ATCFLYBOY02

iTrader: (1)

Just wondering, why do people install or build a 305 when the number of 350 blocks are in the bazillions??? (yes its my new number) There is no economical reason for it and damn sure no performance reason... just wondering, always kinda stumped me lol

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Denial, inexperience, stubbornness, delusions that their run of the mill, common 305 car will be worth huge money one day except for the awesome, well-built, well-swapped 350/383 that ends up in it and ruin its collector value. There's no shortage of bad reasons that don't make sense, but they are there.


These are, I think, the three big reasons:

People think their high mileage 87 IROCs with an LG4 and an automatic will be "rare and desirable" enough that just swapping to a decent 350 will ruin the eventual collector value.

People who dont realize how easy it is to find 350 blocks and how cheap they are.in the grand scheme of things involving an engine rebuild.

People think keeping the super common 305 makes them "different" and that "different" is good when it different means more money for less power.



There are smart ways to make power with 305s. None of them involve machinework to the block.

90 camaro cj

Cubic inch limitations in a racing class.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

THe number of people ACTUALLY racing in a rules-based CID-limited situation on this board is statistically indistinguishable from zero. A total non-issue.

The number of these cars that came with 305s that have ANY "numbers-matching" value potential WHATSOEVER is equally indistinguishable from zero. Unfortunately, they just ... don't. NOBODY CARES. Again, a total non-issue, if one strips away romantic fantasies based on other generations, cultures of the past, and technological eras, and replaces all that monkey-spank with cold reality based on a casual glance at a classifieds listing.

The REAL reason is usually a lack of willingness on the part of inexperienced owners to admit that what they have now is a total obsolete turd with zero potential for performance that would come even remotely close to matching even the most basic modern showroom chick-commuter-econobox level, coupled with a history in this hobby of the "bolt-on" fantasy. I.e., you take a "200 HP" motor, and you bolt on this shiny thing and that over-hyped generic thing and this other "everybody has one so it must be good" thing, and the boxes and magazine articles say this one "adds" 30 HP and that one "adds" 15 HP and the other "adds" 20, but NONE of it is compatible with the outdated Stone Age first-generation electronic control system on the engine, and then wonder why their new "265 HP" turd goes slower and uses twice as much fuel than their old "200 HP" one did.

If new hobbyists would pay less attention to re-duplicating their unfounded fantasies about what the 60s were like, and paid more to understanding how their cars actually WORK, they'd probably figure out REAL QUICK that within any given family of engines, the CHEAPEST POWER MONEY CAN BUY, is cubic inches. But if there's any one thing I've learned about how people learn, it is that the hardest person to teach is the one that thinks they already know something. I'll take a completely ignorant person with no preconceptions ANY DAY OF THE WEEK over someone with some smattering of "knowledge" that either doesn't realize how small their smattering is, or worst of all, is so convinced that they "know" something that's wrong, that they resist replacing it with THE TRUTH. Most of the people who stubbornly insist on building 305s in spite of all the undeniable proofs of how stupid it is, fall into one of those last 2 categories.

Sparkytfl

When I bought mine, the original 305 shortblock was toast from a fuel pump failure (gas-flooded oil). The seller included a low mile 305 block, which I'm sure he probably found for 20 bucks, that he had intended to install.
I had a 350 block lying around in my garage. I could have used that, but decided to take my time building it for later. I probably couldve found another 350 block to use too. But I used the 305 block just to get the car on the road quickly. I ended up later selling the car with that 305 still in it.

torque_is_good

hmm

lemme see

I already have 2 performance vehicles

the 305 was in running order so I did a full rebuild parts included for only $1300. I mean full rebuild with all the machine work, no mickey mouse job

I just wanted to get it completely redone and it's fine for around town driving and it has no issues breaking the speed limit on the highway

I also did a stock rebuild on the tranny and restored and painted the car.

To me, performance is more than stuffing as much HP as possble under the hood. I want to be able to also drive it, for it to be reliable and scream when I call for power. I have that with my 4th gen and 07 stang

So, I was quite comfortable rebuilding the 305 and slapping on headers and an open air element to clean it all up. I am not disappointed


butttttttttttt, if I didn't have 2 other performance vehicles, I probably would have repowered it but done it correctly, not the junkyard builds you hear about only to see posts of woe about a host of other issues.

FireDemonSiC

You forgot one:

- People who frown upon the idea of doing a super common 350 swap which every bubba and his uncle has under their hood.

I see this topic come up time and time again. And honestly, it pisses me off to no extent how the general consensus on the 305 is that it is a useless, junk motor. FYI, the limiting factor with a 305 is the bore size. The bore size itself does not restrict combustion, however the small size of the cylinders will shroud the valves generally if your try to go any bigger than 1.94. This is the reason people thoughtlessly ditch their 305s and toss in 350s like they're going out of style and is the exact reason I'd prefer to keep mine.

You CAN make power from a 305, and if you have skills it can even be done on the cheap. But people still seem to gawk at these motors just because of the cid and talk like 300 - 400HP on a naturally aspirated engine is something to laugh at. I've seen forced induction 305s pushing in excess of 600 - 700hp, and some even higher. It CAN be done, but not as easily as throwing together a 350 with a cam and a set of heads with valves bigger than john holmes' ***** and that's the reason people say no to 305s.

Me, I like the idea of the underdog. I like the idea of taking my 305 to the track and seeing the look on the guy's face who owns a 350 powered car when I take him off the line and at the finish. In the end, It's all about preference, but it can be done. The 305 is NOT a hopeless motor.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

There are a LOT more people with 305 Camaros than 350 Camaros. Have fun being "different".

It's actually exactly as easy as putting the same stuff on a 350, because everything that will bolt onto a 305 will also bolt onto a 350. It will cost more money to make that power with a 305, though, but if you like that sort of thing then carry on. It's not incorrect, it's just less return for your money and work. That's just a matter of how much your money and work is worth to you, you've determined a 305 is adequate and you're entitled to that.

I never said it was hopeless, but it's very stupid to spend money on machinework for 305's for several reasons. The best thing to do to a 305 is to throw a giant solid lifter cam in it and home port some stock 305 heads. But the moment you start boring and honing and decking your moneyower ratio starts declining rapidly unless you go with more cubic inches. I've seen 305's make massive power, but you sacrifice more streetability and more money to do it.

Have fun being the "underdog". The underdog usually loses. I have a 350, I'm an underdog next to 383s and LS1's. You can always be an underdog because there's always gonna be people faster than you. You could have a 454 big block in therea nd still be an underdog next to all the 548's and 572's etc big bocks out there.

If you want to be an "underdog", build a sleeper, not a small motor.

FireDemonSiC

There is nothing stupid to the person who finds meaning in it.

Having a 305 isn't different. Having a fast 305, that's what makes it worth it. Ill stick with my 310 and you can be content with your 355. Truth be told, your engine is quite possibly more common than mine.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Not in thirdgens! And it doesnt bother me that 350's are common. There are a million different ways to build engines. I could bolt rubber duckies on the intake manifold to make it different if I wanted. Fact is combos that work are common. Vortec headed 350s are common - because they are cheap and fast. No regrets with my allegedly common 350 here at all, especially since I have around 100 more hp at the flywheel than you do.

Also I edited my post, not for the purpose of tomfoolery but I just wanted to clarify my thoughts.

If you'd rather be different, build a destroked 400 or a 302, or a 327. I think those are pointless efforts also, but at least they have more power potential due to the 4 inch bore.

torque_is_good

if you are doing it for performance then go with the 350 block and rebuild that and go from there. Don't just slap in a junker

What about the v6's? If you just want the vehicle to drive then rebuild what you have.

No wiring worries, no programming, no new ECU's, no new fuel pumps or regulators, no new gauges and wiring

but, if you want performance, then the cost benefit is with the larger displacement

58mark

iTrader: (3)

people will rebuild an existing stock 305 for the same reason that people buy v6 cars. they want the car to look nice, be reliable, and they don't care about driving around town everywhere like their butt is on fire, or making up for shortcomings in their lives by having a ton of cubic inches. We call these people adults, and I admire them for that

87WS6

iTrader: (1)

I looked into it when I first got into the hobby and concluded that a 350 or 383 was just as easy to do with a greater return on investment performance wise. The block cost me less than it cost to do the machine work on my 305.

torque_is_good

I'd question that if you got a brand new block. Or, are you suggesting that a junker block with no machine work is a good thing to do?

I've yet to see any good deals on a completely machined and documented block. I agree if you are looking for performance and my post stated as such

I will use my $1300 total cost for rebuilding and that includes head work and all the parts vs finding a long block or junk engine and getting it in the same rebuilt state as my $1300 rebuild cost me.

Again, that means having to source an engine or short block or long block. Since you are looking for performance then you need new heads and induction.

boil out block and maganflux
deck
bore and hone
align hone
new cam bearings
new pistons and rings
resized the rods
new main and rod bearings
grind crank
new lifters
new pushrods
new cam
3 angle valve job with new guides, seals, valves, springs,retainers
new timing set
new oil pump
new gasket set

I don't think you can source the junker and then do all of that for $1300

but, if i was after performance, I would have sourced a short block and built the 350 from there

musclecar70sfan

iTrader: (1)

If only I had a nickel for every 305 debate thread....

torque_is_good

I guess I'm a juvenile because my stang and 4th gen are giggle cars

my 3rd gen i just wanted to do a resotration and didn't care about performance


seriously, I wouldn't say that it's called being an adult. SOme folks just view a bad engine as an expensive repair and just rebuild what they have never giving an upgrade a 2nd thought.

torque_is_good

between those and "what's the best exhaust" and we'd be rich

87WS6

iTrader: (1)

It's one of the Summit 383 blocks. I got it when they had a sale on those about a year or so ago at this point. Machine work looks to be pretty solid on it. Even if it wasn't, 350 blocks are cheap and rebuilding a 350 block with machine work isn't any worse than doing it with a 305. And you get more power for the same money.

Coyote850

iTrader: (1)

Exactly, my 305 runs great and I'm not racing anyone.

58mark

iTrader: (3)

maybe it was an unfair shot. I have plenty of friends that have powerful engines and that's fine for them. That part of the hobby just doesn't interest me.

It seems to be really hard for some people on the board to understand how somebody could NOT be interested in performance. Just live and let live. If somebody wants to keep a 305 or a v6 in their car, let them be, don't insult them and call them stupid

Shane B

I just dont understand why we have to have this 305vs 350 debate!!!! its not ur car its not ur money!!!!!get over it!!!!! Why cant we just enjoy the third gens as a whole no matter what is powering it!!!!!

torque_is_good

yup. I like performance but I also like the lines of some vehicles and the 3rd gen was one of those vehicles. But, to take a 3rd gen and do what needs to be done for it to handle and be as reliable as my 4th gen or stang, it just wans't worth it. Pay note to the words "be as reliable and be able to handle the power"

with me, it's not about stuffing in an engine and calling it done. I don't want the flexing, or leaving my tranny or rear end in my rear view mirror.

Since my base was an RS I wouldn't stuff in more power and keep drum rears so I needed to convert that as well. Why would I do all of that when for the same money i could grab a 98-2002 4th gen, change the cam and tune and kill anything I could try with a 3rd?

That's why i did a stock 305/ 700r4 rebuild and gutted/replaced the interior and painted the car.


My next project is going to be either a short bed full size or an S10 and I assure you, it won't be a 305 or a 350. My target is 11.80's NA and 11.20's on spray. It will be street legal and able to be driven.

musclecar70sfan

iTrader: (1)

shortyskater

Thank you!! People get all bent out of shape when someone doesn't agree or do what they think is right. I hate seeing threads (like this one), when all someone does is critize what someone else is doing. Let people be happy with what they have and their own ideas.

That being said, I just dont understand how TorqueIsGood can drive a camaro and ruststang.

ATCFLYBOY02

iTrader: (1)

I've found one really good use for a 305. We built a work bench and a "hot-rod table" and used the block and rods/pistons for the base and legs. It looked really cool... got better performance with the table than that poor ol' turd ever saw on the street.

I did this to see how many people actually use them OTHER than stock form... for a DD, they are OK at best, but hey, at least its a chevy lol

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

The problem is that people rarely just straight rebuild an engine. They always do "performance upgrades" while they're in it. At that point you're better off spending an extra $100 bucks and getting a 350 block, because you already have to buy new pistons and do machinework anyway.

My 350 only needed a hone and a .030 over bore, I think the machineshop bill was like $250 for that. Deck was still in spec and so were the mains. The blocks are cheap.

If youre budget-challenged and you just want to freshen up your existing engine - rebuild the 305.
-It will still be very expensive, but you wont need to re-tune the computer or upgrade anything. Just buy new pistons and gaskets and machinework and throw it back in.

If you're doing upgrades on a running - keep the 305.
-A big cam and some ported heads and they will go.

If you're doing a rebuild with big upgrades - 305 is a waste of time.
-no sense in spending a lot of money to upgrade a 305 for all the reasons everyone already knows.

Machinework and cylinder heads and pistons cost the same on a 350 as they do on a 305.

It's all about what you want to do with the car, and MOST people want to do upgrades and go faster, and even that's okay on a 305. But then they start talking about machinework and piston rings and camshafts and cylinder heads... on a 305 that's just going too far. If you have to replace the cylinder heads, that's okay as long as it will work on a big bore block later, or you got them cheap enough that it's worth it to shave them down. If you just want to get the car running and working better thats one thing. If you want to go fast that's another. 305's with some cheap, good heads and a big cam and a good intake/carb and good exhaust can go a long way, adn the best thing about good intakes/carbs/headers/exhaust is that they work just as well on a 350 as they do a 305.

58mark

iTrader: (3)

well said

oif0709

I had a 305 in mine. Did the whole nine yards with it 2, bored out 30 over, put a new steel crank and comp cam with lifters, ported the heads. new everything in it. the difference i felt between the normal 305 and the 310 when it was done was jack. It was little louder but that was about it. put 2300 in the engine and heads. Last week i picked up a 350 block and heads for 250 bucks. put it in and the difference was insane. The car feels 10x better while driving it. so much smoother on the road. and when i get on it the tires dont stop spinning, I have to pay attention to the speedometer because it goes over the speed limit so quick i can barely feel it and i havent lost a race on the street yet with it. Its always been my daily driver since the day i got the car.

Saying all that. If you have a 305 and shun the idea of a 350, try it because youll be impressed. But either way whatever floats your boat bud. I will never again go back to the 305.

oif0709

I agree! lol

iggy1991

Honestly it was the only motor I had and I was young when I rebuilt it and put a cam in it. Its a great way to learn how these v8s work and how they come apart and go back together. Reading the repair manual to get it all just right. All that work with what you already have plants the seeds to learn how to do it on other motors. So when people are ready for something bigger its not such a big hurtle if they decide to do so. Also learning to port your own heads is fun too when Camaro 305 TPI heads are everywhere. Everyone’s definition of performance is different whether it’s going fast around corners or going fast in a straight line or racing though a autocross tracks. I don’t argue with people or belittle them when they say they want to rebuild their 350 by saying throw it out and get a big block. Almost anything you buy for a 305 will fit a 350 so what’s the point of killing threads that could have a lot of useful information in them with a endless debate about this. Who cares what’s under the hood! we are all enjoying the car for what we get out of it. I have a 305 in my Camaro and its a fun car. I’ve rebuilt it twice and until a good deal comes along on something bigger I’m going to keep it. Give the person the info they are looking for with the ridicule.

kmcn47

58mark=pure genius, also i hold a fairly high opinion of the 305, you see you may be making high numbers with your 350+ ci engines, but if they are your daily driver, how many mpg do you get? how long did/do you think its going to last before something goes wrong and your out money due to repairs? and doesn't it get old having anyone and everyone who knows its a camaro/firebird say, "whats that thing got a 350?" because its the best known chevolet engine ever and every backwards *** hick from wv to alabama (no offense to anyone) thinks its god (GM)'s gift to holy performance, honestly i'd rather have a solid running 305 (not at all hard to find) over a "race ready" 350 because well i just think its better, and because its my car, thats all that matters

90 camaro cj

He just asked why do people build 305s not why do people who own third gens and are members of this board build 3rd gens, i know very few people actually do race like this but that is a reason people build 305s

87WS6

iTrader: (1)

Well I think some people believe their cars are rare or will some how become desirable collector's items one day and want to keep that originality. Despite the fact there is no evidence that this will become the case, this line of thinking is a hold over from the days when such things did matter and in some circles they still do. Others may not care about performance and want to do a simple restoration as the car sits making it pretty much factory new again.

Then there are the rest of us who know the performance of the 305 is lacking and know that it's a poor basis for making serious power. It's not that you couldn't do it if you wanted to but those same efforts, and the same money it costs to do so would be better served allowing you to get more for your money by building on a better engine platform. The Chevy 350 is simply a much better starting place if power is what you are after. Unfortunately for some, this crowd is the most vocal and sometimes members of one group or the other do not understand the other group.

Some people are simply misguided or misinformed. This is often the belief of one group or another and sometimes they are right. Either way the only people I truly believe are wrong or the people that do 305's thinking they are going to make power in a different way and that they are truly unique with their goals and aspirations. This is simply not the case as a lot of people think that way. (I've even given it some thought back in the day.) Most of them give up this dream when they learn just how easy it is to get a 350 block and have it machined. Since the engine has to come out of the car anyway, it's no more difficult to slap a Chevy 350 in the 305's place than it is to return the original engine to the car.

torque_is_good

you guys are brutal

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

.... but tell us what you really think though.

85_ZED28

The 305 is a great engine. My 305 had over 240 000km on it and purred like a kitten. Started up first turn of the key every time. It was very reliable, and hey, at least it sounded good.

That being said, here she is on her way out to make room for a 350

-AO-

sofakingdom may be the dumbest member here at TGO but I agree with almost everything he says. So if you want my 305 advice, do what he says. 350>305

I will give a few reasons to keep the 305 though.

1. Roller cam! Some old 350's will need work to run one so if you have a roller 305, there's one reason to keep the 305.
2. 1pc rear! Some old 350's have a 2pc rear so if your 305 has a 1pc rear, there's another reason to keep the 305.
3. Rust! Some 350's are so rusted out that they are basically junk, even if they were cheap/free.
4. You don't have a truck to go to the junkyard and pick up a 350.

freaky

thats like asking why date a blond over a redhead ... to each there own an as long as your not paying the bill don't worry about it . rotflmfao !

iggy1991

At least if this thread keeps going all the people who hate on 305s will stay here and leave all the other threads alone so that the info someone is looking for wont get clouded by "put a 350 in it!"
Also I could care less about what its worth 20yrs from now. My car doesnt even have an interior in it. Its original state will never be again and the 305 is just fine untill it destroys itself. Plus I dont think most 3rd gens will make it another 20yrs unless it never saw any water.

freaky

hows your 305 run iggy ?

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

You're not wrong or anything, but there ARE 2 pc RMS, non-roller 305's out there. There werea lot of 305's made before 1986. And if you're rebuilding a 305, you gotta pull it out and take it to a machine shop in a truck anyway, unless you have a machineshop in your garage.

A roller 305 is marginally preferable to a non-roller 350 in some ways... I wouldnt say it's enough that it should deter someone from getting a 350, but I wouldn't fault anyone who decided to stay 305.

But still, roller 350 blocks aren't uncommon, they're just not the same 70s 350 fodder that's so common. Those mythical "010" blocks... with their "high-nickel content"... LOL.

torque_is_good

the 89 which i just restored should see 20 more years as long as the new owners maintain it. It's a FL car staying in FL so it had no rust and I went over it very closely. I sanded down the paint to bare metal in some areas and got rid of the surface rust where there were scratches and dings.

I would have kept it but I really want to do a pickup truck and I don't have the room.

D&S 85 IROC

I'm going to rebuild my 85 IROCZ 305TPI 700r 3:42 posi rear just for the simple reason it's a numbers matching car, with 125K on it.

rusty vango

well,say you arent building a drag car.say you find a IROC that is numbers matching.say you want a decent daily driver that dont take too much gas to operate.yes a 350 always will make more power.but a 305 will always use less gas to run.there are all manner of 350 fans out there but usually they want to race.so its like that ,my friend, some just want to drive the car ,others want to drive 1/4 mile at a time

rusty vango

wow....sofa get a sandwich or something .im amazed at how angry you are at 305s .but you are right,a 305 on its best day will make only 250/300 HP and for some thats ok, others ,clearly not so much

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Right on dude, sounds like a Barret Jackson candidate

rusty vango

exactly my point,well said

rusty vango

amen,58mark,well said

58mark

iTrader: (3)

thanks!

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

So much love for the 305 in this thread lol. Sadly, even if I posted up a 133-mph trap with my turbo 305, people would still say; "could have gone faster with a 350" lol. Take all the criticism from where it comes, but just enjoy the damn car in the end...