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Old 06-09-2006, 03:37 AM   #1
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Blue smoke, start up (replaced valve stem seals)

Just got done replacing my valve stem seals and I still habe blue smoke on start up. Also I have it now if I rev it up at a stop light a good portion comes out, also smokes at take off. Something I'm curious of, when I did my valve stem seals, they were hardly there, almost all of them were completely gone. I was looking in my haynes manual the other day and noticed that the valve stems for both exhaust and intake have another seal that I don't have at all, I wonder if this could be the problem. Also i have coolant mixed in with my oil from some stupidity of mine. Gonna do oil change but maybe that's problem? I was hoping all my smoking would end after the valve stem seal replacement.
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Old 06-09-2006, 07:21 AM   #2
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What seals did you use? (part #s, construction style details, etc. .... not just "stock" or the like)
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Old 06-09-2006, 10:16 AM   #3
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I don't know the part number as I went to a machine shop to get them. Description would be: very small, circumfrence barely larger than the valve stem. A centimeter or so thick, and completely circular.

http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductD...pe=108&ptset=A

they look like those, but again, I don't know the part number. Again these seals are all that are on my valve stem, besides spring and what not.
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Old 06-09-2006, 09:54 PM   #4
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Well if the circumference is slightly larger than the valve stem then that's your problem. It should be tight around the valve stem so it wipes the oil off the valve as it opens. Did you use the little clear plastic cover that goes over the valve stem tips to protect the new seals as you installed them? If not, then you tore all the seals and destroyed them before you even got them on.
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Old 06-10-2006, 12:33 AM   #5
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Well, when I had my valve seals replaced a couple weeks ago for blue smoke on startup, it didnt help anything, it just made it smoke worse, now, my engine is in the process of being rebuilt, top to bottom.
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Old 06-10-2006, 12:59 AM   #6
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wow everyone hold up!!! i just did my valve seals and had exact same problem do not panic well kinda its nothing major. me and my dad replaced mine and hes a mechanic so it was done correctly or we thought. well afterwards it was good for a day then it smoked like you said on start up and when the throttle was goosed. well turned out they made a new seal for the exhaust which is just as big as the intake seal which they originally didnt sell us and when you put the little o ring rubber seals on make sure the spring goes on first then you push the spring down and put the seal on otherwise itll fall off when putting the spring on. ever since i love my car again no smoke what so ever anymore questions just ask cause we did the job twice.
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Old 06-10-2006, 02:57 PM   #7
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I HOPE YOU ALL CHECK WHAT I DID because i had opinions from mechanics that said it couldve been the rings after the seals were replaced and i was all down thinking i would have to rebuild or get a new motor but then i corrected the problem with the right parts and lots or spare time and it worked out
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Old 06-10-2006, 03:32 PM   #8
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To answer your question dialed_in, I didn't use any plastic thing on the valve stem before I slid them on, but they do fit nice and tight. I had a mechanic of 40 years that's been working on engines since he was 14 show me how to do my first few replacements and didn't mention anything about that. Course he works for ford.

Vipershark, I didn't comrpess the spring and valve before I put the seal on, I just completely took off the spring, slid the seal on, and then put the spring and what not back on. But what is this new seal you talk of for the exhaust?Aren't all the seals the same size? Because I just had a little baggy of them and they were all the same size. So could you show me a picture maybe or give me a website that sells them?
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Old 06-10-2006, 06:54 PM   #9
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Well that's your problem, right there. That's why I asked exactly what you used.

Those are just O-rings. They are mostly ineffective. All they do, is keep oil that gets on top of the retainer, from running down the valve stems. Then on top of that, you put them on wrong.

They're supposed to go down in the bottom of the retainer, under the keepers. You put the spring on and compress it, then the retainer, then that useless O-ring, then the keepers. If you put them on before you put the retainer on, then they are doing absolutely nothing except going for a ride.

Go back, and get these or these. Boht of them are the "positive" type, that clamp themselves in place around the guide and seal tight to the valve stem. You need 8 for the intakes (the main culprits) or a total of 16 to do all intakes and exhausts, so get however many sets or eaches it takes.
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Old 06-10-2006, 11:38 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sofakingdom
Well that's your problem, right there. That's why I asked exactly what you used.

Those are just O-rings. They are mostly ineffective. All they do, is keep oil that gets on top of the retainer, from running down the valve stems. Then on top of that, you put them on wrong.

They're supposed to go down in the bottom of the retainer, under the keepers. You put the spring on and compress it, then the retainer, then that useless O-ring, then the keepers. If you put them on before you put the retainer on, then they are doing absolutely nothing except going for a ride.

Go back, and get these or these. Boht of them are the "positive" type, that clamp themselves in place around the guide and seal tight to the valve stem. You need 8 for the intakes (the main culprits) or a total of 16 to do all intakes and exhausts, so get however many sets or eaches it takes.
I'm not sure I follow you on how I put the O-rings on wrong. But I am going to get those other seals and redo this. The way I put the O-rings on was, with the spring off, I pushed that o ring down to the second notch, why? I dunno. My teacher said it'd adjust itself, i think he confused it with that other seal you showed me. So let me get this right, starting with nothing on the valve stem. I place the spring, compress it, place that other seal where? I'm not sure where now. Then, with that in place, spring still compressed, I place the O-ring where? Again unsure now. And then decompress the spring, place the retainer and that cup thing it sets on, compress, and place keepers. So all I don't know is where to put those other seals, once I know, I might get to re-doing this.. or it's gonna hafta wait. Something I wonder is why those other seals were missing in the first place.
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Old 06-11-2006, 01:07 AM   #11
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ok sorry for being confusing....

ok well start by removing the spring. once the spring is off on the intake valves removes the big seal that sits on the bottom of the valve and remove the little o ring up on top. now use the supplied plastic covers and cover the valve stem and slide the new intake valve seal the big thick rubber one all the way down to the bottom until its locked in place. now put the spring back on and put tension on it like you were putting the keepers in but first put in the o ring on the second groove down and make sure its in right now put the keepers in for the spring.

for the exhaust part now. remove the spring. this one if not done should only have the little o ring on it like mine did and no large seal, remove that. there should be big umbrella seals that you can purchase like the big intake ones but plastic like. once again use the little plastic sleeve so nothing is damaged when putting the larger seal on. now do as the intake valve with the spring the o ring then keepers.

and the first time i did the seals i did the intake large and o rings and just o rings on exhaust cause thats all that was on it and that we got from the parts store. then we put the o rings on before the springs and when we took the springs off the second time the o rings were just floating around on the valve stem not even in any groove. i learned my lesson and i think those little o rings are just rediculous in the first place doesnt look like they do **** i think with just the large seals on both itd be fine but the small probably do help stupid gm

just be carefull double check all work and read carefully anymore questions just ask
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Old 06-11-2006, 10:41 AM   #12
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There are a number of "styles" of seals, each of which go in different places and do different things.

The ones I posted the links to, are what is called "positive" seals. They are not stock on motors before some time in the late 80s. So they're not necessarily "missing", your car may simply not have come with them. They have a metal band around them that holds them firmly to the valve guide; and a smaller metal band or wire that holds them tightly around the valve stem. The valve slides through them, but is completely sealed by the top wire. These REALLY WORK. There's no way any appreciable amount of oil can get past them.

Another type is called "umbrella" seals. The correct way to put those on, is the way you did your O-rings; you compress the spring, put the seal on, then the retainer, then the locks. Those fit tight to the valve stem and ride up and down along with the valve, and DO NOT fit tight to the guide; but rather, act like an umbrella hanging over the top of the guide, to keep oil from running down the stem. They're better than O-rings, but far less effective than the "positive" type.

The O-rings go down in the bottom of the retainer, and keep any oil that gets on top of the retainer from running down the valve stem. They are mostly ineffective, especially with worn guides. They work OK with new guides but that's about it.... it's pointless to replace them on an old motor, they won't accomplish anything. With those, you compress the spring, then put the retainer on, THEN put the O-ring on in the lower groove of the valve stem, put the keepers on in the upper groove, and de-compress the spring. The O-ring fits tight between the inside dia of the retainer and the valves stem.

Vipershark's instructions are correct for the "positive" seals, but wrong for the O-rings. As said, you put the spring on, compress it, then the retainer, THEN THE O-RING IN THE 2ND GROOVE, then the keepers. NOT in the order of spring, O-ring, retainer, keepers. If you put the O-ring on before the retainer, then the retainer just knocks the O-ring out of its groove, and it's even less effective than it would have been, because it's not jammed inside the retainer like it's supposed to be. Instead it ends up just riding up and down on the valve stem below the retainer, doing nothing.

I'd suggest de-burring the keeper grooves on the valve stem though, because the burrs WILL tear up the new seals; just use some 400 or 600 grit sandpaper to clean up the grooves.

You can use "positive" seals on the exhaust valves, even though they're only listed for the intakes; but they may not last very long. Sometimes they will, sometimes not. The exhaust valve guide can get VERY VERY HOT, and rapidly deteriorate the seals. But it doesn't much matter, the smoking is mostly caused by the intake ones anyway.

Don't bother with the O-rings if you use positive seals. Just leave them off. They add nothing whatsoever of value.
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Old 06-11-2006, 03:36 PM   #13
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ok sorry but yes i had the positive types with the metal wires around it for the intake seals and for the exhaust i have an 89 with the center bolt heads and i know the seals werent missing but i meant to say gm didnt put them on originally in my car. but i purchased some of those positive ones for the exhaust too that were more of a harder plastic compound that was white/opaque in color. and sorry about being confusing but i put the spring and the retainer on together and compress that spring like that and then put the o ring seals on the i put the keepers in sorry i wasnt more clear but i took the spring and retainer off as one piece and put it back as one too. o and while you are in there pull your pushrods and clean them up from all the carbon build up makes a difference when you put them back in theyll slide back in. mine only had 50k miles on them and were packed with carbon on them and wouldnt slide easily. o and sorry if i mixed up some terms above but i think i got them right im not pro yet working my way there...
----------
and like sofakingdom said they do sell the exhaust positive seals but they werent listed for my car and we found them on the second trial which wouldve helped the first time a lot

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Old 06-12-2006, 10:47 AM   #14
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Awesome, thanks alot guys, I'm gonna be ordering those other seals later today, I would now but I'm running late for work. Quick question, what seals should I use for the exhaust? I'd be fine with using those positive ones you sent me a link to but not if I'll hafta do this again.
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Old 06-12-2006, 01:08 PM   #15
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most likely if you get the big exhaust seals and do it again you shouldnt need to change them for either a really long time or ever
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Old 06-12-2006, 07:34 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sofakingdom
Well that's your problem, right there. That's why I asked exactly what you used.

Those are just O-rings. They are mostly ineffective. All they do, is keep oil that gets on top of the retainer, from running down the valve stems. Then on top of that, you put them on wrong.

They're supposed to go down in the bottom of the retainer, under the keepers. You put the spring on and compress it, then the retainer, then that useless O-ring, then the keepers. If you put them on before you put the retainer on, then they are doing absolutely nothing except going for a ride.

Go back, and get these or these. Boht of them are the "positive" type, that clamp themselves in place around the guide and seal tight to the valve stem. You need 8 for the intakes (the main culprits) or a total of 16 to do all intakes and exhausts, so get however many sets or eaches it takes.

On the same site as the link you sent me, is there any quality difference between the fel pro seals and the AE Clevite ones? Im curious because the AE Clevite ones have sets of 16, all positive type ones, so they must last just as long on the exhaust side? Thanks for any input
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Old 06-12-2006, 07:48 PM   #17
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They are probably different materials. I've never used the Clevite ones, just seen them around.

You see them made out of Viton, neoprene, and nitrile rubber; and Teflon. The Teflon ones like these are all I ever use nowadays, but they require CONSIDERABLY more precision, and machining the heads to a non-stock guide diameter. But, they last virtually forever if properly installed, and they WORK.

But to just fix an annoying stock situation, the FelPro ones on the intake will kill at least 90% of the oil burning, and will last as long as the rest of the motor most likely. The umbrella type on the exhaust will stifle most of the rest. That combo is usually enough to get the job done.
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Old 06-12-2006, 09:15 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vipershark11
most likely if you get the big exhaust seals and do it again you shouldnt need to change them for either a really long time or ever
What do you mean by big exhuast seals? Do you have a part number or a link? Im not sure what i should be getting now... I'm assuming that http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductD...pe=108&ptset=A is the one that I need for the exhaust, and I was planning on using http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductD...pe=108&ptset=A for the intakes.

But I found this one http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductD...pe=108&ptset=A

and this one http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductD...pe=108&ptset=A

I'm curious if these would be good to use on both intake and exhaust, and what's the difference between "integral cast guides" and "repair guides". That seems to be the only difference between those 2 last parts.

Last edited by puffcat; 06-12-2006 at 09:39 PM.
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Old 06-12-2006, 10:03 PM   #19
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i dont know which exhaust seals i used i think my dad ordered felpros from the part store so i have no number but i do know they are clearish white and like a plastic type material unlike the intake seals
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