little bit of wear from its age, no trash (what you see in the pics are artifacts from the flash and dust from me disassembling), the o-rings are all in place, nothing was leaking all the veins are free...
So what made this stop working after a few miles???
If it's not the pumps failing what is working for a few miles and then quitting? If it's something in the gear then it should be something I can reproduce without sticking a new pump in it, how do I do that to confirm?
The only thing I can see causing this problem in the box would be a sticking check valve
I think the culprit is the pumps. Maybe everything looks good but perhaps the seals are slightly too loose. The pumps may have been working before, but they are old.
I have had many problems with rebuilt Saginaw type pumps in my jeeps. They work great until the weather gets hot, then start to squeak and loose boost. I think they just aren't rebuilt very well, maybe poor seal quality or assembly tolerances. Mostly made in Mexico.
I get a new one under warranty and the same progression happens. This is on jeeps that have had every other steering component replaced or rebuilt by me. I've also heard this being a problem on other American rigs. Never had a problem with this on foreign cars, but their pumps are more expensive. When I bought a NOS jeep pump, no more problem.
The only thing I can see causing this problem in the box would be a sticking check valve
I think the culprit is the pumps. Maybe everything looks good but perhaps the seals are slightly too loose. The pumps may have been working before, but they are old.
I have had many problems with rebuilt Saginaw type pumps in my jeeps. They work great until the weather gets hot, then start to squeak and loose boost. I think they just aren't rebuilt very well, maybe poor seal quality or assembly tolerances. Mostly made in Mexico.
I get a new one under warranty and the same progression happens. This is on jeeps that have had every other steering component replaced or rebuilt by me. I've also heard this being a problem on other American rigs. Never had a problem with this on foreign cars, but their pumps are more expensive. When I bought a NOS jeep pump, no more problem.
For a pump to fail, it either wears out or it blows the seals and looses pressure. Something is restricting the flow in his system. Not the pump.
Well, I can't seem to explain why it works for a little bit if I stick a new pump on it and then quits (and doesn't come back till I put a new pump on it)
That said, I pulled the pressure hose and started it and it dumped all the fluid in
Well, I can't seem to explain why it works for a little bit if I stick a new pump on it and then quits (and doesn't come back till I put a new pump on it)
That said, I pulled the pressure hose and started it and it dumped all the fluid in less than 2 seconds, and the ones that I pulled apart look fine inside, so I decided to try swapping the gear.
Now I can't seem to find a 2.25 turn lock to lock box:
I know that the typical parts store rebuild isn't going to be a great piece, but i need to get this thing running and I can't seem to find anyone that has the right one in stock.
Those steering gears when going bad, act goofy and do weird stuff. I have rebuilt several and still opt to get a new one over rebuild. If the ***** dont recycle properly, or something else is wrong, it can jump around and your steering will/can change the feel of the drive. It can sometimes be quite dramatic.
Try, (with the front jacked up) have someone hug/feel the wheel/tire as someone turns the steering wheel. What does the wheel/tire do? How does it feel? It should be nice and smooth obviously.
Are you taking the veins out of the pumps when you took em apart? They have to go back in the same way they came out.
I dont know what else it could be. Too bad you dont have an extra steering gear laying around.
I sort of have an extra gear (in my formula 350 parts car), but the thing is coverd and grease and grunge, I figure it has to be leaking somewhere. Not sure I feel like figuring out how to rebuild it (honestly, _I really_ don't feel like trying to get it out the way the formula is sitting).
THIS MAKES NO F'ING SENSE!!! YES, I'M _STILL_ TRYING TO GET THE POWER STEERING TO WORK!!! >:-(
Short version, swapped in a new steering gear. Doesn't work. I didn't even get the 3 or so miles of power steering like I got after swapping each pump, LIKE NOTHING. I was pretty sure I didn't have assist when I had it in the air to purge the air out of the system, and didn't when I dropped it to the ground and backed down the driveway. NONE
Longer version:
So I've had enough people say something like "there is no way you had 3 bad pumps, the steering gear is doing something funky" and it doesn't help that I took one of the "bad" pumps apart and couldn't find anything wrong with it, and tested another on the car and disconnected from the gear, with the pressure side hose connected it dumped the full load of fluid in about 2 seconds, it's pumping.
So after checking a few of them, I found that _none_ of the rebuilt steering gears _actually_ match ratio to the one I pulled out of the TA, but I _needed_ to get this thing running. I gave in and just swapped the best one I could find in (Cardone 27-6550, it was the only one that externally matched the one that I pulled out but same ratio as in the test video I shot. Note: all the brands of rebuilds that I've found are actually the same damned rebuild, same box, same rebuild sticker... just different PN's and names they're sold under, and they're ALL JUNK. This one was the best one I found and the input splines were munged (I spent like 2 hours cleaning them up enough to get the steering shaft to engage) and the nylon insert on the locking nut for the preload screw was torn out).
I put the pump that I tested on the car back in, I don't know which pressure side hose I used, I have 2 that I've tried (original one from this car and the original one from a parts car), interestingly I haven't been able to buy a correct pressure side hose, no one stocks them locally, I put the return side hose in that I put the Cardone inline filter in. Vacuum bled it, put it up on a jack and cranked side to side and at that point I knew I didn't have assist (the driver's side tire would just touch the ramp turned all the way to the left and it got very heavy there). Just to make sure I wasn't wrong I put it on the ground and drove it. Nope, zilch, zero, nada...
So 3 pumps, 2 hoses, 2 gears, something along the lines of $70 worth of fluid (between flushing and just dumping it out every time I replace a part), $20 inline filter for all the people that were telling me that I have contaminants in the system killing pumps and I have nothing to show for it.
I'm not even sure what to try next, this seems impossible.
Dont mean to beat a dead horse, I dont understand how you can/are having such a hard time with this. Pretty easy set up. I have never had such issues before in my life with anything. (maybe an x)
Have you replaced the hoses or inspected them thoroughly? Maybe one of them came apart inside and is blocking the fluid. Just like how our brake lines do up front. Other than that, sounds like you have covered everything.
Dont take this the wrong way, you seem like you know what you are doing. Do you feel confident in your work? I know there are a lot of ppl here who work on their own stuff, and there are ppl here who think they know how... Cause, I dont know what else it could be... This is not some vats or bcm or some sneaky electrical issue. This is a fairly simple contraption that should be fairly easy to diagnose.
Dont mean to beat a dead horse, I dont understand how you can/are having such a hard time with this. Pretty easy set up. I have never had such issues before in my life with anything. (maybe an x)
I am totally with you on this, I couldn't come up with a good explanation for it being the gear (mostly because it would work for a little bit after swapping pumps), but swapped it because the system is a pump, 2 hoses and a gear. That's it.
Have you replaced the hoses or inspected them thoroughly? Maybe one of them came apart inside and is blocking the fluid. Just like how our brake lines do up front. Other than that, sounds like you have covered everything
Like I said, I couldn't find anyone that had a new hose in stock. I did have 2 hoses, and now I'm wondering if I pulled the second one and put the first one back in not really paying attention, but whichever one is in there now, _really_ looks brand new after some degreasing, it's in good shape, I would be really surprised if it was damaged inside, but I'm sure it's older than it should be no matter which one it is.
I guess I could easily swap the other lines in place, I have 2 more sets of used ones (I haven't talked about the others because they're literally older and with more miles, and just plain grungy, I would have to spend a ton of time cleaning them up to consider even trying them)
I did run the pump that is on it now with the gear side of the hose disconnected just to check for output and it literally dumped all the fluid in like 2 seconds and I shut it off. So I know it's pumping and that it's not blocked at low pressures.
Dont take this the wrong way, you seem like you know what you are doing. Do you feel confident in your work? I know there are a lot of ppl here who work on their own stuff, and there are ppl here who think they know how... Cause, I dont know what else it could be... This is not some vats or bcm or some sneaky electrical issue. This is a fairly simple contraption that should be fairly easy to diagnose.
Yea, i agree, and this is why I'm loosing it over this.
If I had access to an inline pressure gauge with a valve in the line I'd be curious about trying it to see what pressure the pump is building, but the only explanation I have right now is:
- that I really did have 3 bad pumps or something in the original steering gear was causing the pumps to die in a way that they still look OK inside and still pump fluid but maybe don't build pressure
or
- that the gear did somehow go bad just sitting for a month while I worked on the engine and that this supposedly tested and sealed rebuilt gear that I got is really bad in a way that it feels smooth, turns well (better in both ways than my original) but gets no assist.
This is a crazy issue, nothing like I've ever seen.
If this car has the return line cooler, it may be that something is wrong with it. A restriction such as a crimp or dent and over enough time back pressure builds up. With that the steering box differential pressure drops off for no assist.
If a check of it doesn't turn up anything, bypass it and see what happens. If that doesn't fix it I'd start to look for a car that has working P/S and swap every single part in. This is nuts.
Yea, i'm not sure I have a quick answer for how to bypass it, but my game plan was to mess with the hoses next.
The formula that I stole the 3rd PS plump and spare hoses (and was ready to take the gear from but it was just too grungy) was working when I parked it..., but at this point I don't know for sure what the state of that pump is.
I still think it's the pumps. You haven't tried a new one, correct?
I don't see how it could be the box if worked at first and then lost pressure with no fluid leaks in the box. I think the seals in the pumps are more critical than people think.
Think of any other pump system. If it builds pressure , then no pressure, no leaks in the system, how could it be anything but the pump losing pressure?
If it was a restriction in the box or hoses and the pump still made pressure, would it not cause a leak somewhere, especially if these pumps "run too high a pressure"?
I know I don't have the creds of STG but I am certain the problem is the pump. Yes the rebuilt boxes from cardone are probably junk and wrong ratio so put the original one back in because you know that one worked at first, right?
As I said before, I have had rebuilt pumps go bad repeatedly, but problem fixed when I finally got a decent pump.
stealtht/a, from a logic prespective based on what it does when you put a new pump in I would agree with you, from seeing what the insides of the pumps look like (both wrt condition and how these things actually work), I have a hard time believing it.
I've pretty much decided that I'm taking it all and ripping it out and putting fresh rebuild stuff in.
Ive personally seen many vein style pumps so warn out, and literally look like they were pumping a sandy solution through the system instead of hydraulic fluid, and all the customer said was wrong was a slow system. (Lots of leakage/fluid not being pumped/leaks around veins/rotor/ring, but stays in system.)
At the same time, Ive seen pumps that looked great, only the veins were too tight and wernt kicking out, so there was little to no pressure. Really gotta wind her up.
However, usually (90%) they will pump just fine and you wont even know the condition inside. They just pump... or not..
I bet 90% or more of the time when the p/s pump is changed on a car, it's cause its seal went out and its leaking. Or a line, or something rubbed up against the reservoir and vibrated/rubbed a small hole through it. It's never the "pump" its self.
So chances are, re-manufactured pumps, when the builder gets them, they go to a test bench, and if they pump what ever gmp at what ever psi they are supposed to or are in spec, they prob just replace the seal and send it right back out. With or w/o the reservoir. I believe you can get it either way at the part store.
If this was a "Piston" style pump instead of a "Vein" style pump.....well then its a whole new ball game. Their tolerances are much tighter and cant take contamination like a vein can.
A "gear" style or "trash pump" as some pump guys call em, they can take a bunch of abuse. your gpm's will be very low but it will pump. FYI
Ive personally seen many vein style pumps so warn out, and literally look like they were pumping a sandy solution through the system instead of hydraulic fluid, and all the customer said was wrong was a slow system. (Lots of leakage/fluid not being pumped/leaks around veins/rotor/ring, but stays in system.)
At the same time, Ive seen pumps that looked great, only the veins were too tight and wernt kicking out, so there was little to no pressure. Really gotta wind her up.
However, usually (90%) they will pump just fine and you wont even know the condition inside. They just pump... or not..
I bet 90% or more of the time when the p/s pump is changed on a car, it's cause its seal went out and its leaking. Or a line, or something rubbed up against the reservoir and vibrated/rubbed a small hole through it. It's never the "pump" its self.
So chances are, re-manufactured pumps, when the builder gets them, they go to a test bench, and if they pump what ever gmp at what ever psi they are supposed to or are in spec, they prob just replace the seal and send it right back out. With or w/o the reservoir. I believe you can get it either way at the part store.
This is why this is so puzzling to me..
that is exactly why this is puzzling to me.
I decided that I've had it with this, and i have to do all the work to replace the pump when I replace the gear, and since I have no way of testing pressure and don't know if the gear that I had works, so I'm replacing all of it this time.
I ordered in replacement parts, AND everything showed up screwed up somehow (the pump showed up without seals, the gear is TOTALLY different, different input shaft and the preload adjuster on the top is a big slotted screw sticking out)
09-02-2015, 06:55 AM
