UltRoadWarrior9

Balanced rotating assembly: 1 of 2 choices.
Common features are 4.030" bore, 4340 forged H-beam rods & crank, forged 5.00cc flat top pistons w/2 valve reliefs, 1 piece RMS and $1839.97. Difference not stated in pic: Part #B12108030 has 5.7" rods (750HP max) and Part #B12111030 has 6.0" rods (1500HP max with rod bolt upgrade).

EDIT: A great link for 6" rods:https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...-w-6-rods.html

UltRoadWarrior9

An old short read from a person who wanted 500HP 383 w/TPI, same vein as me back in 2003: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/engi...500hp-tpi.html

Night rider327

iTrader: (13)

I would pass on eagle brand. For the lower end budget stuff scat is much better.
I was a performance/race engine builder for years before the economy slammed that door shut in my face..

During that time, I sent back cases of Eagle rods and dozes of cranks for very poor finish machining. I know parts will not be spot on and it's the builder's job to set clearances but this stuff needed full on machine work just to get close to right.

Also Eagle rods tends to be a little 'fatter' in the shoulders and needs more clearancing when running longer strokes and bigger cams

I like the Scat rods the very best (out of the budget stuff) and Scat cranks ranks very high up with me.

Other real good budget cranks are Callies, and Howards

Also IMHO with stroker engines stay away from H beam rods. Go with I beams the strength difference is NOT worth the size and weight. If you were building a 1200 HP twin turbo'ed V8 it would be a diff story maybe.

The H beams do not "fit" as well, you end up having to take more metal out of the oil pan rails, and bottom of cylinder walls... Also higher risk of cam to rod clearance issues.

UltRoadWarrior9

Thanks Nightrider, maybe you can help me.
I picked that bottom end package from Eagle most especially because it was internally balanced and because it had forged crank, 6" forged rods and forged pistons for $1800. That's just $500 more that the cast version of their balanced rotating assembly.
Maybe the budget stuff you were referring to were the individual cast parts?
I hope so, because if not what you say is truly disturbing about not having received a finished product.
Also how long ago was this?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I ran eagle h beams in my 383 just fine. Cleared fine and worked well enough for me

I got callies compstar h beams in my turbo motor now

Valve Motion

Are you looking for magazine numbers or real numbers? Because those numbers are possible if the engine had 12:1 compression and was corrected for mechanical losses. You'll have to turn your 383 6500 rpm using 11:1 compression, with a valve lift above .620 on each side. But that will get it done.

ASE doc

Add The Edelbrock Pro Flow XT to the list of intake choices

ASE doc

A general rule is shorter rods are better for low end torque, long rods provide better stability and reduce piston speed at higher rpms. 2:1 rod to stroke ratio was always considered ideal in race applications but the SBC will only come close to that with a shorter stroke and/or tall deck aftermarket block. Most engine builders today have tossed the 2:1 ideal to the side in favor of more cubic inches. Looking at one recent NA 421 SBC build passing 670hp on pump gas, I can't say I disagree with their methods.

One thing to think about when considering rod length is piston compression height. The SBC platform and 9.025 deck provides limited space for rod length and piston height. Going with longer rods, which I prefer to do, means less compression height. On your 383 with 3.75 stroke(1.875 crank throw) leaves room for 1.125compression height.

The one downside is that the only piston choices for this combo will have 1/16" top and second rings, due to short compression height. The thin rings run less tension and will lead to some loss of sealing and more tendency for oil consumption as the engine gets some hours on it. I overcame the problem with a Moroso vacuum pump. It cleaned up combustion and gave me a little boost in power above 5,600rpm. I never saw an issue with the thin rings in the race motors I put together since they never accumulated so many hours before tear down at the end of the season. On the street, there is more of an issue. One thing I will do on my next build is file fit rings. That may help. I also hope that a better set of pistons than the budget units that went into my 355 will improve ring function.

I will be running 6.0" rods in my 406 build. It's worth it to me even if I'm forced to run the narrow rings.

UltRoadWarrior9

Excellent information, thank you!
I might need to reconsider my choice of 6" rod length. I just read it was easier on the cylinder walls and did not consider other real world factors like ring size on those pistons meant for 6" rods.
Will you/ or have you started a thread on your 406 engine build?

UltRoadWarrior9

I forgot to post the compression ratio on that build, but it was stated as 10:1...
SIDE NOTE: Got your 2016CI software from your site:www.controlledinduction.com. Experimenting...

ASE doc

10:1 is not bad. But with aluminum heads, good chambers, which any decent aftermarket performance head today will have, and a properly matched piston crown, you can easily run 10:5 and that extra .5 is worth taking the time to get. I like 10.4:1 for my 406.

On that note, I'll talk about my 406 plans. I don't have a thread started for it. Aside from selecting parts that work, my only involvement in the build itself will likely be bolting on the top end and installing it. In my 4 decade career as a mechanic, I've built many engines for various levels from stock to budget race. The more I do, the more I recognize the value of perfection, or at least its pursuit. The little beasty 355 that I run now has lasted a long time with lots of abuse, because it was machined with perfection in mind. Tolerances of .0001 on bearing journals. That is something you and I can't do, unless you have alot of expensive machinery and years of machining experience.

Buying a rotating assembly from a catalog, along with a block, whether their from the same company or not, and bolting them together is a crap shoot as far as what kind of clearances you will end up wit. Forget tolerances, roundness and taper will be all over the place.

The last several engines I've built were all machined by the same guy. He has built more high revving small block chevy race motors than I've ever seen. The top racers in my area have used him for years. When I do build the 406, I will source the parts from him, have hime do all the machine work, and probably have him assemble the short block. While I know I can do the job well, I know he can do it better. Plus, I plan to use file fit rings and I trust him to get the end gaps right. While Archie will just about price match the performance warehouses, I expect to pay $1,000 for machine work and assembly. Sure it's tempting to buy parts and throw them together, think of how much you'll save. But when I stomp the throttle and hit 7,000rpm, I like knowing that my engine is put together right.

As far as brand of block goes, Archie Somers uses DART blocks. I like the Dart line also. They're the only ones doing a high performance block(SHP) that's in the hobbyist's price range, unless you're super rich. My 406 will be built on a Dart SHP. In the SHP, Dart has addressed the serious shortcomings of the factory block and developed an SBC block that really supports 700hp and accepts all factory parts. For around $1700, it's a bargain.

UltRoadWarrior9

You're talking strip with 700HP.... I'd just like to get close to 500HP with the FFI Intake for street and keeping 1227165 ECM. I want to focus on cornering and braking as well. 2015 Vette base brakes already in place. Definately welding in the UMI subframe connector before the engine goes in to the 700R4.
Very rarely do I plan on hitting close to 7K RPM. For another $500, I'm going Eagle Forged pistons/rods/crank. Also, I'd like 11:1 with AFR 195 heads as Orr has suggested. Prob have short tube headers, so will stick with 5.75 rods. Good read here, was a link off a previous link I'd posted:http://www.stahlheaders.com/Lit_Rod%20Length.htm

UltRoadWarrior9

Part 3 of a great video series on building a 383, he talks about when to use 6" rods. The entire series provides excellent information!

ASE doc

That's a decent explanation of rod length vs. stroke. There's alot more to it than what was covered here. Such as piston velocity as it's affected by rod length. You are safe with 5.7 rods. This will also allow you to go 5/64 rings on the top two rings.

If you do some research, you'll see that while 600hp from 406 cid is on the radical side of things, it's not necessarily strip only. There are 670hp 421cid builds that make very driveable torque and are run in street rods that will rarely see the track. As your sig states, knowledge is horsepower. The knowledge it takes to make big power is available for everyone. There is alot to be learned on the internet, however with plenty of misinformation mixed in.

Before making any big engine building decisions, I would definitely recommend you consult a professional engine builder. Someone who builds high horsepower small blocks on a daily basis. Ask questions, and again, for all the money you spend on high test parts, save enough for machine shop time. Since you're talking about buying ready to assemble parts, you really only need to start out with a clearance check. Just to see how well the parts you buy really fit together. Also, unless you buy a rotating assembly from a single source, where balancing would be an option, you will need to have the assembly you piece together balanced by an engine machinist.

UltRoadWarrior9

Alright, as the block stands it needs a .030" cylinder bore with head torque plate, also a possible zero deck procedure.
I am almost ready to buy the balanced forged bottom end made by Scat. Part #1-41825BIE from summit:http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sc...make/chevrolet

UltRoadWarrior9

Found a machine shop. Talked to the guy over the phone, said he needed the pistons in order to bore each of the cylinders .030" over. I think this is a great sign. I told him of my plans generally speaking. He was not thinking I could get to 450HP on 93 octane on a NA engine, he was thinking more like 350HP. Lingenfelter showed us better...
So I'm going to commit to the Scat rotating assembly in the post above, give him the engine block and pistons and pay him to do a couple of things:
1) Check/adjust the balance of the rotating assembly.
2) Bore cylinders over .030" with provided pistons as reference.
3) Shave the block for zero deck.

UltRoadWarrior9

Finally found the thread. Haven't found any other well documented 383 builds from scratch on this forum or on that one. If anyone finds one please post here!
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/383-build-230191.html

He uses 6" rods, AFR195 heads and a XR282HR cam and thinks he went too small with the cam after his engine only dyno.

BTW after 4 days, my Scat forged bottom end has finally been shipped from Cali.

UltRoadWarrior9

Thought I'd post some IROC pics from unusual angles... This is a side project to build a secured enclosed carport for the IROC behind my house. Too r3dn3ck?

I might start the engine build on hotrodders.com. This forum doesn't really seem too be for engine building. Any thoughts?

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Speedtalk forum is great too.

UltRoadWarrior9

Looking at AFR 210 Competition port heads and a comp cams hydraulic roller cam #08-468-8. 242/248 duration @ .050".
The real question is if the piston relief can accommodate the lift of this cam .584int / .579exh with the recommended 1.6 rocker arms.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

My car is a 388cu and made 440whp with scat crank and rods, 11:1 compression and Miniram. This was tuned on the Dyno.

UltRoadWarrior9

11:1 compression is pretty high. No problems? What RPMs have you pushed?

I see you went with the 280XFI cam. I've been looking at the 292XFI cam. I emailed Comp Cams my spec's and asked them for a recommendation last week. Today I got a response back and they recommended the 292XFI.

So I'm going with that hydraulic roller. A little more aggressive, higher RPM power, maybe not so good on vacuum power boosted brakes? I'll find out.

The last variable I've been trying to figure out is the air induction system. I swear I really wanna go with the First system but the only issue I'm concerned with is the sticking throttle body butterfly problem I've read so much about...

I'd like to try a plastic AFR Titan manifold, mated to a low rise elbow of some sort, mated to a 58mm throttle body. But I've not seen any elbows that can mount the 58mm TB, just the LS style of TB. Anyone seen any different????

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

There was a ACCEL cast elbow for the TPI T-body to carb intake back in the day.
Maybe Street an performance may still have one of their own?

UltRoadWarrior9

Update: I've got the '880' block and now, the Scat internal/external balanced forged rotating assembly. Internally balanced on the front end , so I can use a harmonic balancer without weights. The back end is balanced with a weighted flex plate, that was shipped with the crank/rods/pistons and is meant for an auto trans.
I recorded all the serial numbers from each of the h-beam rods and the crank. The mahle pistons don't have serial #'s, so I need to etch my initials into each of the pistons. That way I'll be confident when I get my engine back from the machine shop.

Also got ARP studs for main caps and the AFR cylinder heads. Main cap studs are installed temporarily at this point. ARP cylinder head studs are not installed yet. Will talk to the machine shop, and most likely they will install the head studs with 271 'red' loctite thread sealer I bought. I'll provide a duplicate head gasket so they can do an accurate boring the block cylinder walls +.030" with their torque plate.

They'll also clean the engine and crank as the crank came with an anti-rust coating. Also, they'll determine if the crank will need to be polished.
They will also zero-deck the block and install new clevite cam bearings after the final clean.

UltRoadWarrior9

Forgot to post this from 383ci SBC DYNO section of AFR website. 500HP on 2 carb'd engines. Also, they have lower spec's:
Compression(~9.5:1):http://www.airflowresearch.com/dyno.php.
Also, both those engines use a CompCams 12-433-8 hydraulic roller cam with duration of 236/242 @.050" and .520"int/.540"exh. Compare that vs CompCams 292XFI. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-08-468-8

UltRoadWarrior9

Had a difficult time trying to get the CompCams 292XFI from their site and summit. Had to pay just abit more from Jeg's, but that chunk of metal is now on the way!
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...hTerm=08-468-8

Assembly pics to come soon.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

Rev it to 6600 but the HP peaked out at 6450. Make sure your valve train can handle high RPM's. Vacuum will be good. 280xfi is better for the streets.

palric

iTrader: (1)

well said night rider

UltRoadWarrior9

Carb guys, pffft!

Got the XFI292 Camshaft in today, a few days early.
A pic of the first few lobes of the cam profile:

UltRoadWarrior9

I decided to do my SBC383 engine build here on TGO, so here's some pics. I've had some time to spare today.

First, a couple pics of a Comp Cams 3-piece timing cover.

UltRoadWarrior9

ARP Main Studs and 1 piece RMS adapter.

UltRoadWarrior9

More pics of the 3 piece Comp Cams front timing cover set:

UltRoadWarrior9

Cam installation (prep w/clean & lube):

UltRoadWarrior9

Clearance issues? Looks like .020" brass cam bushing might be needed on the front of the cam. Original pics here look real close though. Tried to get pics of where the roller lifters would be rolling on the top of the cam...:

UltRoadWarrior9

Pre Crankshaft install and clearance check in the 880 Chevy Performance Block:

UltRoadWarrior9

While cleaning the crank of the rust inhibitor, I noticed this scuffing on the 'new' crank. The 1st 3 pics shows what I'm referring to. I immediately called the manufacturer last night and emailed the pics. The last pic shows what looks like damage to the internal threads. A resolution is forthcoming:

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Looks fairly normal to me.

LiquidBlue

UltimateRoadWarrior - where are you at with this build? Can a stock TPI be used to get you somewhat close to what you want? What DO you want from this build? I mean, how do you plan to use the car with all this horsepower? I mean, its nice to say its there, but what are your real-world expectations on how you will utilize the new found power? Just curious. If I drop a bigger motor in my car, I would be looking for civilized power. Something that I can romp on from 0-80mph or something like that, but would be one smooth machine. I don't have a lot of experience from other engines, but I love the way a BMW V8 motor purrs. Their V8 seem to have a smooth torque band all the way up to 6000 rpm. The motor never feels like its going to blow up. I would want similar, but with a bad boy, pony car edge to it.

UltRoadWarrior9

You don't see those scuff marks on the snout of the crank, where the harmonic balancer is supposed to go?! This is supposed to be a brand new balanced and forged bottom end.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Yeah? you talking the very end where it was cut off? thats normal.
The light scuffs on the sides of the snout also? Thats fairly normal too. Could be from many things.
Wait till the balancer slides on and off then check the marks.

UltRoadWarrior9

Hi, This is what I'm aiming for:
I want close to 500HP/TQ from a 383 SBC stroker. 450HP would be acceptable.
I want to use the original ECM and learn how to reprogram it.
I want to drive it knowing I built it with extreme attention to detail.
I want a bulletproof bottom end so it can take abuse once in awhile and still perform.
I want to destroy any mustang I come across.
I would like a quiet machine, but we'll see.

So my next plans after I get the bottom end machined and put together, is to purchase the AFR heads and valve train components and assemble those.
I was originally planning on a new intake and exhaust, but that looks like it's going to be another $3K at least.
I think it would be smarter to put the new engine build in with the ORIGINAL exhaust and intake and then start to tune just to get it running.

UltRoadWarrior9

Why would that be considered normal IYO?

LiquidBlue

Of course!

Seems like a good idea, you can do all that work with the engine in the car. Plus, you'll have a greater appreciating of the 3K spent, once installed.

LiquidBlue

BTW - those TPI replacements you are looking at are very cool. I totally understand the want for keeping it looking stock.

I know you are wanting to spend a little at a time, but are you finding that you could buy a crate engine for less than what you can build one for? Seems like the would be the case, since you are buying in "bulk".

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

It may seem so, but even if you bought the best OEM compatible aftermarket TPI parts (not including superram) You would be very hard pressed to reach 500hp at the crank. The OEM compatible intake parts just aren't large enough.

The FIRST TPI on the other hand will support the flow needed to do it.

Several members on these boards have extensively modified their stock style TPI parts and achieved exceptional power output from what appears to be a stock TPI system. But, they have a ton of time, money, and custom fabrication into these intakes, they are not off the shelf items.

And to be honest? If you have a 383, chances are you already have too much torque, specially if it has matched heads/cam/intake on it.

UltRoadWarrior9

Apparently, the FIRST TPI manifold has problems with their non-standard throttle body which is too bad. I've read early on, of several members having problems with their butterfly sticking.

palric

iTrader: (1)

I share the sentiment with Mustangs. But late model Mustangs are a handful for late model Camaros and a very big challenge for a 3rd gens.

Where do you want to beat them? 1/4 mile? x-cross?

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Not a big challenge. Certainly requires a full build though.

If you can't trap 120+ you won't be gauranteed to beat new mustangs or camaro's as both of them are trapping in the 115-120mph range depending on models.

GT350R trapped 119. New Camaro SS trapped 116mph I think.

And handling wise, they are phenomenal road course cars as well.

daferris

iTrader: (8)

It's probably from when the crank was bring balanced...

UltRoadWarrior9

Yeah, that's what I was thinking as well. But I refuse to except this as normal for their top of the line SBC balanced rotating assembly... We'll see. I've got alot more to say, but I'll withhold negative comments at this time until this is resolved. Shipped the forged crank back to CA from NC today for reinspection.