NiG

Hi guys,

this happened to me yesterday. I was leaving the gas station, super low speed (3/4mph?). Suddenly a huge sound, kinda small explosion from the front. I thought I hit a low wall with the car's bumper. I stopped, went out and saw this:



The nut went away ("popped out"), and the ball joint slipped out from the hub while turning at low speed
The right front side collapsed over the tired, and the car was "immovable":



WTF !!!
My mechanic is a great expert guy. He just put all brand new ball joints and bushings three months ago. High price stuff I bought from ACDelco. Apparently, he forgot to put the cotted pin to lock firm the nut.

I mean, what am I supposed to think? Is the mechanic a retarded?

What could have happened if I was running, maybe at high speed???

I DONT KNOW WHAT TO THINK

peterc005

That's why threads need to be rolled rather than cut.

I've seen a few Ford ball joints fall apart at low speed and tight turning angles.

MoJoe

iTrader: (5)

Forgot to install cotter pin could do it. Are the threads ripped off? Are the nut thread ripped out? Or did the nut unwind itself?

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

That was my first thought!

Galaxie500XL

iTrader: (1)

You might want to check the other side, and make sure he installed a cotter pin there. I'm assuming both were done at the same time, and if he missed one, he may have missed the other as well.

gt4373

Yep Looks Like He Forgot The Cotter Pin,Also The Sway Bar End Link Bolts Should Be Installed Threads Up.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

IF there was a cotter pin in there and the nut sheared then the remainder of the cotter pin should be in the stud hole.

Bob88GTA

iTrader: (2)

That's freaking scary! Just think what COULD of happened. I'd be having a talk with this "so called mechanic!"

That's messed up.

Restrorob

iTrader: (7)

Shows he's NO "great expert guy"......

Back when I was ASE in brakes-n-front end you always double checked everything before call'n a job done, you need to find someone else to wrench on your car.....

Ghettobird52

Wow!! That is friggn scary! I just replaced my whole steering linkage couple months back, I'm going to go make sure everything is locked down and cotter pinned!!!!!

-=Z28=-

iTrader: (3)

There is NO way that nut got torn off.... The cotter pin has only ONE purpose. To stop the nut from backing off like it did here. It would take well over 100,000 pounds to tear that nut off. One 1/4 inch bolt can lift over 25,000 pounds. I would check everything your mechanic worked on. **** happens so I wouldnt be too upset with him. And threads on ball joints are rolled... Just about every nut and bolt made by a factory is rolled. Your average joe is who has a cutting style tap and die set..

NiG

Thanks guys!

Well, the other ball joint surely misses the cotter pin too. We didn't check yet but it's obvious. We temporary fixed it and drove the car to workshop. Next week we will recheck everything, and I'll tenaciously ask the cotter pins to be installed and checked.

Question: are there other parts (relative to front-end) that need the cotter pins?

Yeah, maybe this guy is ok with modern european cars, but not with USA classic muscle/pony cars Anyway, he didn't mention this, and assured me the job was ok. So I'm quite pissed of. Fortunately nothing went wrong (I could have destroyed the car or myself), so what could I ask him in order to be compensated?

After that fact, I asked myself the very same question: why did they attached 90% of the wheel force to the chassis by a single rod/nut (the ball joint screw)?

You've talked about the longitudinal force needed to break the (ball joint's) nut, which is ok. But about about the lateral force?

Bob88GTA

iTrader: (2)

YEAH...THE NUTS THAT HOLD THE FRONT ROTORS ON TO MENTION 2 MORE!!!!

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Wow, have seen this once from the factory on a delta 88.
As said above the swaybar endlink bolts are upside down.
Anyway, I'd call it "mechanic failure", better find a new mechanic.

Restrorob

iTrader: (7)

Maybe NOT, they use cotter pins as well.....

Scorpner

iTrader: (4)

All cotter pin nuts (also called slotted, or castle nuts) will have recesses for the cotter pin. They're called castle nuts because they look like the top of castle tower.

IMO, tenaciously asking doesn't make it happen, it's time to take the responsibility to learn and check these things yourself. Always second guess this guy if you keep going back there.

This may help. From your description it looks like MOOG recommends replacing both ball joints.
http://www.moogproblemsolver.com/_pd...K11_101_En.pdf

novaderrik

a lot of newer cars (like, 90's and newer) don't use cotter pins in anything. they use lock nuts that are supposed to be replaced after one use. i don't think there is a single cotter pin in the whole front suspension of my 95 Neon, and i know for a fact that the '00 Bonneville that i put new outer tie rods in a few months back didn't have any..

if this "expert mechanic" only has any experience with newer stuff, then he might not have known what those goofy little pieces of bent wire that came with the new parts were for and just left them out, or maybe figured that the torque on the nuts was enough to keep it together- or maybe installed everything loose, got distracted by an NCIS marathon on the USA Network while taking his lunch break, and forgot to go thru and tighten everything up before throwing the wheels back on..

NiG

it's strange. Actually the castle nuts are an old method, but he knows it anyway. That's why I cant realize how he could fall in this huge and dangerous mistake. I'll ask next week.

thanks for that doc man I'll print it.


----------

Is it ever happened that a ball joint stud broke even if correctly installed???

thanks!!

NiG

Is it dangerous? Can it cause loss of performance? Higher noise from the front?

Finally, should I ask to fix so reverse it?

THANKS

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

OK, seriously, I don't know what makes you think that this guy has a clue, but wow, there is NO WAY IN HELL that I would go back to him for work on my car. I would go back to bitch him out and try to get a refund for the money you've spent on his incompetent work, maybe, maybe to tell him he can pay to have a competent mechanic go through and check everything he's done and fix what's wrong. But NO WAY would I let him near my car holding a wrench.

From the pic it looks like you're also missing the cotter pin in the castellated nut on the outer tie rod end, and I'm guessing that you're missing them all in the front steering linkage. That nut looks loose also. Like other's have stated the end link bolt is installed upside down (will cause them to hang up on things and will destroy the threads so you won't be able to remove them later), and looks like the ball joint was installed without a ball joint boot or grease (I would suspect anything else he installed to be dry also, if you've driven it around much like that you may have worn all that out, and if not you've likely severely shortened the life of the parts).

Honestly, if he's failed at such simple things, I would be terrified of what he's done with more difficult work, if he's done other work.

Yes, some newer stuff uses sealed joints and assorted other means of locking nuts, but that's not everything, and virtually all older stuff is done like this including things like Fiats, Alphas... (I noticed you're in Italy)

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Not a huge issue but my OCD kicks in now and then..

FirebirdUSX

Wow dude change the mechanic....you can die from that type of stuffs.Its not normal when the wheels literally fell off and yes most mechanics in Europe are brain dead around american cars.Also all cars on earth have cotter pins...even Tesla.

NiG

omg guys, I'm not only sad, but also pretty shaken and scared right now


sadly reasonable



Do you mean the magenta circle? I didn't even know that piece is supposed to have a cotter pin. BTW, I'm not a mechanic :/

In what way does it look loose? Some months ago we tested the steering system (because I put a brand new gearbox), and the linkage seemed to have ZERO play. As soon as you turned a wheel with hands, the other followed instantly.

do you mean the blue circle ( brand new ball joint) or the green circle (brand new sway bar bushings)? This stuff I bought from rockauto.com in the highest price available, and asked this mechanic to install. Happened three months ago.

Well, he put the grease, I was with him. He put it in every place needed, and asked me to drive the car some time and then come back to do another grease-check. Perhaps, maybe, he could have put more. I don't know.

He did other jobs on the GTA, like removing the torque arm, k-member, all the suspensions (arms and linkages), rear/front sway bar bushings and put a new torque arm bushing, plus all the filters and new spark plugs. Car seemed ok. The only think I noticed is that after having put new ball/bushings, the car became more noisy. Pretty strange, since I bought brand new stuff also to lower the noise.

Yeah I'm in Italy. However, this guy owns old cars, from 70s and 80s. European cars anyway. I personally resist the idea he didn't know the copper pins. IMPOSSIBLE. Even the dumber mechanic gotta know cotter pints. It has to be a huge mistake of him. Dangerous and very big mistake. I'll ask in the next days.

That's damn correct. I can't explain what happened... as I've already said, even the most stupid mechanic knows what cotter pins are. Expecially if you're working on the a-arm linkage, which is safety crucial



THANK YOU!!!!

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

my 92 z28 came from GM with out any cotter pins (no holes for them in the drag link).
cant remember but I think it had lock nuts. had the parts zink plated as with replacement parts for the car...but all the new parts have the holes for the pins.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Well, yeah.

The Moog ball joints (same as third gen) in my daily driver were installed by me, have over 70,000 miles, and zero problems. I used the cotter pins.

SuperPontiac

That is proper scary.

gt4373

do you mean the blue circle ( brand new ball joint) or the green circle (brand new sway bar bushings)? This stuff I bought from rockauto.com in the highest price available, and asked this mechanic to install. Happened three months ago.

End Link Bolts Should Be Installed Threads Up.

NiG

ok, I see. THANKS!!