UltRoadWarrior9

I have enough $ to start my 383 engine from scratch and need to plan for things in the future...
First I plan on purchasing a new block from either www.chevroletperformanceparts.com or www.summitracing.com. The 383 bare iron block with 1 piece RMS is $974 from CPP or $1006 for SR. Price difference is negligible, but SR has more details on the engine mechanical specifics.

Anyway, I would like to keep the original TPI intake & ECM from my 1986 IROC 305 and use it on this new build. I already have the APU1 Moates Prom Emulator and realize I need a few other items:

1) Holley adjustable fuel pressure regulator part # 512-501
2) Higher flow Injectors
3) High Performance Aluminum Heads. 2.02" intake, 1.6" exhaust
4) 1.6 ratio billet aluminum roller rockers
5) High performance SS exhaust, TBD
6) Performance throttle body

I've already put a B&M stage 2 shift kit in the TH700R4. The trans has been rebuilt by the original owner before I bought it and the TCC solenoid connector is currently unconnected. The rear end is a 2002 Camaro SS Auburn unit on it's way out... I'm going to bang on the trans and rearend to see which one breaks first. I'm expecting the rear to break first,with plans to replace it with a 3.73 gears and Eaton TrueTrac carrier....

Thanks for your opinions!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Stock tpi? Not happening

UltRoadWarrior9

Yes, stock TPI with possibly replacing the MAF & cold start injector etc. with a MAP and newer OBD1 ECM + different .bin

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Ecm with either map or maf is not a problem. Either will work

Stock tpi will not support 500 hp on motor alone

UltRoadWarrior9

Thanks Orr for your time, I value your input!
What parts would you suggest to replace this OBD1 intake/hardware in order to get the engine to output ~500HP?
Also, where is the bottleneck in this 1986 design IYO, in order for it to output this power?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Bottle neck is the stock tpi port size and runner size. What you need is something like the FIRST tpi unit with large ports and runners

Rather see something like a stealth ram, single plane efi, or miniram or similar design. You need to rev near 6000 to make the power with a decent head. Those intakes will support it

Stock maf should be descreened and the tpi intake ducting cut out in the filter box area. Ideal setup is extend filter box to grill area to make ram air effect

Maf will max by 4000 ish rpm on a hot 383, likely sooner. But you have pe mode vs rpm enrichment to tune by, which will take over fuel just fine to 6400+

UltRoadWarrior9

Alright, I've got some research to do! Thanks alot for the tips!

UltRoadWarrior9

Links to Chevy 383CI bare block #88962516 that I'm considering:
1) http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-88962516
2) https://chevroletperformanceparts.co...rear-main-seal

UltRoadWarrior9

$3300 seems pretty steep for a 3rd Gen TPI copy...
First TPI system: http://precisionraceengines.com/feat...efi-tpi-system

aliceempire

iTrader: (14)

That's including the injection system though. If you are using stock wiring and 165 ecm, you'll just need the manifold. You can find a FIRST manifold for roughly $600. HSR will be cheaper than that and probably give you more gain.

UltRoadWarrior9

I am using stock wiring and 1227165 ECM. Now $600 would be worth a higher flow manifold with the same looks! Will check out HSR, Thank You!

I should post valuable links as I progress and do research on TGO...
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/alte...rformance.html

aliceempire

iTrader: (14)

New I think the manifold is around $1000, used tend to be findable at $600. I had my hands on one at a swap meet a few years back for that much.
HSR manifold only is closer to the $400 mark http://www.summitracing.com/parts/wnd-7540

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

The entire manifold runners plenum and throttle body system i believe is 1000. Not bad as every other intake is gonna be near that when you include a throttlebody

UltRoadWarrior9

HSR vs. Edelbrock link. More research needed. This is not so easy...
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...-flow-tpi.html

LiquidBlue

These guys say no but show you how 500hp baby! http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/eng...tpi-induction/

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

458 is not 500 lol

LiquidBlue

What a few hp between 3rd Gen Friends! Besides with all that torque, you'll never notice.

aliceempire

iTrader: (14)

Sure a comic book that excels in number inflation. No accessories. Only long tube headers. On an engine dyno. My engine puts out 100 more hp doing that. Must be because I have the same camshaft? Not saying they didn't build a stout motor, just note that big numbers sensationalize comic book covers.

-=Z28=-

iTrader: (3)

I can ask some ppl about what block they would recommend as Im sure they have dealt with both and many more. Why not use a 4 bolt 350 block? The blocks you are looking at will still require machining too..

Also, Why tpi? Slap a carb on it. easily reach 500hp.

(think im a carb guy?) lol

UltRoadWarrior9

Yes, the 530+ft/lbs of torque is outstanding on that SuperChevy 383 build link! The HP very respectable as well, I think that's about what to expect on a lower type budget. Maybe another 50 HP going from 10.6:1 to 11:1? 93 octane only.

Now to avoid the ping, I need to consider a reverse flow water pump where the heads are cooled before the block?

UltRoadWarrior9

No carb's at all. They're lazy at delivering the fuel. I need injectors close to the cylinders and injectors need a computer. Also I prefer OEM, because they're just about MIL-spec as far as the ECM internals. This '86 1227165 ECM still works awesome which says something for those GM engineers back then.... Although now it's got a 27SF512 EEPROM instead of a 27C512 EPROM.
EDIT: BTW, your offer to ask about which block to use would be much appreciated! However, the block I chose is advertised to have oil pan rail clearance for rod's up to 3.800" and it actually does have 4-bolt mains, although not splayed.
EDIT: I just noticed the main journals are advertised to fit a 350 crank? W*F is this? I thought a 383 main journal was made for a 400ci crankshaft?

Night rider327

iTrader: (13)

No, a 383 has ALWAYS been a 350 block with 2.45" mains. and a 3.75" stroke

The old way of making a 383 was to take a 350 block, 400 crank, machine crank down to fit the 2.45" mains, use the short 400's 5.565" rods and std. 350's 1.56" compression height pistons

MoJoe

iTrader: (5)

You're barking up the wrong block here. There is no "reverse flow" water pump. You're thinking either:
a) reverse ROTATION because a serpentine accessory drive spins the water pump in the opposite direction as the crank / versus a traditional V belt accessory drive.
b) The LT1/LT4 engine that was in 93-97 Camaros (and 92-96 Corvettes). The block, heads, intake* and water pump are non-interchangeable between the original Gen I SBC and Gen II / LTx series.
(* intake can be swapped with some basic machine work).

Night rider327

iTrader: (13)

10.5, even 11.0:1 is can be done on the street with pump 93 octane and detonation free.

You need to know what you are doing though. Alum heads with fast burn type chambers, tight quench height, polished piston crowns and chambers, the correct matched cam, the right heat range plugs, the right a/r mixture, the correct amount of timing and timing curve, cooler intake air, etc.

I run 10.34:1 compression on pump 93 with out any probs at all

UltRoadWarrior9

That's right, it's been awhile for me. As a mechanic I always thought engine building was the pinnacle of our craft! Now I'm ready to craft and learn.

I was thinking of LT1/LT4, thanks for correcting me. How about an LS1 block for a stroker? CPP has a new LS1 bare block for <$1K. Would an LS1 stroker engine (still a 383ci) have advantages over a GenI block? Geez, now I gotta research LS1, heh. Probably can't use the TPI setup or ECM, which sorta screws with my goals, but if it's worth it I would...

Thanks for the valuable info!

MoJoe

iTrader: (5)

3rd time's a charm...

LSx is an ENTIRELY different beast.

The SBC/LTx at least share motor mounts, exhaust and transmission.

Go with an LS, and ANYthing and EVERYthing for the SBC gets replaced; accessories, motor mounts, exhaust, transmission, wiring, computer, not to mention the obvious block, crank, heads, intake.

You can get factory LS from 4.8L up to the 427/7.0L/LS2 with the 376/6.2L/LS3 being closest to the 383ci you want.

Night rider327

iTrader: (13)

Your welcome. Look up Pat Kelly DCR and read that a few times. Your dynamic compression and cylinder pressure is a major part of running high compression on lower octane fuels. The cam timing events is what plays the role in that. I like to stay in the 7.8 to 8.4 DCR range with 8.0 to 8.25 being the target for pump fuel street use engines

Quench is another major part... Your compression will increase with tighter quench, but the benefits of the quench is like free octane so to speak.
I like to keep quench in the .038" to .045" range with .040" being target

UltRoadWarrior9

It sounds like you're info contradicts as far as motor mounts exhaust and trans... You say they share these things, but then go on to say that they need to get replaced. Which is it? And thanks for your input!

MoJoe

iTrader: (5)

SBC/LTx share motor mounts, exhaust, trans (at least the 86+ 1 piece RMS SBC).
SBC/LSx do not share motor mounts, exhaust, trans.

UltRoadWarrior9

Thanks MoJoe for clarifying!

I am going to have to make a decision soon....

I would like old school HP, while retaining as much as I can of my '86 IROC ECM & intake, as in the SuperChevy article. So tempting to follow that build... But then there is the more advanced LS1 block being offered for the same $$$ as CPP GenI 383 block...

Tough to choose, more research needed. I know already if I chose the LS1, I've already wasted my money on the APU1... SH*t

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

Where in NC are you? ...and I'd buy that Autoprom from ya if ya go LS.

Be careful what you're getting into. While I support any decision, it sounds like you're WAY to close to spending money to not have decided to stay SBC or go LS!!! ....while there's no denying the potential of the LS, there's so much more involved with going that route. As has been mentioned, EVERYTHING changes. Again, it's a GREAT choice...just be aware of what's involved.

UltRoadWarrior9

I'm near Wake Forest... I'm sticking with SBC. LS1 would be too expensive with all the changes required.
Any word as to what they would recommend?

-=Z28=-

iTrader: (3)

I just asked. Its tough to word everything correctly.

I will let you know asap.

LiquidBlue

Here's another great article : http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/...-efi-mistakes/

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/pro...y-stroker-kit/

-=Z28=-

iTrader: (3)

They all say, Find a good oem block and go from there.

OR dart shp is the way to go. but your hp goals dont call for that.

The guys who have responded have not used the blocks you mentioned. it is the weekend.

UltRoadWarrior9

Thx for posting, that hotrod article is awesome (1998?!). I'll probably read it a couple of times. I see that I'm commiting sin #1 on the list by wanting to transplant my 305 OEM TPI onto a killer new engine... We shall see. I'm seriously thinking of copying the setup in the previous Superchevy article and using my original 1227165 ECM. That way only one variable, the ecm, stands in the way of success. I think this would be wisest!

Thanks very much for asking, it's much appreciated!

So I have a few SA Design books I've owned for a long time and am starting to read. The last one (#3) I can't find and am going to have to repurchase because I remember years ago, that there were all sorts of details in there most people don't think of, when building from scratch. See, I've been wanting to build a 383 for a LONG time. John Lingenfelter was my hero back in the early 1990's, (may he R.I.P.). He was building 450HP 383's for 4th Gen Firebirds with his own fuel injection IIRC. I had always wanted to put one in my original '86 sport coupe. I had always thought of Smokey as an ultra knowledgeable engine builder, but one based on old school carb. And John as the fuel injection guru, maybe with some trick parts internally to match compression/flow etc to his EFI setup. Anyway, my current booklist:
1) SA87 How to Build Big-Inch Chevy Small Blocks
2) SA21 The Step By Step Guide To Engine BluePrinting

3) Smokey Yunick's Power Secrets

#1 has 350SBC Gen I test engines in the appendices, some are approaching 600HP, but all with carb. Some of the blocks are World Motown, Dart Iron Eagle, and production iron 350.

I just ordered the Smokey Yunick book, ain't cheap @$65 but knowledge is HP.

SbFormula

Yes but you'll choke the living hell out of it and you'll never achieve 500HP.

Check this intake: https://www.firstfuelinjection.com/

If you ever go with FirstFuel, it's great and easy to install. They have 2 different CFM rate. The throttle body could be a pain as it sticks a bit when closed.

Check out this thread: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...injection.html

Best of luck!

UltRoadWarrior9

.

LiquidBlue

ya, carbs are not nearly as sexy looking as a TPI straddling to top of that block

UltRoadWarrior9

For me it's about performance, I don't give 2 sh*ts about looks (look at my car). Carb's take too long to deliver the fuel to where it's needed. I've previously owned a '86 Sport Coupe Camaro with the Rochester and modded the springs/jets etc. and got it working awesome with 4 bolt mains 350 truck block with a roller cam from a '91 TA. Power showed up after I put on the performance headers and exhaust. Even so, this 305 I have on my current '86 TPI feels way more responsivel, and I've not even done any mods to this engine. From my reading, the immediate torque is from the TPI/Runners and fuel injectors. Immediate throttle response is Way better!

Night rider327

iTrader: (13)

I think your are mis understanding the fuel delivery system, throttle response, power curve, etc.

A well built engine with a well built and tuned carb WILL have the same throttle response as any EFI system.

The examples that you have owned are not the best to go by. It's like comparing apples to footballs.

Throttle response comes from your engine's build.. It's valvetrain, intake system, etc.
Throttle crispness comes from the fueling system

What you feel with the stock TPI system was done on purpose. It's the intake design (runner length and size) to take an other wise sluggish engine and help to give it good low RPM torque.

You are comparing a 190 HP @ 4000 rpm, 285 ft lbs @ 2800 rpm LOW rpm engine to a built higher RPM engine..

If you look at those specs... The above is of the '86 305 TPI, the 305 HO with carb made same HP but at 800 RPM higher... Peak torque came in at 3200 rpm, which is 400 rpm more.

The TPI system was used to lower the peak RPM points and build more torque at low RPM.

With an engine like you are talking about putting together. 450-500 HP peak HP will be made in the 5800-6500 rpm range, and will make 475-550 ft lbs torque but it's peak will be around 4500 RPM or so

You need an intake system that will work, flow in that range, not something made for half that RPM.

I have a 500+ HP 355 with a carb in my camaro... There is NO slow fuel delivery there. You hit throttle and it goes. 0-60 mph in 2.9 seconds, 60' 1.6 seconds,. Makes peak HP at 7000 RPM. Have a 3500 stall converter and 3.89 rear gear.
Holley HP 750 cfm double pumper carb

aliceempire

iTrader: (14)

UltRoadWarrior9

I'm not arguing with you carb guys, lol. All I can say I do want control of the spark timing and fuel and still have plans to keep the 1227165 ecm, but maybe switch to a MAP ecm. I would like torque and horsepower to come in at under 6K RPMs maybe even 5K. I want the engine to last and it is meant for the street. I really like the sound of 534ft/lbs of torque and 450 HP. http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/eng...tpi-induction/

I'm looking at that stealth ram manifold for $383 from summit, but I'm also reading the FIRST build at https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/615127-official-first-fuel-injection-2.html.
The FIRST manifold is quite abit more @$1000, but does come with a throttle body as Orr noted early on.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

First tpi and afr 195 heads on a 383 will do very well

LiquidBlue

I think what Night rider327 is trying to say, dollar for dollar, a carb is the better value. I don't see any reason why a well built TPI system couldn't keep up, looks like its just going to be more expensive.

UltRoadWarrior9

Right, and I mean no disrespect to those who prefer carbs and maybe I misrepresented my thoughts on why I prefer TPI...

So after reading that full thread on the FIRST TPI manifold, it appears there was some sort of problem, a few people had, regarding the throttle body that came with the manifold. Apparently it was sticking and/or the linkage was cheap or something to that affect. At this point, I'm still favoring the FIRST TPI over Stealth Ram due to the large runner size.

UltRoadWarrior9

Funny you mention AFR heads. I was looking at one of the more conservative engine builds in the appendix of the SA Design "How to Build Big-Inch Chevy Small Blocks".
It's a 383ci, 4.030x3.75 dyno'd @474HP @5400RPM and 486ft-lb @4600. It uses AFR 210cc heads with 2.08/1.60 valves.
Production 350 iron block.
Scat steel crank.
Scat 5.7" I beam rods.
Standard oil pump.
1.5" roller rockers
36lb injectors
Edelbrock Pro-Flo EFI
1 3/4" headers
Comp Cams 280 hydraulic roller 236/243 @.050 and .552/.552 lift

Of course I'll be using a different block and EFI, but I think the rest may be a decent starting point? At least for pricing.

UltRoadWarrior9

Been doing some reading here:https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...zes-383-a.html

Many user suggestions for AFR 195. Parts/price list started for this engine build...

Also, rethinking 3.73 rear gears... Will be cheaper to keep the 3.23 ring/pinion gearset and just change the carrier from Auburn to Eaton TrueTrac before trying to kill the Auburn as originally planned.

UltRoadWarrior9

Regarding 195cc intake AFR heads, I have to make a choice...
Listing the 6 available AFR part #'s here for future reference. Will need to find a balanced rotating assembly and piston shall determine CR with one of these heads...:
1034
1036
1038
1040
1041
1095

aliceempire

iTrader: (14)

No argument taken. Just pointing out that you're turning down a carb for the wrong (and false) reasons. Build however you like. A FIRST 383 is a solid combo.


Also note the $383 HSR doesn't include regulator nor fuel rails along with no TB. Used is better deal. They're out there.


Don't get too caught up in HP and TQ numbers. Worry more about what you want it to do. (Idle rpm? Smooth/choppy Idle?, Peak RPM?, What RPMs will you spend the most time at?, Regular driver? Racer? Highway driving? Traffic driving? Octane available? Fuel mileage?) The power (and build) you need will follow that. Numbers (especially from magazines) don't always reflect that. A long runner design sometimes puts a cork on your build as opposed to benefits it. It does mine, but I'm running 3.08 gears and like a freeway cruise so the long runners are beautiful for me.