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Old 06-04-2009, 01:11 PM   #1
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Update on my rockers miss alignment probleme.

First I would like to apologize for my bad english.

I have probleme to get my rr's ( trick flow 1:6 ) to align correct with my canfield heads.
( orgiginal thread http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/te...vavle-tip.html )

The rockers on some vavles isent centered properly over the valve tips. And I can also se this in the "wear mark" on the valvetips.
I will post some pictures that will show you what Im talking about.

Top view:
Here you can se the "v-shape" many rockers have. Is that "normal" to some extent?

Click the image to open in full size.

Here is the "wear-mark" on 2 vavles, one is ok the other bad, due to a miss align rocker.
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.

On this picture you can clearly se that the intake valve (at the top ), is a bit "off-center" from the rocker stud. Is this normal on a csb head?
Click the image to open in full size.

On the last picture I took off the guideplate, and testet how far the rocker must twist, to algin "ok" on the valve tip. BUT as you can see, its impossible to get the rocker to algin 90 degrees, as that will make the pushrod rubb against the head.
Click the image to open in full size.

SO, this is my plan, please comment if im thinking right here.

I cut the guidplate, twist the rocker so the rocker tip is center on the vavletip. Then torque down the rocker stud.
This will make the rocker tip sit ok on the vavle tip, but it will NOT make my rocker 90 degree, but perhaps that is not so important?

Thanks for all the help.

Anders

Last edited by devilfish; 06-04-2009 at 01:14 PM.
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Old 06-04-2009, 01:23 PM   #2
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Re: Update on my rockers miss alignment probleme.

are you using self aligning rockers with the wrong setup? you did not give us the model number on them and im not bright enough to know. and are you using the correct length and type of pushrods?
what we need here is attila or one of other the brains here.
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Old 06-04-2009, 01:40 PM   #3
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Re: Update on my rockers miss alignment probleme.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony_cogliandro View Post
are you using self aligning rockers with the wrong setup? you did not give us the model number on them and im not bright enough to know. and are you using the correct length and type of pushrods?
what we need here is attila or one of other the brains here.
Sorry, heres some more info.

The rocker is not self aligning. And I use the hardened guideplats that came with the canfield heads.
I also used a adjustable pushrod to set my pushrod length when I changed to these heads last year.
The pushrods are also hardened pushrods.
To my untrained eye, the wear mark on the valvetips are "center", so that would indicate that the pushrod length is ok? Its just that on some vavles, the rocker angle is wrong, so perhaps only 30% of the actual tip on the rocker, touch the vavletip, the rest has "slided" off. ( If you understand what I mean ).
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Old 06-04-2009, 01:52 PM   #4
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Re: Update on my rockers miss alignment probleme.

Can you get a closeup of the alignment of the rocker tip on the intake valve? The very top picture, 3rd over from the left is the intake valve (#3 cylinder?) and it looks like its close enough from that view. The next picture looks like the #5 intake valve showing a bad pattern.
It almost looks like a problem with the angle of the rocker stud relative to the valve stem, not an alignment problem of the rocker itself although that last picture does not look too promising if that is where it needs to be so its centered. It doesnt have to be perfectly centered, but thats quite a bit it appears.
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Old 06-04-2009, 02:16 PM   #5
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Re: Update on my rockers miss alignment probleme.

Cylinder 1 unmodified guideplate.

Click the image to open in full size.

Cylinder 3 unmodified guideplate. ( picture lies here a bit, the rocker on the right is not that way off as it may seen )

Click the image to open in full size.

Cylinder 5 modified guideplate. I cut it in half. On those pictures I adjusted the guideplate/rockers to get the best possible alignment on the vavletip. I got 5mm between the push rod and the head on the intakevavle.

Click the image to open in full size.
Also cylinder 5
Click the image to open in full size.

The same trend can be seen on the other cylinderhead, the rockers on the intake valves is miss align. Worst is on cylinder 5 and 4.

Regards

Anders
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Old 06-04-2009, 04:07 PM   #6
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Re: Update on my rockers miss alignment probleme.

I have four comments so far. In no particular order, buy a set of Isky adjustable guide plates. The second valve tip that you thing is showing a problem, it isn't. What you see is the valve has been turning a little bit, but everything is okay with that particular valve/rocker/pushrod. Also, the intake ports on the canfield heads are a bit wider than stock, and the valve spacing has probably been improved as well. Do not modify the heads near the pushrods, you don't want to break through into the intake ports. Now, here's how to proceed: First, install the Isky adjustable guideplates, but do not tighten the rocker studs. Install them, but barely finger snug. Then add the rockers, and center them on the valves. If any pushrods are now touching the heads, stop. If your pushrods are larger than 5/16"-dia., you may need to drop back to a thick-wall 5/16. If they still touch the heads, you may need to grind, but if you break through, you'll mess up the intake port flow with any method of repair. Anyway, if you have the rockers centered over the valves, and the pushrods are not touching the heads, then snug the rocker studs. Now remove the heads without disturbing the rocker studs or guideplates, remove everything else from the heads, again without disturbing, then have the guideplates spot-welded. Then let the welds cool, then number stamp the guideplates and the heads so you never mix the plates up where they go. (you are keeping the rockers in order, right?)
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Old 06-04-2009, 05:33 PM   #7
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Re: Update on my rockers miss alignment probleme.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atilla the Fun View Post
I have four comments so far. In no particular order, buy a set of Isky adjustable guide plates. The second valve tip that you thing is showing a problem, it isn't. What you see is the valve has been turning a little bit, but everything is okay with that particular valve/rocker/pushrod. Also, the intake ports on the canfield heads are a bit wider than stock, and the valve spacing has probably been improved as well. Do not modify the heads near the pushrods, you don't want to break through into the intake ports. Now, here's how to proceed: First, install the Isky adjustable guideplates, but do not tighten the rocker studs. Install them, but barely finger snug. Then add the rockers, and center them on the valves. If any pushrods are now touching the heads, stop. If your pushrods are larger than 5/16"-dia., you may need to drop back to a thick-wall 5/16. If they still touch the heads, you may need to grind, but if you break through, you'll mess up the intake port flow with any method of repair. Anyway, if you have the rockers centered over the valves, and the pushrods are not touching the heads, then snug the rocker studs. Now remove the heads without disturbing the rocker studs or guideplates, remove everything else from the heads, again without disturbing, then have the guideplates spot-welded. Then let the welds cool, then number stamp the guideplates and the heads so you never mix the plates up where they go. (you are keeping the rockers in order, right?)
Thanks for the answer.
Some things I dident understand full ( lost in translation I guess ).

"...The second valve tip that you thing is showing a problem, it isn't."
Do you mean the vavle on pic 2, where I have printed "strange wearmark" ? I thought that wear mark indicated that the rocker whas not centered.

"..If your pushrods are larger than 5/16"-dia., you may need to drop back to a thick-wall 5/16."
I use 5/16 rods now. What do you mean by "drop back to a thick-wall 5/16." ?

What I have noticed is that no matter how much I can adjust the guideplate, I will never be abel to get the intake rockers on this head at a perfekt 90 degree angle. I can get the rockertip center on the valve tip, but it has to be a compromise. Is it uncommon that the rockers tend to have a slight v-shape/twist on aftermarket heads? The only way to achieve both center on the vavle tip AND at a perfekt 90 degree angle is to use some kind of "offset rockers".

About the guideplates. Instead of using the Isky adjustable guide plates, cant I cut my guideplates as I did on cylinder 5? Twist the plate, then torque down the rocker stud? Or is there a change the guide plate will get "loose" and start to twist if I not weld it?
The reason is that I havent found any company in Sweden that has the Isky adjustable guide plates in stock. And order from US will take up to 3 weeks.
I just whant to check the options. If you say that its a risk to cut my plates, and adjust it, I take your word for it. And order the plates.

Thanks so much for the help.

Anders
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Old 06-04-2009, 07:14 PM   #8
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Re: Update on my rockers miss alignment probleme.

If that wear mark on the #5 intake is only on one side of the valve like it looks like, there is an issue going on of some sort. I'm not so sure its alignment R-L looking down on the head as it is twisted counterclockwise looking at the side of the head from the exhaust side. If the valve was rotating (and it doesnt appear any are, not to my surprise) the wear pattern would show up around the entire diameter of the tip. Its only in one small area from intake-exhaust about... 3/16" wide so the valve isnt rotating and the wear pattern on one half of the valve is either really bad alignment making the tip only contact about ~1/2 the valve (doesnt look like it) or its on an angle relative to the tip. Stock rockers wont do this, the ball seat allows the rocker to align itself. With roller fulcrum rockers there is only one angle it can be at. Is there any wear pattern on the #5 rocker arm bolt?
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Old 06-05-2009, 01:57 AM   #9
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Re: Update on my rockers miss alignment probleme.

some canfield heads need offset rocker arms

14th bullet down

http://www.canfieldheads.com/23600_ins.htm

"Rocker arms on 23600 cylinder heads require 4 straight roller rockers and 4 .150" offset roller rockers per head. Canfield stocks roller rockers Part# CRA15015 (1.5 ratio) and # CRA15016 (1.6 ratio) Shaft Rockers are also available. # SRC-1 (1.5 ratio) and # SRC-2 (1.6 ratio)"

-

Eric
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Old 06-05-2009, 03:47 AM   #10
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Re: Update on my rockers miss alignment probleme.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madmax View Post
If that wear mark on the #5 intake is only on one side of the valve like it looks like, there is an issue going on of some sort. I'm not so sure its alignment R-L looking down on the head as it is twisted counterclockwise looking at the side of the head from the exhaust side. If the valve was rotating (and it doesnt appear any are, not to my surprise) the wear pattern would show up around the entire diameter of the tip. Its only in one small area from intake-exhaust about... 3/16" wide so the valve isnt rotating and the wear pattern on one half of the valve is either really bad alignment making the tip only contact about ~1/2 the valve (doesnt look like it) or its on an angle relative to the tip. Stock rockers wont do this, the ball seat allows the rocker to align itself. With roller fulcrum rockers there is only one angle it can be at. Is there any wear pattern on the #5 rocker arm bolt?
Yeah this issue puzzels me.
I got no wear pattern on any of the rocker arm bolts.

I can make the rocker tip sit center on the valvetip using my cut guideplate. But the Intake rocker will still be twisted slightly away from the intake port. Is that a probleme? Or is it ok to run like that?
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Old 06-05-2009, 03:51 AM   #11
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Re: Update on my rockers miss alignment probleme.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericjon262 View Post
some canfield heads need offset rocker arms

14th bullet down

http://www.canfieldheads.com/23600_ins.htm

"Rocker arms on 23600 cylinder heads require 4 straight roller rockers and 4 .150" offset roller rockers per head. Canfield stocks roller rockers Part# CRA15015 (1.5 ratio) and # CRA15016 (1.6 ratio) Shaft Rockers are also available. # SRC-1 (1.5 ratio) and # SRC-2 (1.6 ratio)"

-

Eric
I use the Canfield 23500 cylinder heads.

Rocker arms on 23500 cylinder heads use standard straight roller rockers. Canfield stocks roller rockers. Part #CRA00015 - (1.5 ratio) and #CRA00016 (1.6 ratio)

Anders
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Old 06-05-2009, 11:29 AM   #12
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Re: Update on my rockers miss alignment probleme.

please allow me to clarify a few points. In the second pic, the valve farthest right, I missed that until just now. I was referring to the third pic posted, which is the second pic of valve tips, in that pic lhe valve on the left has been rotating a very few degrees. Generally, engines built for performance get larger-diameter pushrods, such as 3/8", for reduced flex. It seems you didn't do this upgrade, and from the pics, It turns out to be okay. You may want offset rockers, but first is resolving the guideplate issue. I don't know, but I believe that had you looked at any pic of the design of the Isky adjustable guideplates, you would immediately see why they're nothing like trying to cut the ones you have, even if yours do have slotted holes. I'm not saying cutting yours is to be dismissed, but consider how you're gonna secure the 2 halves of each after cutting, positioning and tightening, because you will then have a gap maybe too big for welding. Find a pic of the Iskys, then go from there.
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Old 06-06-2009, 05:09 AM   #13
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Re: Update on my rockers miss alignment probleme.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atilla the Fun View Post
please allow me to clarify a few points. In the second pic, the valve farthest right, I missed that until just now. I was referring to the third pic posted, which is the second pic of valve tips, in that pic lhe valve on the left has been rotating a very few degrees. Generally, engines built for performance get larger-diameter pushrods, such as 3/8", for reduced flex. It seems you didn't do this upgrade, and from the pics, It turns out to be okay. You may want offset rockers, but first is resolving the guideplate issue. I don't know, but I believe that had you looked at any pic of the design of the Isky adjustable guideplates, you would immediately see why they're nothing like trying to cut the ones you have, even if yours do have slotted holes. I'm not saying cutting yours is to be dismissed, but consider how you're gonna secure the 2 halves of each after cutting, positioning and tightening, because you will then have a gap maybe too big for welding. Find a pic of the Iskys, then go from there.
Thanks

I called canfield yesterday, and they confirmed that the heads have a slight "off-set" intake vavle. And its normal that on those heads the intake rocker vill sit at a angle. They also recomend the 2-piece adjustable guideplates from isky. I will order them now.
The guideplate that comes with the canfield heads has a longer slot on the intake vavle, so I guess I need to grind the isky plates to match that..

Best regards

Anders
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