Search



Go Back   Third Generation F-Body Message Boards > Tech Boards > Tech / General Engine
Register Forgot Password?

Tech / General Engine Is your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
Sponsored by Weld Racing
Click Here

Welcome to ThirdGen.org!
Welcome to ThirdGen.org.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, join the ThirdGen.org community today!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-15-2007, 10:26 AM   #1
Supreme Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Winston salem, NC
Posts: 2,850
Car: 1987 1SICIROC.....1999 TransAm
Engine: 385 HSR.....LS1
Transmission: 700R4 with Midwest 3400 2.4str...M6
Axle/Gears: SLP Zexel Posi unit 3.42's...3.73's

Classifieds Rating: (4)

Distributor wont go down all the way?..why?

Ok,,,,I went to test fit the dizzy lastnight and found out the MF'er wont go down all the way.....its about 1/2in or more from being seated flat on the intake...Im sure I have it seated in the notch on the oil pump shaft cause I can feel it seat on there.

Heres what I got.....a brand new MSD billit distributor..correct number for HEI
and a mellings oil pump...

the oil pan is on and the intake in down and sealed....I measured from the top of the oil pump shaft to the intake and then measure the bottom of the dizzy and its differrent by the amount Im off...

someone told me the oil pump shaft may not be seated all the way...thus keeping the dizzy from seating right...get a long screw driver and to try tapping it with a hammer

how can I check to make sure its seated? do I have to take oil pan off AGAIN!?? the motor is on an engine stand and not in the car yet.


are there different size oil pump shafts? could I have the wrong one?

I swear! this is motor is becoming a bigger nightmare by the day...I cant wait to get this thing finished.
__________________
1987 White IROC-Z/T's
auto 3.42's SLP Zexel
10:70 scr 8:9 dcr Retro 4bolt 385 MAF Stroker!
StealthRam, AFR Eliminator 195's, 7cc KB flat tops, 226/232 559/565 custom Cam w/1.6 promags, ALL CC retro Valvetrain, 58mmTB, 30lb SVO's, Digi6 box, ALL MSD ignition, 3400 stall, 1 3/4 Hooker SuperComps coated, 3"ORY, Wide open Borla, !CAT,!AC, KYB AGX's, MAC SFC's, BBK Underdrives, LS1 DS, BMR relo brackets, BMR LCA's, BMR adj TA, Spohn adj PHB...100 NX Wet Kit with ALL the options
**3411lbs with driver 1/4 tank** no bottle
Wishmaster's87IROC is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2007, 10:32 AM   #2
Moderator
 
AlkyIROC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: 51N 114W, 3500'
Posts: 15,502
Car: 87 IROC L98
Engine: 588 Alcohol BBC
Transmission: Powerglide
Axle/Gears: Ford 9"/31 spline spool/4.86

Classifieds Rating: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster's87IROC View Post
someone told me the oil pump shaft may not be seated all the way...thus keeping the dizzy from seating right...get a long screw driver and to try tapping it with a hammer
Take the long screwdriver and "turn" the oil pump shaft until it lines up with the slot on the bottom of the distributor.
__________________
Hardtail Racing
All engine, no power adders! Bests: 9.029@150.45 (at altitude)
Theoretical sea level performance 8.623@157.05
AlkyIROC is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2007, 11:11 AM   #3
Supreme Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Winston salem, NC
Posts: 2,850
Car: 1987 1SICIROC.....1999 TransAm
Engine: 385 HSR.....LS1
Transmission: 700R4 with Midwest 3400 2.4str...M6
Axle/Gears: SLP Zexel Posi unit 3.42's...3.73's

Classifieds Rating: (4)

Ive done that!...and it still too tall
could the shaft not be down all the way into the pump?
Wishmaster's87IROC is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2007, 11:22 AM   #4
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Other side of the paper fence
Posts: 10,197
Car: Race car
Engine: Internal Combustion
Transmission: Static

Classifieds Rating: (1)
Possibly. Is it the all metal shaft, meaning not the stupid nylon retainer at the bottom?
Try turning the oil shaft and tap the end of the screwdriver. It takes a little bit of effort to get the metal shaft to lock into the oil pump all the way. I dont think thats going to be 1/2" though, something less than that.
madmax is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2007, 11:29 AM   #5
Supreme Member
 
Sonix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 10,763
Car: 1982 Trans-Am
Engine: 355 w/ ported 416s
Transmission: T10, hurst shifter
Axle/Gears: 10 bolt, true-trac, 3.73

Classifieds Rating: (1)
I had pretty much everything go wrong on my build, but I sure didn't see anything like that.
My oil pump drive just dropped into the oil pump quite easily. Try using a magnet and lifting up on the oil pump drive shaft, if you can, pick it up and look at it, see if theres anything suspicious, then drop it back down and check it out.
I'm pretty sure there's only one size length of distributor, so intake manifold height (can only realistically account for ~1/8" or so...), or oil pump is it.

Are you SURE the oil pump flat blade is engaged? I'm thinking maybe it's the cam gear that's engaging and stopping you? Maybe the dist gear is on upside down? (This is pretty far fetched, I don't even think this is possible, just tossing out things to look for...)
Sonix is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2007, 11:49 AM   #6
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Victoria, Texas
Posts: 190
Car: 90 RS
Engine: 383
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3:23

Classifieds Rating: (0)

The oil pump drive shaft is not engaging the slot at the end if the distributor. If it wont go in all the way pull the distributor out about an inch and turn the rotor about 1/8th of a turn. Then drop it back down, it should fit after a few attempts.
__________________
'90 RS, Accel gen7 DFI, sub-frame connectors (weld on), Flowtec headers (no air), Zexel Torsen Posi, 3:23 Gear Set, Energy Suspension Bushings (Full set), AN 8 fuel lines, 02 camaro rear disk, AFR 195 heads, 383 CID, Crane 222/230, Victor style Intake, MSD 6AL, ETC.. Etc...
MightyMouse is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2007, 12:11 PM   #7
Supreme Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Winston salem, NC
Posts: 2,850
Car: 1987 1SICIROC.....1999 TransAm
Engine: 385 HSR.....LS1
Transmission: 700R4 with Midwest 3400 2.4str...M6
Axle/Gears: SLP Zexel Posi unit 3.42's...3.73's

Classifieds Rating: (4)

is the end of the Mellings shaft and the bottom of the MSD distributor a different shape? not allowing for the 2 to join properly?
Wishmaster's87IROC is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2007, 12:21 PM   #8
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Victoria, Texas
Posts: 190
Car: 90 RS
Engine: 383
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3:23

Classifieds Rating: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster's87IROC View Post
is the end of the Mellings shaft and the bottom of the MSD distributor a different shape? not allowing for the 2 to join properly?
I am not sure but you can look at them and ditermine if they are the same shape.
MightyMouse is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2007, 01:08 PM   #9
Supreme Member
 
Sonix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 10,763
Car: 1982 Trans-Am
Engine: 355 w/ ported 416s
Transmission: T10, hurst shifter
Axle/Gears: 10 bolt, true-trac, 3.73

Classifieds Rating: (1)
Yea, you can remove the drive shaft with the magnet like I said, then make sure they will 'jive' in your hands, above the engine while you can watch it.

They're both meant for an SBC application, so they should fit fine. I mean, a burr on the shaft could be stopping it, and that might explain it.
Sonix is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2007, 01:47 PM   #10
Supreme Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,125
Car: 88' IROCZ
Engine: 388 TPI Motown 350 Race block
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 2.77

Classifieds Rating: (0)

Send a message via AIM to rgarcia63 Send a message via Yahoo to rgarcia63
With the Dizzy that high of the intake, I don't believe it's engaging the cam gear. When you turn the crank does the Dizzy turn at all?
Some Dizzys do need shims (my Proform, but 0.5" is too much.)
Pictures would be nice.
rgarcia63 is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2007, 01:49 PM   #11
Supreme Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Winston salem, NC
Posts: 2,850
Car: 1987 1SICIROC.....1999 TransAm
Engine: 385 HSR.....LS1
Transmission: 700R4 with Midwest 3400 2.4str...M6
Axle/Gears: SLP Zexel Posi unit 3.42's...3.73's

Classifieds Rating: (4)

well let me go find a magnet that I can stick that far down in there so I can get it out ....and I'll let you guys know what I come up with when I get home...Im at work right now...

thanks for the ideas...
----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgarcia63 View Post
With the Dizzy that high of the intake, I don't believe it's engaging the cam gear. When you turn the crank does the Dizzy turn at all?
Some Dizzys do need shims (my Proform, but 0.5" is too much.)
Pictures would be nice.

I cant get any pictures...the intake is on and the oil pan is on....alls I can do is look down the dizzy hole....when I get home I'll stick it back in there and turn the crank and see if the dizzy turns also....

its a SBC gear on the end of the dizzy, right? and the cam should have the correct gear too?

Last edited by Wishmaster's87IROC; 01-15-2007 at 01:52 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Wishmaster's87IROC is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2007, 01:52 PM   #12
Moderator
 
Apeiron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Rio Oro de Santa Ana, San Jose, Costa Rica
Posts: 20,979
Car: 1984 Z28 Hardtop / 1988 IROC T-top
Engine: 383 Carb / 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60 / T-5
Axle/Gears: 3.54 Dana 44 / 3.08 10 bolt

Classifieds Rating: (0)

Don't bother, the collar on the shaft won't let it come out through the top.
Apeiron is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2007, 01:59 PM   #13
Supreme Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Macedonia ,OH
Posts: 3,968
Car: Formula
Engine: 6.0 LSX
Transmission: 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 9 Bolt 3:27

Classifieds Rating: (8)

Send a message via AIM to Mkos1980
Its not seating on the oil pump shaft. Turn a tad and slide down on the cam gear. THEN it should slide even more to the end. I hope you are feeling both phases and not just the initial slide on the cam gear.
Mkos1980 is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2007, 02:13 PM   #14
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 84

Classifieds Rating: (0)
I guess on the upside the engine being out makes a huge difference if you need to take the pan off . But it really does sound like the Dist. gear is not seating into the cam gear. The shafts will engage but you will have that 1/2 space if the gears don't mesh. I would lube the dist gear set it back in and raise it in and out and turn it about 1/8 turn each time until it seats. Keep in mind if your 180 degrees out the rotor cap will be facing number 8 cylinder. I'm guessing you have #1 on TDC when putting the Dist in?
Slayre is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2007, 02:53 PM   #15
Supreme Member
 
Gumby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: NWOhioToledoArea
Posts: 7,846
Car: 86-FireBird
Engine: -MPFI
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 3:42

Classifieds Rating: (0)

I just went through all this. I sent my dizzy off to a guy in Nevada and had it pro built. ANd with the new end housing/bearings its a new tight fit that took me forever to get in right. Don't worry about getting it back how it came out. I took pics and made marks but that wasn't helpful...... Just keep pulling it up and trying different close to original spot where it came out. Thats when I finally had luck, when I stopped trying to get it right back in the same way it came out. Ya got plenty of twist room to adjust timing, twist n stab till it seats.
Gumby is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2007, 07:28 PM   #16
Supreme Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,974
Car: 91 RS
Engine: 350 vortec
Transmission: T-5
Axle/Gears: not the best not the worst

Classifieds Rating: (0)
might sound stupid but make sure the gear on the dist. is on correctly. seen that one once dont think that it cant happen
SpitotRs305 is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2007, 09:01 PM   #17
Moderator
 
Vader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 17,912

Classifieds Rating: (0)

There is a remote possibility that the distributor is designed for a tall deck block (like an HT383 or tall deck BBC) and got tossed in the wrong box or given the werong part number. The easy way to check that is to compare the length under the flange to your old distributor.

There is another very remote possibility that the distributor has the wrong gear on it (reverse rotation cam - YES, Mildred, they are different, like a Comp 411 versus a Comp 413).

Most likely it has more to do with the cam/oil pump drive engagement, but strange things can happen.

Last edited by Vader; 01-15-2007 at 09:04 PM.
Vader is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2007, 09:05 PM   #18
Supreme Member
 
1989GTATransAm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Cypress, California
Posts: 6,776
Car: 1989 GTA
Engine: 369 TPI
Transmission: 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.70 Nine Bolt

Classifieds Rating: (3)

You might have some big block parts in there. Hopefully it is just a tight installation as was suggested.
1989GTATransAm is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2007, 09:06 PM   #19
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 84

Classifieds Rating: (0)
I am interested in the outcome. Its one of those things that will probably make you go Hmmm.
Slayre is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2007, 09:40 PM   #20
Moderator
 
AlkyIROC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: 51N 114W, 3500'
Posts: 15,502
Car: 87 IROC L98
Engine: 588 Alcohol BBC
Transmission: Powerglide
Axle/Gears: Ford 9"/31 spline spool/4.86

Classifieds Rating: (0)

SBC and BBC distributors are the same length unless you have a tall deck BBC distributor. Even then, aftermarket intakes have a recessed distributor hole to allow the use of a normal distributor on a tall deck block.

Personally, I think it's just an alignment problem. When you drop the distributor in, the shaft will turn as it goes past the cam gear. The oil pump shaft needs to be turned so that it lines up with the shaft after it's turned and gone through the cam gear. Sometimes the oil pump shaft needs to be turned just a little bit.

Can you stick a flat tip screwdriver in and turn the oil pump shaft at all? The screwdriver doesn't need to be very long. 6-8" is long enough to reach the oil pump shaft.

I use a dummy distributor I made up to turn the shaft and allows me to prime the engine. Take an old distributor. Pull the gear off and pull the shaft out. Once the shaft is out, cut the top of the housing off. Reinsert the shaft and gear and put a stop collar around the top of the shaft. Grind the teeth off the gear so it doesn't mesh with the cam gear. This is the best tooth for priming the engine. The old distributor housing easily lines up with the oil pump shaft and also seals off the cam bearing oil holes so that the cam bearings can also be prelubed. You need a 1/2" drill to turn the shaft and prime the engine.
AlkyIROC is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2007, 09:45 PM   #21
Supreme Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,125
Car: 88' IROCZ
Engine: 388 TPI Motown 350 Race block
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 2.77

Classifieds Rating: (0)

Send a message via AIM to rgarcia63 Send a message via Yahoo to rgarcia63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster's87IROC View Post
well let me go find a magnet that I can stick that far down in there so I can get it out ....and I'll let you guys know what I come up with when I get home...Im at work right now...

thanks for the ideas...
----------



I cant get any pictures...the intake is on and the oil pan is on....alls I can do is look down the dizzy hole....when I get home I'll stick it back in there and turn the crank and see if the dizzy turns also....

its a SBC gear on the end of the dizzy, right? and the cam should have the correct gear too?
The suggestion that the Dizzy might be for a taller deck is a good one.

The reason I asked if it will turn with the crank is because I don't bother trying to align the pump slot, I just drop it in, push down on it while turning the crank clockwise (extra pair of hands) once it's in I continue to turn it until the rotor is pointing where I want it, then pull it out and bring #1 to TDC on compression stroke and drop it back in.
rgarcia63 is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2007, 10:44 PM   #22
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 830
Car: 87 Camaro IROC
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 700r4
Axle/Gears: 3.23

Classifieds Rating: (1)
why not remove the cam gear and try to fit it together then? if it goes then mayb re-install the cam gear and remove the oil drive pin and see if it goes down. thatll limit your options.
__________________

Quote "i dont play with engines with less than 8 cylinders"
Gramps is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2007, 12:04 AM   #23
Moderator
 
AlkyIROC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: 51N 114W, 3500'
Posts: 15,502
Car: 87 IROC L98
Engine: 588 Alcohol BBC
Transmission: Powerglide
Axle/Gears: Ford 9"/31 spline spool/4.86

Classifieds Rating: (0)

The bottom of the cam gear goes over the oil pump drive. Without the cam gear, there will be no clearance issues unless there's some serious misalignment problems between the intake and the block.

You can't remove the oil pump shaft. It doesn't come out the top. You need to remove the oil pump and take it out the bottom.
AlkyIROC is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2007, 08:25 AM   #24
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 14,418
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check

Classifieds Rating: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster's87IROC View Post
are there different size oil pump shafts? could I have the wrong one?
A BBC drive rod is about 1/2" longer then a SBC rod.

RBob.
RBob is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2007, 09:24 AM   #25
Supreme Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Winston salem, NC
Posts: 2,850
Car: 1987 1SICIROC.....1999 TransAm
Engine: 385 HSR.....LS1
Transmission: 700R4 with Midwest 3400 2.4str...M6
Axle/Gears: SLP Zexel Posi unit 3.42's...3.73's

Classifieds Rating: (4)

sorry guys for getting back to this so late...

I got it in!....it was almost a combo of all the above....well except for having the wrong parts. It was just a very tight fit and ther was a slight burr that I had to get rid of....and I did a search...and also found that I could take some really fine sand paper and smooth out the dizzy shaft...

all in all it was a nightmare but it is in..sometime I feel so stupid but oh well!

thanks for all the ideas....I know I can always count on you guys to come up with solutions.

we'll get this motor together in no time..


heres where Im at


Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by five7kid; 01-16-2007 at 01:58 PM.
Wishmaster's87IROC is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2007, 11:59 AM   #26
Supreme Member
 
brutalform's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,387

Classifieds Rating: (0)
I would like to mention that, if you are running a Comp Cam, that the MSD gears and Comp Cams gears are not a match made in heaven. I do not know if you are using a Comp Cam, but I was on the phone with Comp tech, and he strongly recommended changing the gear on my MSD distributor. They encountered many problems with MSD gears.

Also, to save alot of time, nextime you have to reinstall the distributor, once the gears do engage, just hold the housing, and have a friend "bump" the engine over, and it will plop right in. No need to try to align everything by hand.
brutalform is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2007, 12:07 PM   #27
Senior Member
 
1986Z28OWNER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 857
Car: 1986 Z-28
Engine: Twin Turbo Dry sump 400ci SBC
Transmission: Trans Specialties Reid case Glide
Axle/Gears: 3.25 Moser 9"

Classifieds Rating: (1)
Send a message via AIM to 1986Z28OWNER Send a message via MSN to 1986Z28OWNER Send a message via Yahoo to 1986Z28OWNER Send a message via Skype™ to 1986Z28OWNER
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader View Post
There is a remote possibility that the distributor is designed for a tall deck block (like an HT383 or tall deck BBC) and got tossed in the wrong box or given the werong part number. The easy way to check that is to compare the length under the flange to your old distributor.

There is another very remote possibility that the distributor has the wrong gear on it (reverse rotation cam - YES, Mildred, they are different, like a Comp 411 versus a Comp 413).

Most likely it has more to do with the cam/oil pump drive engagement, but strange things can happen.
possibly

you got a stock dizzy around to compare it?
1986Z28OWNER is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2007, 07:31 PM   #28
Moderator
 
AlkyIROC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: 51N 114W, 3500'
Posts: 15,502
Car: 87 IROC L98
Engine: 588 Alcohol BBC
Transmission: Powerglide
Axle/Gears: Ford 9"/31 spline spool/4.86

Classifieds Rating: (0)

I had to change my MSD distributor gear. I needed to put on a bronze gear required for a billet cam.
AlkyIROC is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2007, 07:31 PM
ThirdGen
1992 Camaro




Paid Advertisement


Reply

Go Back   Third Generation F-Body Message Boards > Tech Boards > Tech / General Engine

Tags
350, bbc, bronze, cam, distributor, distrubuter, doen, doesnt, drop, dummy, gear, mesh, msd, sbc, tall, wont
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 


1982 Camaro '82 || 1983 Camaro '83 || 1984 Camaro '84 || 1985 Camaro '85 || 1986 Camaro '86 || 1987 Camaro '87 || 1988 Camaro '88 || 1989 Camaro '89 || 1990 Camaro '90 || 1991 Camaro '91 || 1992 Camaro '92


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All content copyright 1997 - 2014 ThirdGen.org. All rights reserved. No part of this website may be reproduced without the expressed, documented, and written consent of ThirdGen.org's Administrators.

Emails & Contact Details