rb85TA

Get all the information you can( part#'s), a complete list of everything you need to build the budget / junkyard 302. Call the machine shop & get prices on freshening the block ( bore, stress plate hone, line hone cam & crank bores, sonic test & magniflux, i.e. check for cracks and good consistent wall thickness in the cylinders & deck, true decking the block ), as well as resizing the rods, ( of course, after checking them as well) & the crankshaft for proper bearing clearance ( maybe need to be polished, maybe turned ), how much to balance the rotating assembly, how much to check the head's & rebuild them, etc...
I think that if you truly look at how much the "budget " build is really going to cost, by time it's all said & done... you'll find out that you could've bought a decent 383/406 did kit or even a crate engine for the same or less.

rb85TA

But, HELL. .. I had to learn the hard way too, just have fun with it & do what you want to do, cuz in the end. .. you gotta be you & happy with it.

rb85TA

7.0L sticker (427 cubic inches ) , 7.4L (454 cid) , 8.1L (496 cid ) etc...ETC. ..
Yeah, it's awesome when someone has to do a double take at how many liters your 3rd gen is boasting ☺

rb85TA

Good luck & let us know which way ya go with it.

Reborn756

Thanks a lot rb85TA! Any way I go, I'd be getting new heads. So no machine work there. The block and crank on the other hand, that's a different story. My uncle used to go to a guy that only charged like 200 to do a block, and 100 per crank. The last time he took anything to him was in the early 2000s, so who knows what he charges now. All in all, I'm guessing I'll either be on point with a 383 kit, or around 500 over. I'll have to price the both out. Two days ago I was over at the local strip (Beaver Springs) and there was a yellow firebird there, looked like an 82 possibly. The guy stuffed a big block in there, never bothered asking how big. He could close the factory hood and you'd swear you were looking at a 5.0 car. That sucker was NASTY. Ran a low 11 if I recall.

AlkyIROC

I took my block and rotating assembly to the machine shop to get them to balance everything, do all the machine work and put the short block together.

The cost for balancing and machine work all depends on the quality of work. Doesn't matter if it's a SBC or a BBC.

To balance my rotating assembly down to zero grams was around $500. To do all the machine work and assemble the bottom end to give me a fully assembled short block with everything within tolerances was roughly another $1500. That's just the labor and not the thousands of dollars of parts I took to them.

After that I had to install the camshaft, heads etc to finish the engine.

I've put together a few engines and even as a mechanic, I don't have all the proper tools to properly fit everything together and/or make adjustments to make sure everything fits together proper. What do you do if rod bearings are too tight when putting an engine together in your garage? Bearing clearances, rod clearances, cam bearings, decking the block etc, etc. The machine shop did all the precision work. The rest was easy.

It's a full race engine but from top to bottom, parts and labor puts just my engine at around $20,000. There's a lot of high end parts in it but I know it will take all the abuse I can throw at it. Cost of parts and labor that went into just the heads, the heads are worth around $5000. Port work is extensive.

Can you build an engine inexpensively, yes. Will it last for a long time, maybe. Inexpensive rebuilds are usually slotted for the stock replacement, high mileage engines to drop into a car as a daily driver car you plan on using for a long time. A few minor bolt on goodies won't hurt it but don't expect huge gains.

My original 383 pushed me into the high 11's after a converter and head swap. A 454 pushed me into the low 11's. My current 588 almost got an 8 second pass but from the street legal 383, the 588 is nowhere close to being street legal.

Reborn756

I fully understand that AlkylIROC. And that's exactly why I haven't mentioned this as a performance build. Even if I were to build a 383, I simply do not have the kind of money it takes to build a $10K strip machine. All my life I've seen my dad and my uncle build cars with whatever crappy parts they could get their hands on. Cheap parts that work, getting in all buddy buddy with the machine shops and pipe benders. I've seen some complete crap get hauled into their garages, and $2k or $4k later that rusted out hunk of nothing ends up one of the most beautiful cars I've ever seen. All from junkyard and discount parts. Every car they've done over and sold that has stayed in the local area still run like tops. That's what I'm looking for with this car. Something cheap, yet still fun and reliable. After a few cars come and go and I have the money saved up from my experiences, then I do something crazy. We all gotta start somewhere

cardo0

Sorry Reborn but who ever told u pistons from a 3.74" bore will fit a 4" bore didnt build a motor like that. Im not trying to discourage u but instead encourage u to match up the right parts before wasting your time and $$$. Those longer powder metal rods (5.94") wont match up to any on the shelf piston. Keith Black (now United Machine) sells some hyper pistons for a 4" bore 302 but using 5.7" rods. I just dont know where your friend found pistons to fit on a 5.94" rod? Most sbc pistons "compressed height" is for 5.7", 5.85", 6.0" rods.
What im saying is u cant use L99 pistons so u have to source different pistons and rods. Now using LT1 hypers and LT1 PM rods might work but u would need to weight and compare them to the L99 piston/rod combo first or possible end up doing heavy metal balancing to that crank - very expensive. Im trying to recall but i think u need to match the rotating weight of the piston/rod combo. "Bob weight" i think its called but not sure. Youll be buying new pistons anyways but the LT1 used hypers and were much lighter than the GEN I pistons before them - so are the LT1 GEN II PM rods. Now LT1 PM rods should be cheap as most owners throw them away at rebuild but they are strong and the factory matches their weight very well so not much to balance on those. U can prep a PM rod just like any other rod and better bolts is a great place to start.

Im not trying to bust your bubble here but help u see the issues before they can set u back. Once u have the rotating assembly balanced your just building another sbc.

Hope this helps more than it hurts.

Oh 1 more item is i dont know why u would run such a small 260* cam when the "Hot Cam" would fit this motor very well and is much larger for more power. Or even the chevy 12370846 HR if u dare.

Reborn756

Thanks for the reply Cardo0!

According to the guy that built this combo before, you use the 5.94" rods with standard 350 piston, to whatever overbore you may need. I definitely know the L99 pistons won't work in this thing, and I pray to god no one is dumb enough to think they will. Apparently, how it works out, is that the L99 crank with the L99 rods, coupled with a 350 piston, equalizes everything out. I'll have to find the exact post again so I can copy over what the guy said exactly. I'll look real quick

Also, thanks for the cam idea! I'll run it through Desktop Dyno quick and see what she spits out. I don't think it's the most accurate thing on the planet, but I do feel like it gives a good idea on how a particular setup will run. I actually ended up with the 270HR or 280HR, which boosted overall power and torque and moved the power band to about right where it needed to be

Reborn756

Alright, I found the post. This comes from 1983G20Van over on ChevyTalk.org:

"I've done just that

The pistons you will need are simply 350 pistons of the desired over-bore.

The 350 has a 3.48" stroke crank and 5.7" rods
The 265 has a 3.00" stroke crank and 5.94" rods.

The difference in the radius of the throw of the crankshaft is .24" shorter for the L99 265. The 265 rods are .24" longer. That means the L99 265 and the 4.3/305/350 pistons have the same compression height and piston pin location."

~1983G20Van, ChevyTalk.org

Reborn756

AlkylIROC, I just read your post about putting the GN turbo V6 in my car. Believe me, if I could find one cheap enough, I'd do that in a heartbeat. I love the GNs and the GNXs. Real show stoppers at the strip back in the day. That's why After this car's gone, I'm looking at possibly getting an 89 TTA. All the sweet third gen Pontiac styling with the nasty little turbo buick under the hood. There would be about 200 extra pounds for the little sucker to move, but man will it still move.

novaderrik

you know, as much as i've always wanted to build one of these engines- as i stated in my last post- i think i'd just get a junkyard 4.8 out of a newer truck, swap a cam in it, and go spank some Mustangs with it.. they are only 292 cubic inches, but are easily 300hp engines with a factory cam swap.. the best part is how cheap they are at any junkyard in the country, since they are slightly less desirable than the also cheap and common 5.3's that are cluttering up the yards..

novaderrik

\

you could put a 350 crank in the L99 block, with the L99 pistons on 350 rods and have a 305...

rb85TA

For the $$$$ and time, I'd say novaderrik hits it on the head! 4.8/5.3L ( same block. ..by the way ), with trans, wiring harness & ecm., some quick mods, a little tuning & stomping mustang Azz all the way to the bank ☺

cardo0

Ok your saving a lot of money using those 5.94" rods. I guess chevy made the GEN II 265" with parts swaps in mine it kinda looks like - typical sbc. But u still need lightweight pistons to match the L99 weight pistons. The smaller bore pistons should be much lighter and difficult to match with 350 4"bore pistons. Im not saying impossible but something u need to sort out before spending much time and effort. Also u want pistons with enough compression for a decent sized cam or u will wish u had keep the 305. I think u may be able to lighten a piston some also but thats something that can easily be done wrong and ruin the whole project - u should do your homework before cutting on a piston.

BTW i like that Chevy Talk forum. It has a pretty active Hi-Po section. Thx.

Reborn756

Thanks for all the replies folks! An L99 305 eh? Sounds like another contender right there. I never thought about the 4.8ls. 300hp with a cam upgrade? Sounds like a budget builder's dream right there!

Cardo0, providing I use a 260HR, 270HR, or 280HR cam, would 10:1 be a decent enough compression? And am I still going to be able to run 87 octane pump fuel with that Compression and engine combination?

rb85TA

With the LS aluminum head's & 10-10.5:1 compression will run on 87-92 octane with a proper tune for the cam, compression, etc.
300hp is a joke to any mildly built Ls... it'll be streetable, good fuel mileage & 300 + without even trying

cardo0

Reborn the way to choose a cam is to build the motor first. Cams are realitively cheap and custom cams are a pocket change added cost. I would choose a cam to match the motors static compression ratio to give u a reasonable dynamic compression ratio. IMHO there are so many variables involved in using regular or premium octane fuel i wouldnt even try to guess. But for the cams u listed i would keep static compression <10.5:1 with aluminum heads and <9.5:1 with iron heads. But with better exh and intake the engine will breath better too and that will help combustion chamber and flame front. Head chamber quench, chamber shape and surface, piston shape, intake air temp, head swirl, head temp, air/fuel ratio, ignition timing and even the spark size and duration will affect pre-ignition and detonation potential.

Now driving at cruise i can burn 87 octane in my '94 LT1 which is supposedly 10.4:1 but if i try to accelerate fast it bucks and bogs as the knock sensor pulls back timing adv. Havent tried 87 octane since i installed my 160*F t-stat but my eng temp gauge looks cooler and this winter i may give it another try.

Well for that 280HR and alum heads and 87 oct maybe possible with 10:1 but its leaving hp on the table if u can get 10.5:1 compression and i would use more compression. The other 2 cams using alum heads u should be good with 10:1 compression but for 91 oct. For 87 oct u can only try it and see. Hope that answers your q's.

Reborn756

Thanks a lot cardo0! I'll keep all of that in mind as I start to plan out just exactly which parts I plan on using. It looks like I'll be using Aluminum heads then rb85TA. Just playing around in Desktop Dyno I've seen that compression actually makes a very substantial difference, even going from 9.5:1 to 10:1.

rb85TA

The piston weight is not as drastic as your thinking & any competent machinist can compensate for it I n the balancing.

Reborn756

interesting. Thanks for the info rb85TA!

rb85TA

Yes, compression is a definite substantial performance change. I would be looking at 10.2-10.5:1 range with the right cam & tune (along with a little port work & gasket matching both head & intake. .as well as exhaust port to header matching ), and it'll probably be more than you asked for.

rb85TA

Np, the cost of the tools I have ( so I can pre-balance my rods & pistons & compensate for ring & wrist pin weight difference ), it would just be faster & cheaper to let a good machinist do it.

rb85TA

If you want to, you can always buy To wrist pins & more than compensate for the weight difference between the pistons.

Reborn756

Well, I now how access to Engine Analyzer 3.9. This looks a lot more accurate and promising, but instead of having "profiles" to pick from like in Desktop Dyno, I have to manually input all numbers, ranging from head flows to cam degrees. Is there anyone here that uses this particular system that can help me get the numbers right? I've compared the LT1 on this dyno and on desktop dyno, and this one here seems to take a lot more into account. You can actually see the simulation turning the pistons, checking compression and rotational speed at each RPM range. Frikkin cool!

rb85TA

That's sounds really cool. ... one of these days, I'll have to break down & buy a computer LOL! So I can play with those new gadgets ☺

Reborn756

You've helped me figure some of this 302 build out rb85TA, so if you ever need help with a computer let me know. That's my area of expertise

If you can build motors, you can build your own computer, cutting down your costs.

rb85TA

Np, glad to help anyone who is ready to learn. .. I don't know everything, but if I don't know the answers someone else is more than willing to help.
This forum & YB are the only one's i frequently visit, the guys on this forum have a great wealth of knowledge when it comes to 3rdGens, the other has a great wealth of knowledge as well. .. but geared towards engine, trans&chassis ( ALL OUT RACING ).

Reborn756

I'm definitely willing to learn. My dad and uncle have been doing this since they were my age, now it's time for me to learn a very valuable and fun skill other than computers. I appreciate all the help, advice and criticism everyone has given me here. I've read this forum for a while, and it's nice to finally be a part of it.

rb85TA

I'd say. ...WELCOME TO THE PARTY! and hopefully you can learn from not only our mistakes, but recognize & learn from yours as well.
Just try & remember this, hotrodding is supposed to be fun, and your car, is an extension of your personality. .. NOT, what is popular & or just like everyone else.
When it all started, kids were modifying what ever they drove, they didn't go out & buy what everyone else was Driving. Mostly because they were driving a hand me down or what they could afford. Then ,they made ( literally, made the mods themselves ), of course even back then, kids would hear about or see something that they liked & built that into their ride. But they didn't have an aftermarket source, so they had to customize their ride the old fashioned way. ... they cut,beat,banged, welded, ground, sanded & painted it the best they could & were DAMN proud of it when they were done.
So, build your car! Not what anyone or everyone else thinks you should! And last, take advantage of the knowledge of others, but put it to use , in a way that helps you get what you want.

Reborn756

Thanks for the solid advice rb85TA. I'm here to learn everything I can, and apply that knowledge. When I learn something new, win or lose, I'll walk away with that much more information to use to my advantage. Luckily I've got some pretty experienced folks such as yourself to learn from before I jump in.

rb85TA

☺, you will do fine. .. I'm sure!
So, what have you decided to build? A junkyard beater? Or a budget built daily driver? (Cheap as possible, but reliable & safe)

Reborn756

Definitely a budget Daily driver. I'll be in this car every day until it gets sold, so It'll need to start up and go every morning. And of course fly on occasion

As far as displacement, I'm still undecided on that. A 302 is very tempting, but if it's going to be significantly more than a 350, that's the way I'll go. If it's only ~$500 more, 302 it is. I'll keep everyone updated with what I decide to do, prices, build pictures, and if I go with a 302, a dyno of both the 302 and 350. I'll be checking back here often for whatever information you guys are willing to feed me, so keep it coming!

rb85TA

Right on, can't wait to hear about it.

Dominic Sorresso

The Coyote is a DOHC 4 valve.
HUGE difference. Nothing breathes like a 4 valve. And the power drop off is gradual unlike the characteristic cliff dive a 2V motor does.

rb85TA

Yeah, he didn't specify what model 5.0 Stang, but that's a good observation! If he wants to run better than the coyote 5L, he really needs to look into the Ls setup.

Reborn756

Definitely not Coyotes. I've heard about what the can do, and no one in my little town can afford that kind of factory made power. The ones that can go for something a lot cooler than a 5.0 mustang.

What I'll be running against around here is simple 90s and older 302s. No problem there. I actually kept up with a 4th gen 5.0 stang with my crappy little 305, and that was overcarbed at the time. Wasn't even full throttle. He on the other hand, that damn thing was roaring. So I'm fairly confident I could build the 305 up enough to handle the task, let alone a larger bore engine.

rb85TA

LOL, no doubt.

rb85TA

Anything to update? Hope all is well.

Reborn756

Nothing to update yet. I've found a few part distributors that I'm trying to contact about L99 rods and cranks. I'm still in the process of pricing everything out. I've been weighing out all of my options in regards to cams, heads, etc. I want to make sure I'm getting the best parts while keeping costs realistic. I should be able to get a price list up here by the end of the week, so long as these guys get back to me on the L99 parts.

rb85TA

Right on, sounds like you're still leaning towards the 302... & like I said, if that is what you really want. ... then that's what you should build!

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

LT1 pistons are both flat top and lighter than older designs. Just something to think about.

Reborn756

Thanks for the reply Fast355! I apologize for taking so long to get back to everyone, I work nights and we've been pretty busy these past few days. I'm in the process of writing up a price sheet now, but I've stumbled into a problem. That of course, is my compression ratio. With the heads and pistons I'm looking at, I'm running a very disappointing 8.7:1 compression ratio. If I zero decked the motor and used the smallest steel shim gasket I could get (.015 compressed thickness) I come up to 9.9:1 compression, but I really don't want to use that thin of a gasket or zero deck the motor. Here are the numbers I'm putting into the calculator:
Bore size: 4.00
Stroke length: 3.00
Gasket Bore: 4.166
Gasket thickness (compressed):0.041
Combustion chamber volume: 72CCs
piston dome volume:+6CCs
deck clearance: .025 (standard 350 clearance?)

The heads I've got picked out are Summit heads, part #SUM-152123. I decided on these heads for four reasons: cost, they come fully assembled and machined, they are cast iron, and they are modeled after good ole' double hump heads. The gasket I'm looking at is part #FEL-1003, and the pistons are part #SUM-17350-00. If anyone could give me some recommendations on heads or pistons I could use to bring my ratio up to 9.5:1 or even 10:1, please send the part numbers my way!

Extra info: When upping stroke to 3.48, this parts combo runs at 9.9:1 compression. So if you're trying to build a 350 "cheap", this setup should work good.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Sounds like you are already going to be limiting your power with this build.

rb85TA

64 cc head's & head gasket with 4.060" bore & .038" compressed height ,will bring it up & run better to.

rb85TA

A dome is great for jumping compression way up & racing, But i would not recommended a 6.6cc dome for your high rpm pump gas daily driver.
A set of flat tops will work just fine for your build. The DZ302 @ 11:1 With flat tops, you just need to figure out what you want.
And advice is good, but trying to put 100 different styles and points of view into an engine. ...isn't going to work. Read, research, talk to, BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY. ...LISTEN & then you can learn.
You seem like a nice guy, but you keep bouncing around idea's. Myself & a bunch of the guys on this forum truly want to help& want to Help guys to build strong running thirdgen's.
I get that you want to build a 302 ( like I said previously ), & I also understand your on a budget ( like most of us ), but you ask for advice & then don't use it?

rb85TA

Are you planning on running a forced Induction system? If so then leaving the piston in the hole .020 I get, but if you're leaving the piston in the hole just to run a dome .. your creating more problems than your solving.
Flat tops, 0 deck, .040 (or less) compressed height gasket with a bore that is .020-.050 bigger than the actual bore & 58-65 cc head's.
You have a 1000 different choices you can make & still come up with 11:1 or less for 93 octane pump gas.
At 10.6:1 - 11.5:1 you're going to be forced to run premium 91-93 octane ( depending on what is available where you live ), but still very streetable.

Dominic Sorresso

Agreed. I ran the TFS 23d heads w 2.02 valves, 64cc chamber and 195cfm runners. CR was at 10.5:1

Reborn756

Thanks for all the replies! For this one, I'd like to stay around 10:1 or so I can run crap gas. Fuel prices are way down in PA right now, but if gas ever hits 4 bucks a gallon I'd rather be able to use the cheap stuff.

I thought the pistons I was looking at were flat top. Summit said they were Hypereutectic flat tops, so I figured they were ok to use. Also, they were only 90 bucks for the whole set. I'm taking it that these aren't really flat tops then? If not, are there any other cheap brands I should be looking at?

I should definitely 0 deck this motor? Are there any cons to 0 decking? The reason I didn't want to do this was because of more cost and I figured I'd only be able to use this rod and piston combo afterwards.

Forced induction was something I had previously looked at, but decided not to do because of cost. Plus, the people I'd beat would say it's only because of the turbo/supercharger.

I'm definitely taking and listening to everyone's advise. I think the problem is I'm listening to too many people at once. I need to try all of one person's ideas, see how I like that particular setup, then try someone else's. Then I should try mixing a couple. Right now I'm taking a few ideas that all sound solid and seeing what happens. Apparently not the best idea at this stage of the whole process.

Thanks again everyone!

rb85TA

That's it exactly.
I got the impression it's a dome by the 6.6 cc, I think now that it's a +, not -, so it's a 4 valve relief claimed piston & hyperuetec, not forged.
Definitely 0 deck the block, it shouldn't cost much more than having it trued ( .005 for the clean up pass & .010 x 2 & it's done ). Which I hope you had planned on doing to begin with.
10 - 10.5:1 will run on 87 octane & up, (89-93 octane will be happier ).