Gary2424

Hey guys I'm having a starting problem see my iroc is my DD and me and my gf were on the way to look at prom dresses for me senior prom and when we left it cranked up no trouble ran perfectly fine the whole way there no spits or spats or anything when we get there I pulled up put in park and turned it off we got out and walked no more than 10 feet found out they were closed -.- so we go back to the car and try and crank it.... Nothing... I instantly thought "VATS is acting up" so I tried it again no security light but I still have it the five minutes and tried again nothing.... It wouldn't click, try to spin over, nothing just silence... So I called my dad he's a big car wizard and he said it sounded like the starter so we got it home and after much monkeying around, cussing, and farting XD, we got it out and hooked at battery up to it and used a screwdriver to test it to see if the starter is locked up.. It's not the starter flywheel shot and spun and everything... So then we thought well must be battery nothing else it could be so we tested it... 12 volts so my dad said it could be a slew of things at this point unfortunatly as I said before it's my DD and I miss my baby 😟😟😢😢 so many mustangs have gone unembarrassed since it's been broke down and I wanted to get a few other expert opinions on the matter just to see if I could speed things up so thanks for reading my long *** post guys I really apreciate it and all the help thanks

paulo57509

Just because a battery shows 12v just sitting there doesn't mean it's good.

Did you attempt to jump start it?

Gary2424

We have not as a update I went and got a new starter the old one was in rough shape anyway on my way home to install it now once that done we will try jumping it off though we did get another battery we know is good and tried it before we removed the starter with the same results

Joe Tag

iTrader: (4)

airblaine

disconnect the wires at the starter solenoid and check for a short when you turn the key. dont just throw the logical parts at it you will pull your hair out and bleed money. gotta troubleshoot it out.

Gary2424

We narrowed it down now to where we are sure that something is preventing the ignition from sending a charge to the starter we checked neutral safety switch it's good, we havnt checked the ignition switch yet, and we noticed something a little unusual ok so when u turn the key usually all the lights in the dash cluster will light up and go away including the VATS security light, now if VATS is locking up the car the security light will remain on and when u try to crank the VATS light will flash indicating that VATS is engaging, however when we turn the key over now the security lights don't even come on to begin with, where as the would normally come up for a few seconds with the rest of the lights now they do nothing... Idk if that helps anyone or it may be we are just seeing things but I figured I'd metion that part

Lurbie

iTrader: (3)

Do you have voltage at the neutral safety switch? Use a voltmeter to measure the exact voltage. The PPL wire goes from there to the Starter so if you've already verified the voltage through the neutral safety switch then you've got a connection issue at the starter or a bad wire from the switch to the starter.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

https://www.thirdgen.org/vats_passkey_system/

Gary2424

Ok we will test voltage there and I'll post it on here

hdis2002

iTrader: (1)

I had a similar problem. The only difference is mine would start after sitting about 30 minutes. Turns out it was the hot wire from the battery to the starter. Replaced it and the problem magically went away. Hope your problem is that simple. Of course it took me a couple of months to figure it out. Good luck.

Gary2424

If the neutral safety switches Purple wire goes straight to the starter where does the power come into the NSS at (which wire-we were assuming the yellow with white strip) and where does the power come from..... The ignition?

Lurbie

iTrader: (3)

I don't have access to my work laptop right now or I'd try to pull up a schematic for you, but in general the power comes from the ignition switch to the starter (aka VATS) relay, to the neutral safety switch, to the starter.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

The vats relay is under the drivers side kick panel. It may have a black buetal taper over it. On the opposing sides when unplugged is a yellow or green and purple wire. These are larger in gauge. Jumper across these wire and see if the engine cranks over.

Gary2424

As a update we checked the starter signal and from the battery the starter gets signal but from the ignition nothing and we replaced the vats relay and still nothing, we bridged the neutral saftey switch to check and see if it was bad (cause if it was and u bridge it and the car would start granted it would start in any gear but it would start) and still I did nothing meaning the NSS is good to, and while it may mean nothing we poked a wire in the wiring harness and when I turn over the key not crank position but just turn it over the test light, lights up so that means the ignition is sending a signal and that the ignition is good so that was just a update thanks for all the help so far I hope this helps in tracking down the problem

Gary2424

Also I just checked the purple wire on the NSS (neutral saftey switch) with a test light and no current so does that mean the problem is before this point here

1991_RS

IIRC, the vats relay gets a ground when the vats is activated. Is it possible that the ground on the relay is corroded? Have someone turn the key to the start position while you watch the leads with a multimeter or test light to see if you're getting anything at the relay.

Also, is the fuel pump kicking on for a few seconds when the key is first turned to the ON position? (You might have to open the gas cap and listen). I doubt that's the actual problem, but if it's not kicking on, it might lead you to the underlying cause.

(I always try to eliminate the obvious and the "free" and easy diagnostics first. That way, I can cross those off the list, and if I'm lucky, sometimes one of those actually ends up being the culprit.)

Gary2424

We did replace the vats relay but I'll check it with a multimeter tomorrow after school and yes i checked to make sure the fuel pump primed a day or 2 ago and it did

Lurbie

iTrader: (3)

Also keep in mind, new does not mean good. Unfortunately, you can chase your tail many times assuming a new part is a good part. Testing or bypassing is the best way to prove a part is not your problem.

Lurbie

iTrader: (3)

Get yourself a voltmeter, even if it's one of those free ones from Harbor Freight. I can make a test light look pretty bright with a 9v battery out of a smoke detector, but that 9v battery won't start your car.

Gary2424

Ok we gota multimeter I'm assuming I need to hVe it on the 20V setting right

Formula 305

When my VATS module went bad it wouldn't light the SECURITY light. Did you make sure the light bulb in the cluster for the SECURITY light isn't burnt out?

If the light bulb is good and your still not getting the light it may be a module, which is located somewhere in the abyss behind the dash. I've had my dash 60% out and still have not seen this mysterious box.

FYI: VATS relay is NOT the same as the module

Gary2424

Yea we narrowed it down to if it's a wiring issue somewhere under the dash or ignition, and VATS is still a possibility today when I go to my dad he is gonna work on bypassing vats even if vats isn't wht locking it up I'd like to have it bypasse anyway it has given problems in the past and while he is doing that my auto tech teacher gave me a diagram of the starting system and ima hunt and test wires/relays

Gary2424

As far as the voltmeter goes I'm assuming the 20V setting will is high enough to test anything in the starting system even considering it's one of the highest output systems probably the highest

Lurbie

iTrader: (3)

Yes the 20V scale on DCV is the correct selection.


(just FYI)
Regarding your dad bypassing the VATS... you can bypass the relay, but without PROM modifications you are not going to be able to truly bypass the fuel injection enable circuit from the VATS module to the ECM.

Gary2424

Well guys we checked my computor and it flashed a code 46 which for those who can't remeber is code for VATS module so we have identified the problem now we need to fix it again thanks for all the help ik sometimes I can be a little difficult to help ppl especially someone who is 17 granted I know more than the average teenager but I get it can be frustrating so thanks for the pateience

Formula 305

The best way is to turn off VATS in the computer. You can probably buy a chip offline

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Gary2424

Hey guys so it is certainly vats that had it locked up we are sure now and I found a module online that totally bypasses it, it includes a lifetime warrenty and 30 money back, but it is still gonna be about 250 bucks granted that's a lot cheaper than it would be to take it to chevy or a computor expert but 250$ by all means ain't chump change so I was wondering does anyone know a cheaper way also guys I don't want a jumbled mess of wires if I bypass it I want it to look clean an proffesinal so please I'd perfer to stay away from the Afro engineering (no offense to anyone) unless it would look clean and proffesinal

Formula 305

Dude, read the post above yours. Having VATS tuned out is $30 bucks and all you have to do is take the old chip out & put the new one in, no wiring at all, easy as pie.

Gary2424

If it's as easy as spending 30 bucks and everything is all hunky dory then I would see 101 people have problems and 1000 different solutions I can bypas the starter enable module no problem I did that in 5 minutes easy peasy but that's not all of if I have to get to my computor because VATS locks up my injectors as well so the car won't run and so far the only three ways that iv seen that perminatly eleminates that problem Is
1. Buy the module I mentioned ($250)
2. Have a computor expert or GM work the computor ($500+)
3. (If I was a computor/wiring pro) rewire the whole damn VATS system to bypass not only the key decoder but my PROM a well because that's where the heart of VATS lives
In short I doubt highly that the largest, most annoying, and most expensive problem with 80-90 GM's can be perminatly fixed forever for 30 bucks if so I'd have heard of it by now because iv read every article, forum, post, guide, and seen every video you can possibly imagine that has even the slightest amount to do with VATS so not trying to be rude js that if that were the case I certainly woulda found it by now

Gary2424

I know enough now to tell you tht if the solution to VATS is to "trick" the computor it won't work and if it does it won't last forever I know a guy has the same problem his solution was to get the resistance of the key and make a set up that bypasses the key decoder module but he said around every 6 months he has to go and spend another week without his car and $35 (not including towing few) to have the setup redone because the problem isn't just the code reader (input signal) it's VATS itself within the computor (the reading of the input and sending of the output) so the only real way to fix it would be that mabye find a module or chip of some kind that sends a constant "ok, yup everything is good" signal the module I found does that unfortunatly the price tag gives me pause so I'm assuming in the massive interweb someone has to have found a good, solid, working module/chip that will fix it

Gary2424

And I'm willing to take your word for it don't get me wrong I bealive u what's the name of the chip? Where can I find it?

couchmotors

before i swapped out my v-6 for a big block my VATS was bypassed. the module was removed and the 2 wires that go up to the key were hard wired together(spliced) and the vats relay jumped and i drove the car like that for 60,000 miles and it worked. i did not do this it like that when i got the car. but it worked.

couchmotors

but before you do this i would buy the prom chip. just to see. also did you check all fuzes including the one in the harness near the battery.

Gary2424

Yep all fuses checked and good and alright any idea how much a new PROM chip would be?

Formula 305

Yeah, VATS lives in the PROM, the PROM controls the injectors and there is literally a box in the programming that you click to turn the VATS off.

Or you could get the box, that works too. All the box does is generate a square wave of a certain frequency that tells the computer it is OK to fire the injectors.

If you want to try the module route that's fine, I did it to my car and it works, but I sure as hell didn't pay $250 for my box, it was more like $45 shipped to my door. I'm telling you from experience the box is not the best way to go about this.

Also, if you disable your PROM, you may have issues, seeing as how that controls your fuel map & ignition timing. You may want to do some digging in the DIY PROM section of the forums before you go messing with something you don't fully understand.
http://https://www.thirdgen.org/foru...t-disable.html

Lurbie

iTrader: (3)

Now that you've figured out it's definitely VATS, I don't understand your lack of faith in everyone else telling you how cheaply Tuned Performance can help you??? Here's what I suggest. Send a PM to Tuned Performance with your questions.


If you are stuck on the "too good to be true" thought process, then pay him more LOL, but he is, in basic terms, reprogramming your PROM and that is a permanent process. I have no idea what this $250 fix is that you found online, and it's your car and your money, but there's no way I'd spend that kind of money when literally EVERY PROM burner out there can burn a PROM to disable VATS.


As for your friend's "trick" of the computer. It's no trick, many people do that successfully and it works just fine. All your doing is relocating the resistor from the key to another spot in the exact same circuit. If he's got repetitive problems, well they did it wrong VATS is not that complicated, in fact, it's extremely simple. The only complicated part of this comes with the VATS module sending a specific Hz signal to the ECM, this is what allows the ECM to enable the fuel injectors. What any PROM burner will do for you is go into the PROM and flip a bit that tells the ECM it does not have to see or look for that 50Hz signal before it enables fuel injectors. It is that simple. Hope that helps you choose, if it were me I'd have someone disable it through the PROM.

Gary2424

^ both fiasable options assuming I was gonna go with getting the module do u have a link I can use to find a cheaper module
(Also the module I found is made by newrockies inc it's called the "pro module" look it up if your interested in seeing where the $250 option came from)

Gary2424

Also this "box" your talking about is it like a on/off switch for VATS and if so where exactally is it located and how do I access it

Formula 305

http://www.bakerelectronix.com/products_vats/

Gary2424

Thanks so if u had this have u noticed any faults or problems with it

Formula 305

I haven't had any problems with this since I put it in years ago.

Lurbie

iTrader: (3)

As a technician who KNOWS GM security systems, here’s what is wrong with the Newrockies statements:

• There are more than 3 components in the various systems they list, granted they’re trying to keep it simple for those untechnical customers, but this is not an accurate blanket statement.
  
• Saying that each of these components only lasts 7 years is plain stupid and ignorant, building up the fears of the unknowing and non-technical customer.
  
• Saying next that the Theft module is the most vulnerable, contradicts previous statements that all parts fail in 7 years.
  
• They then go on to say how there bypass module is better than your VATS module is wrong as well.For VATS (PassKey) specifically, the true most common failure is the two wires at the lock cylinder.
• All they are doing is telling you that you don’t need to put in a resistor that matches your key, because they’ve done that for you in their box that constantly sends out the 50Hz signal to the ECM, that still is not bypassed because if it was they wouldn’t have to sell you a box that sends the ECM a signal.
  
• This whole site pushes the fears of the unknown to those that don’t understand the simplicity of the system.Re-read that page that explains how it works, paying attention to how many times they try to scare their customers by saying the car can leave you stranded at random and end up in the junkyard or cost you thousands in “guessed” parts replacements.It’s companies like this that really **** me off because instead of just coming up with another alternative solution and selling it at a reasonable cost, they try to scare their customers into overpaying and not getting anything better in the end.

Gary2424

Good alright yea thanks for the info I'll show this to my dad see what he thinks

Gary2424

^you may have a point hell I'd be a easy target for them because idk **** bout VATS I can do most other stuff just fine but I have not the first clue on VATS I just recently started even understanding how it works

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

If there is anything I can do to assist shoot me a pm, Rbob didn't like a thread I posted in 2013 so I deleted it Saturday . His pont of view is I revealed all the workings of vats and how to bypass it. I can understand his pont of view to allow a theif knowledge how to steal our cars. There are still ways to completely get rid of the vats but maintain a secerity system, in programming a binary switcher or a momentary switch on the vats signal line from the bakers box . This is the same type of device but cheaper .
http://m.ebay.com/itm/281567207398?nav=SEARCH