starfinder

hello,


i'm searching for new suspension parts which are necessary to change:


front ball Joints
front and rear bushings (no polys)


i found some moog parts at rockauto which i find likeable.
or do you recommend an other producer?


thanks!


andreas

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Moog is good.

Don't try to replace the rear bushings. Just replace the entire control arms. It's basically impossible to get the bushings out of the stock ones without destroying the control arms themselves, because the arms are so weak. You (or at least, I... the classic 1.85m tall 68kg weakling) can bend them, even twist them, with my own skinny scrawny hands. Without even any gloves on. Pop yours out and give it a try yourself, you'll laugh and throw them in the trash same as I did.

Your stock bushings are not poly so don't worry about that. They're just real soft limp lazy rubber. You can replace them with something good, it will be OK.

LiquidBlue

Are you referring to front control arms? Really, that weak?

86iroct5

i believe he means the rear control arms. those are really THAT weak, hes not exaggerating.

LiquidBlue

The poster seemed to be referring to front suspension work, which is why I was confirming. I can't imagine the fronts being weak, they do a lot of work. So lets assume sofaking is not referring to that.

As to the rears being weak: I wonder if GM designed them that way on purpose. Better to have a control arm bend, then have the suspension bend, or some reason along that line. Maybe there is a good reason not to install strong rear control arms ????

86iroct5

there is a significant improvement in launch quality and control as well improvement in the corners and going over bumps with upgraded rear control arms. there are no downsides to spending money on them. i think GM was just saving money.

but in the front it is a pain removing the bushings. i would recommend buying the A-arms with bushings pre installed

LiquidBlue

Is it a problem for a suspension shop with the proper tools?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Yes.

In the rear, imagine un-torquing a head bolt out of aluminum foil. Not sure there's a tool that'll fix THAT.

They ARE "the suspension". All there is else, is the panhard bar, and the torque arm. Which are just about as weeeeeeek: the panhard bar is EXACTLY as weeeeeeeeeek except worse, and the torque arm is .... weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek.

In fact the TA is limp and floppy too; when I put in a good aftermarket one (Spohn) it felt like I had taken a giant bowl of oatmeal out of the car. I couldn't believe how much it must have been flexing, just from the completely different feel the other one gave. Was probably good for acoupla tenths of 60' time all by itself, just from taking bounce and flop and flex out of the chassis.

Fronts aren't so bad. Deal there is, the same control arms fit A BUNCH of other vehicles; not sure what, but DEFINITELY something with shocks. S trucks, G/A bodies, something like that. (or all of em for all I know) All I know is, every time I ever needed any, the buzzards had STACKS of em sitting on the shelf waiting on me, for like $35 the pair. Then I'd just take em to a local tire store (Firestone store or the like) on Sat afternoon about 15 minutes before closing time, and slip the mech a 12-pack of 12-oz exercise weights or a yuppie food stamp, to swap em out.

starfinder

thanks for your informations and help so far.

about the weakness of the rear control arms:
yes i agree that GM wanted to save money but i think a certain flexibility (rotatability!) is necessary not to squeeze the bushings too much.
imagine if the rear axle stands angular to the body. if the rear control arm is made completely strong it cannot compensate the angle of the rear axle, so the bushings will be squeezed. i hope you can understand what i mean.
a suitable aftermarket rear control arm would be the version with ball joints on one end to compensate the angle of the rear axle and the squeeze of the bushings.
i don't believe that (with stock engine power) the rear control arms will bend as much to displace the rear axle. the bushings are more soft than the control arms.

what do you think about that mindset?

andreas

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

No...

Some scientific, mathematical, or engineering education, or race car building experience, would help you understand better what you are talking about.

"Believe" doesn't keep it from happening. Reality trumps "belief" every time. Pick one up with your own hands and try it.

86iroct5

no but for nearly the cost of the bushings you can get brandy new shiny black control arms to replace the crusty rusty ones you are removing with the new bushing already in there.

i would recommend you buy the new rear control arms as well or risk buying the bushing and twisting the arms trying to remove the old ones. seriously just take one of them down and just squeeze it... you will realize.

LiquidBlue

Hi Andreas,

I have read if you use a poly bushing for regular driving applications they will bind during hard cornering because they are too stiff. The OEM rubber bushing that GM installed allow for proper flex. The common cure for this is a rotational bushing on the chassis side and a poly bushing on the axle side. I have not found an aftermarket rear control arm that has rubber on chassis side and poly on axle side.

There are many engineering applications where a part is designed to break/bend under certain loads in order to preserve more expensive parts. My guess this is not one of them, or so many aftermarket parts would not be available.

If you look at some of the latest posts in this suspension section, you will find a few that I've been responding to. One of them has a great link to lots of good information on what you need to do to rebuild your suspension.

Good luck with your project. How did you get a Trans Am all the way over in Austria?

starfinder

i cannot insert a Picture. so i do it via links.


i would prefer this ones: http://www.hawksthirdgenparts.com/ca...on-mild-steel/
because they have a roto joint and a poly on the other side. two rotos would be too noisy (for me) for normal road driving.


i do not prefer this ones: http://www.hawksthirdgenparts.com/ca...poly-bushings/


because here the rotation movement is fully up to the bushings and they will be squeezed too much. I haven't used this parts and i don't know any Buddy here in Austria who uses this parts so i think it could be problematic for the bushings if the arm is too stiff for rotation.


@LiquidBlue:
i had a lot of luck to find a real V8 Trans Am in Austria. there are more V6 firebirds. but both cars are very rare at this time. my trans am came from switzerland to Austria in 1989 and it is an export model but with the original US mirrors. there were ugly european mirrors also available. so only the tail lights and the speedometer (km/h) is the difference to the US Version.


andreas

86iroct5

for what its worth, i never had a "binding" issue with both polys. i use the following

http://www.foundersperformance.com/p...trol-Arms.html

the only way the axle should be moving is vertically, not laterally. i do not see the point of roto joints unless you like noise and replacing things.

LiquidBlue

Nice find Andreas! I imagine you need a nice tight suspension for those Austrian mountain curves!

I hadn't read up on roto joints being noisy. Is this a common problem? I have read a lot that the poly bushings transmit more road nose, and other car vibrations. Sounds like it is a good idea to stay away from them in engine mounts espectially.

Here's a thread discussing the noise factor's.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...ints-rear.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/afte...to-joints.html

starfinder

the axle cannot move laterally because of the panhard bar. i'm aware of that.


the axle can move vertically yes, but rotates in a certain angle also.
that happens in curves and if one wheel is higher than the opposite one the axle has an angle to the Body. i mean this rotation.
if you took for instance a big stone under one back wheel take a look what the rear axle is doing. there is a rotation angle of the axle and the control arms...

starfinder

@LiquidBlue:


yes the polybushings and roto joints are more noisy and you will feel more vibrations. a Buddy of mine has polys all over the suspension and he's thinking about to remove them again.
unfortunately our roads in Austria are not in best conditions so a Suspension which is too hard is not comfortable here. :-(

LiquidBlue

Andreas - I think some of the roto joint issues may have to do with who makes them. Check out UMI, people seem to have good results. See the links 2 posts up.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Yes, that is true, as far as it goes.

In practical terms, it has no more effect on the operation of anything, than the twisting effect that doing the same thing you describe on a leaf spring car, would create on the leaf springs. Totally negligible. And, to the extent that any effect WAS detectable, it would be the same as the sway bar; that is, it would tend to resist different vertical deflection of the 2 sides of the axle, and thus add to the sway bar's effect. Not a "problem" regardless.

Speaking strictly as someone who threw the weeeeeek wimpy stock crap in the trash about 20 years ago and has had nice stiff rear LCAs with poly bushings for the last 15 - 20 yrs, I forget exactly how long it's been now. I think mine are the Hotchkiss ones but I could be wrong.

LiquidBlue

"The polyurethane bushings also place unnecessary high stresses on the torque boxes, which are the attachment points for the control arms to the chassis. Standard aftermarket control arms do not allow for rotation of the control arm during cornering because of the stiffness of the bushings."


http://www.hotpart.com/1982-2002-f-b...-control-arms/

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Yeah we always see that sort of thing coming from people that want to sell you something else that costs several times as much...

starfinder

The hotparts description tells exactly what i mean!

LiquidBlue

Good discussion over here on mild steel vs Chrome Moly

http://ls1tech.com/forums/gears-axle...oly-steel.html

Good discussion on lca, panhard selection:

http://ls1tech.com/forums/suspension...ear-lca-s.html

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

Rear lower control arms: I have the Spohn del-sphere (on both sides). They are slightly different, but essentially the same idea as UMI's roto-joint. These are basically a high performance spherical rod end that is wrapped in delrin. Delrin is a self lubricating material that doesn't require greasing. They don't squeak. And they absorb all the noise and vibration from the road.

Delrin makes all the difference in the world. They are an awesome material.

I'm not a fan of poly unless you have to use it. I had a poly transmission mount and the vibration drove me insane. I took it out after about 2 months and went back to rubber. The poly transmission mount offers zero performance. Their only redeeming feature is that they don't break. Rubber transmission mounts cost about $7. So if they need to be replaced every couple of years, no big deal.

The poly sway bar setup I have, made the car feel stiffer than the del-sphere lower control arms did. So this just goes to show that poly is not better than a delrin wrapped spherical design (del-sphere or roto-joint).

Poly is a tight material. There isn't much give in it. That's pretty much the whole idea behind poly is that it doesn't flex. But the delrin wrapped spherical setup has the ability to rotate when it needs to while still retaining a strong link between suspension pieces.

Front control arm bushings: I had the front rubber bushings taken out of the A-arms and replaced with Global West Del-A-Lum bushings. This is the same idea as above. A delrin wrapped aluminum bushing. The delrin is self lubricating and requires no grease. I've had these in the car for several years now. No squeaking. The car doesn't feel any worse going over bumps than it did with the stock rubber. I will admit that the 25 year old rubber that came out of the front A-arms was the stiffest most worn out rubber you can imagine. But still, the addition of the Del-A-Lum front bushings and the del-sphere rear control arms gave a better suspension feel, no worse than stock roughness, and they won't need to be lubed in the future.

I would not buy spherical rod ends for the lower control arms. I've ridden in a Camaro with this setup and you can hear it click on turn in and click again when finishing the turn. Even pressing down on the trunk lid with the car off, you can feel and hear when the rod end clicks.

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

I believe it. He probably feels the same way I did with the poly transmission mount. No fun. Lots of annoyance.

Most people think poly is softer than a roto-joint setup. But it just isn't true. You'll never find anybody saying they regret buying a roto-joint setup. But you'll always find people who don't like poly.

Mild steel vs chrome moly......I went with mild steel. The weight savings with chrome moly is tiny. Using lower control arms as an example, mild steel weigh 10 lbs. Chrome moly weigh 9 lbs. I wouldn't spend the extra money to save a pound. Now if I had stripped the interior, taken out the radio, gotten rid of the spare tire, then maybe I would think about getting chrome moly. But for 99% of us, mild steel works just fine.

LiquidBlue

Reid - thanks for pointing this out. I didn't notice there was a difference and was thinking they were the same thing until I read your post. Still a little confused on exactly what a spherical rod end is? Is it metal on metal without a Teflon race to quiet the pivoting movement?


On the Global West Del-A-Lum bushings for your A-Arms. Is installation different from a regular bushing? I see Global West has some utube videos explaining how to do it properly, but not specific to a 3rd gen F-Body.

Is the part you are referring to?
http://www.globalwest.net/camaro-del...2-global-.html

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

^^^ That is the part I used.

The Del-A-Lum need to be pressed in. Since I don't have a press. I just dropped the car off at the shop and had them press them into the A-arms.

For the rear lower control arms, it's just unbolting the factory arms and installing the new arms.

You are correct in terms of rod end vs del-sphere. The rod end is metal on metal. No cushioning. There should be video links below to show you how each are put together.

http://www.spohn.net/shop/1982-1992-...ot-Joints.html

http://www.spohn.net/shop/1982-1992-...-Rod-Ends.html

LiquidBlue

Thanks Reid - The Del-A-Lum utube video was showing some prep work before pressing the bushing in, grinding the a-arm where the bushing makes contact. Wasn't sure if this was required for our cars, or if any suspension shop would be able to handle the install, or if you need to make sure to bring it to someone who has experience with these types of bushings.