skinny z

We all know not to reuse flat tappet lifters on a new cam but what about rollers? I have a 40 000 mile Comp hydraulic roller and am in need of new lifters. You can see by looking at the cam lobes that they're worn. Nothing you can feel with your fingertips but obvious enough.
Will a nice new set of rollers end up eating up what's left of the surface hardening on the cam lobes and wiping everything out?
I've never seen anything in print about it and it has me thinking. An engineering buddy of mine says that it would be foolish not to replace the whole assembly.
Anyone?

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

used roller lifters are ok to run on a used roller cam. flat tappet always need to go back in the location hey came out of they will wear down. If flat tappet ones are interchanged they will wipe out the cam. This is not a concern on the roller cams.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Rollers tappets don't have the "wear-in" behavior that flat ones do. All of that can be freely mixed.

OTOH, if the cam is wore out, I wouldn't put it back into a motor, new lifters OR old.

skinny z

That raises an interesting question.
DO roller cams wear out? I've measured the actual lift with a dial indicator and it appears to be in spec but that won't tell me if the cam is grooved in some odd way from contact with the rollers. I imagine, even though it's a roller cam, that there is a certain amount of surface hardening applied to it.
I guess what I'm really trying to do is convince myself the cam is ok and avoid all of the extra work involved in installing it.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Roller cams are not SUPPOSE to wear out. Look at OEM's. My 160K mile L98 cam didnt wear out. If the cam is wearing out, then it was made with inferior material that was too soft to begin with. Roller cams are definately made abit different than standard hyd flat tappet cams.

Get a good cam core, preferably billet and it will last forever.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I got a solid roller from comp and within 3k miles the roller lifters had a wear path around the lobe like it hadn't been properly hardened.
I have SLP cam and a few OEM rollers that have the same type of roller wear path.
Cheap chiniseum junk anymore...

skinny z

I had no issues or concerns prior to the start of this season when I installed a fresh set of the same spring I've been using all along. Then it was 1....2.....3.....lifters collapsing. What I'm trying to determine now is if the cam is ACTUALLY worn out. It's seen 40 000+ hard miles. I've thrown out a request for opinions at Comp tech support. It'll be interesting to read what they have to say.

Ha. I like that one.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Not sure how aggressive your new cam is gonna be but the morel lifters are the best for the hyd roller applications and can handle 200 lbs seat loads and near 500 open pressures! Thats solid roller pressure. They will handle any hyd roller setup you can run. Well worth the money if you are going aggressive.

Shop around for pricing although its hard to find anyone dealing morels. 2 years ago or so, I ordered Morels since I thought my LS7's were bad. turned out to be exhaust leak so i returned them. I think I only paid 500 bucks then. Now 619 shipped....

skinny z

Straub is the only dealer I've found for Morels so far.
Honestly I don't think my mild combo warrants the expense. In fact I'm running a dyno program right now and have gone DOWN in duration but UP in lift which changes the game. Was 276 adv intake w/ .530" lift, now potentially 270 adv w/.570" lift. I now have MUCH better heads so I can jack the lift figures all else being the same.
Still undecided....
I would PREFER to keep my old cam for now, get new lifters and hope the whole thing stays together. I'd love to get a baseline with the new heads and old cam. Then I would make a change in the cam department during the next off season and see what that can do. What's really limiting is the cast short block. Besides being bolstered with ARP bolts and hypereutectic pistons, it's just an OEM bottom end. I like to limit peak rpm to 6500 on the 1-2 shift and 6 grand after that.

Atilla the Fun

I've seen roller cams look very different after many thousands of miles, but no actual wear. If one is wearing, something is very badly wrong. Used roller cams are fine with new or rebuilt roller lifters. And New roller cams are fine with new or rebuilt roller lifters. I'm a big fan of rebuilding un-damaged roller lifters, lots of success, not one problem.

skinny z

Aside from the high mileage and the massive pounding I give it, there should be nothing to cause it to wear out. At least that's what I think. Still, there APPEARS to be significant tracking on the lobes. Worn out....I can't say.
I'm loath to buy another set of the same lifters but admittedly, 40 000+ miles out of any aftermarket performance component can't be that bad.
The part about changing to a different lifter that bugs me is the need for another set of pushrods seeing that the seat height changes from lifter to lifter. I've JUST changed pushrods to accomodate the new heads and longer valves.
I had thought about the rebuild route however there's no way I can see to disassemble a retro-fit link bar style lifter. The bars are riveted in place and the rivet prevents the internals from being removed.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Got any pics? Does it leave an impression or just a shiny spot where the roller has been? Thats normal but a depression or groove cut in is NOT.

Then again i've never ran an aftermarket part that many miles

skinny z

Driving is one of my favourite past times. I rack up a lot of miles so I'm a durability test for plenty of aftermarket parts!
Unfortunately, I don't have any pics. Just a few of the new heads regarding gaskets and such from this springs rebuild.
I wouldn't call the tracks "grooves" so much as they are obvious but I can't measure the depth.
I've more or less decided, unless some revelation comes along through conversations like this, to get another 7 sets of the Comp 853 lifters to go along with the one already purchased.
I spoke with a fellow at Howards Cams asking for a recommendation. While the advice he gave was reasonable enough in that he said my application is performance street and don't have any real need for more than their basic top of the page lifter, he seemed certainly less than interested in talking to me. Kind of rude actually.
That said, no Howards for me. That and the fact that Howard's seat height is different and it would mean yet another set of pushrods to keep the geometry in line. That info I had to find on my own as the Howards guy wasn't very helpful.
Back to Comp.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I guess you cant go wrong keeping the same brand. For notes, my ls7 lifters appear to be same height as the Morels...I sized my pushrods for Ls7's and kept them same for the Morels and appear to have good geometry at this time. Once motor is up and running I can do a quick check on the wear patterns on the stem.

skinny z

I guess 40 k miles isn't bad. Back to the same brand.
Next build will be quite different. More along the lines of a road racing engine with targets like an open road event or a flying mile. Then sustained high rpm operation enters into the equation. I know the Vette guys and their track cars like the Morels for that reason and they get to keep the hydraulic component of their valve trains too. They pick up where the LS7 lifter starts to drop off.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

The GM Caddy race lifters were suppose to be the next step up from the LS7 for much higher rpm and sustained rpm usage...however I have a friend who used them and they failed on a mild application...not sure why but they were well priced for the duty claimed, making them a great bang for the buck... Just after hearing some failures, not sure I'd run them.

skinny z

That's all it takes to ruin a reputation. Justified or not.

AlkyIROC

I mix and match my roller lifters all the time. They go back into any hole. I've had the lifters on at least 3 different cams now.

Roller lifters don't last forever but will if they're not abused. The roller itself doesn't generally fail unless something stops it from rolling which will then wipe out a lobe. A cracked lifter body, failed bearings, debris in the bearings or rollers etc.

The way to do a basic check is to thoroughly clean the lifters in solvent then see if the roller feels rough. That would indicate a bearing is going. The roller needs to be clean and dry to inspect it. Depending on the brand, many roller lifters and rockers can be sent back to the manufacturer to be properly inspected and rebuilt for less than a set of new ones.

As for flat tappets, used lifters can only go back on the old cam and on the exact lobe they came off of. If you have a used flat tappet cam that isn't damaged and don't have the original lifters, you can install new lifters on it with no problems. The new lifters will spin and wear into the lobe just like they're supposed to do.

Because a roller cam doesn't wear, slide, etc across the lobe, you can put them back onto any lobe or any cam.

skinny z

[QUOTE=AlkyIROC;5260805] I've had the lifters on at least 3 different cams now.

The way to do a basic check is to thoroughly clean the lifters in solvent then see if the roller feels rough. That would indicate a bearing is going. The roller needs to be clean and dry to inspect it. Depending on the brand, many roller lifters and rockers can be sent back to the manufacturer to be properly inspected and rebuilt for less than a set of new ones.

As for flat tappets....QUOTE]

My concern is the condition of my current cam. I hoping that it's in decent enough shape after all those miles. If I've worn through the surface hardening, then it's bound to fail, roller or not.
My lifters are failing not at the roller, but in the internal valving. As they fail, they have less and less resistance to preload and eventually get to the point of collapse. Being a link bar style lifter, it’s not possible to rebuild them as the rivet that holds the bar prevents the internals from being removed. Certainly not possible to do it in my shop and Comp tells me they don’t do it either.

As for flat tappets....Never again.

skinny z

Here's the latest in case anyone is interested.
Having had one of my original Comp 853 lifters fail (collapse), I replaced it with a new pair (link bar style). Shortly after that, two others failed in the same manner. I replaced the entire set.
Now, ANOTHER of the NEW lifters is failing to hold pre load and taps away.
I've been in touch with Comp and have explained the whole scenario to them.
I went so far as to cut up one of the old lifters and found the small metering disc was damaged. Comp is interested in what I find with this new set of lifters in that one of them is noisy and it's brand new save for the 100 miles I've put on it.
Has anyone had an unexplained valve train noise that they've remedied?
I'm at a loss to explain this latest problem as I figured, from asking the 3rd gen crowd and Comp if the new lifter/old cam is an OK mix.
I've added the link to my forum conversation with Comp if anyone wants to read the full account.
At this point I haven't done any engine running testing but will do that soon.

http://www.cpgnation.com/forum/used-...ters-6987.html

DeltaElite121

There's your problem. I'd say you're lucky you got 3K miles out of them. Not meant for street driving.

Oh, and I would never use old lifters if I've got the motor torn down (old meaning greater mileage use). If you've spent $300+ on a new cam, there's really no reason to skimp on the lifters considering those are the parts that take the beating.

skinny z

What about the other way around? Old cam, new lifters on a hydraulic roller.

http://www.cpgnation.com/forum/used-...ters-6987.html

DeltaElite121

Assuming the lobes are in good shape you'll be fine. I see people do that every day. I'd count myself in that crowd, but I opted for the benefits of a solid flat tappet instead.. that and I didn't want to pay for the hiked costs of a solid roller setup.

skinny z

Here's a little follow up to my adventure.
As posted above, this 350 has an entirely new valve train. EVERYTHING. Heads, springs, rocker arms, push rods, etc, etc. All Comp stuff right down to the new link bar lifters.
Tap,tap,tap....
I went so far as to modify a valve cover to allow engine running lifter adjustment and I couldn't eliminate the tapping.
I figured the cam had a wiped out lobe.
Nope.
Now what? Has anyone chased this sort of thing to a resolution?
For the record, I've followed the lash procedure every way possible, checked the rocker sweep across the valve stem, checked spring height and whatever else you could possibly do to find the problem.
I've even gone throught the schematics for the Gen 1 oiling system layout thinking that perhaps some piece of crap is preventing the lifter from getting oil pressure but it looks as though if this one lifter is starved (#6 exhaust) then the others downsstream will also be affected.
It's driving me nuts.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Possible out of round lifter bore causing low oil pressures in that region? Try swapping lifter sets to verify if its a lifter or just that #6 exhaust location?

skinny z

That's an interesting thought.
A completely new set lifters yielded the same result.
What I had discovered is that for whatever reason, the lifters were being pounded to bits as shown in the pics I sent to Comp. I was thinking that perhaps low oil pressure was causing the problem in that one lifter however two things are worth noting:
With the valve cover removed there appeared to abundant oil moving through the pushrod, so much so that it shot clear across the fender and another 5' onto the shop floor.
The other, (and it's based on my understanding of how the SBC Gen 1 oil galley architecture is), if oil pressure is somehow restricted to the #6 lifter bore, the feed through passage of the oil via the lifter bores (and around the lifters themselves) would prevent oil from reaching the lifters further down the oil stream. That should cause all kinds of trouble in that part of the engine.
I've had my share of crap flushed through this block. Previously it was a flat tappet cam that was wiped out. A complete rebuild of the short block with and overbore and cut crank was the result. Recently, I had the fuel pump eccentric go away (it's an interesting sight actually) and the most I've done after that , besides going to an electric pump, is several oil changes.
Maybe there's some crap stuck in there somewhere?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Hmm not sure if something is stuck because I also would think it would hurt oiling elsewhere. Did any of the lifter bodies look like they had scuffing or heat marks from friction in bore if there was low pressure? If new lifters did same thing at 6 exhaust hole then I would think something is out of whack with #6. That with same cam? Is there a runout problem on the lobe base circle on that hole?

skinny z

I'm not convinced about something being stuck either. As has been mentioned, there would be other problems downstream of #6 if that were the case.
It IS the original hige mileage cam but it appears to be ok (except for the missing fuel pump lobe). A quick measurement with vernier calipers shows that the lobes measure the same from one cylinder to the next however there could still be something messed up.
On a different note, I've since pulled the engine and started tearing it down. Combustion chambers and piston tops look fine. There is some slight vertical scoring of the cylinder walls. The one main bearing I inspected also showed scoring as well as the oil pump lid and rotor teeth. That's obviously the result of the cam debris being pumped around the engine. At the very least, I need a re-ring, re-bearing, hone and polish. Not to mention a thorough cleaning of all the oil passages.
I'm not sure if I'll invest in this block again. Like a couple of seasons ago, it's time to shop for another short block and decide from there.
I would think that a new cam, new short block and my already new heads and valve train should eliminate the lifter tap.

transam357jim

roller cams r harder ive used roller lifters with over 100000 miles they wont were out ive got a howards roller now took out a thumper to big n no vacum for brakes what specs on ur cam

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

not all roller cams are steel billet, some are a hard cast type steel and cant take hevy spring prsr,

if your getting a roller cam made, get it made out of steel billet with a cast gear pressed on, (no need for spcl dizzy gear)
have ran them on the streets for years.. even after 6 years. the lobes and lifters look like the day i put them in. you could see polish marks when held in the light..just right..Norm stuff

my last roller cam could use solid or hydc lifters..sorta trick
under 700 lift

skinny z

XR276HR. 276/282 adv dur. 224/230 @ .050". .536"/.544" lift w/ 1.6 rockers.

skinny z

This is a cast cam core however the spring pressures are well within spec.
125 lbs @ 1.80" installed height.
327 lbs @ 1.256" open height @ max lift.

Poncho92

OK I got a 1992 bird with 270000 when I bought her I am currently going to over haul her should I concern myself with the cam being flat if it is a roller cam?

cuisinartvette

Ditto, Ill never use anything with that name on it again
EVERY cam Ive bought from them since the late 90s went bad even a H Roller!

Maybe as theres more produced theres more failures but personally suspicious of the quality of cores used. Never had a failure from Isky Crane, had an Elgin that was over 25 yrs old before it finally gave up.

(As long as somene boob comes up with a fancy marketing name people will still buy crap)

If that cams worn at all replace it, yes rollers can go bad and will take your new lifters and bearings etc with it.