jesse83cfi

ok my mission guys is to build what is to be the baddest crossfire injection 305 ever! no nos just pure motor. hear me out
ok here it goes...
s/r torquers 305
harland sharp roller rockers
x-ram
send my throttle bodies to turbo city to get them bored out to 2in.
a crane cam with probably @ 220 degrees
accel super coil
moroso blue max wires
bosch plat 4 plugs
3inch exhaust
high flow cat
shorty headers from hooker
bigger 2 1/2 y piping
flow master muffler
3.73's in rear with a eaton posi
no a/c belt to run
no smog pump or A.I.R tubes either
flex lite fan no clutch
180 degree thermo
aluminum driveshaft
a trans go shift kit
and dual k and n's on top
now u guys got to tell me this would be a kick azz 305 and it could easily top over 275 in hp. in utah this is still an emissions legal car since mine is 1983. id like to hear any other good ideas from anyone. right now my car has some of these goodies on it but not even close to all of them.

JoBy

That sounds good but I may I suggest using an Offenhauser Cross-Ram instead of the X-Ram.

The Cross-Fire is a smaller version of the old ( late sixties ) GM Cross-Ram used on Camaros. They made over 450 hp @ 7200 rpm with these intake manifolds on the 302 engine. The Offenhauser intake is almost an exact copy of the GM Cross-Ram.

I have bought an Offenhauser and some other parts:


This is a Cross-Fire intake on top of an Offenhauser Intake.











You can read more about the Cross-Ram history here:

http://www.camaros.org/crossram.shtml

http://www.camaro-untoldsecrets.com/...s/crossram.htm

iroc22

That would be bad. Let's see it done!

soulbounder

I agree with JoBy. Go with the Offy. You may have issues with hood clearance though.

JoBy, if you ever come across a dual quad offy intake for a SBC, let me know. I need one for my 427 SB.

Tas

Isn't the X-ram just a cross ram looking top bolted onto a 7547 weiand intake? What is the point of that? Just haveing everything line up nice like stock? Anyone have a link?

Tas

nevermind. I found it on www.google.com
http://www.x-ram.com/X-Ram%20Different.htm

RSRagtop

Don't waste your money sending your TBs to Turbo City. If you don't mind taking them apart yourself, go the the Crossfire Injection Vault and talk to Dan ( Lionsden ). His work is top notch and his prices are lower.

RSRagtop

Oh, I forgot, go for it jesse83cfi! Mine planned combo is almost exactly like your except for a ported factory intake and ported LG4 heads. Not as stout as yours, but I'll have my little blue friend to help me out ( Nitrous ).

JoBy

The X-Ram is a single plane manifold with an adapter to put the TBI's in the stock location. It is a good design. Lot's of people use them and they do flow much more than the stock Cross-Fire. The X-Ram is also a true 'bolt on'.

The Offenhauser Cross-Ram is much bigger than the stock manifold and may have several clearance problems.

It is still available brand new from PAW. http://www.pawinc.com/
Three different lids are available. Single quad, dual quad and tripple weber. I will create a custom lid for the TBI's.

These prices are probably old:

Tas

I asked because I have that intake that the x-ram uses. its only $95. Why pay for another $200 or $300 on top of that for the x-ram. Just get a 454 or 670 TBI.

Grumpy

I've actually built a 13.7 XFire (thou350).
3.7s are too much gear.

The XFire manifold will support 325 HP, as in I did it.

The XRams were a miserable manifold for the street and 99% of them were used with manual tranny applications. They were also designed to run on 302s at 7,000 rpm.

The hardiest and most time consuming part is getting the ecm to run a decent cross fire, you'll want a 747 or 8746 and that means rewiring the ecm connectors, you'll do better by going in stages, ie do the electronics, and get used to prom burning before you get into the mechanicals of the situation.

2" butterflies, late BBC injectors take alot of work to get right, plus all the fuel lines need reworked so the TB are in parrarel rather then series.

Looking thru the arhives at DUY-EFI and GMECM will fill in what to do to the manifold to get it to work.

JoBy

Can you explain why the Cross-Fire design can work so well on the street with lot's of low end tourqe and still the Cross-Ram is miserable ??? It is the same basic design ! The Cross-Ram runners flow about 70% more than the stock Cross-Fire.

The problem they had with that manifold was dual large 4bbl carbs and a wild cam on the street trying to duplicate the race setup. I think that it would be a very streetable engine with two 2" TBI's, computer control and a street cam.

ops32

If you want the baddest Crossfire engine, you gotta stick with the Crossfire manifold. Change the manifold and the car is no longer a Crossfire... Just MHO.
Changing the manifold to a Xram and you'll be working toward the baddest Xram car, ditto for the Offy manifold...
To me, this is the equvilent of saying you'll have the fastest automatic car just as soon as you install the 6 speed Lenco...

Rob

jesse83cfi

ops u have a very good point but, im still gonna use the throttle bodies from the original crossfire, plus the x ram or the offy is still the same design but different name. i would kill for my cfi 305 to pull a 13.7 damn in utah that would be some fast sh*t. cars here run low 15's and rarely u will see a muslce car on the street who can run low 14's or lower. im just so sick of everyone hating the 305 that i cant stand it anymore, i need to prove to alot of peeps that these engines can stomp some sh*t in the ground. thanxs for all ur guys info, i might be looking into an offy if i can fit it under my bulge hood!
jesse

ops32

I hear ya! I've been looking at dual quad (inline) manifolds and wondering what it would take to put my throttle bodies on one! Probably need bigger bores in the TBs and somehow change the firing order for them, but it'd be a cool setup! I love the looks of the Crossfire so I'll stick with that while I fix up the rest of the car...
Rob

jesse83cfi

if i can find a place to bore out my tbi's for a descent price i would send them their, plus i wonder if the offy would fit under the ram air 2 hood? anyone know or tried it them selves?
all the crossfire people in this board better put a reply in, lets show the tpi-ers we got some stuff cooking in out tbi board!!!
jesse

RSRagtop

Lionsden ( Dan ) will bore them to 2" for about $95. I was quoted $150 locally. Plus he fills a hole that is made by machining and aluminum plug. He does top notch work. He will also bore them out even larger, like 2.130" , but those a bit pricier because the TBs have to be sleeved. You can find him on the Crossfire Injection Vault message boards. I'm pretty sure the offy x-ram will fit under just about any Camaro hood ( we have a little more room ) but be warned that this swap require some fab work since none of your original brackets will work, plus the factory aircleaner won't fit. The Vette guys have clearance problems with the wiper motor and the air pump. The offy might be a bit big for a little 305. You probably don't need and X-ram either. The X-ram has been tested on a flow bench and it doesn't really outflow a good ported CFI intake by much, which makes it not worth the $ IMO. I'm porting my intake right now, it isn't too tough, just time consuming.

jesse83cfi

ive tried a hundered times over to get into the injection vault
maybe if u could give me his email address or something that would be good, i dont know how to port out the manifold or heads, never dont it in my life! but if u could get dans emial that would be kool rs!
thanxs
jesse

RSRagtop

You can't get in? Did you sign up to be a member? The address is: www.crossfire.webhop.net/ I'd give you Dan's mail address but I don't have it either. JoBy probably has it or somebody else from the Vault might know, most of those guys are over here from time to time. Porting the manifold isn't too bad. Trust me, I'm only 18, still in college and portin' a manifold. If you can ever get in the Vault there are ton of excellent pics and lots of older posts that talk about a lot of the finer details. Don't be afraid to ask questions over there, those guys know everything about CFI . If you can't get in, I'll email you some pics of my manifold in the works.

Grumpy

Look at the cross sectional area of the runners. Manifolds are desiigned for specific operating conditions, the Cross ram was designed in 67 for use on the 302 Trans Am engines. They were designed to run at 5-7,000 rpm. You don't need anything near that for running from 1-5,000 RPM.

Choking down the carb size doesn't reduce the port size or plenum area.

Like I said, I've actually spent the time working out how to get a XFire to run, so I'm not guessing or expressing an opinion about what works.

By the way, so far all anyone's really mentioned is the manifold, and the calibration to run it is another issue. There are limits to the software.

383/406, those might be a fun application for a Cross Ram.

With a wet manifold like the Cross Ram X Fires you have to maintain enough port velocity to keep the fuel in suspension to reach the ports. The smaller ventries of the 4 barl gives a higher velocity to help keep the fuel in suspension, notice how the Xfire uses vanes to try and get the fuel in suspension. That's also why a .25 lid spacer works so well.

JoBy

Jessie83cfi,
Send an e-mail to admin@crossfire.homeip.net
explain your problem and any errormesage you get when trying to access the Cross-Fire Vault.

Grumpy,
The runners are like funnels. At the intake port they are the same size as the X-Ram.
On the 302 with a wild cam the power range was 4200-7200 RPM. The same air on a 350 would move that down to 3600-6200 RPM. With a street cam that will move down a bit more. It might be big for a 305.

There are a few guys installing Cross-Rams on the Vault now and the results seems very good so far. Good idle and good throttle respons.

ops32

The Crossfire vault moved to a server that utilizes some different "whatever..." I'm not a computer literate guy so I didn't understand it all, but the server routes things differently now. What that boils down to is some folks' computers cannot access the vault. I'm one of those guys... But I found out that I can use an old computer of mine with a 33 modem and access the vault. It's slower than I'm used to but I can access it that way.
Rob

Grumpy

I guess you've never actually looked at a XFire runner at the port side, have you?.
They are much smaller then in a normal SBC manifold, they use a reversion wall principle to aid in cylinder filling.
The 302 had a MUCH better bore to stroke ratio, and rod lenght to stroke ration then a 305 could ever think about, and to even consider the Cross ram for it is way beyond practical.

Shall we even start on the electronics end of it?
The Prom would be a real challenge, even for someone that's been at it for a while.

JoBy

Sure I have ... I have read about the reversion wall principle and it makes sense. The same thing is often used on the exhaust port to header transition. Lot's of people have ported and port-matched the Cross-Fire manifold to the heads (not me) and therby removed the reversion wall. Everyone that I have head do this so far said that it was a good power increase, never heard a bad word. The gain is not from removing the reversion wall but from having a larger runner with one restriction removed.



The port size I was reffering to was the X-ram, not the Cross-Fire.

Well ... I still belive in the Cross-Ram, I have one, and I am going to use it ... Time will tell how the car will run

jesse83cfi

thanxs for all the info guys ill try that address asap!!!
this is getting to be a pretty big topic now!!
tonight i just took most of my smog pump stuff and the engine bay looks pretty damn good! i just need to get it out of our sand pit and on the driveway to where i can put in up on a jack and get to the smog pump and the ac bracket!
im about ready to install hookers shorty headers on my ride, do u guys think it will have a check engine light on when i crank her over without all the emissions stuff on it?
thanxs for all the info guys!!!
jesse

nsimmons

you shouldnt get a code if you leave the egr solenoid hooked up.

i've blocked my egr off, since ive cut the egr channel out of the manifold and the exhaust being dumped into the rear cylinders makes it run funny.

Grumpy

The transistion is so short that the port match is exactly that, if you try to carry it more then .5" or so back up into the port you'll break thru.

Oh well,
have a nice day, and fun trying to get the MAP filtering right on that manifold.

Mean while I'll actually enjoy my XFire that is actually running.

JoBy

Grumpy,

Thanks, Have a nice day you too!

We seem to have different opinions every now and then, but that is part of the fun. As I said ... time will tell ...

Supercharging a Cross-Fire was impossible too, and that turned out pretty well.

jesse83cfi

joby how well does the supercharger work?
what kind of a gian did u get?
looks sweet man ur the first person i know to try that!

JoBy

Jessie,

I measured a 65% hp increase from the supercharger. I measured around 300 rwhp, and that is on a compleatly stock engine. I had not even removed the valve covers at the time. I had removed all emissions stuff and built a new free-flowing exhaust.

These are my G-Tech numbers ( on the street with no so good street tires )

0-60 MPH
Consistent 5 sek with a best of 4.73 sek.

1/4 mile, three runs made one after another.
12.73 sek, 116.3 mph
12.76 sek, 114.1 mph
12.89 sek, 113.9 mph

The numbers could be imporived with better traction at the start. I had to start from idle, and I could not step on it right away because the then I would just smoke the tires.

I have not seen a supercharger on any other Cross-Fire yet.

jesse83cfi

man i know u wouldn't want to do this but, maybe u could show us x fires how to install a vortech supercharger?
today i just got done putting in my passenger side hooker header and it is sweet! it took 3 days to do but now im almost 1/2 way done with the driver side manifold! it is the biggest pain in my *** to do this, dont let anyone ever tell u that it is easy to put headers on these motors! joby those are the most amazing numbers i have seen for an xfire, keep it up!
jesse

nsimmons

click on jonas's sig, he has pictures of most of his blower install, actually wasnt very hard, he had to make a couple brackets and the air box.

JoBy

jesse,

Yes, click my sig.

The hard part was to be able to close the hood ...

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Now what if I told you that it has already been done (the offy) w/ not too much on the electronics....

And for the guys having problems getting on the vault.. it uses port 81 instead of the normal 80 ((or 8080) for http tranfer.

This is fixed by http://www.crossfire.webhop.net (wich in fact is http://www.crossfire.homeip.net:81 <- must use http: here because browser doesn't recognise port 81 as http transfer)

On some ISP's that doesn't work.. then use https://www.crossfire.homeip.net (secure connection, uses a port different from 80, yet standard as secure in a browser.. it is slower tho!)

Marck

jesse83cfi

are u putting this into a cfi car??
does anyone know why my car idles high after its warmed up?
the headers are on now and their is no exhaust hooked to them so is that m problem or what???
thanxs for any help guys!
jesse

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

That once was a CFI motor, it's still a crossram tho.

As for the high idle.. where did you leave the O2 sensor?? If it's on the collector you're proibably getting a false lean signal.

Marck

jesse83cfi

i think ur right man cause the o2 sensor is a couple inches from the end of the collector which has no exhaust on the end of it!
thanxs again for the pointer!!!
jesse

Grumpy

Oh?.
He's mine and it runs 13s.
Might add, not onely runs but runs correctly.

wdigitog

fun listening to you guys! I also have a 83 cfi zee but i'dlike 300 horses out of it and your idea of boring out the tb's sounds good. i was thinking of swapping a 350 or a 383 for the 305 instead of the actually messing with the tb's...except for the size of the tb's. any of you guys actually done this motor swap? i too love my cfi...just need more go!

redcamaro83

I'm curious about how easily or should i say how hard it would be to get 300+ out of the x fire after i change to my 350 (probably a truck enigne) what would i need. (in case anyone one is curious i will be aquiring one {xfire z28} in less than a week).

wdigitog

in the interim since my last entry i've spoken to my engine builder..and between us we deceided that 300+ is easy with a 350, cam change, 2"TB's, and ported heads..it wouldn't hurt to upgrade the fuel pump either.

Dominic Sorresso

wdigitog,

I have a port-matched and Extrude Hone'd Xfire manifold matched to TFS 23d heads. I can also attest to the fine work Dan Plett does on boring and sleeving TB's. Currently, I am running a pair of his 2.13" butterfly TB's. Swapped out a set of 2" from TB City. Odd that some of us on the Crossfire Forum were having a similar "discussion" regarding the amount of airflow required for making power. My last dyno run showed APPROX 340hp@4800rpm/437lbft@3800rpm. What I found (using a WB on a dyno) was that the fuel mixture was going lean at WOT. So it appears that the issue isn't airflow but getting enough fuel there.
So far my experience matches what Bruce has to say about it

BTW, did the lidspacer too.

wdigitog

so did you do anything about injectors, or fuel pressure? a lot of guys swear by switching to a '85 pump and upping the fuel pressure at the regulator. 2.13"TB's are supposed to give you about 750cfm..that should be enough fuel delivery.

Dominic Sorresso

widigitog,

Yes, as Bruce will tell you the stock 62/66# injectors on a Xfire are inadequate to support those power levels. Some will argue bumping up pressure, but that causes the fuel flow to become erratic and not well controlled. In order to use twin 80# injectors , I had to first switch the plumbing from "in series" to "parallel". Otherwise proper tuning isn't really possible. Much of this has already been well documented by members of this forum. I would hypothesize that switching from in-series to parallel plumbing would also benefit the stock setup.
In conjunction with the injector swap, I found the LT 1 pump to be better than the 85 pump. As for fuel pressure, I am currently running a tad over 10psi and have yet to hook up the vacuum boost port on the Aeromotive regulator. As for the 2.13's, I think 750 cfm is plenty for the motor at that rpm range. It takes some tuning to get a slight hesitation out of the 1600-1800rpm range, but that's why ECM's are so wonderful. These changes along with installing 1.6 ratio rockers on the intake, extended the power peak from 4300-4800rpm and the power drop off was flattened considerably with less than a 10hp loss between 4800 and 5200rpm.

wdigitog

dominic: sounds like you've really done your homework..that's the first time i've heard of parallel plumbing at the TB's..i guess with that set-up you could use matched injectors
and would make tuning easier...i guess successful fuel delivery is the main problem with any CFI set-up....that's the only thing that worries me concerning my future 305 to 350 swap. i have a '83 CFI Z-28...and will drop a rebuilt 350 with aluminum L-98 heads under a modified CFI intake, 2"TB'sw/spacers etc. i just hope the fuel delivery could be made to support these mods( plus a hotter cam )....hope i can continue to go to you guys for future problems..Stan

Dominic Sorresso

Stan,

BTW, I am originally from Bushwick. Then lived in South OZ and Howard Beach. The real pioneering work on the Xfire came from Bruce. I just followed what he did with some enhancements due to modern day technology. Although its certainly possible to get more power from your motor using some other method of induction, the fun part is maximizing what you have and surprising the hell out of those that think the Xfire is a candy-a** motor. It develops lots of torque. One of my friends called it a
"Diesel Corvette". And for the street, that's a ton of fun. The Xfire has long been thought of being unable to move enough air. But with the proper modifications, the problem is getting enough fuel. The real reason the manifold "peters out" is because it goes lean at 4000rpm.

wdigitog

dominic: to be specific:do you mean the stock intake goes lean at 4000 or even a modified intake...ie. 1/2"lid spacer, extra TB gasket, egr channel removal, porting the openings to match the heads, chopping out the swirl vanes etc. would you remove the swirl vanes entirely or just open up the perches? what else can be done to eliminate that "wall"? i know the question is about maintaining atomization at high intake velicities right? stan

Dominic Sorresso

wdigitog,

I can't speak to what happens with a totally "stock manifold". My documentation is specific to a manifold that has been port matched to TFS23d heads and then Extrude Hone'd. On a DynoJet Dyno with a WB, the AFR went from 12.5:1 up to 14:1 between 4000-5000rpm. Consequently the HP dropped off. The injectors were in the stock "in-series" configuration and using the
Vette 62/66# stagger front/rear. The manifold also has a 5/16" lidspacer and an additonal 1/8" TB pod spacer. The motor pulled 315-320hp with a peak of 4300rpm.
Since then I have plumbed the TB's in parallel, installed 2.13"TB,
have 80# injectors running at 10.25psi and gone with 1.6 ratio rockers on the intake. Swirl plates are still installed but modified to remove the side walls. Along with lidspacer and cutting about 3/4" from the roof of the runner, this seems to provide a more direct path for the fuel mixture to travel. Fewer twists and turns means you can maintain velocity. I picked up about another 12 before any WOT tuning and bumped power and torque peaks by 500rpm. Now I've installed 1.6 rockers on the exhaust side as well and done some tuning of the IAC control. I don't have any results yet but plan on going back to the dyno again soon.

wdigitog

dominic: i'd really be interested in your dyno #'s now...i've heard it makes more sense to increase fuel pressure to 13psi at the injectors rather than increasing the size of the injectors ie. leaving the stock injectors and increasing the regulator settings....you get more atomization for a longer duration..you hear of this? stan

Dominic Sorresso

wdigitog,

If there's a need to crank up the fuel pressure, it would be for WOT operation. So having 13psi running all the time is like using a shotgun to kill a fly. If you wanted to do that, I'd suggest going with a VAFPR. Tom 400CFI has done that successfully from what I've read. That way you increase pressure when its needed. Overall though, I don' think there's a substitute for equalizing fuel distribution by using identical injectors in a Xfire setup. Once you do this, you'll realize how much quieter and smoother the motor will run. As you get beyond 270hp or so, you'll need to invest in larger injectors anyway.