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Tech / General EngineIs your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
I bought a brand new 1989 Formula 350 (black with t-tops) when I graduated high school. I got married 20 years ago (tomorrow). I drove the car to our honeymoon and on the way back it overheated. A new thermostat took care of the problem or so I thought. A few weeks later I began noticing it was using antifreeze. I think it may have blew a head gasket or intake gasket and it got worse. Antifreeze pretty much would go straight threw the exhaust. Me being without funds to repair it (and not having the heart to get rid of it)... covered and parked it in my dads garage with 30,000 miles on the odometer. I used to start it a couple times a year but the last 5 its just been setting. Raising three kids and all the ball games, school functions, vacations, etc., etc. has kept me busy over the years but now the kids are graduating from high school way to fast and don't really have as much time to spend with dear old dad as they used to.
I was looking at the car the other night and thinking back 20 years ago to all the good times I had in the that car during the 30,000 miles of its life. Its still in great condition other than a few boxes that were stacked up to high and fell on it (thanks mom). lol I'll never sell the car because I thought the car looked cool as h3ll when I go it and still think so today.
Don't bash on me too much for parking it. I did what I needed to do at that time in my life... I am happy I have been able to keep it over the years... even if it is broke and setting in a building. lol
Anyway... I now do have some funds to spend towards it. Whats the best thing to do with the motor? Is it ruined because I've let it set so long? Any advice is greatly appreciated.
Thanks Guys,
Kirk
Kirk
I have the EXACT same car a bought it new too in '89. Took it to Mt. Washington NH in July that year. T-Tops off, radio playing rock/hard rock, NOT THAT NASTY MADONNA CRAP MUSIC! Fond memories for sure. Just drove it tonight for a spin.
I had the car sit from 2003 to 2012, start it from time to time, but never registered it, etc. Same thing, paying for house, funds were tight. Then in 2012 I had money. So I bought it back to life and she runs AWESOME. has 93K on it. Of course it needed a new fuel pump, you will too I bet, new exhaust from cats back (had them emptied out years ago), a tune up and oil change. She runs great, just having VAT issues and something is draining the battery.
Man, 30K miles!!! Get her going on the road!!!
By the way the paint on my car SUCKS. It was black just like yours and in 93 it the clear coat separated all over the car and peeled off. I had it repainted in '94 Firebird grey, but it too is now trashed. I will take it down to metal, cut out the minor rust and paint her in black again some day.
Driving it tonight gives me such a rush. Got on a back road and opened her up, man she sounds so good, and this pony wants to run!!! I love the Firebird, and 3rd is one of my favorites for sure!
Last edited by Hawkeye1980; 05-09-2015 at 07:30 PM.
I finally got around with messing with this car.lol I put a new battery(Advance Auto Gold - $125) in it yesterday. Fuel pump bad. Removed fuel pump(what a pain in the butt) and getting ready to order a new one tomorrow. Been looking at parts. Probably Bosch fuel pump, strainer and filter. Also ordering head gasket kit, new head bolts, plugs, wires, etc. I'm also going to put a cat back exhaust system on it since my intermediate pipe had some rust holes in it and I beat the crap out of my muffler taking it off. haha Any suggestions on a cat back system? Looks like the Dynomax super turbo is a good deal but how does it sound compared to stock? I always felt the stock muffler was a little to quite. Also suggestions on plugs and wires. The engine is 100% stock and I have no plans to change that. Ohhh... also the gas tank is grungy. Whats the best process to clean the gas tank?
Here is a picture.
this puts a tear in my eye... she is BEAUTIFUL!!! Please do keep us posted on your progress!! Nice to see your paint held up as well. '89 was a bad year for GM and paint.
Last edited by Hawkeye1980; 05-09-2015 at 07:30 PM.
Update: Purchased 22 pound Bosch injectors this week. Since I've already got everything down to the fuel rail off (btw... this was kinda a pain in the butt getting this stuff off) I'm gonna take off the intake and see if I can tell if anything went wrong with the intake gasket. If I can't tell I'll remove the heads.
Bad news. I got water in the oil. Looked fine on the dip stick but when I drained the oil it broke my heart. I still can't tell if it was a intake manifold or head issue but I'll find out. #2 cylinder was receiving a abundant flow of coolant.
Engine is coming out. I've already exceeded my budget on this project but I'm gonna pull the engine to see whats wrong. Was hoping things would go better but it is what it is. I'll do what I can and probably cover everything back up. We'll see... one step at a time but I just don't have any money left and I spent all day in the stupid hospital with kidney stones yesterday.smh Oh well... life goes on. I have really appreciated the input and suggestions you guys have offered. Very much appreciated.
I do have a question on the fuel injectors. I bought these bosch injectors and they look quite a bit different than the originals. They will fit okay correct?
Update: Everything off engine, all bolts removed and ready to come out. I'm just pulling the engine and leaving the transmission in the car. Engine puller and engine stand waiting in the garage. Next weekend I get engine will be out.
Engine pulled and heads removed. I honestly could not notice where intake or head gasket was leaking. Just dropped off head at machine shop to get it checked out. Block cylinder wall and crank actually look pretty good. Will start cleaning block up and see how it goes. Maybe there is hope for the old girl to see the road yet.
Injectors are Bosch III's right. Read this, you'll be fine. StraighT from Southbay Fuel Injectors:
"The complaints that we have received throughout the years with the bosch lll's is that fuel leaks from up top if the injectors are installed into the rail first and that's an installation or an oring issue. We have found that when they are installed into the intake first it alleviates all leakage from the rail side, has to do with alignment. The reason why the oring is square is that we have them custom made for our adapter and for proper fitment. When we first designed the adapter for the bottom of the injector we did R&D for about 6 months to make sure fitment was perfect before we started selling them. They are specific for the adapters and yes you are correct, they don't sit as far down into the intake as the stock, but it is ok. Guarantee you will not have a vacuum leak. Will tell you that the injectors will more than likely leak if they are not installed properly."
Bummer on the engine pull.. Sounds like it shouldn't be much of a problem to get it squared away. Keep us posted and if you need anything, PM me if you have to..
DCorvin, I told my wife what you said a bout a second honeymoon. If I ever get this car put back together... we may just do that second honeymoon.lol She said as long as the car doesn't overheat like it did last time she was all for it! haha If the second honeymoon happens I might stop in along the way and say high. And if the car overheats again on the way I'll know someone close by that can come help me.
TT350, Thanks for all your help on this project. I really appreciate it. I'm looking into getting a loan to at least put in a new oil pump, water pump, rear main seal, good exhaust, new tires and maybe even a new intake system. The more I look at that stock TPI setup the more I dislike it. Do you know if the HSR is still available to purchase from anywhere and if so will it fit under my stock hood? Will the stock MAF sensor ducting hook up to it?
I had thought about a different cam as well but it could get expensive since I would probably need a new chip made as well if I went that route. I'm past the point of going fast but I'd like for the car to sound good and be pretty fast from stop light to stoplight.
I can't believe I'm getting a loan to fix up this car.lol I've actually had fun tearing it apart. I've been cleaning up the block and should be ready to put back together soon.
Just a suggestion…since you've gone this far, and if it were mine I would tear that short block down and go over it. Have it hot tanked, new cam bearings and freeze plugs installed. Measure the bores and all the journals, install new bearings, rings, gaskets etc. Bore and hone if needed with new pistons.
Yeah, it'll add to the cost but you'll know exactly what you have when its done. Since it overheated and it ran with water in the oil, there could be other damage aside from a blown head gasket.
TTOP350, Thanks for all your help on this project. I really appreciate it. I'm looking into getting a loan to at least put in a new oil pump, water pump, rear main seal, good exhaust, new tires and maybe even a new intake system. The more I look at that stock TPI setup the more I dislike it. Do you know if the HSR is still available to purchase from anywhere and if so will it fit under my stock hood? Will the stock MAF sensor ducting hook up to it?
I had thought about a different cam as well but it could get expensive since I would probably need a new chip made as well if I went that route. I'm past the point of going fast but I'd like for the car to sound good and be pretty fast from stop light to stoplight.
I can't believe I'm getting a loan to fix up this car.lol I've actually had fun tearing it apart. I've been cleaning up the block and should be ready to put back together soon.
The HSR is available but it is very tight under the hood. Some bracing may need trimmed and the hood blanket will need cut for clearance too. The MAF ducting is a direct fit.
There may be better options if you just want some mild modifications.
Just a suggestion…since you've gone this far, and if it were mine I would tear that short block down and go over it. Have it hot tanked, new cam bearings and freeze plugs installed. Measure the bores and all the journals, install new bearings, rings, gaskets etc. Bore and hone if needed with new pistons.
Yeah, it'll add to the cost but you'll know exactly what you have when its done. Since it overheated and it ran with water in the oil, there could be other damage aside from a blown head gasket.
Thanks for the thoughts. I had a mechanic on hand when we disassembled and now that I cleaned up everything using wd-40... he is going to come back and take a look at it. It wasn't much coolant in the oil, no shavings in the pan and all the cylinders looked good but I'll get him to take a closer look at things. He was impressed with the condition of the engine when we disassembled but if he thinks I need to do more I will surely do it while its apart.
The HSR is available but it is very tight under the hood. Some bracing may need trimmed and the hood blanket will need cut for clearance too. The MAF ducting is a direct fit.
There may be better options if you just want some mild modifications.
If you've got some good options for mild modifications let me know. Feel free to PM me. I'm all ears right now.
DCorvin, I told my wife what you said a bout a second honeymoon. If I ever get this car put back together... we may just do that second honeymoon.lol She said as long as the car doesn't overheat like it did last time she was all for it! haha If the second honeymoon happens I might stop in along the way and say high. And if the car overheats again on the way I'll know someone close by that can come help me.
For sure if you're out this way and something happens give me a holler. Help the best I can. Good luck with the car feller!
Will do D_Smith87. I've had to take a break from the car to care for home and battling kidney stones but hopefully I'll be back working on the car soon.
Heads checked out fine from machine shop. Had mechanic friend come over and we removed piston and honed cylinder where water had been getting in. Piston compression rings were locked up tight. Will be ordering rings, engine gasket kit, water pump, oil pump, thermostat, etc. soon. Was thinking about converting this car from the auto to 5 speed (I even bought all the parts) but my mechanic friend thought I should keep it all original. He felt it would be a shame to change it up (and he's a hot rod guy).lol Will post more as I do/learn more. I'm in no hurry but I'd like to have it done before November. Time and more importantly finances will determine the completion date.
Luckily... the block, rods and crank all look like brand new so all standard sizes on rings and bearings. Keeping the engine stock. I simply can't afford to go modifying much due to finances but I want to do it right with good parts so hopefully I don't have future problems with the engine. If I can have a dependable nice looking car at the end of this adventure I'll be happy.lol
Luckily... the block, rods and crank all look like brand new so all standard sizes on rings and bearings. Keeping the engine stock. I simply can't afford to go modifying much due to finances but I want to do it right with good parts so hopefully I don't have future problems with the engine. If I can have a dependable nice looking car at the end of this adventure I'll be happy.lol
thats the route i was heading with my project car then i got a hair up my *** and swapped everything over to carb and gutted the car, but its no show queen like yours is capable of
My mechanic friends are awesome. They came buy and helped me do a lot of things today. Cost was lunch at McDonalds so excellent deal for me.
Fully disassembled block and cleaned. Bearings had some wear and rings were locked up tight in #2 cylinder (took forever for me to get the rings out). Removed cam and inspected cam and cam bearings (both looked great). Timing chain and sprockets also looked great. I am glad I disassembled this motor to inspect and clean.
Rings, main bearings, rod bearings, oil pump, water pump and all block gasket and seals installed. Short block is now good to go.
Machine shop has checked out heads(checked out fine). I've got them on workbench now to install valve seals. The mechanics suggested I add 1.6 roller rockers to the heads. So I've been researching the heck out of them. Some say its a waste of time on a stock motor while others say it not only gave them a few horsepower but made the car feel smoother. I read that I should install new springs and I've read that stock springs are no problem to reuse.
I know 1.6 rr's have been talked about before but does anyone care to comment on them? If so what kind of 1.6 rr's do you recommend? If springs are a must what kind of spring recommendations?
I have researched, analyzed, budget searched, thought about what I'm going to do with this car after completion, etc., etc. At the end of all my time spent... this is what I concluded.
Even though is 25+ years old... it does have very low miles. I'd love to hot rod it some but with hot rodding your only as good as your next bottle neck in the air pump they call a engine. These engines seem to have several bottle necks from the factory and to do it "right" I feel I would need to change way to much and my wallet can not support that. I estimate $3,000-$4,000 as a minimum to get it "right" (intake, exhaust, heads, cam, etc.). I have no desire to race it as in all my vehicles I drive like there is a egg between my foot and the gas pedal for fear of something breaking if I step on the gas hard(I can't afford to constantly be buying car parts). I want to just get in this car and take a ride in it once in a while. Maybe even a trip in it occasionally so it will be babied to the max.
I purchased the best parts I could buy for the rebuild. Rings, bearings, oil pump, water pump, gaskets, hoses, belt, etc. I got the best chevy engine builder I could find and had him come to my house to oversee the rebuild and he was the person that actually removed, inspected and installed the rings and bearings. Another friend of mine (Mustang expert... who reminds me everytime that I should have purchased a Mustang in 1989 because its "much simpler" to work on) has helped me with just about everything else. He had a friend who has a 1987 Trans Am that he purchased with low miles that now has over 300,000 miles on it including 2 engine rebuilds. This guy spent a Saturday with us installing the engine and knew everything about the car (wires, hoses, bolts, problems, etc.) which saved us a incredible amount of time plus I gained a wealth of knowledge about the car.
I feel like I'd did everything to restore it to like new condition using quality parts and knowledgeable personnel. I feel I have spent my money wisely for what I want to do with this car. When I open the hood I see a engine that looks just like it did in 1989 when I purchased it with using as many ACDelco replacement parts as possible.
I did buy a set of bosch injectors instead of the stock injectors. I will purchase a cat back exhaust (maybe the summit one but I want the original turned down style exhaust tips). I'll also invest in the paint to fix a few small scratches that it has. Even though tires are in excellent shape I'm sure they will need replaced.
I'll be firing up the engine this weekend if all goes well and hopefully soon have this old girl back on the road. Thank goodness for this forum as it allowed me to research and read everyone's opinions on all kinds of good stuff plus allowed me to ask some questions of my own. This forum has been a blessing for sure.
Its not going anywhere except hopefully for a drive once in a while. The egg is not going anywhere either.lol I'm getting to be a old man I guess. All I see are $ signs in everything I go to do.haha
Right now... I'll just be happy to see it run again with no problems.lol
I'll keep updating this thread until I feel I'm done with it. Maybe I'll even add up the costs and share for anyone that has to go through a similar situation.
Good luck. It looks like you are very close to driving it. I have much the same problem except my car sat outside. Rat chewed wiring and everything. Interior was in great shape though other than cracked dash. Glad to hear that the tank isn't that hard to drop. One question where did you place your jack stands to drop the tank?
I've actually still got the backend on jack stands because I am going to drop the gas tank again because I want to put a ACDelco sending unit in the tank. It really wasn't that bad to drop the rearend and gas tank. It takes a little wiggling around and mumbling under your breath to get it back in.lol
Your welcome. Be prepared for the gas tank to look like crap. I replaced gas tank, sending unit, fuel pump, fuel filter, rubber hoses coming off sending unit and all the injectors. The rubber hoses actually looked fine but they were cheap and easy to replace so I went ahead and replaced them.
Hey Kirk, you may want to unbolt the bracket for the rear brake hose....looks like it is under tension, that will damage it.
Oh wow! It wasn't like that when we moved on from the gas tank to the engine. I just checked it and I think my jack has leaked down over the months. Thanks for pointing that out! I jacked the rear end back up some to relieve the pressure and I'll keep a close eye on it. I've already purchased new rubber brake lines for the wheels(haven't put them on yet). I'll probably just go ahead and purchase that rubber line too. Thanks again!!
Update: Started engine today. Pretty good startup. Had to fix a couple things (left a fuel line loose and forgot to hook up a vacuum line to the throttle body). Engine had a rough idle at first but after checking the spark plug ans fuel injector connections the rough idle went away and the engine sounds great. I'm not sure why but the driver side electric fan comes on when I turn the key one spot and continues to stay on while the car is running. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
There are several reasons that Fan1 would turn on. The CTS signal could be high or low, so the fan defaults on. The A/C pressure switch signal could be causing it. The ECM could be in Limp Mode, but the SES would probably be on if that were the case. The wiring to the fan relay or the fan relay could be faulty.
Does the fan turn on with KOEO? That might be a good clue.
BTW - I've been following this saga for for quite a while. I know my opinion is just another opinion, but I think you've made a lot of "right" choices through the entire process.
Perhaps the most important of all was setting the project aside years ago and placing your focus on your family. You can rebuild/repair any mechanical mistake, but you only get one chance at your children and family.
Budgeting the project and not going overboard (over-bored?) was also a good choice.
Once the block was out, thoroughly tearing down and inspecting was also a good choice. You can thank yourself later.
Personally, I feel that choosing to keep the car mostly stock is the right choice. You should have less trouble/better reliability, better overall value, and even though it might not run like a 454 SB TT, it should still be fun to drive.
Thank you Vader for the kind words. I really appreciate it. I try to make good decisions in life and spend what little money the government and insurance companies let me keep wisely. I make mistakes sometimes just like everyone else. We all have our stupid moments.lol I am glad I hung on to this car over the years and I'm excited to see the car getting closer to back on the road.
The driver side electric fan does run with the KOEO. Does that clue us in to a certain area?
I also have another problem. The car starts up at about 1,100 RPMs at idle and gradually rises to around 1,300 RPMs. We can find no vacuum leaks, unhooked items, etc. When we unhook the connector next to the distributor the timing of the engine does not change. The service engine light is also on. We've tried to jumper wire the upper right 2 terminals to get the codes to flash but no codes will flash. We couldn't get any codes to flash when we started this project (pre-fuel and pre-engine removal).
Any ideas or thoughts anyone can provide is greatly appreciated. I will also research this on my own.
05-04-2015, 06:42 AM
