gbettner

iTrader: (2)

Hi everyone, I've been researching and slowly getting together a sweet vortec build for awhile now. I have vortec heads and vortec roller block at machine shop now getting punched .030 over for new flat top speed pro pistons with 4VR and Moly rings. Getting the heads resurfaced, valve job, and if needed new valve guides.

I'm trying to list out my exact parts list because the machine shop wants to see exactly what I'm trying to do so they know what exact steps to take. I'm bumping heads with them a little already on a few things but I want to try to stay on good terms with them to insure a good outcome.

My biggest problem is explaining to them what I want done to heads, I've decided on the LT4 hotcam with 1.6 roller rockers. Can someone please confirm these specs
LT4 hotcam = 218/228* @ .050 on a 112* LSA and .525/.525" lift using the spec'ed 1.6 rocker arms

By reading through dozens of threads I also THINK I need....

- valve springs with 120-145 seat pressure and 300-355 open pressure.
( maybe valve springs part # 96874-16)

I did alot of research a month or so ago but it's not fresh anymore (should have wrote it down) I now have the finances to move forward with the build.

Complete details are...
-96 350 Vortec roller block freshly bored
-stock vortec heads
-TPI induction
-Scoggin dickey or Edelbrock intake to adapt to Vortec heads
- .030 flat top pistons with 4VR
-Molly rings
-LT4 hotcam
-new valve springs ( again.....part #96874-16 ?....subject to change if so advised)
-1.6 roller rockers (self aligning)
-new stock 3/4" inlet vortec oil pump
-Stock Vortec rods ( all checked by shop and resized if needed)
-reground 10/10 stock crankshaft

My biggest concern is which spring to use....
Should I get the kit that says "no valve guide boss machining needed" that's supposed to be made for my exact applacation and save on machining costs?
Or just have bosses machined enabling me to use a cheaper spring kit? If so which one?

I've decided the best approach is to come up with what members on this forum advise me to and eliminate me depending on the shop to figure it out.
Kind of worried me when they acted shocked that I was going to buy new valve springs instead of re-using stockers ( seat/open pressures not even close to what I need), and they also shot me down and made me feel like a fool because I wanted them to go ahead and drill out pushrod holes to 1/2" diameter to eliminate any possible clearance issues since using 1.6 roller rockers saying "the geometry doesn't change, it's pointless".

I tried telling them I read this and that on a very good forum I'm a member of and they chuckled so heck with these guys. I'm still going to get my machine work done there but if you guys could help me through this just a little more I'd appreciate it. I can't risk flushing money down the toilet by making a couple bad decisions.

I'm open to any advice, I haven't purchased cam,springs,keepers,pushrods,intake,head gaskets,or roller rockers yet since I may end up getting a complete cam kit or some type of package deal. Any help would be appreciated.

If this has been covered a hundred times I'm sorry, I just want my own thread so I can come up with the exact combo that makes sense.

Thanks in advance!!!

89fast5oh

Is there a different machine shop you could go to? I wouldn't deal with a place that wouldn't listen to what I had to say.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Sounds like your "machine shop" is a corner parts store that specializes in the cheeeeeeeepest possible repairs to old hoopties and work trucks, and all they know is how to get a motor minimally "running" again for minimum price. Not at all what you're doing.

You need to find a better shop. Some place that does RACING work.

You don't get your guides machined so you can use "cheeeeeeeeeper" springs. That's not the point.

The Point is, the guide is SO TALL, that valves installed with the stock type of retainer at the stock height, will smack into the top of it at about .475" or so of lift. Varies by .025" or so, so don't get hung up on the exact #; but you can be sure, they won't make it safely to .485" no matter how lucky you are. Plus, the guide is SO HUGE OD, that the only springs that will fit over it, are single w no damper. Therefore, you machine the guide to be able to install GOOD springs, not CHEEEEEEEEEP ones.

96874 is a dual spring if memory serves; w 1.44" OD or thereabouts. Not sure if you can safely machine the pockets out far enough for those without hitting water. The common way around that is to drop a .030" 1.25" shim in the pocket and only cut it out down to that point; but by doing that, you lose .030" of installed height and therefore you are .030" closer to coil bind. It won't fit over the guide either, so you'd have to get the OD cut down.

Only really decent way to avoid machine work, is beehives. Which are not "cheeeeeeeeep" either, but have other advantages besides more clearance. http://texas-speed.com/p-439-pac-121...ve-spring.aspx for example. You'd need to use the Comp retainers for LSx springs except with 11/32" valve stems.

For a mild lightweight low-lift stockish cam like the one you're talking about, they'll work fine. I'd put em in at about 1.76 - 1.77" installed height, which should give you around .560" or a bit more, before parts interference. You'd do that with .050" offset keepers and however much shim. That combo will fit in the stock pocket over the stock guide w no machine work.

YES you need the push rod holes enlarged. Specifically, toward the studs. Since "ratio" is the distance from the stud to the valve tip divided by the distance from the stud to the push rod cup, and changing the rockers doesn't change the first distance (how could it?), it should be obvious that increasing the rocker ratio moves the push rod inward.

I'd suggest a better cam.

I'd also suggest re-thinking the entire TPI idea; since if you buy the $$$$base$$$$ and stick stock runners on it, you'll basically accomplish NOTHING. Plus, that cam doesn't play very nice with TPI, as is well and widely known; it (as well as better cams) works MUCH better with an intake that doesn't rely on the long-runner "tuning" (the "T" in "TPI") effect. The combo of TPI, $$$$heads$$$$, and $$$$$base$$$$$ is a surefire road to disappointment and flushing a great deal of money down the drain without getting any benefit from it.

gbettner

iTrader: (2)

Lots of good info there sofa, Thanks for taking so much time!
I originally had a good running stock 1985 350 TPI that was smoking but a BLAST to drive in my 89 Iroc (3.42 gears helped a bunch too). I spent alot of time and money converting harness, ecm, pump, bought all new injectors from south bay, etc... but found cylinder wall damage upon teardown when diagnosing the smoking problem. Decided to build a roller block rather than freshening the flat tappet cammed older block. I just can't scrap the TPI since I've done so much with it already and have the new injectors,harness,etc.... I'm really just going into this build with the idea of upgrading to vortec heads (and yes I'm taking a big hit on the 500.00 adapter intake), and making sure to get the best cam possible (with matching valvesprings) which up until now I thought was the LT4 hotcam. I was hoping to gain 50-75 horsepower. 100 might be a pipe dream but not sure.
I also know a member here that can give me a custom tune once I decide what I'm doing.

The info on the springs is GREAT! I'm going to look into the link.

As far as the machine shop, I already put the bore/hone in motion, crank grinding and the valve job. I think I'll just stop it at that point and bring heads back home to setup myself. With the info you just gave me it looks like I can setup whatever cam I go with WITHOUT machining and I can drill the pushrod holes out myself.

I'll dig deeper into researching cams, I'll dig deep in the TPI section to see if I can find a better fit.

Anyone with advice on TPI cam please chime in!

THANKS AGAIN SOFA!

redneckjoe

have you given any thought to the kit from alex's? i havent heard anybody complain about it.

http://www.alexsparts.com/valve-spri...d-flat-tappet/

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

I agree you need a different cam than the LT4 Hot if you're dead set on sticking with the TPI. The Hotcam starts to shine just where the TPI gives up the ghost. It's more a revver than its 218/228 numbers would suggest. Mild ramps, too much seat-to-seat duration for your combo. It was designed as a "showroom stock" roadracing cam in the early 90's.
Pick something with more aggressive ramps, more lift, less seat-to-seat duration to pack your powerband all down low. Look at the cams Lingenfelter used to pair with their TPI setups. Look at the Comp XFI lobes; I'm normally not a fan of them for street use (they're hard on valvetrains at high rpm), but with your low revving TPI that wouldn't be a concern.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

I'd suggest, for going with the TPI, the Comp "304" http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cc...04-8/overview/ or "502" http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cc...02-8/overview/ grinds. The specs might not "look" all that different from the HOT cam, but the objects themselves are... the "304" is probably the better choice for what your description of your situation seems to point toward.

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

And of those two that sofa recommended, I'd pick the CC 502. It has the quicker XE lobes, whereas the CC 304 has the older gentler Magnum lobes. I believe either the CC 502 or CC 501 would perform better than the 304 with a TPI.
The CC304 is kind of middle ground between the Hotcam and those XE grinds.

gbettner

iTrader: (2)

Redneckjoe, I did look at he alexspring kit you mentioned, my only concern is the seat pressure of 110lbs, not sure if they were intended for flat tappet cam or if they would be close enough. The springs sofa recommended have a better seat pressure of 120 so seat and open pressures both fall in the range I'm shooting for so it looks like I'll definitely go with them.

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

Here's the link for the correct Alex Parts kit for the cams we're talking about:
http://www.alexsparts.com/valve-spri...rf-hyd-roller/

redneckjoe

thanks. i put up the wrong link. my fault.

gbettner

iTrader: (2)

Well I'm locked in with either the recommended CC 502 or the lunati voodoo 20080721 (almost exact same grind but just sounds neat). Then either the spring setup sofa called out or the alex spring kit set.....just got to look into that and run the numbers/search on some feedback.

Next thing to address is the roller rockers. Since I'm not going with the LT4 hotcam don't know if If I should go with 1.5's or 1.6's. I imagine They cost about the same, I know I need self aligning, just don't want to hurt my combo with the wrong ones ( if it even matters). If it means a couple horsepower either way I just want to go the right direction and figure out what to start searching for on Ebay..... (since running the center bolt valve covers clearance will be tight too).

Thanks for the great guidance so far from everyone, it's not taken for granted, I really appreciate you guys helping me out with my build.

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

I'd use 1.6's for the 502 cam and 1.5's for the Lunati.
I really think you're at the point of diminishing returns here with TPI, and the Lunati is a tad more cam; I'd go CC502 or less.

gbettner

iTrader: (2)

Thanks 86LG4Bird....... Bright Indiana is only about 90 minutes from me! I'm 30 minutes south of Indy Shelbyville/Franklin/Boggstown area.

GreggymacZ28

Is this car your daily driver? And what are your intended purposes for it? Just curious, as the answer to that question really will sway the answer on parts recommendations for your car. For example if you are looking for a track car, the tpi should probably go. Also, I have stock vortec heads with the alex's springs kit running the Comp Cams 288hr which has 236/242 duration @ .050 and .520"/.540" lift, and I drag race my car every weekend and the car runs 11.70's in the 1/4 at 115 mph. I would say the springs will do perfectly fine with any cam these guys have recommended for you.

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

Boggstown - first cornfield I've ever seen with a post office! ....LOL!
I've been through there Do you ever race at Muncie? It's a long way for me, but their starting line is the cat's meow, even on T&T days, and I've turned my best 60's there.

Greggymac, that's a good data point to have with the Alex springs. I've only used and recommended them with milder cams; good to hear they may be more capable than I've given them credit for. How many runs would you say you have on them? turning, what....6500 rpm?

GreggymacZ28

I actually turn 6800 and was turning 7000 for a long time before I decided it liked 6800 just a little bit better. I would say I have atleast 400-500 runs on them. I bracket race every weekend and get about 10 runs in a week not including all the test and tune and other races i go to during the year. I have been running this setup for 2 race seasons now. However, I do think that after 6500 rpm I begin to experience a little valve float, but not much. I am not 100% on that though.

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

Good to hear those springs can handle that much!
Nice touches on that car. I always like to see speed WITH style at the strip Are those GS wheels?
Milan eh?.........ever see my buddy Don with the big green Impala running there?

GreggymacZ28

They were GS wheels off of my dads 1970 buick gs, I have some different wheels on there now, and he reclaimed those wheels, lol. And yeah I race in the points there on Sunday's. Does your buddy Don race in the sunday bracket series?

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

Nah, you'd see Don there only on T&T days.

GreggymacZ28

Ah, okay. I might have seen him before. I'll keep an eye out this year.

gbettner

iTrader: (2)

Greegymac, My Camaro will just be an occasional weekend warrior. I have 2 other trucks for daily drivers. Just building this to hot dog around for fun occasionally when I get the urge.
I didn't know until this thread how undesirable the TPI was for big power so I'm pretty disappointed. But think I'm still going to stick with it because of time and money already invested.

Don't really know what else I can do, Only other way to go with vortec heads is carb right? Someone mentioned Holley stealth ram but not sure if that bolts to vortecs and it's WAYYYYYYY too expensive.

A very small part of me is considering a carb but dag gonnit I love fuel injection and hate to retire a perfectly good TPI system. I'm torn on what to do!

gbettner

iTrader: (2)

I'm exactly 2 miles directly south out of Boggstown. And no, I've never drag raced anywhere but 100mph tune ups around my house on the county roads ( Ran a 76 cutlass "Roadrunner" at the Indianapolis Kitley Speedrome circle track years ago though). Maybe when I get a good motor built I'll take it somewhere to let er rip.

gbettner

iTrader: (2)

FIRST fuel injection won't work with Vortec heads will it? Not coming up with much on searching. Tried Ebay and just one "complete kit" popped up for over 3,000.00 bucks. It would be pretty sweet If I could get just what I needed to go with harness and 7730 ecm I'm already running. Just wandering.

gbettner

iTrader: (2)

Now I feel stupid, I just realized there's an entire section in the forum dedicated to aftermarket EFI systems (That's why searching in TPI section had no good results). Checked on ebay and have lots of options not too pricey.

Sofa, I've finally convinced myself ( as you said in the beginning)the minimal investment I have in my tuned port setup isn't worth the power /flow limitations I've recently learned about. I might even be able to swap over my new 22lb injectors to whatever I end up going with). I searched on Ebay and found a few options I'm starting to look into that are very exiting, I didn't realize all the options for Vortec head EFI!

gbettner

iTrader: (2)

Well I sent the machine shop a fax stating I just wanted the block finished up, and heads resurfaced then I'll do the rest. (No setting up my springs/etc...)

I'm going Weiand Vortec stealth ram. I've thought long and hard on your advice and can't bear to move forward with TPI. However I might adapt it over to my plow truck down the road.

Now, unfortunately, if I could revisit the "which cam" question. Now with better flowing intake, is LT4 hotcam with 1.6 rockers back in the running? I would prefer a very torquey fun to drive, will purchase a stall converter if/as needed. Again, guidance is very appreciated.

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

Yes, with a better intake, you could say the Hotcam is again a candidate.
BUT.....there are still better choices, regardless of intake, so unless you got a smokin' deal on a Hotcam, ie. almost free, I'd go with something better that will give you a better overall power curve.
Until you decide what the rest of the setup is going to be now, and what your new target for rpm range is, we really can't recommend a cam yet.
Are you sticking with the 3.42's? What converter do you currently have? Pretty sure you'll want to change that; the cam/powerband and TC need to complement each other.

IF you do go with the Hotcam, get some offset bushings and install it at about a 106 ICL rather than the "drop in" 109 ICL it's designed around. It will really help low/mid rpm power with little sacrifice at the top end. Ie. we're trying to make more of street/drag cam out of it rather than a roadrace cam which it was designed as.

gbettner

iTrader: (2)

Sorry 86LG4bird, I've been tied up plowing snow at indianapolis airport. Right now I just have a stock converter and 3.42 open rearend. I'll have to upgrade to limited slip/G80 locker for sure because the old stock 350 TPI motor was hard to keep from spinning tires.

I'll probably just mostly just hot rod it to town and back a couple times a week running errands ( 20 minute trip each way). Talk buddy's into going for a ride and see if I can get them to sh*t their selves. Might not ever see the dragstrip but could one day I guess. So I guess bottom end / mid range would be my best fit. Would only wind it all the way outevery once and a while ( for me that would be 5500-6000rpm tops). I would like it be stoplight freindly if possible. I'd love to hear any suggestions you might have if that's precise enough and I'll also start reading up on old threads to try and get some ideas of my own. That trick on setting the cam is pretty neat but I must admit I've never actually degreed a cam before. Doesn't look too hard. I've "youtubed" it before out of curiosity but never actually done it.

PS... I'm going to try getting to the bank tomorrow and put in some money to get my Wieand stealth ram on the way! I know I need a bunch more stuff but I just want to get something bought. Gotta read through that long "alternative holley fuel rail" thread and figure out what to order also.

Thanks for the response!

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

I believe G80 is the RPO code for the "Gov Loc" limited slip diff. At least it was in my pickup. Avoid that diff! It's a poor posi for a pickup, even worse for a performance application. It's nicknamed "Gov Bomb" because of the way it shatters when it locks up while power is being applied. I removed mine from my truck after just a few trips to the dragstrip with slicks, and two spider gear teeth were broken off.
Definitely put money aside for upgrading the rearend before sinking it all into the engine without being able to put the power to the ground.
It sounds like you're after seat-of-the-pants feel and not after absolute hp/ET numbers. The best bang for the buck is going to come from a good torque converter, not just for good 60' times at the strip, but for keeping the engine in the powerband after each shift. Which stall speed you pick depends on the rpm powerband you're shooting for, which is heavily influenced by the cam, AND the stall speed depends heavily on the converter brand you go with. For instance, I'm running a budget Edge 2800 in the Firebird right now, which drives about the same as a Yank SS3600, but the Yank converter will blow it away in performance.
I'd stick with a cam around that size (218-220 intake duration) we were talking about. That Lunati sounds a lot better now

gbettner

iTrader: (2)

Sweet! Thanks for the continued responses. I'll definitely upgrade the rearend and converter. Just got to do one thing at a time. The car isn't going anywhere so I can just nibble away at what it needs as I have the funds.

Machine shop never called me back...... huh, imagine that. I'm sure they're mad because I'm not doing their dance anymore. We'll see how much they try inflating labor costs now. Then I'll whip out the email quote they don't realize they sent me months ago and keep em honest.

gbettner

iTrader: (2)

Well I made some big progress.....

Lunati cam ordered and on the way ( Part # LUN - 20080721)

Weiand stealth ram ordered and on the way ( #7542)

Now working on ordering springs, keepers, locks.

Machine shop called about done with the work and asking if I still wanted valve seats cut ( they left a message ) I think I'll just do it myself by hand with the suction cup tool, I'm too worried they will just chuck up the valves in a drill and not lube the stems or guides very good if at all. Besides, if I do it I can mark that off the bucket list!

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Subscribed

89fast5oh

I kind of wish I went with a vortec HSR instead of a LTR setup. Cost was the only factor but in my case it was cheaper to go LTR because I got a set of siamesed extrude hone ported SLP runners for free.

gbettner

iTrader: (2)

Valve springs,retainers, locks, seals, and install height micrometer tool ordered and on the way.

Now I'm shut down for a little while while I wait on the next big snow plow check.

Next on the list is....

1.6 Roller rockers, I need to do some research, I like the ultra pro mags but not sure if they are self aligning or not and if not how to make them work.

Off to searching the forum some more.
Any suggestions are welcome!

Ultra Pro Magnum™ Roller Rocker Arms: Chevy; 3/8" Stud, 1.6 Ratio Part: 1602-12 Price:

Product Representation: Actual part may vary based on configuration ordered.

$251.03

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-1618-16/overview/

redneckjoe

do your heads have screw-in studs?

gbettner

iTrader: (2)

No, don't have screw in studs but I researched it and it looks very easy. The only problem I have is when tap bosses for studs, if I decide to go with guide plates do I have to have a machine shop machine down the bosses to avoid rocker pivot clearance issues? Or is their plenty of room? I THINK if I run the ultra pro mags they are all NON self alighning and need guide plates but not 100%sure. I don't want to assume anything on clearances.

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

Honestly, for a moderate build, I'd stick with the pressed-in studs and S/A rockers and save the bucks.
I run non-S/A's and guideplates with 7/16" studs on my 7000 rpm motor, but plenty of guys have been running 130#/400# seat/open springs and spinning to 6500 on the iron head LT1's with the stock pressed in studs without issues for many years. The only ones I know of that pulled studs were cases where they didn't do due diligence like checking for sufficient rocker slot clearance for the lift they were running.
You need to get the spring recommendation from Lunati for that cam; but I'm just guessing it doesn't require more than those numbers I mentioned above.

gbettner

iTrader: (2)

Checked with Lunati and the spring selection is optimal! The tech guy excellent choice.

Good info on the rockers/ guide plates. I'll stick with self aligning roller rockers and pressed in studs. Do the ultra pro mags come in self aligning version 1.6 ratio?If not, what's a good choice?

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

Maybe I should back up a step on the rocker/stud advice above. For mild builds like this, I've been able to pick up used cheap full roller rockers from people that have moved up the ladder in rpm/power output, so I've kept the valvetrain very low cost.
However, if I had to buy new quality rockers like the Ultra Pro Mags you're considering, I think I'd go ahead with a setup that could be transferred to a more potent setup in the future if you ever desire. ie. 7/16" studs, non S/A rockers, guideplates.
So, unless you can find a good deal on some used 3/8" SA rockers where you trust their history, consider that.
Running mild spring pressures, I don't see an issue with aluminum rockers. I've put over 200k on the GMPP 1.6 rockers without a problem.

gbettner

iTrader: (2)

Ok so back to my original question....

Does anyone know if there is adequate clearance in between the bottom of the rocker arm and the screw in stud if you add guide plates underneath? Or is machining required on the bosses? That would be AWFUL if it was found out after heads were installed and setting valve lash!

I might look around at some of the cheaper ones but a little weary of the cheap aluminum Chinese bargain sets.

redneckjoe

i would get screw-in studs. having one pull loose really sucks. its cheap insurance.
pretty sure you need machining for guideplates. i'd probably get screw-in studs and run self-aligning rockers. but thats a call you got to make.

lots of good info in here;
http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showth...t=56505&page=2

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

the bosses have to be machined and you will need to use screw in studs.

gbettner

iTrader: (2)

Well I'll throw that around a little more then make a decision.

In the meantime, after reading HSR threads it looks like I'll have clearance issues with my large dizzy and the stealth ram. I have an extra TBI small dizzy in the garage I think. Is it compatible? Just have to splice some wires or do I have to get one with different guts?

If anyone can help let me know. Otherwise I'll do some more searching after work today. Thanks!

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Its just a matter of changing the connecter, the wire colors match up to the icm in the exact same order. Or you can easly make a conversion pigtail. If you want me to crimp on the connecters send me the pigtail you snipped off the tbi harness
And buy this.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Weather-Pack-Weathertight-4-Pin-Weatherpack-Kit-20-18-/370517905718?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item5644969136&vxp=mtr

gbettner

iTrader: (2)

Cool!

Update from machine shop...... guy called wanting more money before any more work is performed. No biggie, I understand but they could have been a little nicer about it.
I told them I decided I needed press in studs removed, tapped for screw in studs, and bosses machined down for guideplates. They quoted me 125.00 so doesn't sound too bad.
I gotta get the guideplates and 7/16"studs ordered asap so they can measure stacked parts to insure stock height after machining bosses.

Hopefully the next plow check comes soon! This is a little stressful!

gbettner

iTrader: (2)

I looked around a little and not really finding what I'm looking for. I don't have rockers yet but could someone tell me or suggest a matched "kit" that includes 7/16" studs and guideplates for standard size pushrods? I need to get these ordered but don't want to waste money or order wrong thing.

redneckjoe

you could try alex's again?

http://www.alexsparts.com/rocker-stu...-guide-plates/

here's adjustable guideplates if you want to run them;
http://www.alexsparts.com/adjustable...universal-sbc/

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

Hey Bettner just a heads up,
couple machine shops near my house have a "stud removing press" they use and none of them would touch my vortec heads because they had broken stud bosses on almost every one they ever tried. I put spacers under the nut at my house and ran the impact down on them and got them all out no problem. Once you start taking them out, you will realize why you should install screw in studs. Amazing they dont come out with stock springs but defiantly wouldnt trust them with stiffer ones.
I would ask they if they have successfully done this before letting them ruin one of your heads.

gbettner

iTrader: (2)

*******, great link but I can't order, says something about no longer available. I'll have to keep looking or find a way to order separately. That was exactly what I was looking for though. Nice and low cost.

Keoman, thanks for the heads up. I think I might just get the heads and remove myself, then take them to a different machine shop to mill the bosses. Then I can get the guide blocks and tap and have the satisfaction of doing it myself anyways.