InfinityShade

Hello, I am now the proud owner of my first camaro and it just so happens to be an 84 4 speed manual with a Iron duke. Now i know the little four cylinder isn't going to give me a huge amount of power but i am really loving 35 -40 miles to the gallon in a camaro.

I have recently been considering putting a 350 in the car or something a bit smaller and was wondering if it is "worth" it. My other thought was to restore the car (because it is all original) and then i could put a small turbo on my 4 cylinder for a bit more power.

So here is the question. What would be more fun? A 4 cylinder iron duke turbo camaro or a 350 camaro (also considering Inline six)? In the long run i get the feeling the 4 cylinder will cost me less. Any thoughts guys?

Damon

About the time you put enough boost into an Iron Duke to have fun, it breaks. V8 is going to be WAY cheaper and WAY more fun.

fireburdluvr85

Would be interesting to see. Say run 7lbs just to be safe.

eseibel67

Just keep it like it is. Iron Duke 4 speed is cool combination. If you want more performance, get something else.

dmccain

iTrader: (2)

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/images/smilies/yup.gif

InfinityShade

I love it the way it is. I just want a little more out of it. Its the first gen iron duke so it doesn't have the stabilizers for the vibration and its throttle body injection. I'm wondering if i should just set it up for fuel injection or go with a corroborator. I'm not looking to make a super car i just want to get it build so it will last forever and give a bit more performance (i live in a hilly area. I lose a bit of power going up and down all these hills. Thats why i was considering a turbo). I was also thinking about doing one of those conversions to get ionized (i believe that was the correct term) air intake for better mileage and a slight power increase.

drdave88

iTrader: (3)

Are you talking about putting one of those "tornados" on your car?

BASSETT IROC 85

iTrader: (2)

Drive that dude as it is. Its to cool and they are not many left. It will probably bust a piston if you hotrod it much.

zenish

I need two Camaros,the one that I have and one with the iron duke and a five speed.40 mpg would rule.

InfinityShade

Short update and a few questions. Ive replaced the big things and given the car more stability. It turns out a bad crossmember mount under the tranny was robbing me of power. Ive also done a considerable amount of research on upgrades. I found out that the iron duke has a 3.0 lt brother. Turns out a 140 HP 3.0L Mercruiser engine is nearly a direct bolt in upgrade to replace the original 2.5L Iron Duke. Im not sure about 83 84 but i believe that all the internals are interchangable. So the question is, can i rebuild my iron duke with a majority of mercruiser internal upgrades? Or can i just drop one in with little effort. (trans turned out to be a sag 4 not t4)

novaderrik

i'd look for a more modern 4 cylinder to put in it: like a supercharged or turbocharged ecotec out of a Cobalt or something like that.. maybe find a wrecked Solstice and get the drivetrain out of one of those since it's rwd, i think some of them got the turbo motor..

InfinityShade

What kind of changes would i have to make to the camero? Keep in mind this is a daily driver. I want to swap easy but upgrade. Then i can build the duke the way i want it.

novaderrik

honestly, the Iron Duke is a good, reliable engine for fwd econoboxes. they get moderately ok mileage and run forever, but there is no real good way to make any power out of them and expect them to hold together. their only real benefit is that they are lighter than a V8, which helps handling, but i believe the 305 had a higher mpg rating than the Iron Duke in F body applications...

apie2546

I wish I got over 30 mpg

InfinityShade

I think i could get a lot out of it with the upgraded crank, rods and some port matching. Id like to build it so i can run some boost. But i want to keep it mostly original. Basically i want the car to be the way it should have been. I have a goal and im just seeking advice in that direction.

dbrochard

iTrader: (3)

If you want decent gas mileage, stick with the 4 cyl.
Otherwise, go V8.


My personal thoughts are that I think it would be really cool if you did what novaderrik said, drop in a newer turbo 4 cylinder. I doubt many have done it before, but take a new mustang for example, I'm pretty sure they are getting 310 or so horsepower with a turbo 4 cylinder. That is nearly twice as much as my stock L03 TBI V8. I would find a RWD turbo 4 banger and put the drivetrain in your car, and you could even have it be a daily driver

InfinityShade

Im scared if i pull the stock duke ill regret it in 10 years. Third gen camaros are at the point where they could become as collectable as older camaros. The off the wall models end up being the most valuable and my camaro is one of the 10k original iron dukes produced in canada in 84. I dont want to kick myself in the teeth like my father does for selling his half year mustangs.

dbrochard

iTrader: (3)

If you want original, I would modify the current motor but keep the old parts, that way if you have any regrets in the future you can go back

Formula 305

People collect the Irocs, the Z28s, the GTAs & TTAs. A 4 cylinder camaro won't be worth any sizable sum of money in the next 10 years or the next 100 years. Don't believe me, look at Nova's. 6 cylinders fetch less money than a 10 year old Honda, while the SS Nova's are holding strong and have nowhere to go from up.

And the Iron Duke was never a high performance engine, trying to build it to any amount of power and have it hold together would cost nothing short of a small fortune. Small blocks are cheap!

InfinityShade

Well if thats the case your telling me i have a shell i can do what ever i want with and im not hurting my value? Ive considered rotary engines. Have you herd of Atkins rotary?

Formula 305

Whoa whoa whoa, back the crazy train up a minute here. I thought you wanted something reliable & efficient??? Rotary engines are neither of those things.

But yeah, in my opinion there's not much you can do to hurt your resale value... A rotary may limit your market when you want to sell tho

InfinityShade

I was being facetious. Although Atkins Rotary is well know for his performance rotary engines. Mozda builds theirs to break. Anyway, this is what i want, im set on it i just want to know if i'm correct. 2.5 lt (151gm) iron duke with 3.0 Mercruiser internals? Are they comparable?

Formula 305

The stroke is longer for the Mercruiser engine, bore is the same. With the longer stroke the block may have to be relieved for the larger crank, but I'm not certain.

If your serious about this why not swap the entire Mercruiser engine in? Externally they are probably identical. To swap 3.0L internals into a 2.5L it may be a lot more work than its worth, where as an entire engine swap is a days work.

InfinityShade

Sounds logical. Id like to do that but im unsure if if 3.0 will mount to the 60 degree bellhousing and mesh with the 4 speed sag. This is one of the first older cars ive had to work on but my engineering experience has carried me along. I still have gaps to fill like gear ratio, compression, etc.

This is the source of my interest.http://forums.amceaglesden.com/index.php?topic=38412.0
he is switching out an older model though.

Is there any othet engine that would bolt right i and be an easy upgrade?

Formula 305

Bellhousing & flywheel bolts should bolt right up

InfinityShade

Believe it or not ive decided on rotary. I just got in contact with a company thats building rx7 2 and 3 rotar engines from scratch. They also have a bellhousing for my tranny. I get my cake and i can eat it with 200hp and some nice mpg. Rotary eats everything... how ever much it hurts to admit v8s are way out dated and drink too much.

Someone did the cobal swap already
.

Formula 305

Hate to break it to ya bud but stock vs stock, RX7s & LS1s get close to the same highway mileage.... City on the rotary is a little better but meh...

What gears do you plan on putting in the rear end?

Edit: When I say LS1, I mean LS1 F-bodies

InfinityShade

Not sure yet. Ill probably grab a positraction rear and work from there. It really depends on if i go with 2 or 3 rotars and if i do turbo. Id like to drop it in no boost the build up later. How fast this gets done depends on if i end up working for him too. These aren't your standard rotary engines either. "Atkins rotary" if you want to see what im talking about.

InfinityShade

Am i going to need a custom designed Engine mount? I'd like to know so I can design one before i even get to the engine. Also, I need to know how to figure out how much my transmission can take. Where would I find all stress test results for transmissions?

Formula 305

Yes, you'll need custom mounts. You should be able to find the maximum recommended torque that transmission can take on Google.

cuisinartvette

This is your daily driver?

Go buy another car while you mess around with the swap its going to be down for awhile.

Personally Id leave it as is get it freshened up if need be and enjoy a reliable driver with no payments
its a collosal waste of time trying to get a 4 banger to run.

These cars are becoming collectable period if they are clean even the base model nothing optioned ones. It will still climb in value period.

Everyones different but Id pay more for a bone stock clean original that didnt have everything I wanted vs something modded to death with god knows how many hands on it that may have done things wrong.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

A car becomes "collectible" because it's something people want to remember. It was cool and "desirable" AT THE TIME, it recalls something fond about the days gone by, it was an exceptional accomplishment for the times, or that sort of thing.

People in general, that is; as in, the general public. Or at least some significant slice of it.

Can't think of one single thing about a 4-cyl one of these cars that fits into ANY of those categories. NOT ONE.

A 4-cyl car will NOT become "collectible" just because it's a 4-cyl. It might slowly increase in value, although less long-term than inflation (i.e. a net LOSS of value), if it is relatively pristine. However, if you took 2 cars in IDENTICAL condition (yeah I know how tough that would be to measure) one a desirable car from the same era such as an Indy pace car or a L69 car and the other a 4-cyl car, it's not hard to figure out which will more likely generate interest, as in BUYERS AND MONEY.

"Preserving" the 4-cyl on account of hallucinating it has some kind of "value" is just that, a HALLUCINATION.

That said, if a 4-cyl is what YOU want YOUR car to be, and YOU like it, and YOU want to keep it a 4-cyl, there's nothing wrong with that. It's probably a FAR better plan than all that "rotary" crap, which in the end will end up being an old bottom of the line plain-Jane car that's been gutted and hacked up and destroyed in some weird unrecoverable way, a motor that doesn't run, and a basket of parts that don't go together, being sold as parts for a few pennies on the dollar, like most other similar projects.

But don't expect THE BUYING PUBLIC (i.e. "value") to share in your HALLUCINATION of ANY of this being "desirable" or "collectible". Not the 4-cyl car in original trim, not a Camaro with a Mazda motor graunched into it even if it actually accidentally ever works, and most of all, not the gutted shell of a totally unremarkable forgettable car and a basket of hacked-up non-functional misfit parts. Again, if that's what YOU want for the sake of YOU having it, that's one thing; expecting the rest of the world to agree, is QUITE another matter altogether.

Formula 305

Give this guy a cookie!

cuisinartvette

but what if you were the only guy in town that had a 73 LTD 2 dr with real woodgrain trim? They arent making them anymore. You could wear a pocket protekt0r and stuff and be the ultimate 70s nerd

Actually stumbled across a forum for those by accident believe it or not

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

There's a forum for just about everything...

Ever heard of 4chan.org? I could not believe my eyes when somebody showed me some of the stuff on there. Like, there's AN ENTIRE FORUM dedicated to adult male devotees of My Little Pony. (I abuse the term "adult" loosely) Not sure I even want to see what those people are like, in case they ever put down the video game controller and step out of mom's basement for the first time in the decade since they left high school.

So it doesn't surprise me that there's a forum for pocket protectors.

InfinityShade

I'm a vary picky engineer. It will be designed and built to be reversible so i can put the original engine back in and transfer the rotary to another car in the case (for any crazy reason) the iron duke becomes collectible. I don't plan on attempting a swap to rotary anytime soon though. I'm still outlining and collecting information.

InfinityShade

Ive reconsidered keeping the duke in light of recent descoveries. Im now searching for a new camshaft that will add power and support the addition of a turbo.

Is this what im looking for?http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cc...w/make/pontiac

InfinityShade

Did i miss something...
Here is a link to the 85 Fiero U Crankshafts. which i had no clue they did a U.
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/se...5&make=Pontiac

And here is the link to the 84 camaro cranks which is really what i wanted to ask about. All the crankshafts from 84-88 were the same design? There really isn't a upgrade crank i can just drop in out there?
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/se...make=Chevrolet