xjcamaro89

Ok, i worked with the VE tables a little but not much, just my lower RPM settings, and it took a little of the up and down idle away compared to just the stock chip i burned earlier. Also Im not really sure what Im looking for or what really needs done, so i didnt go to far, plus i looked at a few other things to see if i could do anything about the slugish throttle response off idle. Sometimes the throttle response is so sluggish that it will backfire, but that might be all to come, and i shouldnt worry about it now and concentrate on what we are taking care of now, thanks for your help everyone and im chomping at the bit to learn more and get my car running right, thanks.

PS: THe bin I posted for the TBIchips, chip was not an april fools joke , that came straight out of my car and posted, thanks again!

BronYrAur

iTrader: (1)

That .bin looks like it was corrupted or something. There's no way that's the actual calibration he'd put on a chip. A lot of things look fine and Some of the tables look ok except for portions that suddenly dip to 0 or a negative number.

Take a look at the WOT AFR table, it goes to 0 at 2400 RPM up! I'd say either somehow you got a bad chip from him, or when you did a read on the chip and saved it to file it got corrupted. I think the latter is much more probable. I've seen .bins get messed up when being read from a chip to file.

Also, all the Min Max settings are back asswards. The Min is always higher than the Max in every constant I've looked at.

xjcamaro89

OK, i was just checking

BMmonteSS

Rbob informed me that the bin file got corrupted when the .txt file extention was added on. For some reason the bin I posted didn't do this, and yours did, might just be your computer. If you would E-mail me the bin and I'll repost it.

xjcamaro89

Hey BMmonte i just shot you a email with the bin, and test bin that i played with, maybe to work out any posting problems, i will just email you any .bins that I need to post and you could put them up, so we arent fooling around with this posting stuff.

techno101

well all this info is way over my head, but I'm trying get the hang of datalogging first. I downloaded and registered TunerPro RT and all the .ads files for connecting the ECM are for TPI engines. I downloaded a .bin and an .xdf files that were posted above. I opened these on Tunerpro and could see a long list of options in three windows on the left. Can I now connect to my ECM and record a session?

BronYrAur

iTrader: (1)

Go http://www.moates.net/fileman/index....%20Definitions and download the .ads file for the 1228746 61 mask. That is what you'd have to load up as the .ads file to datalog ur computer. I find WinALDL much easier to use, I would look into that if I were you, just my opinion though.

xjcamaro89

you need the program winaldl for datalogging, and a aldl cable there are links to both here: WINALDL

TunerPro is the program used to adjust the .bin files to then put burn to a chip

techno101

thanks guys! I have the cable and serial converter. I downloaded an .ads today so hopefully I can conect to the ecm today.

xjcamaro89

Ok ive been doing alot of reading, especially about VE tables. is the VE #2 table more of an adder table that right now i dont really have to worry about? Should I just be making changes to the #1 table, and should I just be smoothing out the table a little. ( I know bmmonte said he was going to post info on subject but ive been like a book worm trying to figure it out) And what exactly does the VE tables do, what exactly do they reference and what do they change as far as the car running? Thanks Again!

BMmonteSS

( I know bmmonte said he was going to post info on subject but ive been like a book worm trying to figure it out)

HA,HA took a hit off the old crack pipe did we? This is the exactly the type of thinking this thread is supposed to entice. I’m just trying to set the hook and then once your up and running you should be able to read/research your way deeper into the depths of DIY tuning.

I took a look at the TBIchips.com bin file, and thank god it isn’t as bad as I thought. Quite frankly there is very little done, which is smart on Brian’s part in that he’s not going to blow up anyone’s car with this chip. He disabled vats, egr, and the speed limiter. Added 5 deg of timing at WOT only (total of 24 deg) and richened up the WOT mixture (way too far in my opinion). The usual crap that hypertech does. The VE and spark tables are IDENTICAL to the anlu bin file. Actually he started with the anlu if you look at the prom ID number they match. He did the usual quickie changes that you should do before even starting with a chip. This chip is in no way customized for XJ’s combo, was this an off the shelf chip? Or was it supposed to be customized for your combo?

I’m not sure why the bin that XJ posted got corrupted and the ones I’ve posted work fine. From now on I’m going to be posting the bins and XJ will e-mail them to me.

If you take a look at XJ’s BLM tables you’ll see he’s way lean down low about right at 2400 rpm and a rich above that. His VE table is as much as 15% off from a big throttle body, imagine what full exhaust or a cam would do to your tune. Luckily GM built in a lot of self learning into these ECM’s, which is the whole BLM routine we’re looking at now. This is why the car runs like dodo until it warms up and the BLM’s take over, also keep in mind that the BLM’s are ignored at WOT as well. SO you see how you can drive a bad tune, but it causes all kinds of other problems along the way.

xjcamaro89

The tbi chips.com chip wasnt exactly custom for me, i gave him all the information that i gave Bmmonte when we started this project, that is it. So any way , is the lean factor down low the reason for my up and down idle when the car is cold, and the delayed throttle response off idle. ie: when im sitting in the garage at idle in neutral and i punch the gas to rev it up, it almost pukes before it catchs up and revs up, or it will pop back up through and i let off. So what do we need to change, and why? Thanks again!

BMmonteSS

Ok now that we have a base .bin file made up and a good data log to go off of we’re ready to start tuning seriously. First a little back ground so it all make sense.

BLM: (Block Learn Memory) This is the routine that the ECM uses to adjust the fuel mixture while running. This table is erased every time the car is shut off so your running on your VE tables only until the O2 sensor warms up and you enter closed loop (mode where the ECM looks at all the sensors) Think of this as the long term or average fuel correction. Lower than 128 is rich and higher than 128 is lean, this is on a scale of 256. There is a maximum and minimum BLM value to keep the ECM from adjusting itself too far in the event that the O2 sensor goes out for lunch.

INT: (integrator) this is much like BLM except this is a short term fuel adjustment. This will bounce around quite quickly as the ECM rushes to keep the mixture at 14.7 to 1. I don’t pay much attention to the INT, just think of it as an indicator of which way your BLM is heading. If you have a BLM of 130 and your INT is 150 then the BLM is going to go leaner, if the INT reads 128 then what ever BLM you have will most likely stay where it’s at.

VE: (Volumetric Efficency) This table is the theoretical volumetric efficency of your engine. So at 50 map and 2000 RPM your engine is theoretically going to enhale 60% of the air that could physically fit into the cylinder (random numbers). From this your ECM calculates how much fuel to add in order to obtain a particular AFR. So if we lower the VE you’re going to lean the engine under those conditions and vise versa for raising it. The ECM will cap the table at 100% even though you can input values higher than this. If you max out your VE table then you need to readjust your BPC and start over on your VE table. (Just scale both in equal numbers) TBI is unique in that there are 2 VE tables. VE 1 is a 3d table and VE 2 is a 2d table. VE 2 is added to VE 1 in order to come up with your actual VE. This is done this way to save space on the chip. It’s a bit confusing until you get the hang of it. I like to “flat line” (say 30%) the VE2 table until 3200 rpm and add those values into VE1 so that what you see is what you get. Then you can continue on in VE 2 to shape your upper RPM fuel curve. Keep in mind that the last value in VE1 is added to VE2 to make your actual VE table above 3200. So if you were at 50 map and 6000 rpm, you would take the 50 map value at 3200 rpm and add the 6000 rpm % together to get your actual VE amount. We’re not going to zero out the VE2 because we need to let the VE drop at higher RPM if we zero’d it out then we wouldn’t be able to do this (this is hard to visualize, just trust me) Keep in mind that max VE is at torque peak, not at peak HP like you would think. Your VE will taper off after peak torque.

I’ve attached a modified .bin with the VE tables shifted so that they are easier to read. XJ1-VE.bin is just the shifted VE tables, every .bin from here on out will use this shifted VE table.

Ok now that we have the knowledge lets change some tables. We know from looking at the Wide BLM table that we are lean down low. This will cause all kinds of drivability problems. Even though the BLM routine is correcting for this, our pump shot is based off of the VE table so that’s why you’re having the crappy throttle response and ocilating idle when cold.

We can go in and hand change every entry in our VE table by just looking at the BLM table and guessing, but that’s time consuming and messy. I like to take the Wide Avg. BLM table that winaldl gives us and copy it to excel then I’ll copy my VE table. If you divide your BLM by 128 you’ll get a correction factor, just multiply the correction factor for each individual cell. Plug your new VE table back into tunerpro and you’re ready to go again. I also like to make educated guesses on the cells that we didn’t get any data from or cells where the BLM looks way out of place (like a 128 that is samwhiched between 145’s). You can do this by hand but I like to use excel to crunch the data for me. I’ve attached some tables of how I modified the VE table. I have also developed a handy dandy excel spreadsheet that will allow you to just plug in your tables and automatically spit out a new VE table with graphs to show you the changes and your combined VE table. Pretty handy and I’ll e-mail it to who ever would like it.

BMmonteSS

Having problems posting bin files.....PM'ing mods

xjcamaro89

If you could BMmonte in the mean time could you email me the .bins, thanks and ill take a look at them, and also that excel sheet you were talking about, and Im starting to get a grasp on things now, on what to look for and then what to change, thanks!

xjcamaro89

BMmonte, what is the difference between the xj2.bin and the xj1 ve.bin?

BMmonteSS

The VE bin is the stock VE table that has been "leveled out" so that VE2 is a flat 30% up to 3200 RPM. XJ2.bin is the new bin with corrected VE tables based on your BLM data.

91RockS

BMmonte - great thread. For some reason I didn't see this thread until just now. Excellent. I'll start chiming in with my recent experiences since I'm 6 months into the tuning scence and can hopfully help out with what I've learned so far and also get answers to things I'm having trouble with.

Could you PM me your XJ1 and XJ2 bins. Let me know if you need my email address. I'd like to see how you've flatlined the VE2 below 3200. Right now both my VE1 and VE2 have a "bell" shape, but I tend to use VE1 only for low speed tuning and VE2 for higher speeds. What has really helped me is an Excel file I created that adds the VE's together and graphs the total. It really helps visualize Total VE and identify areas where total VE is approaching 100%. It also takes a datalog file (I use the "wide avg") and creates a new VE1 table based on the datalog. I usually go back to smooth things out a bit since the generated table can be a little choppy.

Also, I'd be interested in looking at the uncorrupted TBIChips bin. Could you PM that to me as well. Just curious to see what some of his tables look like.

xjcamaro89

Anyone can chime in on this one. Do i really need to adjust anything under the hood when trying a new chip, or do i just "plug and play" ? Thanks!

BMmonteSS

Nothing needs done under the hood unless you want to clear a trouble code, or adjust your manual throttle stop. Lets get your VE curves close and see what your idle does, I have a feeling we'll need to back it off a bit. After a couple passes on the BLM's we'll play with the idle, timing and possibly some WOT stuff.

xjcamaro89

I would also like to say that i think this thread is going to be really good for those wanting to get into shipping, i see that it already has over 800 views in less than a week! I hope that this helps to answer alot of people questions. Because even though there is alot about DIY prom on this board i dont think there is alot about step by step of what to do and why, thanks guys!

xjcamaro89

Ok, i ran the XJ2 bin and wow did that open up some potential in the engine! It was doing stuff that ive never even been able to push the car to do without it feeling like it was going to shake apart into a million peices, i was pushin it up to 4000 RPM and I hit 100+ MPH (per WINALDL's dash) easily! i dont think i ever hit 100 before. It ran great! Still some lagging throttle response off idle, and i couldnt tell you if it fixed the up and down idle when cold, because rain was threatening and i wanted to get a logged run in. BUt after it was warm it idled great. Also when i gave it a couple short pumps while letting out the clutch to get going, it about died then kicked back up and went. So ill attach the logs and im going to study the tables and stuff tonight so i can start figuring some stuff out. So BMmonte take a look and see what you think.

xjcamaro89

Here are the rest of the files:

krisb410

iTrader: (9)

My alternator took a dump this weekend So anyways there goes my burning stuff till another check. I'm up a running again but my voltmeter shows low still. Can I data log or should I wait untill the battery is fully charge.(I hope I didn't kill my redtop) It took a dump on the highway, i just made it off the ramp and drifted into a gas station.

BMmonteSS

Good news, we're making progress. The scary part is your only 10% of the way there I like to get my BLM's plus or minus 5 to get started, once we start playing with timing your BLM's will shift a bit and require some more attention. When you do your final pass we'll shoot for plus or minus 2 or 3.

You do realize your only running between 18 and 20 deg of timing, and these motors like between 28 and 30........thats some major power to be had. I don't want to get too gun hoe with timing untill we get the fuel on the safe side.

The plan now is to do another pass or two on the VE table, then we'll see about getting the idle and off idle stuff smoothed out a bit. Then we'll see about doing some WOT passes to see if our fuel is in the ball park. We'll be hampered without a wide band O2 sensor, but hot roders have been tuning without them for years.

XJ, see if you can figure out my BLM correction excel file and give it a try. If you have problems PM me and we'll work it out. I'll post up your next bin once you get it done, we'll call it XJ3.

I'll get to work on an idle and pump shot section.

BMmonteSS

I’m a 747 guy, so idle stuff is a little different than what I’m used to. With the 747 there are more IAC based parameters that control the idle. With the 746 there are timing bases parameters that control the idle. For XJ’s mild combo we shouldn’t have to do much. What I would do is just start the car up and get it warmed up. Fire up winaldl and watch your blm’s at idle, try to get these as close as possible. We should already have them in the ballpark from our first couple of passes. Once we know our fuel is in the ballpark we’ll take a look at our IAC counts and our RPM. There is a “target idle rpm” constant that we can adjust the idle with. Ours is set to 550, which is low but perfectly doable on a stock motor. If we are above this and our IAC counts are 0 then we’ll need to physically close the throttle blades a bit until we get 5-10 IAC counts at idle you can do this by adjusting the throttle stop on the TB. Since this is a manual tranny we won’t have to worry about how many counts we have in gear. With an auto I shoot for 2 or 3 counts out of gear and how ever many it takes in gear. With my cammed up 350 it took 10 to 15 to get it to idle well and still have close to 0 out of gear.

Once we get the idle under control of the IAC valve, we can try tweaking the timing tables a bit at idle to see if we can reduce the IAC counts. This will indicate that the motor is idling better. We’re currently at 15 deg, I’m going to guestimate that 20 deg is going to be better. I admittedly haven’t had to mess with idle stuff on a near stock vehicle before so I’m not 100% sure what a good target would be. Any one care to chime in? Once we get the IAC counts lowered, we may have to close the throttle blades some more. This is all in the name of getting more air to go through the throttle blades and less through the IAC valve, we want to do this to help better atomize the fuel that is getting blown into the TB. This is more important with a big TB and a cammed up motor because the air is traveling slower through the TB so it’s harder to keep in atomized.

If we had a meaner setup we might need to fool around with some of the more advanced idle settings and possibly go open loop (no ECM fueling corrections) at idle to get it to settle down and idle smoothly. We won’t have problems of that nature here. Something else to consider is that we’re dealing with a manual tranny here, which means we are going to be loading up the motor at a relatively high load at low rpm when we first take off. This area of your fuel tables and your timing tables are going to be very important in making the motor run smoothly.

Another important part of your off idle throttle response is your AE (acceleration enrichment) also known as “pump shot” in the carb world. This gives the motor a little extra (or a big extra) shot of fuel when you open up the throttle. We have 3 tables to mess with here the first and the one we’ll leave alone for now is the “PW multiplier Vs. Engine Temp” if you notice you get a lean pop or rich bog when the motor is cold but not when it’s warm then you’ll need to mess with this. We’ll be messing with the “ pump shot vs. TPS” table. The hitch here is that the 746 table is pretty useless. The change in TPS value also called the delta TPS value is calculated over a 12 ms period…..which isn’t long at all. Even super man can’t get the throttle to the floor in 12 ms. The first 2 or 3 entries are all you’ll be using. So lets just increase this by a flat 10%. The table that we’ll be messing with the most is the “wall wetting Vs. MAP” this is also referred to as the “pump shot vs. Delta MAP” The wall wetting term is used here to describe what happens in a wet flow intake system. Your intake walls are covered with raw liquid fuel. When you first hit the throttle you need a burst of fuel to compensate for the added air, then once the air gets moving it will start to pull this liquid fuel off the port walls and richen the mixture. We then need to add some fuel to replace and supplement this “wall wetting” fuel. You can also think of the delta map pump shot as being the longer more lasting pump shot, while the delta TPS is more of the “first hit” of fuel. I’ll try to post a WB log of what I’m talking about. This can very easily be seen on a WB graph, since we don’t have that luxury we’ll have to just play with it till the throttle response feels good. You can get surprisingly close by feel. You can also try to watch the O2 sensor and see whether it dives rich or dives lean when you stomp the gas. You might have to do this a couple of times to actually capture this happening since the log rate is so slow. You can also tell by the type of bog lean will pop or hesitate quickly and then accelerate fast, while rich will slowly load up, then accelerate away slowly as the fuel burns off. I would go ahead and richen the whole MAP table up by 10% for now. This is where you’ll have to spend some time since this is what the big throttle body is going to change the most. I had to change my pump shot tables by as much as 50% in places. I did have a pretty cammed up motor, and a performer RPM intake that slowed air down pretty good at low engine speeds. This is where every engine is going to be different.

Recap:

Pump shot Vs. TPS: Amount of fuel that is injected based on the change in TPS.

Wall wetting Vs. MAP: (aka: Pump shot Vs. MAP) Amount of fuel injected based on change in MAP

WB: (wide band): An O2 sensor that is able to accurately read all AFR’s between 10 to 1 and 20 to 1. I mention this because to truly get your pump shot right a WB is the tool to have. Your afr’s change so drastically and quickly that a narrow band sensor (stock) won’t do you any good, and the log rate is so slow you’ll miss the whole event in the log. This is where using the log feature with whichever WB you get is helpful. The better fix is to use a WB with Rbob’s new EBL board and Ultimate TBI code. Read the 12-page post about it to learn what it can do for you. I won’t go into it here because it’s more of an intermediate tuning tool. I use a zietronix WB, I chose it for 2 reasons, one is price, the other is the fact that you can plug up to 5 sensors into it and it will log all of them and the WB at close to 80 frames a second vs. about 1 frame for our ALDL port. This will allow you to log RPM MAP and TPS at a high rate. I use this for WOT tuning and pump shot and use winALDL for part throttle, idle and other slow stuff. For beginners we can get in the ballpark just fine without it…..but man is it nice. If you have a spare 250-300$ it’s money well spend and the next piece of equipment I suggest if your interested in furthering your knowledge.

Sorry for the small novel, there is just so much to talk about with respect to pump shot. It’s probably one of the hardest parts of tuning to get right, so don’t get discouraged if you have problems. It’s also hard for me to do much other than make educated guesses since most of this type of tuning is done by ear. Next up we’ll start sneaking up on WOT fuel and timing. Key word is “sneak”

xjcamaro89

OK, i played with the excel sheet you gave me and added in my tables from tonights run, i had a lot of empty spaces in my BLM table, so i filled in the blanks a little, mostly with 128 when pretty far away from an actual ready, im not sure which way i should be adding values between values, what are the white cells respresenting? could you explain that table editing stuff a little too. I am emailing you the excel sheet that i played with to post, with tonights run info added in, let me know how I did and what i should have done in some areas, i just kind of looked at the table that was already in there from you to get an idea of what and where to add what sort of values, take a look, let me know what i still need to do , or what I should look for, thanks!

BMmonteSS

It looks like you filled in the missing BLM’s pretty good, make sure you use the wide avg. for the BLM’s and also make sure you enter your current VE curve into the “Old VE” page. You noticed that your data from that last run was pretty sporadic? This is what I’m talking about when you do short log runs. You get some useful data, but not near as much as a good long run up the highway. With your manual trans you might try lugging the engine at different rpm’s and maybe try to do some long 3rd gear pulls at 10% throttle. This should help fill in those high MAP value cells which are the hardest to log. You’ll notice I color coded the cells in my excel file, this isn’t really important other than it shows where you get most of your data. The white cells are the cells I usually get data in, grey is areas that are harder to get, and orange are areas that you need to be careful getting data in if you disable PE mode. Speaking of I’m going to do a quick write up of how to get some of the higher rpm cells filled in.
----------
Now that we’re getting the main part of VE#1 in good shape, we need to start thinking about high rpm’s. When we start getting over 3200 rpm we start getting close to engaging PE mode, which will lock out our BLM’s and run solely on the VE tables. This is why we need to get the VE tables as close as possible, every thing else depends on it. What I like to do is move my “TPS threshold Vs. RPM” (use the “hot” table) table up to say 75% throttle, this will let you cruise at higher RPM without engaging PE mode. Keep in mind that when you’re not in PE mode you’re running at stoic or 14.7 to 1. This is OK in moderation and under light to medium load, but we don’t want to disengage PE mode entirely and do WOT runs to red line. You can burn a piston fast doing that. What we’re going to do is try to log the 3600, 4000, and maybe just a bit of the 4400 rpm areas. What we’re going to be looking for is a trend. Remember that most of our VE curve past 3200 is being governed by the VE#2 table. So we’ll look at the log and see what our avg. BLM is for that RPM row and make changes to the VE#2. Since we don’t really want to run the engine much faster than this we’ll be looking to see what the VE curve looks like and how it looks to be tapering off as RPM’s increase. Once we think this is in the ball park we’ll set our PE mode back to 30% throttle and do some WOT runs to see how power is and watch the NB sensor to make sure we’re not going lean.

A long word on narrow band O2 sensors: The very nature of a narrow band sensor is that it can only accurately see 14.7 to 1 AFR. Trying to use the sensor to tune WOT and richer than stoic mixtures is very hit and miss, actually it’s mostly miss. Like I mentioned earlier carb guys have been tuning cars for years without a WB sensor or any sensors for that matter. Just listening to the motor and doing plug cuts will let you know what’s going on. Some people like to run up through 1st gear and then shut the motor off and pull to the side of the road to pull a plug and check the mixture, I find this just isn’t practical. I use a bit of common sense and use the NB sensor as a very ruff guide. I like to start rich with the NB in the .9xxx range. This is safely rich, it might be 12.5 to 1 or it might be 10.5 to 1, but it’s safely rich. I then start leaning out the mix and listen to the motor. You’ll hear a difference once you get the mixture close, also watch the O2 the voltage will start to drop when you start getting the mixture close to the ideal 12 to1 range. Once you go too far you’ll see the O2 start diving quick, I like to make sure the voltage stays above .750. Any lower and you could be lean. You won’t be able to get your AFR much closer than a half a point or so to what we want, but you won’t be leaving more than 5-10 HP on the table. With a WB you can pretty much dial your AFR to exactly what you want and push the edge a bit.

Speaking of AFR’s, what is best? That all depends on the engine, some like rich mixtures in the low 12’s most like mixtures in the mid to high 12’s and some very efficient motors like LS1’s like mixtures in the low 13’s. We’ll be shooting for mid to low 12’s to stay on the safe side of things. Yes we’ll be leaving a few horses on the table, but you’ll have a happy motor that will last.

What we’ll be changing to play with PE mode:

TPS threshold Vs. RPM : this is the engagement point for PE mode, I like to engage mine early.

WOT AFR vs. RPM: This is the theoretical AFR that the ecm is going to shoot for while in PE mode. This is based off of the VE curve, so that’s why it’s so important that we get it right. The ECM assumes that the VE curve is setup for 14.7 to 1, then it will calculate how much fuel it will need to add to lower the AFR to 12 to1 or whatever we set it to. With a WB I set my table to 12.5 across the board and tune my VE curves to show 12.5 on the WB while at WOT, this way the table will match up with what’s really coming out of the engine and in the future I can just name my AFR without having to hook up the WB.

PE SA vs. BARO: This parameters adds a set amount of timing when PE mode is activated. Some people just zero this and do all there timing in the main timing table. Some like to use this adder.

Sorry for the lack of example .bin files, we're working on getting the posting problem worked out. I may try to put together a .zip file with all the .bin files and associated excel and word file in it and just update it with the new .bin's.

xjcamaro89

I worked on the BLM table stuff and used the Excel sheet BMmonte gave me and plugged in info from last nights log and the xj2 .bin, filled in the gaps and calculated the info for the new VE tables and plugged them back into the xj2.bin and sent them to BMmonte to take a look at. im starting to get the hang of this a little, if BMmonte get to make some changes i could run another logged run tonight and post results and make some more changes, also i think i should be able to let my can warm up and check for the idle problem again since i didnt get to last night. BMmonte is there anything you want me to datalog while the engine is just idleing and warming up? Thanks!

96LT4c4

Bmontess
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Hi, somewhere along the way in search to tune my own GM vehicle I have made it to this forum. This thread is great and has really taught me a lot. I have ordered an AUP1 emulator from moates, which should be at my house today. I haven’t had a chance to do any damage yet so I have just been doing some studying and playing with the software TunerPro RT. I have my .bin and xdf .files. Earlier in this thread you talk about TBI vehicles having 2 VE tables. One being 3d and the other 2d. I have a 94 TBI truck with a 383 that I will attempt to tune. I was looking at my VE tables and notice they are both 3D. Do you have any insight on this? Or what would be the best way to adjust them?
<o></o>
Have you ever used the emulator?


Thanks

96LT4c4

Sorry here are my bin and xdf files

BMmonteSS

XJ, go ahead and run that bin file, the changes you made look fine. It does seem a bit strange that you would still need to add that much fuel down low and take that much out up top….but the next data log should tell you if there was a problem with the last log. Some times you just get screwy data when you take short logs. If the next log looks ok then go ahead and make one more pass over the VE curve (you’ve got the hang of it now) and then concentrate on the idle stuff like I described. I don’t think you’ll have much to do other than smooth out the VE curve and back the throttle plates off a bit. Once you get that done you could start working on the higher RPM parts of your VE curve like I described. You could possibly do this in 3-5 burns tonight. If you have your stock chip to get home on I wouldn’t be afraid to stop in a parking lot to burn another chip.

96LT4, you’re playing with much nicer and complicated code. The OD code is looked upon as the cream of the crop when it comes to TBI code….well at least up until Rbob’s ultimate TBI code came out. Your ECM uses a much bigger chip that has room for big tables like your VE tables. Your main VE is one big table, so you don’t have to mess with the confusing adder stuff the 747 and 746 guys have. Your other smaller 3d table is an idle only table that is used only when the ECM is in “idle mode” which there are several qualifiers in the constants menu that govern when that is used. You’ll be very happy with the autoprom, it will cut down on your tuning time immensely. For those of you who haven’t searched for the autoprom yet, this piece of equipment actually emulates the chip and allows you to make changes on the fly without changing the chip or even pulling over. Very nice, but at a price. I don’t have one yet, but I have played with one and they are the shiznits.

You can adjust the VE tables the same way we do, although my handy dandy spread sheet wont’ work. I also don’t think winALDL will work for a scanner, even if it does it only does the slow baud rate scanning. Your ECM will scan much faster with the proper software. I think there is an .ads file (like an .xdf only for scanning) for tunerpro RT and there are several types of scanners out there but most cost a few bucks.

96LT4c4

Thanks

I will be watching this thread pretty close. So, if you dont mind I might ask you a few more questions as it goes on.

xjcamaro89

Ill try some of that stuff, but my laptop battery doesnt last very long just long enough for me to take the logs ive been posting, thanks, ill let you know how it goes!

BMmonteSS

Walmart has some pretty good deals on small inverters.

DM91RS

Yep just left there and was looking for an inverter for my wifes cell phone. A 100 watt Black & Decker was 17.88.

I bought a 400 watt from Pepboys 2 months ago for $35. It just depends on how much your laptop draws. Mine is only a year old and draws more than others have listed for their older laptops. (180 watts)


Oh yeah and if anybody cares I bought a serial to usb converter at Walleyworld for $25. It's the IOGEAR that Fast355 recommended.

Don't know if it works yet but I'll need it for my ZT2 when it arrives.

xjcamaro89

ok bmmonte, i ran the bin that i adjusted and you told me to run and when i went to pull out of my drive way and get going it puked, at about 1300 rpm, i was logging so ill attach that so you can look at it, i wasnt sure what happened so i didnt bother adjusting anything and burning another chip, luckly i was rolling enough to get into the nieghbors driveway and put the other chip back in, so i dont know what happened, but it felt like it didnt get enough fuel, maybe too lean? You can see on mmy log where the car puked where the rpm is 0. Also i had the XJ2.bin chip in from yesterday and let it idle to see if it got rid of the up and down and it is still there a little, so we need to take care of that too, so right now im stumped on what to do, hope you have some suggestions, thanks and hope to hear from you, thanks!

Also i see you guys talking about inverters, is it ok to run an inverter while datalogging? because then i can datalog a lot farther

xjcamaro89

Here is the rest of the files.

DM91RS

Yes that is why I purchased one. My less than a year old battery started crapping out and did not want to buy another to have it do the same thing in less than a year.

xjcamaro89

I thought i read a post that running a inverter and a laptop while datalogging messes up some reading, maybe im wrong.

DM91RS

John Dewey stated recently that he had issues using a wide band with an inverter but that's the only case that I know of. Using the inverter is nothing new. I have been data logging with winaldl along with BronYrAur (who recommended my inverter) with no problems.

xjcamaro89

Ok, i adjusted the pump shot and wall wetting by 10%, and im going home for lunch so ill try it and see what it does, im also going to let it idle and warm up and save the blm tables, and post them and we can work on my idle, bmmonte if your out there, im still stumped on my problem last night, hope to hear from you, thanks!

BMmonteSS

I’m still out here, I was up to 1:30 last night working on the house (Saturday deadline looms in the distance) so my butts dragging today. My wife is a photographer and she has big photo shoot this weekend. We still have primer, 3 coats of red in the bathroom, 2 coats of black on everything else, a lighting system, a backdrop roller, wood floor in the bathroom and the sink and toilet left to install by 8:00 Saturday morning…..This is gonna suck, Enough of my whining back to tuning.

Your stall could have been a number of things from a corrupted chip to just loading the engine to a part of your VE curve that was too lean combined with not enough pump shot. You have to expect to have problems like that when you’re tuning a new combo. It sometimes takes stalling 2 or 3 times to finally catch and document what really happened. Did you try to start the car again after the stall? Did you get a fast blinking SES light? It sorta looks like you went lean right before the stall. The off idle VE and timing cells need your most attention with a manual car, these areas govern how the car will pull from a stop. You get to skip most of that with an auto. Increasing your pump shot will help a lot too. Keep increasing your pump shot until you get rid of the lean pop you were experiencing, keep in mind that if your VE curves are still off by a good bit this could also change the amount of pump shot needed.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

i had same issues as you when i first modded the engine. i would suggest enrichening the tables significantly so that you can work from a rich condition(122-124) to enleanmnent. also i would add xtra dose of VE in those cells that you fall into after tip in. watch your BLM cells as you accellerate from clutch engage to 2nd gear. you will see that they(higher map@1600-2400rpms) are visited for a short period of time after "tip in" after moderate accelleration. but not long enough to allow "learning." if those cells are lean it will take away from the AE-PS you need(manual transmission). that was my case and i had no idea until the WB showed me the lean spikes in log.

xjcamaro89

Could someone translate that for me. so below 128 is rich and above 128 is lean? Right? Also I have a log and blm table from the idle i did while at lunch. Only pay attention to the log up to when you can see the engine shut off. As of the shutdown yesterday i couldnt tell you if the SES light was blinking, i took the bulb out for it a long time ago since the car didnt run right, and it was always on. What Im going to do is this: Since is is rain/snowing here today, its supposed to be nice tommorow, i got a spliter for my cigerate lighter so i can run the ALDL cable and my laptop at the same time with an inverter. im going to try tommorow to get a nice long run using the XJ2.bin, and try to populate some really good tables to work with, and go from there. I did burn a chip while at lunch with the pump shot and wall wetting values increased by 10% and it didnt do much, so when it comes time should i continue to increase both of those till i get what I want. Also would it help anything if i advanced the timing at all, or should i leave it for now till we get the VE tables and the idle good. Thanks!

xjcamaro89

Here are the files, sorry!

BronYrAur

iTrader: (1)

Hold off on doing anything with the timing until you get your VE table quite a bit better. You look pretty lean around idle. See that 139 and 137 and 134 around there? There are a lot of values that were taken too, so that is accurate. Add in fuel, using the methods BM gave you, into those cells. Then open the graph for the VE table and look at where you just changed those cells, now just drag the values around on the graph, right around where you made the corrections and just smooth it out. Smooth transitions in that area are what you need, so there isn't as much jumpiness. I've found smoothness in VE and Spark tables makes a HUGE difference, especially with a manual trans.

Ronny made some good points too, you want to err on the rich side with your tuning at this point. This is more of a rough VE tune that you're doing now because you're going to have to go over the whole table again after you set up your spark table. AE can definitely be a pain, but at this point seeing how lean you are in spots, i wouldn't add much more than 10% right now because then when you get the VE straightened out the AE will be throwing too much in.

Do some good long logs and get as many values in all the areas as possible. I wouldn't ever even put it into 5th gear, drive around in 3rd and 4th and do some slow pulls through the RPMs. Smooth throttle transitions are key!

Also, you shouldn't need any external power on your ALDL cable, see if it works without power hooked up there's no reason you should need that. Then you won't have to use a splitter for your inverter, I'd be weary about that I think. Email me your .bin file I'd like to take a look at it so far, maybe i can make some suggestions on it too, I've got some experience tuning a mild manual trans combo. I'll pm you my address.

xjcamaro89

Ok here are some good numbers you guys can work with, i took a 1 hr 40+mile datalog, and saw the numbers being more consistant with each other on the BLM table. and they are way off from the numbers I took from the short runs, so now i see why you guys say take a long run! Anay take a look at these files, im going to plug the info into the corrections excel sheet and edit the bin. and then let you guys look at it, and also is the purpose of changing the VE tables over and over again while datalogging to get the car to the point where it runs the same blms on the table over and over again, and at that point is that when you knows you have the data right, im trying my darndness to figure all this stuff out, thanks and hope to hear from you guys soon!

Also for the good idle when the car is warm, it seems to like 150BLM at 800 RPM and 30 MAP, if this means anything right now, thanks!

xjcamaro89

Rest of the files:

RBob

iTrader: (1)

xj, any chance you have an open element on the engine? Temp's dropped like a rock last night in PA. May help explain the high BLM's.

RBob.

P.S. BMmonteSS, nice work on this thread. Good info and great for folks starting out (thank you).