Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

oh it does start? well maybe your magnetic pickup is going then

gm muscle

Is there a way to check that without pulling the distributor? I believe that was the problem with WileECoyoteSr's '91. If it is going bad would it still have spark when it fails to start?

omnipotentgoku

iTrader: (1)

Wow, this is one of the first "NO START" threads with 2 different problems where resolutions were actually found. Wiley, please change the name of this thread to "Another WON'T START story. Help! *FIXED*" so that people can look to this thread knowing a solution was found.

- distributor
- Maf sensor and maf relays.

y84pauloflondon

Well, thats a good question! EVEN if you can't start the car, you SHOULD still have spark at the plugs while cranking the engine over. IF you do NOT have spark at ANY of the plugs...that would suggest to me to be a BAD distributor!

WileECoyoteSr

Actually, regards the no spark, I don't know if it was my bad luck, or just a bad day but when I started diagnosing my 91 Z's "failure to launch" first thing I did was pull a plug wire and look for a spark. Nothing there so I did the same with the coil, and nothing there. I replaced the coil and then the ignition module before trying the starting fluid the first time and it started. Moral to the story: I didn't have any spark and could have saved $125 on electrical parts not needed (new distributor came with a new ignition module). I can't tell you why trying the old "let's see if the plug wire arcs to the manifold" bit didn't work. But on my car it had nothing to do with the spark. It was the magnetic pickup on the distributor and yes, it still starts today after leaving it in the garage the last seven days due to monsoons here in Kansas.

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

test it with an ohm meter, should be between 500-1500 ohms

gm muscle

I'll try that. I've also read that to really know if an injector is good or not is to perform a balance test. The machine is something like $350, so I don't see that happening.

y84pauloflondon

Have you gone on to YOU TUBE and watched the video for:
HOW TO OHM CHECK A FUEL INJECTOR

If you have, and that test suggests that the injector are fine, I would move on....

Unless Chevy8588 can think of another way to test the injectors without that $350 machine!

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

ohm test and noid light, your only options, if the car runs from time to time, I would shy away from the injectors, ohm test them anyways, but i doubt this is your problem. like i told paul, there is a set of steps to take in diagnostics.

1. Pull codes
2. test objects that the codes refer to
3. determine weather or not the affected items will cause a no start condition
4. determine what could cause these codes if the affected items test good
5. Test ALL sensors with an ohm meter and make sure they are within spec
6. once engine runs inspect and hunt down any vacuum leaks, these are most likely the source of your MAF codes.

If your car runs sometimes I would stand to say that your magnetic pickup in the dizzy is probably your culprit. but I'm not there, I can only go off of what you tell me, you are my eyes and ears, and that will NEVER compare to me being there in person. I will help to the best of my limited abilities, I want to get through to people the same very valuable lesson paul learned, though it was not his fault, it was the dealer's. and that lesson is DON'T throw parts at it, DIAGNOSE the problem, you guys wanna know how to diagnose a certain sensor? you guys wanna know what the spec is? I have access to electronic copies of ALL factory service manuals dating back to 1982 (no I will not give anyone copies wayyyy too big) and am more than willing to share whatever it is you need, be it electrical diagrams, diagnostic info, recall information, TSB's or how to replace a part, I can even give you labor times to compare with a shop!

Just ask, when I am home I will take a few minutes of my time to find it for you guys :P

y84pauloflondon

At this point, I'm pretty much feel useless. Like Chevy8588 said, its hard to know what to do when your not there yourself......And right now, I'm out of ideas I Will keep an eye on the progress, IF can or feel like I can add an idea to help you guys, I will. But Chevy8588 IS Much better then I am! bye guys! sorry

rgarcia63

Wile,
I've read most of the thread hopelfully I didn't skip the important parts.

I don't think that priming the intake will force the pickup coil in the Dizzy to work although replacing it, or the Dizzy is not a bad idea since the car is 18 years old.
The one thing I would do now is reprogram the chip to disable VATS so that you can rule out an intermittent VATS module.
FYI:
The Oil Pressure switch supplies power in parallel with the fuel pump relay.
If the fuel pump relay goes out you'll experience an extended crank until the oil pressure closes the OPS, if the OPS doesn't close the pump will not run resulting in a no start. I think you've figured this out by now.

I believe you and the rest of the members that have replied have covered evrything. the only thing left is wiring and connections.

gm muscle

HOW TO OHM CHECK A FUEL INJECTOR

If you have, and that test suggests that the injector are fine, I would move on....

Unless Chevy8588 can think of another way to test the injectors without that $350 machine!

---I did check out that video on YOU TUBE, thanks!
I'm doing that today.

y84pauloflondon

That seems to make sence, but we are trying to get GM Muscle to basically to do a Flow Chart like process. IF we skip 1 thing at all, we could be chasing his problem for a LONG time!!!
We CAN NOT assume on anything, EVERYTHING must be looked at and tested before we can move on to the next.

Most likely his injectors are GOOD. TO ME testing the injectors is the next step in diagnosing his No Start, it must be done!!!...After this:
-Vacuum leaks
-ALL electrical connections under the hood
-Check and replace relays(Done, I believe)
-Test all related modules(Chevy8588 can tell/help on how to!)
-Scan Tool does not work/communicate with ECM....WHY? ---- THIS IS A RED FLAG!!!!
-AND SO ON........

GM MUSCLE, you need to test for what we ask for! IF you can't/don't know how/don't have the time! YOU NEED TO REPLY everything back too us ASAP.......DO NOT SKIP, AND DO NOT ASSUME!

THIS WILL TAKE TIME!!! But your WILL be running SOON AGAIN

Paul

y84pauloflondon

GM Muscle, have you looked at your fuses yet?

gm muscle

I did check fuses and they seem to be ok. Whenever I start checking things, the car senses I'm getting closer to finding the fault and it reluctantly starts. I drove it around for a while, parked it and four hours later it wouldn't start!

gm muscle

After this last no-start, I check the OHM resistance on the injectors. The following was the result:

1. =16.4 2. =16.3
3. =7.0 4. =7.2
5. =8.3 6. =11.5
7. =14.5 8.= 16.5
I used the lowest setting on the meter.

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

ok.... 3, 4, 5, and 6 need to be replaced, they are toast. they are most likely overloading the injector driver in the ECM, if i were you i would look into a full set of bosch type III from www.injectorconnection.com

rgarcia63

Bite the bullit and get the full set. The fuses are there to protect the ECM from current overload. I still don't think that's the problem.

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

my bad fuelinjectorconnection.com/

gm muscle

Thanks guys, I'm ordering a set tomorrow. Lets see if that fixes the prob.

gm muscle

One more thing. Does anyone know if there are any advantages with installing a set of 24 lb/hr injetors, as oppossed to the stock 22? Will that upset the ECM?

y84pauloflondon

Well first:
1) I thought the stock injectors were 18lbs.(NOT 100% sure!)
2) you should get a little more power, but thats what others have told me!!!
3) not sure what other asjustments would be needed with 24lb injectors???
4) I've been told by others that 26lbs is a good upgrade!

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

1) stock Lb9 5.0L injectors are 19Lb/hr, L98 5.7L are 22lb/hr
2) you will be dumping more fuel, so you will be running on the rich side

id go with stock 22

y84pauloflondon

GM MUSCLE, Go with 22lbs inj.....

Just A Thought For Fun............
If you were to put in a set of 24-26lbs injectors in, the car would be running RICH...But what if you were to adjust the TPS from (Stock 0.54v-0.56v) to a setting of lets say 0.40v-0.45v wouldn't you be tricking the ECM to cut back on the fuel and resetting the air/fuel ratio to a more normal fuel rate! But then at WOT be getting all the benifits of the bigger fuel injectors!

I'm thinking that when driving normally, the adjustment would make the car run fine (not too rich, not too lean). But at WOT the ECM would be dumping as much fuel as the injectors can allow. 24-26lbs injectors would be dumping more fuel in then compared to the stock 22lbs inj. And therefore recieve A LITTLE bit more HP.....just a thought!

LMAO....I can see alot of people out there calling me crazy or dumba** for this one!!!......Lets See?

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

sorry to SHI*T on your parade paul, but if you adjust the TPS down, at a WOT state the ECM wont seen a wide open throttle state, it would be 0.10v lower than what the ECM will want to see, and even still by burying the cylinders with fuel and not a proper airflow to go with it, what would be the benefit other than wasted gas and MAYBE a couple more ponies? as well as the system not running correctly anyways? if oder to take full advantage of bigger injectors, you need to upgrade the air comming in too, bigger cam, valve valve springs, port and polish, better exhaust, and a tune, other wise your just wasting more gas and possibly making the car run terrible :P

y84pauloflondon

Well, like I said, Just A thought!

y84pauloflondon

Hopefully the injectors will be the last of problems.... If not, I think WileE is sending over his ECM to GM Muscle to try out!

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

well thats not such a good idea, as far as I know, WileE's ECM is NOT compatible, for one just for even VATS to work the PROM would have to be changed, in 1990+ the ESC module was built into the ECM, AND on top of that all TPI went to speed density, GM muscle's car being MAF is NOT compatible, so dont even bother on that one guys! as for your comment paul, dont feel bad, you learn by asking, no one here will flame you for it, it was information that was given without full detail. I didnt learn what I know by osmosis, I have no official schooling, I've asked, I've watched, I've Tried, I've Failed, I've suceeded and I've read and absorbed all of the information from everything around me, thats how I know what methods work and dont work, and If im ever wrong, which I will be, it happens, correct me so that I may learn too

gm muscle

Just an update:
I ordered a set of 22 lb/hr injectors today. I'll be expecting them in 2-3 days, so it might be until the weekend before I install them. I've never done this before, but I do have both the GM shop manual and the Haynes manual.
Does anyone know approx how long the job will take? What are the pit falls, common probs, things to watch out for,etc.?
Thanks!

gm muscle

Also, does anyone recomend a thread to post some ideas and questions I have about upgrades? I'm assuming this thread should be kept as "Won't Start" thread.

I know what is said about assuming!!

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

its pretty straight forward, remove the plenum then the runners, then the fuel rail is right in your face, after you disconect the fuel rail, put new o-rings on the fittings going in, lubricate your injector o rings with clean engine oil too.

gm muscle

Sorry its been a while, but I just haven't had time to get the work done. My daily driver ('87 Monte SS) crapped out on me and spent most of the weekend getting it ready for the week.

gm muscle

I finally made some time and got to work on this project. Thanks chevy 8588 for the reference to injector connetion. Jon is a good guy with tons of tips, advice and makes his services available after the sell. Anyone reading this; you won't be dissapointed with him.

Just an update:
-I've removed all of the bolts (9 per side) holding the plenum to the runners and the
runners to the intake manifold.
-Set the Throttle body aside (linkages still attached)
-Disconnected and labled all connectors to sensors/injectors
-Anything else that will get in the way is been removed

I CAN'T SEPERATE THE DAMN PLENUM FROM THE RUNNERS OR FROM THE INTAKE!!!

I've thought about taking a gasket scraper and carefully prying my way between the runners and plenum/intake.
Does anyone have a better solution? This job is taking a lot longer than planned, because I haven't even gotten to the injectors!

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

That's because u missed some bolts. Each runner has I think two bolts on the intake manifold side. Also make sure u got the bottom bolts on the runners they can be difficult to see.

y84pauloflondon

Yes bolts were missed. Sorry i read this earlier, and had to go out b4 i could post.

y84pauloflondon

One of the bolts holding the runners to the manifold can only be removed by reaching under the plenum from the left side of the engine.

Passenger side MAY HAVE 10 BOLTS......Not 100% sure

y84pauloflondon

The 10th bolt is hidding behind one of the fuel injectors, You should be able to remove it now! Very carefully use your gasket scraper to brake the seal....

gm muscle

Yup, found it!
There was one bolt on the driver's side underneath the plenum. I saw the the passenger side one pretty easily. It still took a gasket scraper to seperate the plenum from the runners. Cleaning that up sure took a damn long time! I was told not to add any sealant to the gasket upon re-installing.

Is this accurate?

When I was removing the old gasket/adheasive, I noticed a lot of little pieces of gasket were going into the plenum and runners. I'm not sure what kind of approach I'll take to removing the ones from the intake. Definitely don't want a lot of crap going into the motor.

y84pauloflondon

If there's anything inside the upper plenum, use a vaccum to remove the pieces of gasket, or try using a Leaf Blower or a Hairdrier to blow out that crap from the UPPER PLENUM ONLY!!!! DO NOT DO THIS TO THE LOWER INTAKE!!!! You will blow it(bits of gasket) into the motor!

Once both sides of the runners are off, and you need to remove the OLD gasket off, use paper towels or CLEAN rags and stuff them TIGHT into the lower intake holes. This will prevent crap from falling into the motor, (Do not push the towel/rags in deep). Once ALL the old gasket is removed/scarped off, use a vaccum to remove/suck up All loose pieces of gasket that has fallen onto the towel/rags. Once that is done and everything is clean/picked up, pull out the towels/rags.

Paul.

daatv

I have been following this thread close due to the fact I have the same problem too the T
A few of the local F.T.G. members came over today to help resolve this and we found the same problems bad injectors

y84pauloflondon

Did you remember to replace with NEW O-Rings and lubicate them??? IMPORTANT!!!

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

the new injectors from FIC SHOULD come with them, the guys at FIC are pretty good about instructing that too.

on a side note. my 85 fired for the first time since i ripped her engine out of my 88 way back in june!
((little background)

took the 5,000 mile old GM service engine (l03 305) out of my old 88 decided to experiment with it, kept the swirl port heads. cammed it with a LT1 cam (.450 lift) converted to 1987 MAF TPI from an 87 trans am. running 19lb/hr multitec injectors off of the MPFI cadillac 298 from 1995. and topped it off with edelbrock TES headers. this is connected to a 700-R4 with an upgraded band apply servo, aluminum drive shaft, and a 3.42 differential. ))

fired and ran for 10 minutes (open headers, the experience was deafening), no engine codes AT ALL! (this was the very first attempt to start her since i started the project, i hate to brag but DAMN i'm good! lolz!!!) unfortuneatley she wont drive till next spring though f***king winter (too close to plate it, waste of money)

gm muscle

Did you remember to replace with NEW O-Rings and lubicate them??? IMPORTANT!!!


The injectors already come with the o-rings.

I've been trying to get to those damn injectors! I disconnected the fuel lines and the brackets that secure it to the block. I also remove the four bolts that secure the fuel rail to the intake...IT WON'T COME OUT!!
I certainly don't want to damage the fuel or components and complicate things further.

How does it come off? The GM manual doesn't say.

Just on a side note:
I tested the EGR Valve and it seems to be defective. It doesn't hold vacume and the diaphram sticks, then will sometimes close. Could a malfunctioning EGR cause a no-start?

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

a malfunctioning EGR valve will cause an unstable idle and in most cases casut a start then die out situation, as for the fuel rail. get a pry bar and gentily pry up on it

rgarcia63

I'd post some pictures so we can see what else might be holding it down.
Did you remove the OEM injectors retainer clips? I know someone will say they don't keep the injectors from coming out, but it may make you feel better if you can get the fuel rails of first.

The EGR valve on my 88' is a negative back pressure type.
If the valve won't hold vacuum with the engine off then carbon is preventing the pintle from completely seating this will require cleaning, including the manifold EGR exhaust port. Replace the valve if that doesn't work.
I don't think you have a Positive type (first character of part number should be "N", or "P".

VALVE OPERATION
The valve used on this system is a negative back pressure valve. It varies the amount of exhaust gas flow into the manifold depending on the manifold vacuum and variations in exhaust back pressure. The diaphragm on this valve has an internal vacuum bleed hole which is held closed by a small spring when there is no exhaust back pressure allowing the vacuum chamber to seal. The amount of vacuum to the valve is controlled by the ECM controlling solenoid. Engine vacuum opens the EGR valve against the pressure of a large spring. When the manifold vacuum combines with negative exhaust back pressure, the vacuum bleed hole opens breaking the vacuum seal and the EGR valve closes.

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

he also stated that the diaphram sticks

gm muscle

Hey there guys,

I went ahead and replaced the EGR valve. I gently pryed on the fuel rail and was able to remove rail and injectors. By the way, who ever designed the way the fuel lines bracket to the head needs a swift kick to the *****!
The be reasonable, I could have removed the water neck to facilitate things, but I didn't want an additional expense. Yeah, that bolt behind those fuel lines was not fun to remove or install!!

Anyway, I installed the injectors and put everything back together. Thankfully, the car fired up on the second try. I shut it down and started it several times, with success every time. I let it sit for a day and it still started on the first try!! Looks like problem solved!! (KEEP MY FINGERS CROSSED)

The car runs and idles smoothly.
I'd like to thank everyone who had a hand in helping me. All the suggestions and ideas led to me fixing my problem. Special thanks go out to T.W., Paul and Chevy8588; with out you guys, I wouldn't drive my baby. Not to mention, learning how to sue this valuable site!

Thanks a Million,
Jose

gm muscle

That's learning how to USE this site, sorry!

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

that GREAT news gm Muscle!! it makes me happy to know that your baby is running again! and i can officially say that this has got to be the FIRST thread i have seen where 3 totally non related problems have been brought up and all three have been solved! lol we're on a roll here! oh btw, i fully agree on GM's fuel line faux pas with the fuel lines, i had to bend new ones for mine and i swear to go the 3/8 one kinked EVERY SINGLE TIME i tried to bend it, WITH a bender! fringin 45* bend ... *grumbles*

y84pauloflondon

Hey GM Muscle(Jose) CONGRATS!!!!!!! I AGREE! WE ALL THOURGH HARD WORK AND COMMUIONICATION HAVE MADE THIS THREAD, ONE TO SHARE WITH OTHERS......

Special Thankx to WileECoyoteSr.(T.W.) for starting this thread with the intent of detailed info of "The problems", possible causes, the needed info, and how to repair...

This is probably the First COMPLETE Start-to-Finish Thread ever for TGO!

BTW......Just had the Wedding yesturday, it went great, and my GTA drove great for my father and mother to drive around in, as the wedding party was in a limo....