EDGE

I just finished a T5 swap and had to get the smaller starter. I know that's not the issue. Anyway, it barely or will not crank a hot engine. As a matter of fact it had a slight hesitation on a cold one. I took it back today and got another starter, same thing happened. Could it be the battery? It went stone dead a few times over a very cold winter. It's holding a charge but I know that means nothing. Is there a particular order the large wires should be stacked on the starter bolt? I don't see how that would matter. Just looking for suggestions. Timing is set to factory spec, and has not been touched.

aliceempire

iTrader: (14)

I had a similar issue years ago. The smaller style starter would get heat soak from my headers (same headers as yours) that got pretty hot from poor fuel distribution from a TBI and a poorly tuned "custom" chip. My cure was a tpi and GOOD tune.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

The starter is totally inadequate on these cars.

Years ago I gave up on stock starters altogether and put a "mini-starter" on my car. It was revolutionary how much difference it made.

Get your money back for the stock one if you can, and get one from Summit or some such.

EDGE

Well I tried a new battery, re-torque the starter wires, cleaned both the block ground and the ground wire, and shimmed the starter. It's much better but still hesitates on initial crank with a hot engine. I guess these parts stores remans are just junk. Perhaps the Hitachi starters from Summit are the way to go. I really don't know what else I can do.

Scorpner

iTrader: (4)

FWIW, I have a mini starter and what they call a Heat Shield Wrap. I don't know if they make them for standard sized starters though. If they do it may be worth a try.

Heat stress is always bad for electronic components.

anthony64ss

iTrader: (1)

The LT1 style mini starters are great. They bolt right up, are smaller, and have way more power. you can get them at parts houses with a lifetime warranty. Try a search its a pretty common upgrade.

Drac0nic

Check your initial timing. If you have too much timing you'll get hot crank issues.

EDGE

The pisser for me is, I got rid of a perfectly good starter that never, ever gave me an issue. It was the big one for the auto. It was too large for the T5. Now I have this ridiculous problem because of junk. I never touched my timing, although maybe it's moved over the years so I suppose it's worth a check. I've also ordered the Powermaster 9100. Hopefully that will end this nonsense.

FRMULA88

Don't rush to blame the starter.

A poorly grounded system will do the same thing & so will poorly connected old/damaged/corroded battery cables.

if you are using side posts make sure you have not stripped the holes in the battery.

A quick test with a multi-meter will tell you if you have a ground issue.
with the car running you should be seeing over 14V at the battery if not you have a potential grounding issue. (could also be corroded wiring)

You can also check for voltage drop to the starter.

A fully charged battery at rest should have at least 12.6 V.

Then test the voltage at the starter when cranking.

The starter should be getting full voltage from the battery, if there is more than 1V difference (voltage drop) you have a grounding / battery cable issue.
The starter is grounded by it's connection to the engine block, the problem is most likely you are missing a ground cable from the engine to the chassis to complete the path to ground from the starter to the battery.

Make sure the battery cables are intact and not shorted out on the exhaust manifold/header.

Check the condition of the negative battery cable, it should be connected to the chassis, if the connection is corroded or the cables are old you should clean the ground connection and replace the cables.
Use 2 ga. cable. The smaller 4 ga cable can build up too much resistance when hot.

the engine should have a heavy gage ground strap from the block and or cylinder head to the chassis.

On my car I installed new ground straps; #4 on the passenger side cylinder head to the chassis & 0/1 from the block to the chassis on the driver side. problem solved.

FRMULA88

properly grounding the system is very important.

The starter draws the most current.

The alternator produces the most current

If these 2 components do not have good paths to ground
all sorts of problems are possible.

This is now my voltage with the engine running and both radiator fans on. Prior to adding the engine grounds and replacing my battery cables it was only 13.8V
( the alternator was not charging the battery at full capacity)

I no longer have a hot start issue, it fires right up with no starter hesitation whatsoever.

I am using a MSD starter.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

The negative battery cable SHOULD NOT go to the chassis, PRECISELY BECAUSE the starter is the path flowing the highest current, and it DOES NOT involve the chassis in ANY MANNER WAY SHAPE OR FORM.

It should go to the engine block, since the highest current path in the car is the starter, and the correct system design puts the fewest and shortest wires and connections in the path: pos batt term to red batt cable, to starter, through starter, to block, then from ???? to ????, then back to the neg batt term.

Obvious answer to the question marks is, "from block to neg batt cable".

Since the case of the alt is connected to the block, having the neg batt cable properly connected to the block guarantees the best possible connection for the neg side of the alt, as well. Then the big post on the alt should have a large low-resistance path back to the pos batt term, to carry the charging current and the current demanded by the car's accessories. The factory accomplishes this via a second red wire off the pos batt cable term, smaller than the main batt cable but still one of the largest wires in the whole car, which goes to the alt post.

This is why the factory connects the neg batt cable to the block. (or other part that makes a good connection to it, such as a large accessory bracket)

A good ground from block to chassis is extremely important as well however. Since the entire load of the car proper (apart from the starting, charging, and engine electrical functions) has to get from the car body back to the neg batt terminal somehow, the connection from block to chassis is critical. The factory accomplishes this with the braid strap from the pass side head to the firewall, and in some cars, a second wire off the neg batt cable term, similar to the one for the alt on the pos term. However since this carries FAR less current than the starter (by a factor of 5 to 10), it makes sense that it should be secondary to the current path the starter requires.

FRMULA88

The electrical systems in modern automobiles have the negative battery terminal connected directly to the frame/chassis of the vehicle.
This is typically a large integral stud or bolt close to the battery which the negative cable attaches to.
The engine is grounded to chassis with ground straps.
The body/frame/chassis of the vehicle serves as the return path for the entire electrical system of the vehicle.

Older vehicles did ground the battery cable to the block for the starter & alternator.
The reason for the switch to a frame/chassis to battery ground connection is the increase in electronics require a more secure ground.
This is also done as an "upgrade" in older vehicles that have added high output stereos and other accessories.

A trunk mounted battery follows the same concept:
The negative cable is connected to the frame/ chassis in the trunk, the engine block is grounded to the chassis at the front.
There is no need to run 15'-20' of heavy gage negative cable from the trunk to the engine block since the chassis is the path to ground for the battery.

I won't even get into how the chassis has much more surface area than the battery cable, which is why it is a better path to ground.

EDGE

I removed the ground from the block and took a die grinder and cleaned the block surface until I could see my own reflection. I did the same to the cable, which is in excellent condition. Everything is clean and tight on both ends, including the positive lead as well. I shimmed the starter .045. I've also replaced the battery as the old one had gone flat a few times. The condition got better with each thing I did. The car cranks much better now, but every so often when hot, the starter still really struggles. Sometimes it cranks with no issues whatsoever. I've ordered a heat shield blanket for it. i don't want to keep pulling the damn thing out. I hate disturbing the exhaust system. Asking for a leak by doing that too many times.

EDGE

Well I guess I made the big mistake of Assuming. Only this time I just made an **** out of me. I checked my timing, and I can't even see the mark. It must have moved over the years. I assumed it would've remained locked solid as I've never touched the distributor.

*UPDATE*

Looks like I was 5 or so degrees advanced over the stock 6 degree base timing. The timing mark was just North of the top of the scale. I guess it migrated over time. Engine seems quite snappy now. Who knows, time will tell if this solved the hot start issue.

FRMULA88

Don't assume because the insulation looks good the wire inside is.

The OEM battery cables were sized for a "stock" application & time will take it's toll and corrode the wire on the inside.

Timing will not creep up if the distributor hold down bolt was/is tight.
BUT an OEM harmonic damper outer shell can come loose from the inner section and creep forward making the "0" mark useless.

Amazing that guys will spend money on everything else but hang on to flimsy 25+ year old OEM battery cables and harmonic dampers.

Throw them out get new larger cables and a 1 pc damper.

I may have not done my repair to the "resident expert's" standards but I solved my problem to my standards and the issue has NOT come back.


I happily returned the starter heat wrap and saved some money too.

EDGE

This all happened the second I changed starters. The 27 year old original never had a hiccup. I had it rebuilt once, 8 years ago. For all I know, I'm the one who set the advance way back when. i just can't remember. Either way, It doesn't appear to have solved my issue. I will however double check the wires for corrosion.

FRMULA88

I hope you get it resolved.

EDGE

Thanks, me too. Aside from wiring, would the starter being to tight against the flywheel cause this? Would things heat up and expand that much? I do get the high pitched zing when I let go of the key. I already have .045 worth of shim in there. The reason I'm leery of a wiring issue, is because this problem began with these two starters. As I mentioned, the original was completely trouble free. I do however have a brand new flywheel. Wondering if that being new, as well as a new pinion gear on a starter is just too tight.

FRMULA88

you want .035 clearance between the flywheel teeth and pinion gear.

A standard paperclip is .035 & makes a great feeler gage when you straighten it out.

Too much clearance will cause the teeth to whine.. normally you don't need to use any shims,, my starter came with shims.. I checked the clearance and thru the shims away HAHA !

Hopefully you got the flywheel installed facing the right direction.

Your starter should be one that can work with either 158 or 163 tooth flywheels/flexplate, otherwise you have another issue if you have mis-matched starter / flywheel setup. I have no experience with manual trans in a 3rd gen.

EDGE

The flywheel can only go on one way. Only one side has the friction surface for the clutch. It's a 153 tooth with the smaller starter to fit the belhousing

FRMULA88

OK,
If I were you I would verify the mini-starter you got is designed to work wit 153 tooth flywheel.

some starters are "flywheel specific" 153 or 168 teeth... some starters are "universal" 153 & 168 teeth.


make sure you have a universal model or a starter made for 153 tooth flywheel.

a mis-matched starter to flywheel will cause all sorts of problem; the teeth will not mesh correctly and no amount of shimming will correct that.

Another thing to check is the wire from the ignition switch.
make sure it is not damaged/corroded and the spade connector fits snug on the starter solenoid. Sometimes this trigger wire can get pinched between the bell-housing and engine block during re-assembly.

cardo0

Stater hot soak. Google it and u will get millions of hits. Its usually much worse with headers. The real cure is a heat shield - not a wrap. If u know anything 'bout thermodynamics u will understand a wrap will hold the heat in once the starter is soaked. I dont know why they even sell them - kinda like a tornado fuel saver i guess.

U need a shield to reflect the radiant heat away and allow some amount of air circulation aroungd the starter or sometimes just the solenoid - the early corvettes used just the solenoid shield. Ensure the metal shield only touches where the it bolts on - small air gap everywhere else. Summit carries a nice shield for the stock full sized starter but dont know if it would even fit a mini starter. U need to shop around and hey, some guys just fab their own from sheet metal.

Good luck.

Scorpner

iTrader: (4)

Yeah, I agree a shield would be optimal because of the air gap on both sides, but in my case there wasn't room for one. From what I recall when I installed mine it helped to protect the wiring as well. I have seen it used on wire loom in other vehicles where it comes close to the exhaust and it does make a difference in those cases. I'll have to remember to check it next time to see if there is a difference in temperature from one side to the other.

EDGE

Solved. Powermaster 9100. Starts every time, hot or cold. I tried the heat shield on the other one, made no difference. For what its worth, since I had it, I installed it on the Powermaste as well.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Glad to hear that what I had offered way back up in post #3 turned out to be the ticket. I wish I would get listened to more. Yes I'm married and have young adult children... for the most part I might as well be the chirping of birds and the braying of beasts, at home as well as here. I should be used to it by now I guess.

Yeah the whole "heat shield" thing is designed to be SOLD, not to actually ACCOMPLISH anything. (besides lighten the wallets of the gullible) Lots of drivel from the gullible shows up on Google searches. I put my noise-filtering intellectual shield up when doing those.

EDGE

Lol. I believed you from the get go. I just was trying out all my options as this mod has cost me enough in unforseen nonsense. Figured if I could avoid a pricy starter then that'd been great. But in the end it is what it is and there was always just one right answer.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

So true.