Bubbajones_ya

I was going to try and do a "quick" swap from my 305 to 350, but decided I may want to put a little more effort into this swap so I started a new thread.

I picked up a 350 (880 casting) with 062 vortec heads from a 98 Suburban at my local junkyard. I haven't had a chance to dig deep into the motor yet, but I started disassembly. My first though was that I'd just take my 305 heads/cam/intake and throw them into this block so I could get a fast swap done. However, the consensus seems to be that vortec heads are significantly better at making power (even in stock form) than the swirl ports.

I did recently have my 305 heads redone with a valve job and larger valves, gasket matching, valve guides, and some more stuff to freshen them up. I then put an elgin 1135 cam in with the edlebrock performer tbi intake.

I didn't get the tune quite dialed in on my 305, and I believe I may have a vacuum leak somewhere. The car runs and drives great as is now, but I wanted more power. Ever since I put the powerstroke in my Bronco this summer, my Camaro feels like such a dog, so I needed to give it some more love.


Here is what my current engine bay looks like with the 305 (just not quite as clean as when I took the picture):






Here are a few pictures of the 350 in it's current state:






It looks like these heads could use some cleaning....

I don't know what this sensor is supposed to be, maybe I can just pop this out and put in a new freeze plug?





Some questions I have are:

Since this is going to be a budget build (I don't have gobs of money), should I try to get any work done on the block? (Like a line/hone job, boring, decking etc?) I've never had block work done so I don't know what would be considered "essential" when trying to build the block. I know machine work gets expensive and I don't really have any budget set aside for block work. A few hundred dollars on something might be fine, but 400+ for just the block, I'd probably just pass (unless it's needed, then the project will be on hold.)

Should I reuse my fairly new elgin 1136 cam ( Hydraulic Roller Cam, 288/284, 210/215), or do you guys recommend something else? I don't plan on having much work done to the heads and know the vortec heads have some restrictions when it comes to cam choices in stock form. I like the cam I have now, but got it for my 305, so I don't know if there would be something I should step up to for the 350. Either way, the cam is probably better than the stock one so I won't be upset reusing it.

I've decided to go with a carb intake for now for the vortec heads, what carb intake do you guys recommend for this setup, or are the vortec carb intakes more or less equal in performance? I will eventually get an egr setup, but the carb setups are much cheaper and my Camaro will be in a non-emissions area so I won't have to worry about that.



Overall, I'm trying to keep this project under 1000 bucks or less not including what I spent on the block itself (less would be pretty exciting but I know it costs some dough to get the work done.)

I already have RBob's EBL so I can tune the computer for the new block and equipment (I SUCK at tuning though so I know I'll struggle a bit there, but at least I have the needed equipment!)

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

im working on the lunati 60102 whatever replaced that but similar specs with my tbi 350. ported vortecs, summit intake, 454 tb, external regulator, 1.6s ran a thinner gasket to bump my compression, marine injectors, full lower end, have a machine shop buddy so that helped. otherwise i did the rest myself an shopped around.

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

also went to alex parts for springs studs and guides

Schurkey

It's not a "sensor", it's a block heater that's missing the cord. The screw will turn...and turn...and turn before the retainer can be collapsed enough to remove the heater.

"I" would test it with an ohmmeter, then pull it out with a big pliers. If it tested good, replace the O-ring, and pop it right back in...then look around the engine compartment for a cord that plugs into the heater. Or buy a replacement cord from any parts store that sells that brand of heater. I'll take a wild guess and say that's a Zerostart brand heater.

The middle pin is the ground, the two end pins are the "hot" and "neutral" connections. From "hot" to "neutral", you'll probably see something like 35 ohms. From either "hot" or "neutral" to ground, you should see infinite ohms.

I would do a leakdown test, a compression test, and inspect the timing chain for wear. I don't know what to tell you about the camshaft. I'd be likely to leave it the hell alone until the engine was in the vehicle and running good otherwise. You don't need to be in the position where you don't know if it's the camshaft or your tuning that's causing a problem. AFTER the engine has proven to run well with the relatively stock longblock, you can get fancy with cams and cylinder heads and whatever gets you off.

I would not remove the heads, I would not disassemble the block unless the leakdown or compression test showed a problem, or the timing chain was loose. Put the thing together with your new intake system; the valve cover gaskets should be re-usable. When you have the engine reasonably sealed-up, take it to a car wash and blast it clean. Then install it. (Tip: Don't install the block heater or core plugs, or the block drain plugs until after the car-wash episode. That way, you can aim the wand up inside the block to thoroughly clean inside the water jacket, and no water remains in the block that can dilute your antifreeze later.)

You'll spend forever taking it apart. Once it's apart, you'll want to replace/remachine everything. If it passes some rudimentary tests, install it and get busy on the tune.

The only things I'd replace on this engine is
1. ALL the core plugs, (because there's evidence of cooling system neglect)
2. Timing chain and gears if needed.
3. The pan gasket/main seal/torsional damper seal, if they look like they're leaking; or because you have to in order to replace the timing chain.

Bubbajones_ya

Thanks again Schurkey for the advice.

When I get some time later this week, I'll see if I can get a decent leak down tester and test the block. In the meantime, I'll try the cheapskate method and fill the block with compressed air. I'm surprised at how little free time I've had these past few weeks but I should have some by the end of this week! I did finally get around to re-clear coating the top of my Bronco. I had to do that before it got too cold!

I'm pretty excited about this engine build, but I'm also slightly nervous. I didn't pay too much attention when I pulled the engine, but the suburban I pulled the engine from didn't seem to be cosmetically damaged much (the front bumper/grill was gone, but the radiator was still attached to the hose and wasn't damaged).

I'm hoping it wasn't junked for engine troubles and that it was transmission or something else I missed. The thing is, finding a 350 in a junkyard here (especially one for 230 bucks) is very rare.

I'll see if I can order some core plugs/timing chain set and gaskets. I never have replaced core/freeze plugs (are those the same thing by the way?), but I assume it's not too difficult.

dmccain

iTrader: (2)

I'm picking up an L31 today for $200. Supposedly 70k. I will be watching your build closely. I think your Elgin cam would be a good match for your TBI system I'm thinking of running something pretty similar from Herbert cams.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Yes, core and freeze plugs are the same thing. As for the block heater, just toss it, you're in Arizona, absolutely no need for it.

To install the core plugs the trick is to use a socket or piece of pipe/metal that is slightly smaller then the OD of the lip. The plug needs to be driven in by the lip, not the center area of the plug. Use a non-hardening sealant (Permatex #2), on the outer area/diameter of the plug lip where it contacts the block. Then drive it in until flush or slightly below flush with the block.

Replacing all of the core plugs is common and should be done. They tend to rust from the inside out.

Note that silicone-sealer/RTV has no place on an engine (just say no). The RightStuff is OK in limited amounts.

RBob.

bluers91

I just got finished doing a similar conversion on my car. In fact I just posted a new thread about it a few minutes ago. I still have questions like you do. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/739215-my-vortec-350-hotcam.html

I think your Elgin cam would work great and would probably use it but I'd consider going a little bigger if you want power above 5000k rpms. .
You may want to replace the valve springs and retainers to make sure you have enough clearance if you do put a cam in it.
I would replace the timing cover and put a new timing set whether you change the cam or not. Mine was very loose. With the upgraded cam you would want a roller timing set anyway. I would also upgrade the cam now because doing it after the engine is in the car is more of a PITA.

There is no real way to know how good the shortblock is unless you tear it all the way down. I did that and I'm glad that I did. It did cost me some extra time and money but it was well worth it to know I have good clearances, new gaskets, new rings and bearings. Rings and bearings are cheap! I didn't hit the machine shop like most people do. It really depends on what you find by tearing it apart. It does take a lot of time to tear it down, clean piston rings lands, hone, etc.

Do you have any idea how many miles it has on it?

Bubbajones_ya

I'm thinking I may be cheap and hope it doesn't bite me in the butt. I haven't had a chance to go back to the junk yard and see if the odometer is still in the suburban to check the miles. I wish I was smart enough to have done that while I was there, but I was too worried about not having the proper tools to pull the motor at the yard (and several people came by wishing they could have taken the motor while I was working on it). If when I take off the oil pan, there is no play on the crankshaft bearing caps or discoloration on the rods, I might just go ahead and reseal the engine and put in my elgin cam (with new valve springs and seals.) I MAY buy a whole new camshaft to throw in so I can keep my old 305 completely intact just in case something goes wrong or if I want to save that for another build in the future.

I'd love to do a teardown, but I'm afraid it will cost me 1k that I don't have (because I'm not sure if I will mess things up and not be able to use the old bearings/seals if I take it apart, and won't know exactly what size bearings/rings etc to get if I pull my old ones out). I can't properly do a compression test with the motor out of the car either. I'll have to get a leakdown tester before I spend any big money (like a new cam and the vortec carb intake). So hopefully it won't be to confusing for me to use it when I get my hands on one.



I did some reading and using vortec heads and the cooling system and may have confused myself.

Will I have to do anything special with water pump outlet routing if I use a carbed intake with the vortec heads and block, or can I just slap on a normal water pump and thermostat and be good to go? I think I read that coolant doesn't route properly with a carb intake with the vortec block and heads, and you have to have a bypass hose from the water pump routed somewhere (but I don't know where.)

If I do have to do re-routing, does anyone have any pictures of what needs to be done?

Bubbajones_ya

I haven't had too much time to get much done but have made some small progress. I did go back to the junkyard to check the odometer on the suburban and the condition it was in. The truck wasn't in a wreck so something else put it in there... also, the odometer was taken by the time I got back so I couldn't see the mileage!

I had a chance to pull off the oil pan and there wasn't any debris in the pan, and no discoloration of anything in there. I proceeded to take some more stuff apart.

I ended up re-buying some impact sockets (lost my old pair...) so I got some Made in USA metric Craftsman longsockets! I took the torque converter and flywheel off and the rest of the spark plugs.

When I was rotating the engine by hand, I heard some clanking every once in a while which scared me. Upon taking off the timing cover, I realized the chain was somewhat loose. I think one of the links in the chain is stretched, because at a certain part in rotation, the chain gets much looser on the sprockets and both sides have a bit of play (that's what the clanking noise was coming from as well.)

I'm guess the timing chain was on it's way out, and since the previous owner already spent money on intake gaskets (possibly a head gasket as well since some head bolts are new), they just got tired of it after the timing chain got loose. Maybe they thought it was rod knock when it was just the chain?



Anyways, I'm hoping just the chain is worn and that the main/rod/cam bearings are okay. There wasn't any play vertical play in the rod bearings so that's good news.



I think my gameplan is:

- Clean and paint the motor
- New oil pump
- New oil pan (old one had some weird nylon plug I don't want to mess with
- Replace seals (oil pan gasket, rear/front main, timing cover, intake)
- New timing chain set
- New water pump
- New harmonic balancer
- Throw in my elgin 1136 cam
- Get the edelbrock performer carb intake and tbi adapter
- reuse my 305 clutch kit/flywheel



I also have to figure out the oil filter setup. There was an adapter bolted on that mounted the pump parallel with the motor and looked like it was setup (but not actually drilled) for an oil cooler. I dont' think the oil filter fit in the Camaro with the adapter on, but it looks like there isn't a way to screw on the filter without that adapter. There must be something else I'm missing there.

bluers91

I didn't do any bypass just drilled a couple of small holes in the thermostat to let some water through. I read that somewhere here on thirdgen. I think Fast355 mentioned it on another post.

Bubbajones_ya

I'll probably drill some small holes in the thermostat just to be on the safe side then as well.

I've had almost no time to work on the camaro recently either! I think tomorrow evening after the family disperses from Christmas lunch/dinner, I'll be able to spend some time wrenching away. I have work off Monday and next Friday/monday as well, so I think I'll have the motor in the camaro pretty soon.

I did manage to clean off the 350 and paint it with some eastwood ceramic spray can stuff. The block/heads are a ceramic black now, and I'll reuse my chrome looking valve covers. I think I'm going to keep the edelbrock intake I ordered plain aluminum for now as well.


I'm that swapping the camshaft from my 305 to this 350 goes somewhat smoothly as well. I'll probably start on replacing the valve springs and valve stem seals on the vortec heads tomorrow, then potentially start pulling the 305 out if I have time.

Bubbajones_ya

So super slow progress but I finally got some time to start some work today.

I started pulling the valve springs and installing the new ones I have, as well as new stem seals and doing the "ghetto grind", at least partially.

I ground down the first retainer from 0.413 inches to 0.377 inches. I don't think I'll need to grind the retainers down much more than that with my elgin 1136 cam. In fact, I may be good without grinding them altogether, but I figured I'd grind down a little bit for some extra insurance.

When it came to doing the intake valve on cylinder 1, it seemed like I had a tremendous intake valve leak.... my compressor couldn't keep up with the air and I couldn't push my hand closed on the intake port of the cylinder head.

I was getting very worried. I took the valve in my hand and pushed it up and down while turning it however. I then hooked the air back up and everything seems good! I guess a bunch of old residue built up on the valve to prevent it from closing.

I hope the other cylinders go well. Grinding these retainers down is going to take a long time... I have a grinder, but its kinda small, so I have to finish them up with sandpaper and a flat surface...

Schurkey

I can only imagine the damage you're doing to the retainers. How do the keepers fit, now? Photos?

Bubbajones_ya

I'll get some photos and post them up soon.

The keepers still fit well. I've read people try and grind down the retainers until the keeperss and retainers are flush, but I'm not grinding them down that far. The keepers are still up in the retainers about 1 to 2 32nds of an inch after I grind the keepers down. So far, all the keepers have been at 0.413 inches initially, and I have ground them all down to 0.375-0.377 inches. It's pretty hard to grind them down exactly perfect with an air grind and some sandpaper, but I think that should be close enough.

Bubbajones_ya

Here's me pulling the exhaust valve spring on cylinder 3 (I think it's cylinder 3. I get confused between Ford's and Chevy's cylinder designation. One has banks being 1234 and 5678 and the other has 1357 and 2468.)



Here's the retainer before grinding (of course this one isn't 0.413 when my previous post said they are all at 0.413 initially)




Here it is ground down to 0.375





I probably will take a break after one of two more cylinders. This is taking a bit longer than I anticipated. My clutch hydraulics is supposed to come in for the Bronco today as well so I can throw out the old stuff on there now. There is a blockage or something which makes the clutch feel stiff halfway through, then softer the rest of the way. It is much more difficult to drive like that, especially with the diesel in there now and the extra torque so I'll be moving onto the project when my package comes in!

I'm hoping I can get my Camaro's 305 pulled though this weekend and most of the needed parts unbolted and swapped. I think I still need to get a 350 spark module and I potentially mess with a new timing cover. I didn't order a vortec block cover and was hoping I can just get away with the 305 cover since it has the timing marker installed already. That way I can use my old damper as well. Otherwise, I think I'll have to buy a new timing cover and damper for the vortec block which will be probably about 130 bucks!

Schurkey

First Guess: You've got an oil FILTER adapter (not pump) intended for a 4X4 truck application. You'll need a filter adapter to suit the Camaro chassis. I bet the original one from the 305 is suitable.


Please crop (and resize when needed) your photos.

Note that GM builds the retainers with something of a radius on the bottom surfaces. You'll want to re-create a small radius on both the ID and OD when you're done grinding. Cracks love a sharp edge.

Overall, that looks way better than I expected.

Do the new springs actually FIT the old retainers?

What ignition system?

Far as I know, the old stamped-steel timing cover won't fit onto a Vortec block. GM's engineers saved thirty cents by eliminating a bunch of bolts, and making the plastic timing cover disposable. However, I've been wrong before.

Bubbajones_ya

Haha yeah I will definitely make sure to resize the photos. The other forum I post on usually does it for me and I've noticed they seem pretty huge recently when posting here. I guess I changed the resolution on my phone pictures recently without noticing!

I wasn't sure about the oil filter adapter, that is good news! I don't know why I typed pump when I was clearly thinking filter... I didn't realize it was a bolt on piece that's most likely on the 305 so hopefully it's just a piece I can swap out.

That's definitely good advice for making the radius on the retainers, I'll go back and make sure I add that to the retainers I've already done. I just got my mechanical engineering degree and this was a big thing we went over (sharp corners create stress concentration.) I should have been thinking more about that but I suppose it takes a while to put what you learn into practice!

As for the ignition system, I have the stock TBI ignition on my camaro now. I was planning on reusing my distributor/coil/etc and then tune my computer for the 350 (using the EBL.) I think I read that the knock sensor sends it's reading to the spark module (maybe it's called something different though) that sits on the drivers side firewall near the fuel pump relay. I have the stock 305 module there, and read on several forums that the one for a 350 is technically different. However, I have read a few things were people said they didn't change it either, but that wasn't as common.

As for the timing cover... well I'd wish I could reuse my old cover but it may not be possible. I know that 2 of the holes are not drilled in the block, but it looks like the rest of the holes line up exactly with the old cover (I haven't put the cover up to the 350 block though.)

Getting a new cover with a damper wouldn't be too expensive and probably simplify things the most. I might wait to order one until I get to the point of pulling my 305 and taking the parts off that motor I need for the 350.

Thanks Schurkey for all the information and help so far! It's definitely helps to have some guidance along the way for things I'm not too familiar with!

Bubbajones_ya

Turns out I have to put the 350 swap on (semi) hold for now. My Bronco has been deciding to EAT oil and also I believe it's fuel pump went out.

I rerouted the crankcase vent BACK into the air filter (like the OEM setup on the 7.3 powerstrokes), but I did it slightly differently due to the PO messing with the ducting. I believe I created a vacuum for the intake to suck the oil from the crankcase. I was at 5 quarts of oil when it should be around 15......

But, I also got my glowshift fuel gauge working and its reading 35-40 psi at idle when I believe it's supposed to be at 50-75. Therefore I have to replace the fuel pump and I believe I'm going to swap to an electric system.

Since that will be happening, I have to drive my Camaro for a while now so I can't take out the 305 in the meantime! I still have to finish grinding down the retainers and swapping springs though so I have some more work that can be done before the motor needs to get pulled!

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

It's always something, isn't it?

As usual, the old 305 shoulders the load, but gets none of the love.

Bubbajones_ya

Haha oh my 305 is loved! It's just time for a nice little upgrade that's all! I'm very impressed how well this 305 has held up with the awful maintenance the previous owners had for my car.

When I first bought the car, the body was straight, but everything else was in terrible shape (interior, paint, wrong transmission and not even bolted up properly, leaks etc.) I've seen many cars in the junkyard in better shape then this. Despite that, this old 305 kept running strong. I've done a bit of work to it and cleaned it up, but it took a LOT of abuse with no signs of quitting!

I think the vortec heads and 350 block should be a nice HP upgrade though when everything is all said and done. I do feel bad about taking apart my 305 though... but I know I'll make more power with the 350!

Bubbajones_ya

So my slave cylinder popped on me on my drive to work today! Luckily it was right when I pulled into the gas station for my morning coffee and breakfast bagel!

I suppose that's what I get with going with an O'Reilly brand replacement slave a year ago...... Looks like I got about another year to go now! (I'll get a good replacement slave soon)

My Bronco is leaking fuel into the oil probably from the mechanical fuel pump on top as well, so I'll be driving my Camaro a little longer than I thought before I get around to that swap. It drives very nice though so that's good. I can feel that I need a better fuel pump though with my current setup with the 305...

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

Bubbajones_ya

Haha... yeah I always read to avoid part store place parts, and these past few years have really shown me why.

I just needed to get a replacement slave today and quickly, and the only local place is O'Reilly's so it was too convienient.

I'll probably look on Rockauto and see if they sell OEM slave cylinders. That's where I got my current LUK clutch set and its working really well compared to the part store brand replacements in the past.

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

It's just sad that the big chains carry cheap (China?) parts like that they fail again too soon, leaving owners stranded, and with a second repair to do. You "ought to" be able to trust the parts you are sold.

Bubbajones_ya

Yeah I know it really is pretty upsetting.

Chain store sometimes do sell OEM stuff, but they ask way too much money for those parts (compared to places like RockAuto and Amazon). It upsets me how the quality of the components are so poor that it's a big gamble trusting a store bought part like a distributor or clutch hydraulics.

I know they have markup for overhead fees and employee wages, but their parts quality is still too low.

Bubbajones_ya

Well I'm going to get around to doing a little more work today finally! I'll see if I can get the rest of those spring retainers ground down and the valve stem seals in place.

However, my Bronco still has some issues which will continue to put this swap on hold. Originally, fuel was getting in the oil which I thought was coming from the mechanical fuel pump in the valley of the motor. Well I ordered an electric fuel kit and installed it. I was still getting fuel in the oil, quite a bit.

After compression testing the motor, I found the compression was below the minimum specs for a worn out engine..... it's surprising how well a 7.3 motor runs with awful compression. Anyways, I have to pull another motor and swap it in place of the one in it now. Once that is up and running again, I can take my 302 out and apart to do more work to the 350!